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Originally posted by Crackers:
Well if you really want to get technical about it the Israelites are Mesopatamian. Abraham came from the ancient city of Ur - which translates in modern terms to ancient Iraq.

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Originally posted by rue:
LEELU7777, RIVER6213, JUGGLESGEESE, CARTOON, HAZE, DAX82, GIZMO, PIFFLE101, RUMFINATOR, CRACKERS, CAPTAINREYNOLDS

I was wondering what it means to you to be Christian?

So I'd appreciate your responses, but I'm also curious about specifics:

Do you worry about money?
Do you support war and the death penalty?
Do you love everyone? (enemies included)



Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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As a Christian, you shouldn't take insult when the world hates you, because they hated Jesus first, and he promised that you would be hated.

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Do you worry about money? i dont really know what you mean, but i feel this way about money: 10 percent of what you make should be given back to God, and the rest is yours to do with as you please

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Do you support war and the death penalty? yes, i do support war and the death penalty, because it says in the Bible "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
How about "thou shalt not kill" (unless of course god orders you to go over and genocide the nonbelievers)?

Here's question (though I'd like answers on the above as well), do you support the death penalty, but condemn abortion?

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
You can't cherry pick your holy text...

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So how do you know that your God is getting it? I've never seen a published account or donation service officially endorsed by the Deity, and what does he need with cash anyway? Being all powerful he can make tons of it with the snap of a finger. You're giving your money to frauds, who use your religion to line their pockets. Until they can produce God, and have him testify in court who his One True(TM) Banker is, you have no way of knowing

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Regarding your question about not "killing"...

The Hebrew* reads "murder", not "kill". There's a big difference.

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Originally posted by Crackers:
G'day Finn. Yes you are right about Abraham and his crew moving into Caanan. Didn't want to get to techbical sprouting off historical jargon.
Anyway good to make your aquantence.

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Originally posted by Imaleafonthewind:
Ah, this is a fan site, not a place to abuse believers and non believers. I am a christian and love firefly

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Originally posted by SignyM:
But then it seems to me that Jesus superceded the OT. He could have killed those who killed him- evildoers that they were- but he didn't. In fact, I don't know of any instance in the Bible where Jesus killed anyone, and only one instance where he got pissed off (at the money changers in the Temple). So as far as I can tell, the NEW Testament message is- love your neighbor as yourself. "Thou shall not kill" is just a small subset of loving your neighbor.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Whether he stated that he did or not, there is clearly a difference between Jesus' life and teaching versus "Thou shall not murder" and "an eye for an eye". Only a sophist* would fail to see that... let's not call it a "contradiction"... how about "new direction"?

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I would need to go into a thousand page response to answer all of your questions, as there are no simple, quote-from-one-verse answers to most of them. However, if you'd like serious answers, I'm willing to do so privately at your request -- again, to the best of my ability

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The Hebrew* reads "murder", not "kill". There's a big difference.

The Hebrew word incorrectly translated as "kill" in a lot of English translations of Exodus 20 is "ratsach". There are several different Hebrew words for "killing", including (but not limited to): "harag" another word for murder; "shachat" to kill as in animal sacrifices; "muwuth" to kill anything, etc.

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Murder is the intentional taking of innocent human life

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The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.
Slang. Something that is very uncomfortable, difficult, or hazardous: The rush hour traffic is murder.
A flock of crows.

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No argument there. But, one also can't take a single sentence out of the context of the whole of scripture. Some of the issues you mentioned are far to complex to explain away with a reference to a single passsage.

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2 Kings
2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. (2:23-24)

2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

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Leviticus
14:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
14:35 And he that owneth the house shall come and tell the priest, saying, It seemeth to me there is as it were a plague in the house:
14:36 Then the priest shall command that they empty the house, before the priest go into it to see the plague, that all that is in the house be not made unclean: and afterward the priest shall go in to see the house:
14:37 And he shall look on the plague, and, behold, if the plague be in the walls of the house with hollow strakes, greenish or reddish, which in sight are lower than the wall;
14:38 Then the priest shall go out of the house to the door of the house, and shut up the house seven days:
14:39 And the priest shall come again the seventh day, and shall look: and, behold, if the plague be spread in the walls of the house;
14:40 Then the priest shall command that they take away the stones in which the plague is, and they shall cast them into an unclean place without the city:
14:41 And he shall cause the house to be scraped within round about, and they shall pour out the dust that they scrape off without the city into an unclean place:
14:42 And they shall take other stones, and put them in the place of those stones; and he shall take other morter, and shall plaister the house.
14:43 And if the plague come again, and break out in the house, after that he hath taken away the stones, and after he hath scraped the house, and after it is plaistered;
14:44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in the house; it is unclean.
14:45 And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean place.
14:46 Moreover he that goeth into the house all the while that it is shut up shall be unclean until the even.
14:47 And he that lieth in the house shall wash his clothes; and he that eateth in the house shall wash his clothes.
14:48 And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
14:49 And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
14:50 And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water:
14:51 And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times:
14:52 And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird, and with the cedar wood, and with the hyssop, and with the scarlet:
14:53 But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.
14:54 This is the law for all manner of plague of leprosy, and scall,
14:55 And for the leprosy of a garment, and of a house,
14:56 And for a rising, and for a scab, and for a bright spot:
14:57 To teach when it is unclean, and when it is clean: this is the law of leprosy.

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11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

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Judges

1:19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

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I agree. This discussion was fun when it was about history, but the moralistic back and forth that some seem to want to discuss is not my cup of tea. Religion is what it is, but it is rarely debatable. If people wish to discuss socio-politics that’s one thing, but personally, I don’t think it should be use as a guise to ridicule Christians or any other religion.

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BTW, "Love your neighbor as yourself" is in OT (see Leviticus 19:18), so there's nothing new about it. Also, (as one of my commentaries puts it) the "eye for eye" business was designed to curb exaggerated revenge, and expressed a principle that punishment should be proportionate to the offense. Jesus's opposition (Mt. 5:38) was not to the premise, but to it's misuse -- not an abrogation of the principle of equivalence, but a call to temper its application in light of the love commandment, in the interests of the kingdom -- specifically that believers should not seek retaliation (which, although "lawful" for them to seek would not be in accordance with their witness for His glory on earth) (see Mt. 5:10-12).

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
Go for it, just remember you justified your opinion with one sentence on "eye for an eye"

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
True, but I'm sick of being corrected by people who don't know that, hence sticking with the "kill"

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
Dictionary(legal and websters) disagrees. Murder is UNLAWFUL killing. There is no qualifier for innocence.

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
I'm going to take that to mean "Never heard of any of that stuff before, better look it up"

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Originally posted by SwordofWhedon:
See, the problem is always that once a theist, whatever their bent, is proven wrong, then it becomes hate speech or ridicule, because it's made them uncomfortable.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So although it's "legal" to tit-for-tat, it's not what Jesus would "recommend"? I dunno- perhaps I got the NT wrong but my impression that loving your neighbor meant loving your neighbor: if he demand your cloak give him your shirt also, let he who is without sin, and so forth. I don't see how you can have two sets of rules. Either loving your neighbor is a commandment, or it's a "recommended practice"... something you do for bonus points.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Also, there are large parts of the OT I can't imagine Jesus condoning: offering virgin daughters to the crowd, for example.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So- what do you think of the Gospel of Thomas? Lacking a narrative structure, it is strictly about "And Jesus said..." But what Jesus said doesn't quite match up with what Jesus said in the synoptic Gospels.

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Okay. So the facts don't matter to you. The Bible says "murder", but "kill" suits your argument better, so heck with what the Bible says. I see.

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Firstly, it's God's (not Webster's) definition of murder that counts. Secondly, killing someone in war or a criminal via execution is not taking "innocent" life.

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Actually, I've heard of it all. I've been studying the Bible (English, Hebrew & Greek) from cover to cover for decades

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This forum is not the place for a point by point discussion with someone who obviously hasn't studied the Bible in context. I'm willing to do so privately with each and every individual in here who has sincere questions about it.

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I am not, however, willing to waste my time debating with people who don't want to know what it actually says, but only want to pick verses entirely out of context of the whole to accuse those of us who believe in it as being fools and idiots.

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My Lord commanded me to be ready to give an account of my faith whenever anyone asks. I have done that. He also commanded me that when the gospel is rejected in blatant unbelief, that I am to wipe the dust from my feet and move on. I am doing that here and now from those who are obviously too intelligent for me to be of any assistance, anyhow.

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