Browncoats that served, of know someone in Iraq right now... by chrisisall

Never served myself, but all the men and some of the women in my family have. I have a nephew overe there right now. He is 18 years old. He spends his days searching out IED's. Not exactly what I think he should be doing. I pray (and believe me God has apoplexy when he hears me) that he and all the people with him make it home.

I am against the war - but my thoughts and prayers are always with those who serve.

I often wish people like that beatch Ann Coulter would put their "money where their mouth is",so to speak, and don a uniform.

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Monday, June 26, 2006 5:11 AM

TRISTAN

Thank you for sharing, Chrisisall.
I try to thank every military person I meet for doing what they do. I know my words don't really mean all that much, but if you have the chance to, please thank your friend from me for doing what he is doing.
My belief is to support them and thank them for their service. They always deserve our respect.

______________________________________

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Monday, June 26, 2006 6:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

deadlock victim my *ss!

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Monday, June 26, 2006 6:18 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I know several- mostly people that I work with. We took up a collection for them to make up for the shortfall of what they weren't getting. Thanks to a buddy who was in the first Gulf war (gee, why do we always have wars in that region? I'm sure it has nothing to do with oil) he told us what a soldier would really appreciate: a Game Boy, several packs of cards, some cigarettes, a lot of wet wipes, some really tasty food, and thoughts from home.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Monday, June 26, 2006 3:50 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

May your friend make it home safely.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:54 AM

Hey, thanks, Geez, and to all of them...

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:16 AM

I echo the sentiments of support. However:

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I worry that he might be put into a position where he might be forced to disobey orders

This is a real problem. I mean then minute they get off the plane they are forced to kill and eat an Iraqi child (with BBQ sauce)...so he's probably already lost. I'm just glad he's joined the one organization in the world where disobeying orders is encouraged in an envirolment of open democratic cooperation.

Quote:

Just throwin' it out there for any who are interested, or any who think liberals are cowards who won't fight for their country.

Not all liberals are cowards. I suspect that the proportion of coward/non-coward is not related to political affiliation.

I'm reading a book and in the current chapter the flaming bleeding heart liberals just commited an act of great courage bordering on a leap of faith in their cause and their ability to create a new world of peace, equality, and harmony with the enviroment. Its merely their stupidity and failure to recognize reality that is causing them to be slaughtered without mercy by the uneducated savages they were trying to help.

Thats liberalism. Getting slaughtered in the name of progress.

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I mean then minute they get off the plane they are forced to kill and eat an Iraqi child

You know what I mean; you get ordered to fire into a group of unarmed peeps, or to 'interrogate' a prisoner a little too aggressively- but that's not the point of your post, and I'm through trying to be nice to you. You've chosen your path, and it's one that leaves humanity by the wayside in favour of righteous brutality.
Sod off.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You know what I mean; you get ordered to fire into a group of unarmed peeps,

and you refuse or hesitate to consider the moral implications of what you are doing and in that time the unarmed civilians are revealed to in fact be human shields for a suicide bomber or perhaps a group of insurrgents pretending to be unarmed civilians in the hopes of getting close enough to grab a live American so they can practice their head chopping skills on TV.

Quote:

or to 'interrogate' a prisoner a little too aggressively

a prisoner who may know the location of the nuclear bomb in downtown Los Angelos...sometimes we all need to ask ourselves 'what would Jack Bauer do?'

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
and I'm through trying to be nice to you.

Help! The liberal is threatening me! He's gonna be mean to me! Please...

What are you going to do? Raise my taxes? Leak secrets to the enemy? Hug a tree? Perhaps a hunger strike? Hold a rally and whine about the mean man who disagrees with you? Oh! I know call me a facist, a fool, uneducated, racist, sexist, warmonger...anything to divorce yourself from having to engage in a dialogue your bankrupt idealogy can't win.

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:49 AM

You're listing EXCEPTIONS, dumass, not the rule.
Anything to be 'right', just like a scared lawyer.

Truth doesn't matter with peeps like yourself.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:56 AM

ZISKER

I hope you're buddy stays safe.

I've had a lot of friends go over and come back and go over again. I did my best to get as active of a role as possible, being female, but my cadre bungled my paper work so if I ever do go I'll be a Fobbit. The unit I'm heading to is going over there three months before I arrive, so we'll see. I hope I go, I want to go - it's that whole "Well, all my friends went and if I didn't do my part I'd feel like a shit bag for the rest of my life".

And that's coming from a liberal. Who hears way too many conservatives offer lip service but then discourage their kids from joining.

It's good to hear that you're friend is also maintaining what sounds like a healthy attitude. Most of the soldiers I know have voiced very similar sentiments. Just keep sending postcards, emails, letters and what not. Those are some of the best things to get no matter where you are in the Army/whatever service.

If you can't do something smart, do something right.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Good Lord Hero! Since when are our soldiers interrogating people who've planted nuclear bombs in downtown LA? I've always had you pegged as a Jack Bauer-head. I think you need to take a vacation from watching "24". Try to keep at least ONE foot in the real world!

(Oh and BTW, you made it quite plain in your other post that the Iraq invasion had nothing to do with WMD, or with anti-American terrorism. Some day you should really try to compare your various rationalizations with each other. You'll find that for the most part they're self-cancelling.)

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Good Lord Hero! Since when are our soldiers interrogating people who've planted nuclear bombs in downtown LA? I've always had you pegged as a Jack Bauer-head. I think you need to take a vacation from watching "24". Try to keep at least ONE foot in the real world!

Hey, I was all against torture until I started watching '24'. I realized that if its ok to torture someone to prevent a WMD from being used on an American city (it would depend on the City...LA, New York-ok, San Fran-ehh, how big a bomb are we talking...), then the question is not whether torture is justified or not, just under what circumstances. Besides, United Stated policy says torture IS not condoned under any circumstances.

(What does "is" mean again?)

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:39 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I realized that if its ok to torture someone to prevent a WMD from being used on an American city (it would depend on the City...LA, New York-ok, San Fran-ehh, how big a bomb are we talking...), then the question is not whether torture is justified or not, just under what circumstances

yeah yeah. And now in the real world: what does that have to do with Iraq?

Your laser-like focus never ceases to amaze me.

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 8:49 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I really wonder about Zero. What DOES he get out of his one-man freak show?

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:09 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I dunno. I wonder how he does in court? DO you suppose they keep him there as a - ahem- "court" jester?

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:17 AM

Hero - thought you might need this

lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl) KEY

ADJECTIVE:

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.

Archaic Permissible or appropriate for a person of free birth; befitting a lady or gentleman.
Obsolete Morally unrestrained; licentious.

Please use the term correctly. It isn't a derrogatory label - as your unenlightened intellect seems to think and while we are at it - Search Dictionary:

Email this page to a friend

< herniate Hero >

he·ro (hîr) KEY

NOUN:
pl. he·roes
In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
A person noted for special achievement in a particular field:

now place nice or go away. F

with my crew, f

with me. I am tired of your attempts at wit. If you have something legitimate to say, and can do it with out being rude or obnoxious - then please do. Otherwise shut your yap.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 9:29 AM

You GO, Hot Mom!

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Hero - thought you might need this

lib·er·al (lbr-l, lbrl) KEY
Obsolete Morally unrestrained; licentious.

he·ro (hîr) KEY
celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose,

If you have something legitimate to say, and can do it with out being rude or obnoxious - then please do. Otherwise shut your yap.

I think your definition of liberal lacks something. The term in modern times also carries a political distinction which is based upon current politcial values. While I am a conservative, I do not, for example, believe in the divine right of kings or that the world is flat. Such "liberal" notions as popular soveriegnty and private property are now hallmarks of the modern conservative movement. Liberals and conservatives both seek to constrain some things and free others, its in the distinction that our differences lie and the labels apply. Hey that kind of poetical.

And as for saying something legitimate, I, unlike liberals, will not ask you to speak my truth and only my truth, confounding dissenters to the midden heap of intellectual obscurity or better yet, silenced by force of will, law, or arms.

Thank you for your contribution, I respectfully disagree.

And liberals also lack a sense of humor.

Funny, from the definitions you provided, I still prefer heroes to liberals...

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:22 AM

What a load of crap. Liberal means what liberal means. Not what you "decide" it means.

I am really sick and tired of idiots, Republicans, Facists and anyone else telling me what I am, what I think and what I believe. You don't know the first f:censaored: thing about what it is to be Liberal. Notice I did not say A Liberal. It is not a noun. It is an adjective. What you are looking for is Democrat. That is a noun, that is a title.

As for not having a sense of humor - who the hell are you? Do you have insight into the minds of everyone in the world? I think not.

I believe EVERYONE has a right to their own opinion I do not, however, think that everyone has the right to foist it onto all and sundry. I don't thump a bible and I don't carry around a placard that decries my political beliefs to everyone I pass.

I find it very amusing that conservatives are constantly telling the world that liberals (a) have no sense of humor and are (b) crazy and (c) can't have an argument without name calling when the loudest voices in the conservative Republican party are hate mongers like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter.

You can speak your truth. But speak the truth. Don't call names and make remarks that demean the other person. It shows how little you trully are.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:21 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Hero
You realy should bow out before you make yourself look an even bigger Dick than you already have.
Here was your chance to make an impression that could have changed a lot of peoples opinions of you but instead you decided to PN yourself in the foot, and in the "I'm a Dick" stakes you are now just about neck and neck with the Pirate.
Plus your refusal to believe in the Divine Right of Kings is just plain ridiculous.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 11:37 AM

TRISTAN

I am always appalled by how these threads degenerate into school-yard fights. The thread was going along smoothly, thanking in our own way these men and women fighting for us, and Hero comes along and mentions a BBQ. While I shudder to mention this, there are some points he makes that I at least give nodding agreement to, and yet the way they are presented makes me ashamed. And then, the attacks start. Then, drag it away from the topic so you can drag out the soapbox. It's not just in this thread, I have seen it before. Again, you have some valid points, but your choice of time and place to present them leave much to be desired. Leave this thread to it's semi-original concept of taking a moment to think about those embroiled in combat.

______________________________________

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
I believe EVERYONE has a right to their own opinion I do not, however, think that everyone has the right to foist it onto all and sundry.

If you really believed that you'd keep it to yourself.

Quote:

You can speak your truth. But speak the truth. Don't call names and make remarks that demean the other person. It shows how little you trully are.

For example:

Quote:

I am really sick and tired of idiots, Republicans, Facists...

Poor liberals, can't even live by their own philosophy. (Shakes head in pity.)

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Plus your refusal to believe in the Divine Right of Kings is just plain ridiculous.

Finally, a good line. Made me smile...even a mild chuckle.

As for PN, everybody agrees he makes big with the crazy talk. Thats bad. Me, the jist of my argument is: Bush, good. Liberals, bad. If thats an opinion you disagree with, then fine, have at me. But you folk seem long on insults and short on argument. So I make with the funny but don't change my opinion. Liberals don't like it when you disagree. Seen it in court, classrooms, and right here right now.

There's no our point of you, your point of view, its just "your a dick" or "shut up" and you can't win with that...me I win just by playin along cause in the end I accept your notions for what they are and they don't change mine except to make me more sure (although, in some rare instances, my opinion has changed from discussion, education, or some current event...its the open mind part of being a good debater, part of why I don't often lose in court).

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
The thread was going along smoothly, thanking in our own way these men and women fighting for us, and Hero comes along and mentions a BBQ.

I echoed the sentiment of the original poster, but challenged his political editorializing with some of my own.

Quote:

I worry that he might be put into a position where he might be forced to disobey orders...I worry that he might be hurt or killed. I hate that tiny, mean minds made it necessary for him to be there.

Never the less I find myself in agreement with your overall sentiment. How about a thread specifically limited to expressions of support with all politcial comment banned?

I pledge to not engage in political debate on such a thread unless its started by someone making a liberal comment about the character and conduct of the war. I bet you can't get the liberals to go along with that.

H

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 1:54 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Well, I thought that's what this thread was all about. So why not just try to keep it that way?

---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:01 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

its just "your a dick" or "shut up"

Gee, I don't know about that.

In a different thread I posted (in part) this:

Quote:
So your argument breaks down like this:

1) it was to keep (non-existant) WMDs from the hands of the
2) non-cooperative parties in order to
3) destroy the (resurgent and very healthy) Taliban and al Qaeda (who still have their leadership and funding intact, and are coincidentally bright enough to have a strategy but so stupid they're diverted by Iraq)
4) so the US can keep up 'pressure' on and be distracted by it's own effing decoy.

Brilliant.

I thought it was objective, and actually responded to the points you were trying to make. Yet you failed to engage. Could it be that you don't actually debate when one is offered because you can't?

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:38 PM

PLATINUMMONGOOSE

Ok, I just have one thing to add to this. I'm not going to try to feed the debate on war vs. anti-war, liberal vs. conservative, Democrat vs. Republican, or any of that political stuff that I find either very dull or very frightening. I'm not. (For the record I'm vehemently anti-war and anti-Bush, but like I said that's so very much beside the point I'm about to try to make.)

Hero, get off the high horse. As much as you'd like to think so, you're not the center of the universe. Gallileo proved you wrong many years ago.

But what I would really like to do in this post is not demean you, Hero. I would like to thank you. There's a little quote thingy beneath your name.

Quote:
"Ultimately a hero is a man who would argue with the gods, and so awakens devils to contest his vision."- Norman Mailer (1963)

So, since you're obviously calling yourself a Hero, and since you're obviously arguing with many of us liberal-types, you are quite clearly (by your definition, remember) calling us gods. That makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. Thank you.

Oh, and I notice the second part of your quote might imply that we are then devils, but since "contest" can mean either to strive for or against, it can be taken either way. Just wanted to shoot down that argument before it began. Like I said, I don't want to start anything. Just sending my thanks for the compliment.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:00 PM

FREMDFIRMA

A whole damned lot of my friends are over there, and a couple of them came back in pieces already, one of them from clearing a field of unexploded US cluster bombs with two trainees cause we're so damned short of EOD techs over there, given what tends to happen to them - and it *does* happen, sooner or later... that was our mess he was cleanin up, folks.

I actually copied some of this thread to one of them (he was interested) and lemme quote Casper to ya, and just to make SURE it's completely understood here, he's talkin about you, Hero.

"The fact that we're probably gonna die for people like that makes me wanna puke right now."

Even the guys not in the sandbox are horrified by the situation, like the radio tech who was ordered to strip all of the radio equipment from another units vehicles and send it on up the chain to replace combat-lossed stuff...

Now imagine this guy watching in horror as the unit his crew of techs just stripped of all their vital communications gear (and in all but the most critical cases, that's a deadline on the vehicle, No-Go, capisce ?) get deployed and shipped over there without ANY communication gear but the radio sets they managed to grab from WalMart when the orders came down ?

I don't blame our boys completely for slaughtering anything in their gunsights, but nor do I respect that loss of discipline - however, the responsibility for that goes up the chain of command, right in the laps of the chair polishing armchair quarterbacks back over here in their nice, safe, air conditioned bunkers.

There's not even anything I *can* say to some of them to comfort em, about the only hope I can offer is more smokes, candy and batteries for the gameboy... and the monthly Maxim, a rather popular mens magazine that isn't on the prohibited list.
You wanna pitch in ? here - http://anysoldier.com/index.cfm

I help with the refurbished computers end of it to some degree, but mostly I do a *LOT* of unofficial 'readjustment counselling' for these guys (something the service pointedly does NOT offer) when they run smack into the wall trying to re-adjust to civilian life and come to terms with actions they've taken in a military environment when viewed from a civilian perspective.

You send a troop some smokes and jerky, he's not gonna care one whit what your political affiliation is, nor whether you believe he should be there or not, cause he's dealing with the more important issue of not coming home in a bodybag... all he's gonna care is that someone gave a damn enough to send HIM something to make his day that much better, instead of a cheapass chinese magnet on the back of a gasguzzler he prolly won't live to even see.

There's how to put yer money where your mouth is.
-Frem

PS - oh yes, so far, they love firefly, the few that have been on a secure station long enough to make use of a dvd player, so if you wanna spring for a copy, by all means....

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:14 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

dbl post

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:14 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem,

How can I help those over there and those coming back?

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 11:50 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Plus your refusal to believe in the Divine Right of Kings is just plain ridiculous.

Finally, a good line. Made me smile...even a mild chuckle.

As for PN, everybody agrees he makes big with the crazy talk. Thats bad. Me, the jist of my argument is: Bush, good. Liberals, bad. If thats an opinion you disagree with, then fine, have at me. But you folk seem long on insults and short on argument. So I make with the funny but don't change my opinion. Liberals don't like it when you disagree. Seen it in court, classrooms, and right here right now.

There's no our point of you, your point of view, its just "your a dick" or "shut up" and you can't win with that...me I win just by playin along cause in the end I accept your notions for what they are and they don't change mine except to make me more sure (although, in some rare instances, my opinion has changed from discussion, education, or some current event...its the open mind part of being a good debater, part of why I don't often lose in court).

H

O.K. The "your a Dick" part was short sighted of me but heres the thing; Every post you make sounds a little more like PN, not because their crazy but because their self-centred. That last line about how you seldom lose in court could have come straight out of the PN "I'm a winner" handbook.
And by the way, there are political denominations other than just "Liberal". In the U.K "liberal" has a very different meaning to the broad Tar-brush that you are giving it, and I would hazard a guess that most of the people that you call (by implication) Liberals in your posts are'nt anything of the kind.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 1:39 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
me I win just by playin along cause in the end I accept your notions for what they are and they don't change mine except to make me more sure

Funny, because every time you post with nothing even bordering on an argument then qualify it by saying something like "your a liberal which means your evil and have no right to an opinion" while saying it's Liberals that make those distinctions I get the same feeling.

It's funny how you want to 'stop' Liberals for not thinking in 'Hero approved' ways, then accuse other people who are just speaking their minds of being against freedom of speech.

Go get 'em Hero, anyone who doesn't think in a way you've rubber stamped is 'evil' and 'attacking the moral fabric of the nation' and 'against freedom of speech'. Now there's a word for those kinds of beliefs...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:26 PM

SASSALICIOUS

A friend of the family (I actually think he's some sort of cousin) is over there right now with the SD National Guard. I can't remember everything he asked for for Christmas, but it was all stuff he needed to do his job, including a compass. A COMPASS FOR GOD'S SAKE!

I respect people who sign up for the military a lot. I will not bash them for fighting when they come back. I will tear apart our government for fighting (as I see it) a pointless war. I will tear apart our government for sending our troops to fight without proper equipment.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:38 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Frem- your post just makes me wanna cry.

I've got great O-NEG blood. Any way to donate to the cause?

I'll be pitching in some more too. In all the bitching and griping I do about Bush it's easy to lose track of the guys out there. Sometimes I forget... I vow never to forget again. Tell your buddies that we're thinking of them. And thanks for the link to "anysoldier"
---------------------------------
Don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:59 PM

ZISKER

To learn about donating blood straight to the army, visit: http://www.militaryblood.dod.mil/

'cause Red Cross charges . . .

They're also short since most US soldiers aren't eligible for donation due to deployments. Somebody ought to organize a Browncoat blood drive ;)

If you can't do something smart, do something right.

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
That last line about how you seldom lose in court could have come straight out of the PN "I'm a winner" handbook.

Your only saying that to satisfy your gangsta-govt german-knight-of-the-britsh-empire-pedophiling-masters like War Criminal Queen Elizabeth. Get real, nobody talks like PN.

Quote:

And by the way, there are political denominations other than just "Liberal". In the U.K "liberal" has a very different meaning to the broad Tar-brush that you are giving it

What? You mean the political distinctions of the word change its definition over both time and distance. Don't let the "Troll Killing Mom" hear that or she'll come after you next. Although I'm glad to see someone else agreeing with the points I made arguing "liberal" interpretations of the word liberal.

H

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Funny, because every time you post with nothing even bordering on an argument then qualify it by saying something like "your a liberal which means your evil and have no right to an opinion"

Actually what I'm really saying is that "your a liberal which means your opinion is wrong."

If you were'nt so evil you wouldn't have gotten that so wrong.

Liberals, not evil, just wrong. Me I'm conservative and I find that makes me all kinds a right.

H

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Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA

>>How can I help those over there and those coming back?

Not much beyond sending care packages, and if you don't believe they should be there, trying to yank your representatives chain about gettin em out of there.

As for when they come back - that's not easy, cause a lot of things a soldier does, that a soldier HAS to do, is ugly, ugly business and not easily explained to civvies - unconditional understanding and forgiveness go a long way, but a lot of these guys need to learn to forgive themselves, and deal with what they've been through.. for that, only predictable, comforting, consistant physical and emotional 'safety' will allow them to deal with it in their own time, and mostly time is what it takes, and a 'safe' environment with a minimum of surprises.

>>Frem- your post just makes me wanna cry.

With all due respect, for Dave (the EOD guy) tears are not appropriate.

And no, I did not attend his funeral, that would have been insulting to watch his memorial service given by clergy of a belief he honestly despised for most of his adult life.

His beliefs were rather nordic in fashion, which is pretty understandable, and a belief held to one degree or another by a lot of military folk, although he never got around to dropping that bombshell on his more traditional parents... we used to joke that the Valkyrie that came to claim him would need a mop and bucket, and it's a bittersweet laugh, true, but he went with no regrets, I am sure.

I toasted his ascension to Valhalla privately with a half tumbler of cheap whiskey, as he would have wanted me to.

Oh, and Hero.. you demean yourself further everytime you open your mouth, please stop while you've some small bit of dignity left.

This site needs a usenet-type killfile more every day.

-Frem

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 5:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
As for when they come back - that's not easy, cause a lot of things a soldier does, that a soldier HAS to do, is ugly, ugly business and not easily explained to civvies - unconditional understanding and forgiveness go a long way, but a lot of these guys need to learn to forgive themselves, and deal with what they've been through.

I can't agree more. That war changes a man is not only a cliche...its true. I fully support efforts and programs to provide assistance to veterans. In my own practice I have found myself giving veterans what assistance my position as a prosecutor allows me to give. In one example a local fella got killed in Iraq a couple months back and his buddies came in for the funeral (this was in the town next door), afterwards they were at a bar in my City and got into it with some local idiots who took offense to their choice of music (patriotic) and their toasting their comrade. They were arrested and charged with assault (cause they kicked some serious ass). I had them pay the damages to to bar, plead to a minor disorderly conduct, and called it square. Took some crap for it (especially when I made the local fellas take the same deal) but you can't please everybody and sometimes a fella deserves to kick a little ass.

Quote:

I toasted his ascension to Valhalla privately with a half tumbler of cheap whiskey, as he would have wanted me to.

I understand this too. What you describe as a nordic belief is one I think alot of vets share, although they may not even realize it.

Quote:

Oh, and Hero.. you demean yourself further everytime you open your mouth, please stop while you've some small bit of dignity left.

Now where would the fun in that be? How could you be so morally superior without someone to piss and moan about? My opinions may be a minority on this board...at least among the active posters (I've gotten some private notes from folk who just lurk whose cause I champion) but without a vocal minority, the majority cannot function properly. Its one of the fundamental ideas that this country was built on. John Stuart Mill I think...have to reread 'On Liberty'...

H

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 6:12 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Actually what I'm really saying is that "your a liberal which means your opinion is wrong."

If you were'nt so evil you wouldn't have gotten that so wrong.

Liberals, not evil, just wrong. Me I'm conservative and I find that makes me all kinds a right.

Oh silly me, I must of misinterpreted, when you said Liberals are all evil or want to be evil I thought you were saying that Liberals are all evil or want to be evil, where oh where could I have got that idea?

Liberals eh, always wrong, like when Liberal movements were the ones fighting for civil rights and the vote for all, not just for the Conservative land owners they were wrong then too huh. Yep Liberals shouldn't have a voice eh Hero, you Conservatives with your direct line to god should just get rid of them, the world would be a much better place.

Hero world, the world where a Liberal is shot on sight, a World Hero can believe in.

I see how it works: all conservatives are evil scum who hate civil rights and want to turn all poor people in to property, slaves if you will: and by that I mean they are wrong.

Like I said, the day you come up with an actual cogent argument is the day Satan will be going to work on a snowplow, talking to you is like talking to PirateNews, both utterly wrong and utterly insane, and more interested in calling the other side evil than actually making sense.

And hey, calling me evil, thats a good one coming from a lawyer, a man who's made it his lifes work to feed of of the misery of others...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
And as you know, these are open forums, you're able to come and listen to what I have to say.

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 6:13 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Thanks for the blood donation link. The Red Cross manages to snag me every 3-5 months, but I'll up my donations and redirect about half. And HELL YEAH!! to the Browncoat blood drive! GREAT IDEA!

How do we make that happen????

---------------------------------
Hell yeah!

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 6:27 AM

Actually, Hero, oldenglanddry is right.

And as for you. I have to agree with Citizen, you are beginning to sound like PN.

What you fail to understand is that I support anyones right to free speech. Doesn't mean I have to listen or agree. I also support my right to tell you that what you are saying makes you sound like an ass.

And your "I always win in court" statements bring up an interesting point - ALL the successful attorneys that I know - have WAAAAY too much to do to waste time posting on a site like this. Things that make you go hmmmmmm.

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 7:32 AM

ZISKER

Hm - well, I'm going to be pretty busy until mid-Augustwith training, but after that I'll be free. If you're interested in really planning one - maybe they could bring a mobile center to a convention like Dragon*Con?

I'm sure something could be worked out - PM me if you're really interested in trying to do something. People here seemed pretty cool with donating DVDs to the troops, maybe this is something that might fly.

If you can't do something smart, do something right.

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 8:56 AM

TRISTAN

FMF, you may be looking for a quote from Voltaire..."I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Everyone has the right to speak (in this case) type what they want. I may not like 90% of the posts, but I have the "right" not to have to read them...ignore the idiots, if you will. I find it better that way.

______________________________________

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:25 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
That last line about how you seldom lose in court could have come straight out of the PN "I'm a winner" handbook.

Your only saying that to satisfy your gangsta-govt german-knight-of-the-britsh-empire-pedophiling-masters like War Criminal Queen Elizabeth. Get real, nobody talks like PN.
Quote:

And by the way, there are political denominations other than just "Liberal". In the U.K "liberal" has a very different meaning to the broad Tar-brush that you are giving it

What? You mean the political distinctions of the word change its definition over both time and distance. Don't let the "Troll Killing Mom" hear that or she'll come after you next. Although I'm glad to see someone else agreeing with the points I made arguing "liberal" interpretations of the word liberal.

H

See, now in England a "Conservative" is a Gin-soaked, Fox-hunting, Public-school Monarchist who almost certainly uses prostitutes and has probably had at least one Gay affair.
If that is your interpretation of being "all kinds of right" well.. good luck to you.

It takes all sorts.

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:25 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Iraq War Ends Silently for One American Soldier
by Dexter Filkins

RAMADI, Iraq - A soldier was dead, and it was time for him to go home.

The doors to the little morgue swung open, and six soldiers stepped outside carrying a long black bag zippered at the top.

A wounded soldier on a stretcher was among those saluting Sgt. Terry Michael Lisk, who died in Ramadi.

About 60 soldiers were waiting to say goodbye. They had gathered in the sand outside this morgue at Camp Ramadi, an Army base in Anbar Province, now the most lethal of Iraqi places.

Inside the bag was Sgt. Terry Michael Lisk, 26, of Zion, Ill., killed a few hours before.

In the darkness, the bag was barely visible. A line of blue chemical lights marked the way to the landing strip not far away.

Everyone saluted, even the wounded man on a stretcher. No one said a word.

Sergeant Lisk had been standing near an intersection in downtown Ramadi on Monday morning when a 120-millimeter mortar shell, fired by guerrillas, landed about 30 paces away. The exploding shell flung a chunk of steel into the right side of his chest just beneath his arm. He stopped breathing and died a few minutes later.

The pallbearers lifted Sergeant Lisk into the back of an ambulance, a truck marked by a large red cross, and fell in with the others walking silently behind it as it crept through the sand toward the landing zone. The blue lights showed the way.

From a distance came the sound of a helicopter.

Death comes often to the soldiers and marines who are fighting in Anbar Province, which is roughly the size of Louisiana and is the most intractable region in Iraq. Almost every day, an American soldier is killed somewhere in Anbar — in Ramadi, in Haditha, in Falluja, by a sniper, by a roadside bomb, or as with Sergeant Lisk, by a mortar shell. In the first 27 days of June, 27 soldiers and marines were killed here. In small ways, the military tries to ensure that individual soldiers like Sergeant Lisk are not forgotten in the plenitude of death.

One way is to say goodbye to the body of a fallen comrade as it leaves for the United States. Here in Anbar, American bodies are taken first by helicopter to Camp Anaconda, the big logistical base north of Baghdad, and then on to the United States. Most helicopter traffic in Anbar, for security reasons, takes place at night. Hence the darkness.

In the minutes after the mortar shell exploded, everyone hoped that Sergeant Lisk would live. Although he was not breathing, the medics got to him right away, and the hospital was not far.

"What's his name?" asked Col. Sean MacFarland, the commander of the 4,000-soldier First Brigade.

"Lisk, sir," someone replied.

"If he can be saved, they'll save him," said Colonel MacFarland, who had been only a few yards away in an armored personnel carrier when the mortar shell landed.

About 10 minutes later, the word came.

"He's dead," Colonel MacFarland said.

Whenever a soldier dies, in Iraq or anywhere else, a wave of uneasiness — fear, revulsion, guilt, sadness — ripples through the survivors. It could be felt on Monday, even when the fighting was still going on.

"He was my best friend," Specialist Allan Sammons said, his lower lip shaking. "That's all I can say. I'm kind of shaken up."

Another soldier asked, "You want to take a break?"

Specialist Sammons said, "I'll be fine," his lip still shaking.

Sergeant Lisk's friends and superiors recalled a man who had risen from a hard childhood to become someone whom they counted on for cheer in a grim and uncertain place.

"He was a special kid," Specialist Sammons said. "He came from a broken home. I think he was divorced. I'm worried that it might be hard to find someone."

He said he would write a letter to the family — to whom it was not clear just yet.

Hours later, at the landing zone at Camp Ramadi, the helicopter descended. Without lights, in the darkness, it was just a grayish glow. With its engines still whirring, it lowered its back door.

The six soldiers walked out to the chopper and lifted Sergeant Lisk's body into it. The door went back up. The helicopter flew away.

The soldiers saluted a final time.

In the darkness, as the sound of the helicopter faded, Colonel MacFarland addressed his soldiers.

"I don't know if this war is worth the life of Terry Lisk, or 10 soldiers, or 2,500 soldiers like him," Colonel MacFarland told his forces. "What I do know is that he did not die alone. He was surrounded by friends.

"A Greek philosopher said that only the dead have seen the end of war," the colonel said. "Only Terry Lisk has seen the end of this war."

The soldiers turned and walked back to their barracks in the darkness. No one said a word.

Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

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Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:29 PM