Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you... by DukKati

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Please please don't tell me this is supposed to be a reasoned argument.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 1:41 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

"Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you..."

...you'd blow up every house in your neighborhood because they just might be providing cover for the rocket shooter?

...you'd cut all the roads out of your neighborhood, then warn your neighbors that if they didn't leave, it was their fault you blew them up?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 3:38 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Wow, it appears we have a consensus about as rare as a planetary alignment, but we appear to have one.

Citizen, who's mostly a progressive type dude, has prettymuch called you a moron.

Geeze, who's mostly a traditional type dude, has also named you as a twit.

And now you have an Anarchist calling you an idiot.

I'd say it's unanimous, perhaps you *MIGHT* wish at this time to re-examine your argument ?
I doubt you will, because I smell troll, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to stand in perfect accord with three so-divergent beliefs for once.

-Frem

*PS - Note: Since 'liberal' and 'conservative' in our day and era have been so meaning-distorted as to be mere labels and useless as descriptions (as so effectively pointed out in another thread), I've taken the liberty of using the terms progressive and traditional, which seem appropriate, neutral and less offensive, I suggest others might consider adopting said policy.

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 4:04 PM

CHRISISALL

Did TheRightStuff just get a hold of a dictionary or something?

Jihad Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 4:07 PM

TRISTAN

I am with Fred here in stating my surprise that the first three posts, from a normally divergent-thinking group of individuals, are in agreement in calling this poster an idiot (in so many words)...this must be a first.

And if this is in fact TRS, all I can say is wow, boy got good with that dictionary!

______________________________________

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 4:08 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I couldn't resist the opportunity to stand in perfect accord with three so-divergent beliefs for once.

LOLChrisisall

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 4:17 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
this must be a first.

DRINKS ALL AROUND!

Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 4:20 PM

BURMA!

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/llama.php
-try it out, I dare you

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

I'm so into Firefly, my butt glows in the dark.

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 4:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

TRISTAN wrote:

Quote:
And if this is in fact TRS, all I can say is wow, boy got good with that dictionary!

Well... not that good.

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 5:52 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Um............. I'd be dead.

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Sunday, August 6, 2006 6:05 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
but I couldn't resist the opportunity to stand in perfect accord with three so-divergent beliefs for once.

ROFL. Ah, Frem, that was priceless.

I checked out Jihad Watch. Troll or not, the website's for real. THAT scares me. People really believe this shit. (And yes, in this case I am being clearly biased and obtusely un-open-minded. This is fear mongering shit.) And the website's author just wrote a best-selling book.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

-------
"Maybe she's a lazy hooker. They can't all have hearts of gold and good work ethics." -- Jaye in Wonderfalls

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Monday, August 7, 2006 12:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA

What's even more amusing, in a distorted funhouse mirror kinda way, CTS... is that many of these so-called pro-jihad websites (complete with atrociously laughable arabic obviously clobbered together by someone who never learned it as a first language) are based off american servers mostly owned by lobbying firms and/or defense contractors.

Just more scaremongering really, while I am sure there are some die-hard jihadist types, human nature bein what it is, they're comparatively few in all honesty, most folk just wanna get by, pay the bills, have dinner and get some nookie, and occassionally shoot off their mouth politically when they're in their cups.... and that's about it.

So in essence you have a tiny margin of folks over there who'd like us to be scared, and a slightly less tiny margin of folks over here who'd like us to be scared, and the general populace of planet earth not being bombed at the moment too damn busy making ends meet to give a damn, and more concerned about the power bill than a suitcase bomb.

And that's always the way it's gonna be.

Terrorism is a long, loooong way at the bottom of my list of things to worry about, somewhere under "where's the fekkin laundry detergent?" but probably above "Damn, we're low on coffee filters".

I suppose in order to be scared, one would first have to care.

-Frem

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Monday, August 7, 2006 1:01 AM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

true, after all, the core of "scared" is "care"

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Monday, August 7, 2006 2:27 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

The links are'nt exactly rock solid info and one of them is three years old. So lets have some more reliable sources before we start another crusade shall we?

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Monday, August 7, 2006 3:22 AM

TRISTAN

Kwicko wrote:

Quote:
Well... not that good.

Compared to some of the things TRS wrote, this is doctorate thesis-level!

______________________________________

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I'd say it's unanimous, perhaps you *MIGHT* wish at this time to re-examine your argument ?

I noticed that he didn't re-examine the argument, so I thought I'd help out a bit.

His argument is that if you are attacked, by your neighbor or by someone living in his house, you have the right to defend yourself. In this case Isreal is making war on the Hezbos.

Your argument is that since the relatively innocent Lebanese are being injured and killed in this conflict, then Isreal is doing the wrong thing.

He fails to offer an alternative means of waging war that will eliminate the collateral damage to the innocent peace loving Lebanese (after all their most famous soldier wore a dress in Korea).

You fail to offer an alternative that stops the attacks on Isreal.

In short that makes you all idiots.

The truth is this war isn't about Isreal bombing Lebanon. Its about the Hezbos hiding their weapons and making their attacks from civilian locations. If they want to wage their war on Isreal, ok, but they need to pick a nice open location in the wildeness away from anybody who doesn't want to get involved. By failing to do this they are responsible for not only the attacks on Isreal, but the death of civilians in Lebanon as well.

Now for my solution: the UN could mandate the Hezbos disarms (they did that), send in an international force (did that too) to help the Lebanese Army gain control of the region and enforce the disarmament resoltuon (now there's an idea).

That works so much better then ordering the disarmament and then sending people to watch while Iranian ships unload ten thousand rockets under your very nose...I'm just sayin.

H

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Monday, August 7, 2006 6:57 AM

SIGMANUNKI

@Hero:

You'd have a point IF the response from Israel was an appropriate one. But, killing the amount of people they did in response to what Hezbo did, was certainly NOT even handed.

Now, about you "solution". The US and a few others is currently trying to do similar things in Iraq. How's that going for you guys? Basically, don't tell others to do things that your not capable of doing after YEARS of trying. Especially since the US has called the UN useless on several ocassions.

In other words, the US calls the UN useless, pathetic, can't do a thing, etc (I believe you have agreed with this assessment). Then something happens and you are telling us that the UN should do something that the US is not capable of doing after YEARS?!?!

Congratulations, you just entered the same level of crazy as Dukkati.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, August 7, 2006 7:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Congratulations, you just entered the same level of crazy as Dukkati.

Entered?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 7:40 AM

nah nah nah nah nah, you're all coming at this sideways, if someone was shooting rockets into your house, and in all probability trying to kill you rather then, say, clean out your fridge, what would you, personally, do?

me, i think i'd start off with hiding, don't tend to keep the hardware for responding to attack-by-rocket, unless they were to come within range of my kitchen knives like.

then i'd probably progress to skulling a sizable quantity of whiskey to try and both numb the pain of my recently blown off limbs and kill off the mind-numbing terror i imagine i'd be feeling at this point.

actually come to think of it, i reckon if someone was shooting rockets into my house i'd probably start with dying, then work my way outwards, so to speak >.<

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Monday, August 7, 2006 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
But, killing the amount of people they did in response to what Hezbo did, was certainly NOT even handed.

Ok. Pick a number. Then Isreal will stop. Then the next time the Hezbos attack, we'll line up and execute that many randomly chosen innocent Lebonese alongside an equally proportional number of Hezbo soldiers. And then we'll do it again. And again. And again.

The trick here is that the Hezbos have no reason to stop. They are doing God's work after all. And the trade of a few Hezbo soldiers and however many Lebanese civilians for however many dead Jews is a good trade for them because they lack a vested interest in both Lebanon and their own soldiers.

Absolute military defeat is all they really understand...its the understanding born of their own death. That means war and wars aint pretty.

Quote:

Now, about you "solution". The US and a few others is currently trying to do similar things in Iraq. How's that going for you guys? Basically, don't tell others to do things that your not capable of doing after YEARS of trying. Especially since the US has called the UN useless on several ocassions.

And your alternative? (Silence...crickets...)

Surrender. Tribute. Perhaps the a few million dead jews will convince them to leave us alone. You, on your knees begging for peace and oil...signing away Isreal and giving a bunch of fascists a veto on American policy at home and around the world. These may not be the things you want, but this is what you are buying with your coin of appeasment. So anxious and afraid to take a stand that you end up standing for nothing and getting nothing in the end.

My way aint pretty, but I didn't start it, Isreal didn't start it, but we need to be damn sure that we end it on our terms, cause their terms are death for Isreal and American hegemony. I don't think thats a world you'd like any better then what we've got now. If it is, then we have met the enemy and its you. And you know how we treat the enemy.

H

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Monday, August 7, 2006 8:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
i think i'd start off with hiding, don't tend to keep the hardware for responding to attack-by-rocket

I can get you a good interest rate on a slightly used Patriot missile battery. Bad credit, no credit come on down.

H

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Monday, August 7, 2006 8:37 AM

Quote:
And your alternative? (Silence...crickets...)

Not starting the fight in the first place, they must have real good crystal balls in Israel, since they started defending themselves against those rocket attacks before they even happened.

It's almost like Hezbollah is the one reacting to what Israel is doing innit...

Quote:
giving a bunch of fascists a veto on American policy at home and around the world.

Now now Hero you ain't in power yet, keep your brand of fascism to yourself.

Quote:
My way aint pretty, but I didn't start it, Isreal didn't start it, but we need to be damn sure that we end it on our terms, cause their terms are death for Israel and American hegemony.

The dirty Arabs started it, they were born for f

ks sake, born without Hero’s prior approval!

Then, and get this right, they didn’t die! I mean f

k how much more do you want? Israel began the bombing first because it’s far seers saw the future!

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 8:48 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you...

I would spend my last seconds wondering why someone was doing it in the first place; then, their attempts would be successful, and I would die. Case closed.

And, I'll add this: I have no solutions for anyone. But, then again, it's not my job. My job is to go to school and get good grades so I can graduate - from high school, mind you. So, forgive me if I'm not a military mastermind.

My only other offering is that the situation in the Middle East is such a horrible, tragic situation made no better by cultural and religious tensions that I fear there will never be a long-term solution.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Monday, August 7, 2006 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Not starting the fight in the first place, they must have real good crystal balls in Israel, since they started defending themselves against those rocket attacks before they even happened.

"July 12, 2006- Hezbollah fires a pair of rockets into northern Israel from southern Lebanon (note: towards Shlomi, near the Golan Heights), and guerrillas capture two Israeli soldiers during an attack along the Lebanese border between the Israeli towns of Zar'it and Shtula. Eight Israeli soldiers also die in fighting that day. In response, Israeli ground, air and naval forces attack at least eight Hezbollah bases and five bridges in southern Lebanon."- Thanks CNN

Quote:

It's almost like Hezbollah is the one reacting to what Israel is doing innit...

In 1996 between March 30 and April 11 the Hezbos reacted to Isreal by firing 50 rockets at them and engaged in cross border artillery attacks that killed a number of Isreali civilians. This lead to the Isreali provocation of Operation Grapes of Wrath, 16 days during which Isreal invaded Lebanon and attacked Hezbollah.

In June of 1993, Hezbollah reacted by launching a rocket attack on an Isreali villiage and then followed with a coordinated strike with the PLO that killed several IDF soldiers. Isreal then provoked them by staging Operation Accountability and invading Lebanon to fight the Hezbos.

Hezbollah uses the crystal balls since historically they "react" prior to the Isreali invasion. Poor fellas...they manage to be both the chicken and the egg.

Quote:
The dirty Arabs started it, they were born for fks sake, born without Hero’s prior approval!

Never even mentioned the "dirty Arabs". Thats all you and frankly I think we need to avoid negative racial commentary, especially when your defending attacks on the "dirty Jews".

H

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Monday, August 7, 2006 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Get real. If someone was shooting rockets into your house trying to kill you...

I would spend my last seconds wondering why someone was doing it in the first place; then, their attempts would be successful, and I would die. Case closed.

You need to get your parents to tape Law and Order for you. Sometimes when people kill you its the start of the show...not the end. My favorite part is the part where we try to bring people to justice for their crimes, or the part where we try to stop them from committing the crime...or committing another one...and I like the hot Assistant DA's.

H

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Monday, August 7, 2006 10:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 'Hero':
"dirty Jews"

You think Jews are dirty? I suppose that fits in with you general outlook, they're not conservative Christian American so not 'good'.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 10:52 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
You need to get your parents to tape Law and Order for you.

I prefer reality; but, thanks for the suggestion.

---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Monday, August 7, 2006 11:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
You fail to offer an alternative that stops the attacks on Isreal.

Ok, fine, you asked, remember that.

Stop stealing peoples land and murdering them for it.

Stop arbitrary shelling of civilian populations in response to the slightest hint of provocation.

Stop randomly killing folks to cause those provocations.

Stop sending troops into sovereign nations with the intent to cause trouble, and then calling it a kidnapping when the citizens of that nation do something about it.

Stop deliberately killing UN peacekeepers.

Stop shooting up hospitals and ambulances.

Stop destroying the infrastructure of another country and destablising it's government to the point where those so-called "terrorists" are the only hope of survival against Isreali aggression.

In short, stop being such complete and total dicks that the entire world, with the exception of two countries, would like to see your whole nation swirl down the great toilet bowl of history to a richly deserved fate.

Trying to stop terrorism by blowing the hell out of everything in sight is like trying to crush a handful of sand in your fist, the harder you squeeze, the more slips right through your fingers.

Every civvie killed results in that much MORE support for Hezbollah, every civvie killed proves their case and point just that much more - you don't break such a thing by bombing it, you break it by removing the logical incentive for them to act or the populace to support their actions.

International Law, Common Sense, and Simple Decency is wholly against Isreal on this.

Sending an infantry squad into another country, accompanied by a tank, and then when residents of that country blow up the tank, kill off most of the infantry and take some prisoner, blasting the hell out of their country, is an act of aggression, and this overwhelming and (admitted, mind you.) pre-plotted "retaliation" smacks of a certain radio station incident on the polish border, doesn't it now ?

Some folks are saying "Oh my god, they've gone mad", but folks, it's ALWAYS been the case, information technology has just given the world a window on events beyond the usual propaganda spouted since the 1950's - and if you ever wondered why the middle east doesn't like us very much, you need look no further than our unilateral support of a bunch of bloodthirsty conquerors that put Cortez and his slaughter of Aztecs to shame.

It rooks me to see our money going to folks who have committed terrorist attacks against the UK, and our people, repeatedly in the past, and in every case trying to frame arabic countries for the acts, from the King David Hotel bombing (celebrated as a holiday over there, insultingly) by the Irgun in 1944, to the Lavon Affair, to the attack on the USS Liberty, they have a history of terrorism every bit as bad as any other middle eastern nation.
(And yes, it rooks me to see our money going to OTHER countries guilty of the same.)

I'm not calling anyone innocent nor justifying anything, but dammit I am sick and tired of us verbally and financially supporting one end of a pack of bloodthirsty, psychotic goons no better than any other pack thereof in the region, and somehow making excuses for what they do, while pitching a fit when someone else does it.

They wanna kill each other, fine - but not on MY dime, dammit.

-Frem

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Monday, August 7, 2006 12:01 PM

DUKKATI

So what I'm reading here is ,most of you would just die.

You would die because you don't feel any thing is right and because nothing is right you think all will be OK in the end?

The key word is TRYING...
I didn't say you were already dead (maybe you are that's your problem)

Help me out here... umm ... how many of you would defend yourselves and loved ones and property?

I need to know.

I can excuse someone being chicken, but someone who doesn't care about their own...well that's just selfish.

By the way, calling me an idiot or Troll shows what you really are. I don't need Highfalutin $20 words and 3 pages to get my point across.

One more thing, Israel didn't start this action get your facts right.

I've been through the system.
It don't work.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 12:15 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

You yourself said they're shooting rockets into my house. I don't see how I can defend myself, especially for that kind of surprise attack. It's not to say I wouldn't make some effort to save myself; it's just that the chances of me surviving multiple rocket attacks is slim to nil.

I'm just being realistic; sorry if that offends you.
---

Go to http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/ and vote Firefly!

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Monday, August 7, 2006 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DukKati:
One more thing, Israel didn't start this action get your facts right.

Yes they're always playing the poor little innocent victim card, it's getting old when the death toll is hugely skewed in their favour.

And actually the definition of selfish is consistently putting yourself before others, and the definition of coward is consistently attacking those who have little or no chance of defending themselves against you.

Quote:
I've been through the system.
It don't work.

The education system? I have to agree.

Highfalutin $20 words, you working class hero you, that's simply priceless

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 12:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DukKati:
]So what I'm reading here is ,most of you would just die.

You would die because you don't feel any thing is right and because nothing is right you think all will be OK in the end?

hell no, absolutely no principal invovled in dying because i got blown up, s'not like i'd be being given a great deal of choice in the matter

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Monday, August 7, 2006 1:11 PM

Hat is off to Israel. What would any country in the world do if a terrorist state (within a state) started lobbing missiles at it and the host country did zip(France or the spineless sect. of England does not count)? Fight back! and make damn sure a message is sent to "Lebanon" that is as easily understood as first grade math......Do not harbor terrorists or we will do what the USofmuthafrakinA does..."Hand out some good 'ole Yankee bitch slaps".........PERIOD.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 1:39 PM

FELLOWTRAVELER

I would thnk you can't blame Israel.

We in the USA had a similar problem with Spanish Florida. "Old Hickory" invaded and problem solved. It seems Israel has little choice but to follow that time tested model.

If a government can't control its territory, somebody else has to.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 1:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hat is off to Israel. What would any country in the world do if a terrorist state (within a state) started lobbing missiles at it and the host country did zip(France or the spineless sect. of England does not count)? Fight back! and make damn sure a message is sent to "Lebanon" that is as easily understood as first grade math......Do not harbor terrorists or we will do what the USofmuthafrakinA does..."Hand out some good 'ole Yankee bitch slaps".........PERIOD.

All very amusing coming from a citizen of a country that lost nearly every war in the last one hundred years when it wasn't backed by Britain...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
Hat is off to Israel. What would any country in the world do if a terrorist state (within a state) started lobbing missiles at it and the host country did zip(France or the spineless sect. of England does not count)? Fight back! and make damn sure a message is sent to "Lebanon" that is as easily understood as first grade math......Do not harbor terrorists or we will do what the USofmuthafrakinA does..."Hand out some good 'ole Yankee bitch slaps".........PERIOD.
All very amusing coming from a citizen of a country that lost nearly every war in the last one hundred years when it wasn't backed by Britain...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

Spoke like a true liberal limey.....First we saved or whooped your english as* how many times? Every........Period

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Monday, August 7, 2006 2:02 PM

Oh, last I checked... The only reason we went into Vet. was because you got your as* kicked(Or was thatthefrench)..Grenada.HaHaMuthafrakinHaHa, South America HaHamuthafrakinha, India, AMERICA..must I go in? Your biggest national heros? King Arthur, Peter pan, Robin hood! Think about it over tea frog. HINT::::::::THEY ARE NOT REAL

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Monday, August 7, 2006 3:31 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

No police force can handle this kind of thing. Police forces are by their nature limited to jurisdiction, and the Israeli police jurisdiction ends at the northern Israeli border. The Lebanese police won’t do anything; if they were then they would have by now.

This is a textbook example of a military circumstance. Hezbollah soldiers invaded northern Israel, attacked the Israeli military, killing 8 and take 2 prisoners. Hezbollah is an elected party of the Lebanese government and currently in control of Southern Lebanon (i.e. Lebanon declared war on Israel.) Israel responds. They destroy roads, bridges and airports. Military strategy 101: isolate the enemy, cut off reinforcements and supply lines. Israel bombs artillery batteries. Military strategy 102: bombard the enemies’ defenses. Israel sends paramilitary ground troops in to Southern Lebanon. Military strategy 103: put boots on the ground and secure key strategy points of entry. Israel proceeds with massive ground invasion. Military strategy 104: send in the troops and secure the area.

You can disagree with Israel decision to respond militarily, but I’m all but certain that if a country controlled by a 20-50,000 strong heavily armed terrorist organization on the border of the US (or Britain) were to invade as Hezbollah did, respectively, that most of you would be calling for the exact same action that Israel has applied to Lebanon. And of course that is why 80% of Israelis support their countries actions. And why Israel is right to respond.

You can complain about the disproportionate destruction that Israeli has in response to Hezbollah, but that’s kind of laughable too. Because first of all, Hezbollah is actively using Lebanese civilians for PR; they have one of the greatest propaganda machines since the Nazi regime. They are launching artillery barrages from within heavily civilian populated areas intentionally to force Israel to fire on civilian inhabited areas. Ergo the majority of civilian deaths in Lebanon would have been avoidable if Hezbollah had not intentionally sought to put them in harms way. Unfortunately, people don’t bother to think about this; all they do is emotionally respond to pictures of dead civilians and draw the simplest conclusion, which is exactly what Hezbollah wants you do, and the reason why Hezbollah will continue to make sure civilians die. But the simplest conclusion is frequently the wrong conclusion. Hezbollah is solely and directly responsible for most of the Lebanese civilian deaths, because they know people will blame Israel. And secondly, Hezbollah chose to declare war on a country that is orders of magnitude more powerful then it is. The disproportionate destruction is unqualifiedly due to the actions of Hezbollah, not Israel. The world will continue to condemn Israel. But what is most troubling of all is that thousands of civilians have and will die in order to fuel Hezbollah’s propaganda campaign, and that is our fault, because we don’t really care what the truth is. Hezbollah has given us a scapegoat for their own atrocities and we are more then happy to take it, because we don’t care, I imagine.

The UN is more or less useless, which is why Israel originally intended that it did not want a UN force to patrol southern Lebanon, and why the current UN force which has been there for decades has not controled anything. The UN has not offered any substantive support in Lebanon, as they have not in Iraq. If they would, things might improve in both cases, at least a UN peace keeping mission would take away some of Hezbollah's propanda. The best solution is the one Israel offered up initially, which was a NATO lead force in southern Lebanon. NATO has had success in maintaining peace because it is not mired by feckless debating, as the UN is. However, that is unlikely to happen. NATO has demonstrated considerable reluctance to get involved in the Middle East, and I suppose I can’t blame them, as it is somewhat beyond their mandate. But rest assured the current proposed resolution will not solve anything, as the previous resolutions did not.

The UN was designed to keep the peace and prevent horrible events like World War II, however it fails to uphold its own resolutions or impose resolutions with any teeth for fear they might have to back it up. It failed in Iraq and it failed in Lebanon. Ultimately, as the UN continues to fail to respond and enforce its own resolutions. Terrorists will grow bolder and bolder, further assured that the UN will offer no obstacle to their aggression. It is interesting that the leader of Hezbollah went on TV and made the remark the he was surprised that Israel responded like this. And I have no reason to doubt that he was. Hezbollah invaded Israel; attacked Israeli defense forces killing and capture Israeli soldiers, yet they were surprised to find that a textbook declaration of war resulted in war. Hezbollah seems to think that they should have the right to invade Israel and that Israel should not have the right to respond. That degree of audacity demonstrated by Hezbollah is, I believe, a direct result of the UN’s complete lack of credibility with Hezbollah.

Now 1559 actually does not call for UN peace keepers to maintain peace in Lebanon, as has been stated by some. This is a Chapter 6 resolution not a Chapter 7 resolution like those against Iraq. So its wrong to condemn the UN for not enforce 1559, but 1559 is an example of the feckless manner in which the UN responds to vicious terrorist. The UN observers in Lebanon under resolution 1559 are only supposed to be observers. The UN never intended to maintain any kind of peace in Lebanon. Hezbollah believes that the UN will not do anything. They believe that as certain as they know you will condemn Israel for each Lebanese civilian Hezbollah leads to their death. And this is also a reason why Israel has responded so heavily, because they don’t believe the UN will respond either. The US and the UK are too busy in Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea and Iran. The UN will have to assert their authority on their own. Israel relies heavily on US support, but the US can’t spare for Israel right now either, and that frightens Israel. They believe they are on their own. The UN will have to make sure that Hezbollah knows they will pay a price for invading Israel and Israel must believe that the UN is seriously prepared to enforce the peace with real teeth.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, August 7, 2006 3:39 PM

Yeah...What he said.

*looks at above poster...salutes in amazement*

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Monday, August 7, 2006 3:54 PM

okay, all respect to finn mac cumhal, it looks like a very detailed post, but i've got to guiltily admit i'm far too tired to read it through and respond appropriately

all i really wanted to say was, kaneman, do you honestly have to be so bloody rude? as for the israeli's following american example, sorry mate, they were kicking arse all around them for a long time before they got an older brother to look after them. usually on pretty scant justification, in terms of the whole starting wars thing.

as for who fought which war and who backed who and who was the one brought about a victory...who gives? your dick is too small and you have to make up for by bragging about your countries? (taking dick to be metaphorical and the countries even more so

) your army are neither as inneffectual as some people believe, nor are they as all-powerful as some believe, their history reflects this.

as for britains heroes, do some research, you might find out each individual country has it's own, yes there're the mythological heroes like arthur etc. you mentioned, sorry your country hasn't been around long enough to have any good myth's, maybe you could borrow from the people who lived there before you? If you actually look, the English have heroes like Francis Drake and Nelson, or Wellington. the only welsh hero i can think of is (let me be hope i get this one right, never had the opportunity to study welsh history beyond visiting the castle's) Owain Glyndwr, who led a rebellion and proclaimed himself prince of wales, In scotland we have Wallace (pchau, in honesty, man was a good guerilla, crap general, but there you have it) and the Bruce, who was a hell of a man to have leading an army. they were all real and really rather well documented historical figures ^^

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:12 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I don’t know anything about Kaneman, but the comment about losing every war that wasn’t backed by Britain is a pretty pejorative statement. Americans get called arrogant for making statements like that; I think British people should too.

Although I do have to say that I’m a big fan of the UK. Churchill is one of my heroes and a Brit that is far from a fairytale. And of course there are lots of British heroes going all the back to Boudicca that are quite real. Robert Burns is another one that comes to mind. If only for the Haggis!

I'm also a big fan of British cuisine. Even the haggis.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:18 PM

i do loves my haggis suppers, instant heart-attack in a paper wrapper

and i agree, most statements along those lines are really just setting yourself up to be called all manner of insulting things, but...but...

but im sure i could say something either witty, insightful or both if i could keep my eye's open and stop drifting off...need to go sleep so i can think straight again >.<

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
okay, all respect to finn mac cumhal, it looks like a very detailed post, but i've got to guiltily admit i'm far too tired to read it through and respond appropriately all i really wanted to say was, kaneman, do you honestly have to be so bloody rude? as for the israeli's following american example, sorry mate, they were kicking arse all around them for a long time before they got an older brother to look after them. usually on pretty scant justification, in terms of the whole starting wars thing.

as for who fought which war and who backed who and who was the one brought about a victory...who gives? your dick is too small and you have to make up for by bragging about your countries? (taking dick to be metaphorical and the countries even more so ) your army are neither as inneffectual as some people believe, nor are they as all-powerful as some believe, their history reflects this.

as for britains heroes, do some research, you might find out each individual country has it's own, yes there're the mythological heroes like arthur etc. you mentioned, sorry your country hasn't been around long enough to have any good myth's, maybe you could borrow from the people who lived there before you? If you actually look, the English have heroes like Francis Drake and Nelson, or Wellington. the only welsh hero i can think of is (let me be hope i get this one right, never had the opportunity to study welsh history beyond visiting the castle's) Owain Glyndwr, who led a rebellion and proclaimed himself prince of wales, In scotland we have Wallace (pchau, in honesty, man was a good guerilla, crap general, but there you have it) and the Bruce, who was a hell of a man to have leading an army. they were all real and really rather well documented historical figures ^^

Yes......Read statments before..not rude...true

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t know anything about Kaneman, but the comment about losing every war that wasn’t backed by Britain is a pretty pejorative statement. Americans get called arrogant for making statements like that; I think British people should too.

Although I do have to say that I’m a big fan of the UK. Churchill is one of my heroes and a Brit that is far from a fairytale. And of course there are lots of British heroes going all the back to Boudicca that are quite real. Robert Burns is another one that comes to mind. If only for the Haggis!

I'm also a big fan of British cuisine. Even the haggis.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

I too have British that I admire Python, Churchill, The Cure, Thatcher......However, when I here these delusional English putting down America I can't help but comment...And I happen to think the Peter Pan and King Arthur post was quite witty.... not rude....Someone miss tea and crumpets?

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:33 PM

and, you're continuing to make crude jokes and assumptions based on national stereotype. i'm not even english, i'm scottish. i'm not putting down america, i'm responding to you being rude about britain, from what i saw, citizen wasn't putting down america so much as taking the mickey out of you, could be wrong, could be latent amerobashing (if it's not a word it is now).

and i'm probably being tired and touchy, but, nuts to it.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:35 PM

G1223

The truth be told there is no one to talk to. Hezbolla is a terrorist organization. It is not a national government.

Lebanon has said it cannot do anything to stop the terrorists.Lebanon is the national government where these rockets are comming from.

That means Lebanon is either party firing the missles and therefore committing an act of war and Israel is clear to do what it is doing or it is a group of terrorists who are acting outside the law and Israel is the only government which seem able to deal with the terrorists.

You cannot have it where a terrorists are talked to as a national government. It would allow the terrorists to attack and not face the needed response for their action.

TANSTAAFL

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oddsbodskins:
and, you're continuing to make crude jokes and assumptions based on national stereotype. i'm not even english, i'm scottish. i'm not putting down america, i'm responding to you being rude about britain, from what i saw, citizen wasn't putting down america so much as taking the mickey out of you, could be wrong, could be latent amerobashing (if it's not a word it is now).

and i'm probably being tired and touchy, but, nuts to it.

My comments were to three different people.....only part to you was the witty part...Man, you do need to go to bed. You are as stuffy as an Englishmen.

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Monday, August 7, 2006 4:45 PM