REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Wonders of Ancient Knowledge

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Thursday, May 25, 2006 06:20
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Friday, May 19, 2006 4:54 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important




Ancient Wonders of Knowledge


Hello all, and please come aboard, PirateJenny. Piratenews, you are welcome if you can avoid the terms 'gangsta govt' and 'jew.'


PirateJenny's post about alternative beliefs was interesting to me. It got me thinking about ancient wonders of knowledge.

The Baghdad (sp?) Battery is one such example. An apparent low-voltage battery.

I remember when I was in Philosophy class, I learned that an Ancient Greek philosopher had calculated the approximate circumference of the Earth by measuring shadows. That's some far out stuff.

What other surprising ancient knowledge are you guys aware of? Let's forget for a moment WHERE this knowledge came from (or we'll be arguing about aliens in no time) but concentrate instead on the knowledge itself.

I'm very interested to see what you guys reveal. I may learn a lot.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:15 AM

CITIZEN


It's been suggested that the Ancient Egyptians might have had electric lighting. There are wall paintings of the egyptians using devices that look a lot like light bulbs.

http://www.altarcheologie.nl/strange_technologies/Dendera%20-%20Electr
ic%20lighting%20in%20ancient%20Egypt_files/dendera3.htm

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_lights_fd1.htm

This website has lots of these sorts of stories:
http://www.world-mysteries.com

This one's good:
Celtic Cross
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 6:55 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



From the links, it looks like there are sound arguments disproving the electric light theory... Though the Baghdad battery itself is acknowledged to be an approximately half-volt battery device, possibly connected to electroplating. (Or accelerating an existing chemical plating process.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:04 AM

CITIZEN


Yes, it's only a theory and it's not at all well supported, really just a few images that look like electric lighting.

I find the Celtic cross thing the most interesting:
Quote:

With my experience of navigation as a qualified Yachtmaster, I turned my experimentation to discover if the ancient mariners could find latitude and longitude with the cross. The experiments conducted, confirmed that the ancients could find their position anywhere on the Earth within 3 nautical miles with a hand held device. This discovery may help to prove that it was possible for sailors such as the Phoenicians to have made regular trading contact with the Americas in pre Columbian times. It also may explain the mysterious navigation skills of the Polynesians. This discovery also helps support pioneers of the theory of ancient intercontinental travel such as Thor Heyderhal with his Kon Tiki and Ra expeditions.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:14 AM

TAYEATRA


One of the things that fascinated me as a child was ancient medicine or medicinal knowledge.

I realise that some of these things were accidental (egyptian eyeshadow for one) but I did hear that the ancient mesapotamians(sp?) knew a lot about the human body from their autopsy procedures.

They would submerge the body in treated water until the skin would peel off in layers. The muscles and major organs would stay relatively intact and allow them to study the human body.

It just used to amuse me to consider who worked that out? Why would they want to experiment with treated water to peel back skin? That isn't a particulary healthy hobby!

Anyway, that's one of my favorite historical random facts.

*****
Taya
*****
I'm going to S3!!!
(*Insert hysterical celebration dance here*)

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:19 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Cool topic!

I'm putting this in more as a placeholder and then I'll come back later with links. (eta: Okay, that was easier than I thought: http://www.cmog.org/index.asp?pageId=765 )

One of the American civilizations (I think it was the Aztecs) made blades by fracturing a particular igneous rock. Because of the physical properties of the rock the blades had a knife edge that was very very thin, thinner than anything we can manufacture today. It was anecdotally related, by one of the scientists who had discovered how the blades were manufactured, that a colleague had requested his open heart surgery be performed using a blade made in this manner (yeah, yeah, hard to back up this claim ) because of the minimal trauma involved. The sharper the blade the less damage to the tissue on either side of a cut and the easier to heal back together, if I remember correctly.

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 7:53 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I remember when I was in Philosophy class, I learned that an Ancient Greek philosopher had calculated the approximate circumference of the Earth by measuring shadows. That's some far out stuff.


Yeah, when I first heard that story about Eratosthenes I remember thinking what a cool dude he was . http://www.phys-astro.sonoma.edu/observatory/eratosthenes/

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 8:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


One invention of the ancient world that we often overlook is Science Fiction. I have read this material before, and seen television shows on it, but I was thankfully able to extract quotes from Citizen's website.



In India, ancient writings describe armies and gods using flying vehicles to wage war. Unlike other religious documents that satisfy themselves with nondescript 'fiery chariots,' the Indians concocted detailed descriptions of the flying machines and the mechanisms which drove them.

In the Sanskrit Samarangana Sutradhara, it is written:

"Strong and durable must the body of the Vimana be made, like a great flying bird of light material. Inside one must put the mercury engine with its iron heating apparatus underneath. By means of the power latent in the mecrcury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky. The movements of the Vimana are such that it can vertically ascend, vertically descend, move slanting forwards and backwards. With the help of the machines human beings can fly in the air and heavenly beings can come down to earth."

Another narrative in the ancient Mahabharate says:

"Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendour. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messaenger of death which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas."


Many credit Jules Verne as the father of science fiction, but I can't agree. These texts clearly deal with fantastical effects, but couch them in mechanical devices and weapons. Rather than simply suggest magic or divine might, they go into imagined details of construction and operation.

Kudos to the Ancient Indians for creating the first known science fiction writings. And just like many of Jules Verne's sci-fi machines, the devices imagined by these Ancient Indians came to exist in similar form.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 8:59 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"For the Aztecs, obsidian was not only almost ideally suited to all its practical uses, it also had roles in society that transcribed the purely practical. It is almost impossible to imagine such a civilization forsaking this magical, useful, and abundant glass in favor of its methodical development of common metals."

Cool link, Soupcatcher. I guess when nature provides technology for free, there's no need to develop it.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:20 AM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Cool link, Soupcatcher. I guess when nature provides technology for free, there's no need to develop it.


Yeah, the trick is all in the manufacturing. You have to apply a significant amount of force very accurately. You shear the rock along a flat plane and then have to shear the rock along a plane at a slight angle to the first. I found out about this at one of my manufacturing seminars where we had an archeologist demostrate. He took about ten minutes to line up the second strike and then slammed as hard as he could. You could easily shave the hair off your arm with the resulting sliver. It actually gave me a smoother shave than my multiple blade razor (and that's with hot pores and shaving gel).

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Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:41 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


I don't have a link, But I remember reading that bodies were found with evidence that the Mayans performed some basic brain surgery, complete with metal plates attacted to the skull....

long before any European culture

very cool





" Over and in, last call for sin
While everyone's lost, the battle is won
With all these things that I've done "

The Killers

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/killers/allthesethingsthativedone.html


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Saturday, May 20, 2006 9:49 PM

SOUPCATCHER


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
I find the Celtic cross thing the most interesting:
Quote:

With my experience of navigation as a qualified Yachtmaster, I turned my experimentation to discover if the ancient mariners could find latitude and longitude with the cross. The experiments conducted, confirmed that the ancients could find their position anywhere on the Earth within 3 nautical miles with a hand held device. This discovery may help to prove that it was possible for sailors such as the Phoenicians to have made regular trading contact with the Americas in pre Columbian times. It also may explain the mysterious navigation skills of the Polynesians. This discovery also helps support pioneers of the theory of ancient intercontinental travel such as Thor Heyderhal with his Kon Tiki and Ra expeditions.
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_5.htm





That was an interesting read on the Celtic cross. The one thing I don't buy is the attempt to stretch to the Polynesians. I have a book by Harold Gatty (who was fascinating in his own right and a pretty amazing navigator from the second wave of aviation - he was Wiley Post's navigator on the record breaking around the world flight) originally titled, "Nature is Your Guide: How to Find Your Way on Land and Sea by Observing Nature" and he makes a compelling argument that the spread of Polynesians throughout the Pacific followed migratory bird paths. There's really only a chapter on that, and it's not the main topic of the book, but it worked for me . At least in comparison to Thor Heyderhal who, if I'm not mistaken, is really the only one who thinks the Polynesians came from South America and went west rather than from Indonesia and went east.

* edited to add: And, Citizen, thanks for that link. The website rocks! I have a feeling I could spend hours and hours on the site. Right now I'm loving the page on the Piri Reis map of Antarctica's coastline that was based on earlier maps and drawn in 1513 (even though the coastline hasn't been visible since 4000 BC).

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:46 AM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Ancient Wonders of Knowledge


Hello all, and please come aboard, PirateJenny. Piratenews, you are welcome if you can avoid the terms 'gangsta govt' and 'jew.'


PirateJenny's post about alternative beliefs was interesting to me. It got me thinking about ancient wonders of knowledge.

The Baghdad (sp?) Battery is one such example. An apparent low-voltage battery.

I remember when I was in Philosophy class, I learned that an Ancient Greek philosopher had calculated the approximate circumference of the Earth by measuring shadows. That's some far out stuff.

What other surprising ancient knowledge are you guys aware of? Let's forget for a moment WHERE this knowledge came from (or we'll be arguing about aliens in no time) but concentrate instead on the knowledge itself.

I'm very interested to see what you guys reveal. I may learn a lot.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



How about the Egyptian Pyramids, even with all of our technology today we still can't build one, and the pyramids are much older then orginally thought, if I'm correct 7,000 years older then originally thought.

The pyrimid of Chepos is nearly 5 hundred feet tall and covers 13 acres at its base and and is built of stones weighing an average 21/2 tons each the stones were cut so perfect that even today in some places you can't put a peice of paper between them, and can you imagine how it looked because it was covered in white lime stone and its peak was made out of gold, even today you can see the Great pyrimid from space, also the four sides of the pyrimid precisely face 4 compass points,north, south , east, and west. in addition to that it is situated less then 5 miles south of the 13th paralle, it can therefore be used as a referance point to section off the entire planet into a 3 dimentional grid of 30-60- and 90 degree angles with the north and south poles equator and center of earth as referance points, which means that you can navigate by air using the pyramid.

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:54 AM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

...In India, ancient writings describe armies and gods using flying vehicles to wage war. Unlike other religious documents that satisfy themselves with nondescript 'fiery chariots,' the Indians concocted detailed descriptions of the flying machines and the mechanisms which drove them.


so does the summarians they flew in shems,, but actually the Gods of India was the same pantheon of Gods in summarian the names was changed etc, anyway I digress because its off topic. and I'm not suppose to go there

but about the science fiction, does anyone remember watching Aliens the movie with sigourney Weaver, and at the beginning she was talking on a phone that showed her picture to the other person they could see eachother , well that movie came out in like 1987 or 88 and I thought it was so cool, and now look we have cell phones with picture, back then that was science fiction, now its reality

anything that can be imagined can be done.


btw, Baghdad, Mespotamia , thats all Sumaria

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 3:41 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateJenny:
How about the Egyptian Pyramids, even with all of our technology today we still can't build one, and the pyramids are much older then orginally thought, if I'm correct 7,000 years older then originally thought.

Actually we could build them with the technology of today. We don't really know how they did it (though there's been successful scale experiments) but I'd have to say they had whips.

Massive massive whips.
Quote:

which means that you can navigate by air using the pyramid.
That doesn't mean that's why they built the pyramids or why they were laid out in the way they were.
Quote:

but about the science fiction, does anyone remember watching Aliens the movie with sigourney Weaver, and at the beginning she was talking on a phone that showed her picture to the other person they could see eachother , well that movie came out in like 1987 or 88 and I thought it was so cool, and now look we have cell phones with picture, back then that was science fiction, now its reality
Aliens is one of my favourite films, but the video phone was hardly Science Fiction in the late 80's, more like science fact:
1956 - The first picture phone system is built as a test system by AT&T.
1964 - AT&T presents the Picturephone (or Mod1) at the World’s Fair, people line up to make a video call to Disneyland in Anaheim, California, where people also line up to call the World’s Fair. The first person to use the Picturephone is Herbert Hoover.
1970 - Toshiba develops the world's first colour video phone.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Sunday, May 21, 2006 4:31 AM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I don't have a link, But I remember reading that bodies were found with evidence that the Mayans performed some basic brain surgery, complete with metal plates attacted to the skull....

long before any European culture

very cool



The Incas did this... but way weirder than that, is the re-shaping of the human skull... (link below has pics) http://members.cox.net/ancient-sites/inca/day2_Lima.htm

So... in fact, reality also influences science fiction...

Ok, so the “Coneheads” was supposed to be a comedy, not sci-fi, my bad...

I saw a show saying that the ancient Indian "sky machines" were derived from meteor and/or comet sightings... maybe...

I believe the human intellect is so fascinated with the complexities of nature and the evident limitations of our understanding of it, that we develop these inventive science fiction visions which only hope to conquer our shortcomings. This level of consciousness deepens our symbiotic relationship between man and nature.

Oh, did I mention I LUV sci-fi…


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Sunday, May 21, 2006 8:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I just had to jump in here. If you go to Fine Science Tools (finescience.com) you'll find they have knapped obsidian scalpels. These extremely sharp blades make fine cuts that leave little scar tissue. They are suggested as a low cost alternative to diamond scalpels. The downside is that the edge is so fine they can be used only once. Lateral force will break off small pieces and dull the blade. They are perfectly suited to eye surgery.

As a child, our family had a rock that was brought to us as a curiosity. For a couple of years everyone took a whack at it (literally) from time to time, and succeeded in only chipping the hammer head off. I was finally able to break off a 1" (2.54cm) chip. It has a conchoidal shape, and one curved edge that was so fine I could see through the quartz grains. When I foolishly tested the edge on my finger (I was young) I got a deep cut that I never felt even though I was watching closely. It was that sharp. That got me interested enough to follow up on related stories to this day.

The stone was not flint.

However, recently there were those two Australian miners who were rescued. When the rescuers started digging, they ran into a layer of rock that was the hardest rock (not mineral) known. Thats' why it took them a week to reach the miners. The rock was metamorphic quartzite, and that's what I suspect the rock was that we had.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:45 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important




Hey all,

I just became aware of some 'undersea pyramids' near Okinawa, Japan.

Has anyone heard of these? I only found one reference to them and it was from 1995. One would suppose that we've learned more by now? The article I read said the pyramids were 10,000 years old.

Does anyone know if they were determined to be natural or man-made?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, May 22, 2006 3:03 PM

PDCHARLES

What happened? He see your face?


http://www.lauralee.com/japan.htm

I have seen this before.. but it slips me...not sure if this is a trustworhty site... http://www.morien-institute.org/yonaguni.html

I saw that CNN covered it... and discovery had a show on it.. still looking...

I do know the oldest pottery in the world has been found in Japan this age and older...

..and some shopping http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=73307&browseCategory
Id=&location=&parentcatid=&subcatid
=


Wha?!?... *sniff sniff* OH.... IM ON FIRE!!!

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Monday, May 22, 2006 6:19 PM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
These texts clearly deal with fantastical effects, but couch them in mechanical devices and weapons. Rather than simply suggest magic or divine might, they go into imagined details of construction and operation.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



Actually, it sounds like a description of a modern conventional/nuclear war, which is why there are a lot of UFO fanatics saying that it is a record of an invasion. I too think it bears an uncanny resemblance to modern warfare (a little too much to be coincidence in my opinion), but I will wait until there is more evidence before I make up my mind.

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 7:00 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Originally posted by citizen:









Quote:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by PirateJenny:
How about the Egyptian Pyramids, even with all of our technology today we still can't build one, and the pyramids are much older then orginally thought, if I'm correct 7,000 years older then originally thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually we could build them with the technology of today. We don't really know how they did it (though there's been successful scale experiments) but I'd have to say they had whips.

Massive massive whips.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
which means that you can navigate by air using the pyramid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That doesn't mean that's why they built the pyramids or why they were laid out in the way they were.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but about the science fiction, does anyone remember watching Aliens the movie with sigourney Weaver, and at the beginning she was talking on a phone that showed her picture to the other person they could see eachother , well that movie came out in like 1987 or 88 and I thought it was so cool, and now look we have cell phones with picture, back then that was science fiction, now its reality
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aliens is one of my favourite films, but the video phone was hardly Science Fiction in the late 80's, more like science fact:
1956 - The first picture phone system is built as a test system by AT&T.
1964 - AT&T presents the Picturephone (or Mod1) at the World’s Fair, people line up to make a video call to Disneyland in Anaheim, California, where people also line up to call the World’s Fair. The first person to use the Picturephone is Herbert Hoover.
1970 - Toshiba develops the world's first colour video phone.








From everything i've heard we can't build them, not even with our current technology, perhaps I'm wrong it wouldn't be the 1rst time

my whole point about the phone in Aliens, is that it was thought of as science fiction, not that it couldn't be built it just all seemed futuristic but my point is, science fiction often times becomes reality. things like airplanes would have been science fiction a hundred or more years ago and now its reality.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 7:32 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I certainly don't want to get into arguments over whether or not ancient wonders were made by aliens. I'm worried that would polarize the contributors to this thread.

I will say this much. I think that we often sorely diminish human potential. In our modern age, we have been accustomed to seeing machines multiply the power of mankind (and horses) to such a degree that we have trouble imagining thousands of people spending tens of thousands of hours dedicated to a menial, back-breaking chore.

The truth, I have found, is often surprising. A dedicated man can accomplish amazing things if he is prepared to dedicate his life to a task. Imagine a dedicated army of men... a dedicated nation.

It wasn't so long ago that the fledgeling nation of the United States embarked on a series of amazing engineering projects. The Hoover Dam, for instance. Does anyone doubt that we could do it again? Does anyone doubt that we could do it in twice the time for ten times the money with our more modern machinery?

It is so hard for us to imagine legions of workers doing things the hard way, that it actually becomes easier to imagine a supreme agency performing amazing wonders. Aliens, Gods, whatever. It is so hard to imagine our ancestors, who we regard as primitive, to be intelligent. We have trouble envisioning geniuses in our past.

Somehow people from 5,000 years ago are more alien to us than actual aliens, lending credence to the possibility of aliens, and not humans, as the creators of all that is wonderous in our pasts.

I am prepared to consider that alien influence may in fact have been present. But I also hope we can all consider that human beings are amazing creatures, especially when dedicated.

Chariots of the Gods? Perhaps. But please also consider Coral Castle, modern evidence of human cunning and veracity.

http://www.parascope.com/en/articles/coralCastle.htm

They say he did it for love. I can believe that.

--Anthony




"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:42 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateJenny:
my whole point about the phone in Aliens, is that it was thought of as science fiction, not that it couldn't be built it just all seemed futuristic but my point is, science fiction often times becomes reality. things like airplanes would have been science fiction a hundred or more years ago and now its reality.

And mine was that sometimes things aren't Science Fiction, they're mundane, no matter what one may think .



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 5:45 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I certainly don't want to get into arguments over whether or not ancient wonders were made by aliens.



There are those who believe that life here began out there far across the Universe with tribes of humans who may have been the fore fathers of the Egyptians or the Mayans or the Toltecs. They may have been the Architects of the Great Pyramids, or the lost civilizations of Lemuria or Atlantis....Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive somewhere beyond the Heavens..............

H


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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:33 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by PirateJenny:
my whole point about the phone in Aliens, is that it was thought of as science fiction, not that it couldn't be built it just all seemed futuristic but my point is, science fiction often times becomes reality. things like airplanes would have been science fiction a hundred or more years ago and now its reality.

And mine was that sometimes things aren't Science Fiction, they're mundane, no matter what one may think .



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.



Just because something exists does not make it mundane. Sure, the video-phone was invented long before it showed up in Aliens. But it certainly wasn't a widely-used piece of equipment back then. Come to think of it, last I checked, I didn't see a lot of real-time video phones being used today.

Computers existed when Star Trek first aired, but it was science fiction to think you could have one small enough to keep in your pocket.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:40 AM

ARCLIGHT


"...he makes a compelling argument that the spread of Polynesians throughout the Pacific followed migratory bird paths."

What's really amazing about this is think of how fast them sumbitches had to paddling to keep up with a flock of flying birds

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:37 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"The truth, I have found, is often surprising. A dedicated man can accomplish amazing things if he is prepared to dedicate his life to a task. Imagine a dedicated army of men... a dedicated nation."

Cities have been found in Egypt where workers lived who built the pyramids. From what the researchers gathered, being picked to build a pyramid was considered a holy gift. The skeletons of those workers showed severe deformities from years of carrying heavy loads or being stooped over grinding blocks and obelisks out of the quarries. There is clear evidence they were built by mere men who were willing to sactifice their health and lives.

PS There is also no evidence they were built by slaves. Chemical and physical analysis of the bones showed the workers were well-nourished.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:54 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Just because something exists does not make it mundane. Sure, the video-phone was invented long before it showed up in Aliens. But it certainly wasn't a widely-used piece of equipment back then. Come to think of it, last I checked, I didn't see a lot of real-time video phones being used today.

Plenty of stuff in Sci-Fi is mundane and everyday, but because it's on a spaceship people say 'wow'. The general point was, was that just because pyramids are big doesn't make their construction any less 'mundane' in the sense that there doesn't have to be Alien super beings levitating blocks of stone, all there has to be is a lot of people and some really big whips.

Video conferencing has been around for years, it's not a new thing and it wasn't new then. It was mundane in the sense it wasn't fantastical.

People don't generally use it because they can get along just fine without, it's every bit as mundane as a regular telephone, and most people don't use it because there's no point to it.
Quote:

Computers existed when Star Trek first aired, but it was science fiction to think you could have one small enough to keep in your pocket.
Star Trek didn't have computers you could keep in your pocket when it first aired. The Computer in the Original Series and indeed all series as far as I can see, is based on a main server system with dumb terminals. Pretty 1960's'ish that. The Science Fiction is merely in bestowing more processing power on the machines than currently possible, which is something done in just about every type of fiction that has a computer in it.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:56 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

PS There is also no evidence they were built by slaves. Chemical and physical analysis of the bones showed the workers were well-nourished.
Pyramiders Beer...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:13 PM

CYBERSNARK


Absolute favourite bit of ancient "technology":

Dogon astronomical knowledge
http://www.students.a.csbsju.edu/aeeversman/astronomy.htm
http://www.unmuseum.org/siriusb.htm
http://www.litsote.com/Old-African-Astronomy-5007769.html

Then there's my own theory (pieced together from several sources, most of them off-line) about the Ark of the Covenant being an Atlantean power generator:

Dozens of mythologies suggest the existence of an ancient serpent-worshipping cult that was marginalized as "Evil" (the serpent in Eden, Apophis, Medusa & her sisters. . .). In almost all cases, this serpent-cult was associated with powerful and/or forbidden knowledge (The Tree of Knowledge, the asp and cobra as Pharaonic symbols, Medusa's association with the Aegis, worn by Athena --Goddess of Wisdom. . .).

Legends from civilizations surrounding the Atlantic ocean tell of refugees coming ashore from a lost, highly-advanced Pyramid-building civilization --one old enough to be the serpent-worshippers.

Plato references the Atlantis myth as coming via Egypt, famous for its pyramids.

No bodies or treasure have been found in the Temple of Cheops (archeologists write this off as looters), nor are there hieroglyphics inside the King's or Queen's chambers (archeologists tend to ignore this). The so-called "sarcophagus" is of inconsistent dimensions for standard Egyptian sarcophagi (Archeologists write this off as a mistake, ignoring the otherwise geometrically-perfect structure).

Moses defeated Pharaoh's wizards (literally "Wise Men" who turned their staffs into snakes, symbolically suggesting the ancient, Forbidden Knowledge) by defeating them at their own game (creating a bigger serpent [suggesting a stronger grasp of the Ancient Knowledge] which ate theirs [suggesting an absorbtion of their Knowledge, adding it to his own]).

After promising Moses safe passage (a good political out --to have washed his hands of the whole mess), Pharaoh sent his entire army after the Hebrew slaves. Almost as if he suddenly found out he'd been betrayed/robbed.

After escaping to Mt. Sinai and withdrawing "to speak to God," Moses commissioned the Ark of the Covenant (which would protect the Faithful from the dangerous powers of the Ark's contents), delivering some very specific dimensions --dimensions which match those of the "sarcophagus" in the Giza temple. He also delivered a very strict set of rituals and procedures --procedures that have been identified by modern experts as evocative of radiation/haz-mat procedures.

Psychic and Atlantis-expert Edgar Cayce reports visions of Atlanteans mining and using "power crystals," capable of generating large amounts of energy, but which had to be carefully contained. . .


(To think I studied all this for a fanfic. . .)

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"Star Trek didn't have computers you could keep in your pocket when it first aired. The Computer in the Original Series and indeed all series as far as I can see, is based on a main server system with dumb terminals. Pretty 1960's'ish that. The Science Fiction is merely in bestowing more processing power on the machines than currently possible, which is something done in just about every type of fiction that has a computer in it."

Star Trek TOS did in fact have portable computers in it. Or, perhaps more accurately, portable electronic devices that could only work if they were computerized. This includes the Tricorder, the hand-held Universal Translator, and something resembling a PDA upon which Kirk signed his orders. These devices were not strictly pocket sized, but were satchel or lap-top sized. Frequently they were seen to act independently of the main computer, indicating they had seperate computing capacity.

As to the subject of slaves in Egypt...

As more and more evidence comes to light, it becomes less and less apparent that slaves were used for large scale construction projects in Ancient Egypt. Rather, it seems likely that construction was a duty given to a portion of the citizenry at large. Of course, I expect that if you didn't do what the pharoah wanted, you'd be executed. On the other hand, that is true of most citizenry who live under a king's (or emperor's) rule.

There is even increasing (if controversial) evidence that the Isrealites freed in the story of Moses were originally a mercenary arm of the Egyptian military.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:28 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hey Cybersnark,

I have believed for a long time that the ark was a power generating device. I felt that the reason it was deadly to touch the ark, and the reason the priests who dealt with it wore special sandals and used poles, was for insulative purposes against threat of electrical discharge.

But of course I don't have a shred of evidence to support it.

As to lost ancient civilizations...

I vaguely remember a snippet from a History Channel special that was provocative.

Some Spanish conquistadores stopped at a small island (presumably to resupply.) There they were greeted by natives. Over time, the message was conveyed by the natives that they were not natives, but rather the descendants of refugees from an island disaster. They believed the Spanish might be from their long lost culture, and brought forth documents hoping that the Spanish could read them. The Spanish could not, in fact, read them. After the natives produced no gold, they were slaughtered, their documents burned, and the Spanish moved on. (This was SOP for the Spanish at the time.)

I wish I could remember more about this History Channel special. The two things I thought of when I saw it were:

1) Damn Spanish! Why'd you have to destroy those documents?!
And
2) I wonder what age-old island civilization those people belonged to...

Of course, we have a preponderance of island cities buried or drowned in various catastrophes, and that only serves to muddy the waters.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


On the Egyptian pyramids thing, there's some new and different thinking going around on how they were built. There's a book I heard about - don't remember who wrote it or what it's called, but it came out in the last year or so - that basically chronicles all the great civilizations, and traces their spread and influence based on WHAT THEY DRANK. Radical idea, right? It seems a bit prepostrous, but the author made a pretty good case of it when he was describing it.

We know the Egyptians brewed beer. Apparently, they brewed quite a lot of it, and got good at it. So the author's premise is that, far from being slaves to the Pharoahs, the pyramid builders were volunteers, and were paid well, in beer. He backs it up with stone "chit sheets", showing various payments to various workers, and so on. Anyway, it got my attention and gave me a new insight into one little part of the pyramids' history and construction.

Guess it just goes to show that we're never so smart - especially about the past - that we can't learn something new...

Mike

"Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right."
- Laurens van der Post

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 3:46 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I googled nommos and found this:

Nommos
Whatever you're looking for
you can get it on eBay.
www.eBay.com




Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 12:06 AM

RPLACKETT


I have to say my favourite bits of aincient tech are from the aincient greek period... the mechanical celestial computer, the parabolic mirror, a basic steam engine, the design for a gas compressor... those guys really REALLY knew their stuff. If they had coupled it to the drive for profit/efficiency then we could have had the industrial revolution a thousand years early. I suppose culture has a lot to do with that though, these were generally philasophical curios rather than industrial machienery. Interesting what-ifs though.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 8:22 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Star Trek TOS did in fact have portable computers in it. Or, perhaps more accurately, portable electronic devices that could only work if they were computerized. This includes the Tricorder, the hand-held Universal Translator, and something resembling a PDA upon which Kirk signed his orders. These devices were not strictly pocket sized, but were satchel or lap-top sized. Frequently they were seen to act independently of the main computer, indicating they had seperate computing capacity.

Actually now you're moving in to the realm of Science Fact being used to support Science Fiction. Androids in Star Trek couldn't function without computers, but they weren't computers and you can't have a non-human sized android. Science Fact says you can't have an android without a computer, Science Fiction says "they're androids, not computers, get over it" .

However:
Tricorders (according to cannon material) worked with the ships computer, as an external scanning device that used the ships computer to do the major processing. Also the original Tricorders were a scanning device, there's no real need for any circuitry that could be considered as a computer in the TOS version.

They had remote computing in the Sixties as well.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 9:18 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important



"Tricorders (according to cannon material) worked with the ships computer, as an external scanning device that used the ships computer to do the major processing. Also the original Tricorders were a scanning device, there's no real need for any circuitry that could be considered as a computer in the TOS version."

I have to disagree with you here, Citizen. The Tricorders were sometimes used when there was no communications and/or no ship available. This makes the ship's computer a non-element in their operation.

As for human-shaped androids being the only computerized entities shown, you might be neglecting the Nomad probe, smaller than a human and not shaped like one. Of course, that might be more accurately described as a 'machine intelligence' so we'll ignore it.

Finally, If you want to discount the tricorder as a dumb scanning device without a computer element, you are certainly free to do so. The fact that it scanned objects and identified their constituent molecular composition indicates to me that the tricorders, independent of the ship's computer, were 'computing' their data. Analysis was performed by these little devices. So you can call it 'scanning electronics that analyze substances and report on their composition' if you want. I'll just call it a portable computer coupled to a scanner and move on with my day.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 3:39 PM

CYBERSNARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Of course, we have a preponderance of island cities buried or drowned in various catastrophes, and that only serves to muddy the waters.

I just wanted to admire this line one more time.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 6:20 AM

CITIZEN


Anthony:
A Microscope can take in light and we can then observe cells with it. A scanning device can take in huge amounts of data and present it without ever once needing to perform computations on that data.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
"I had a rose named after me and I was very flattered. But I was not pleased to read the description in the catalog: 'No good in a bed, but fine against a wall'." -- Eleanor Roosevelt.

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