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Originally posted by cartoon:

but not until after we're dead, are facing Him, and it's too late for anyone to change anything.

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Originally posted by cartoon:

The Bible says that "without faith it's impossible to please God". I believe that's why He gives us a multitude of things which point toward His existence, but not the sort of thing that most people would embrace as "proof".

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Originally posted by cartoon:

He also promises that if we seek Him with all our hearts, He will be found. (He doesn't hide from those who genuinely seek Him on His terms -- truly repentant and needy of His grace.)

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Originally posted by cartoon:

Although, I imagine that most people wouldn't believe it even if God walked the earth in human form and did miraculous signs which no human could ever do.

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Originally posted by cartoon:

Oops. Wait a minute! He did do that, and most people, even faced with these miraculous things done right before their very eyes, still refused to believe.

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Originally posted by cartoon:

Really shows the hardness our stubborn, rebellious human hearts, doesn't it? (And I include myself in that category, as well.)

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Originally posted by cartoon:

In summary, I believe there are plenty of indicators throughout creation which point to a sovereign Creator (and also that He's spoken to us through His word, the Bible), but "proof" that would convince a skeptic (or actually any of us apart from His grace)? Probably not in this life.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

It is vanity that leads man to defend his or her religion. And vanity that leads him to deny the existence of god.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Buying a ticket to England is not proof that England exists; only proof that someone sold you a ticket there.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And I don’t think that it is anyone else’s business who I pray for or don’t pray for.

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"With any sufficiently advanced technology one can seem like a god."

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
It's a respect thing. You should respect the wishes of others. And if they don't want you to do something, then you should respect that and not do it. Especially when it is something that is so very optional like praying for them.

Respect and love for the fellow man. That's in the bible right?

But, what was that about vanity? Do you really think that because you are you that you have the right to do something for people against there wishes?

That's pure hubris.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
The problem with the statement "on His terms" is that when we seek, we seek on our own terms, in our own way. So, the only logical conclusion is that only if you believe already (if only subconsciously) you will find "Him." Otherwise, you won't find "Him"; you are damned.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Um, well, there is no actual documentation that shows that he did do these things aside from scripture.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Assuming that Jesus existed and what the bible said is true, how exactly did everyone back then see him do these things? After all, he only did these things for a few years and everyone walked back then. Thus, this is hardly mass distribution of proof that he was the son of god and everyone should believe.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, I really don't see how you get to the conclusion that people back then were really suborn because they all saw it. They didn't all see it.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Just a question, have you ever read anything by Bishop John Shelby Spong?

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just stated that I want to see the proof

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Just stating something doesn't make it true

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:


If God truly existed, and he gave us freewill, then he would not expose himself to such a degree that there would be incontrovertible proof that he is around.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seriously, why the game?
Or is it all really like in "Constantine"?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Meaningless response: Devils are so inconsiderate.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Hubris is telling someone not to practice their religion, simply because you don’t believe in their religion. The Bible says to pray for people as well. If my religion means that I should pray for people, as long as those prayers don’t interfere with your life then why do you get offended if I practice my religion? What makes you believe that I’m disrespectful if I choose not to stop believing the way you claim that I shouldn’t believe? How am I being disrespectful if I choose to not to stop practicing a religion that doesn’t affect you at all, simply because you said I should?

Think about that for a little while and then maybe you’ll understand this:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
[BICONSIDERATE?!?!

The only cool devil was Darkness from "Legend", the RL Devil is a PUNK, man, APUNK!!!!!!

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Originally posted by SameErtia:

Am I making any sense here?

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Let's say that your religion is real and praying will actually do something (Quite frankly, if you don't believe that praying will do something, then why are you doing it in the first place?) So, your actions will effect me now won't they?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

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This is all I'm saying. Respect other peoples wishes.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

So you’re superstitious. Well, that’s not my problem.

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:

But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

And bring the devil cult prayers on, I say. I can take any prayer you can dish out.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
And Finn, please, as with most other threads, this is not the place for levity; try to keep it on a little more serious level, huh?

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Sorry. I’m not usually like this.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, you're right. Whether I'm superstitious or not is not your problem. Then again, whether it is a problem for me or not, isn't my problem either. It's just the way I live.

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Present the truth of the gospel in a heartfelt manner, but don't become defensive if people reject it. People have been rejecting it from the dawn of time, and it would be presumptuous on our parts to think we can present it any better than even God's own son (who was rejected, too).

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:
But, heck, sometimes it definitely feels like it would just be easier if He just popped out from behind the clouds to explain something....but to this day I am still waiting for that...I hope you have better luck...

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He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I'm just going to sum up what you've written as you are not arguing from a historical perspective, but using the bible completely. You also seem to think that the bible is the only thing that needs to be argued from as you seem to be ignoring history completely.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.

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Originally posted by citizen:

He did, they got it on film in Monty Python and the search for the holy grail:

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So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place.

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ancient chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:
Althought it is pretty sweet to find out things like that just mentioned!!

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Originally posted by cartoon:
Yes, it certainly causes even believers to do a double-take and say, "Hey, what?!?!"

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Originally posted by cartoon:

I was not attempting to use the Bible to prove the Bible

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Originally posted by cartoon:

but that even when God has revealed Himself miraculously (by His own account)

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Originally posted by cartoon:

, most people still stubbornly, chose not to believe.

So,it's my conclusion that "evidence" will never convince the people who don't want to believe in the first place. That was the point I was trying to make

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Originally posted by cartoon:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
You have also failed to give me this proof that everyone keeps talking about.

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Well, I'm not "everyone" -- and I have stated from the start that it is highly unlikely that God's existence can be "proven". As such, I'm not obligated to prove something which I have maintained all along probably can't be subjectively proven.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by leelu7777:
yes there is proof its just people dont want to belive they want to be incontrol of everything instead of beliving in a higher being that loves us more that we can bear to the point of death. so they choose no to pay attenion or see that hes all around us and yes I know I sound crazy but this must be said.

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Actually the proof that you seem to be pointing to requires belief before it makes sense. The problem with this is that that is no proof at all.

Proof cannot be caste aside. It is proof after all.


But, instead of just stating things without anything to back up your claims (point of fact, this really irritates me), why not provide said proof?

If it really is proof, then we'll all be believers just by reading this thread. And no, I'm not being sarcastic. That is a logical conclusion.

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Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?



Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.

BarnStormer

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:

It is very counter-productive to argue from a historical perspective in the first place. The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...

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Originally posted by OmegaDark:

Even if history does prove the stories true or false, nothing will change the message or intention or truth.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Your chariot chasis example is a perfect example of this. To say that they are there and that implies something, or is evidence of something is rather fallacious. One must show that what one is getting at is at the very least the most probable solution before stating something like this.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

Since you have it all figured out Sigma, why not prove to all the dumbass religous types that God does not exist?

What proof do you have that your so certain?

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What gave you the impression that I "had everything figured out"?

And I'd appreciate a more civil tone in your reply, please.

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"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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The bibles intention was never to give you a historical account for the sake of history, but to give you something you can use for your life today, right now, here, the moment...

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Originally posted by cartoon:

Actually, I think about 3500 years ago there was a large naval vessel carrying a large number of chariots, which sunk in the middle of the Red Sea, sending all of the chariots to the bottom.
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

I know I'm not going to win this one, so I give up. We'll all just have to wait until we die to find out who's right. Either way, I don't have anything to worry about.

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Originally posted by cartoon:

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

I probably confused you with another poster in this thread. Sorry

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No problem. You've seen one cartoon, you've seen 'em all.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

This is from your first post on this thread.....

2) No they certainly cannot prove the existance of god in detail. If that were true, then we would all have been believers a long time ago.

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Originally posted by BarnStormer:

BTW, you'll get whatever I want to give in my reply. Just as you do. My posts are quite civil when compared to your history of rants and insults to anyone who disagrees with any of your opinions.

Do try to keep the self importance to a minimum.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Yeah, that's right. That's how they got there. I knew there had to be a non-supernatural reason.

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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
IMO, if god is as kind and generous as people say (and exists), then no-one that has lead as good life as they could has anything to worry about. I can't see and all benevolent god damning someone to an eternity of fire and brimestone just because they didn't believe for a very finite amount of time. That's just my opinion though

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Originally posted by rue:
The Gospel of Thomas (sometimes called the Heresy of Thomas, I think) is one of my two favorite religious writings. The other is the Lao Tzu.

The Gospel of Thomas doesn't have biographical notes (and then Jesus left the Sea of Galilee for the city of ...), it is filled with quotes.

"Jesus said ...

If those who lead you say to you, 'See the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

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Originally posted by Cartoon:
Actually, I was being silly with that one. You know -- trying to beat the skeptics to their "logical" explanation for the chariots being there at the bottom of the Red Sea.

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May I assume that you're getting at, the bible is along the lines of a "moral guide."

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if you work on Sunday, you will be put to death. Not exactly a statement that gives the warm fuzzies.

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IMO, all religions are the same, they just go about it in a different way.

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(Yes, I've used exageration in the above. By all, I mean vast majority that I've studied.)

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For instance, Christanity generally promots that if you don't do x, you'll go to Hell for all eternity.

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Many paths to the same objective

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"or true"?

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The vast majority of Christains I knew were evil backstabbing gossipy awfull awfull people

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Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.

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Originally posted by rue:
Something I've always wondered about is why Christians even refer to the Old Testament. Wasn't Jesus doing away with the old and creating a new from-the-ground-up compact with god ?

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Originally posted by leelu7777:
fine live in darkness live in emptiness and die go to a place where you will have every disease and every mental sickness ever created because a misconception. I dont know what happened to you to get that idea but he will never let you down it just takes some time for every thing to take place. he lived for you he died for you and this is how you repay him he died because the devil took the keys of heaven so no one could enter he had a chance to flee the garden of olives and leave the people that cursed him and let you burn he could have had a long and furfilled life but no he was beaten broken and nailed at a tree his children spit on him and he knew it would happen he could of shunned them left them to suffer in etrenal darkness but no he forgave the ones that cursed him and you say he dosent care ha as a christian I know him speak to him and feel his love and his peace and then to hear the words of hate twards him to think people would rather chose emptyness and pain over peace and true everlasting love because of past wrong doings fine you have a choice not mine who am I to tell you it your life

i'm in the world not of it

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Back in Biblical days, it was considered de rigeur to sacrifice your child, if the Voice of God told you to do so. Now, it's considered criminal, or possibly criminally insane. There's a lot in the Bible we prolly wouldn't want to follow. But as a document of religious myth, it's quite fascinating. I've never had time to read the Gospel of Thomas, but I heard its very different from what was eventually selected by the Church around 600 AD and might actually be closer to the original teachings.- Signy

*sigh* I really don't want this to be offensive, and if it is I appologize in advance... But, that was the silliest thing I have ever heard.... -OmegaDark

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(Gen 22 NIV) Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. {2} Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

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