If you speak Arabic, you're a terrorist. by citizen

Historically, progressive attitudes have generally taken a back seat to getting blown up.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Historically, progressive attitudes have generally taken a back seat to getting blown up.

So do you agree that people who look Muslim should be banned from aircraft? Mob rule?

Is Xenophobia okay if we're the one's doing it?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 11:31 AM

But seriously, what are you supposed to do if Arabic is the language you speak? Be quiet and not say anything or else you're thrown out of any transportation system you want to use?

They obviously got through all the check-points safe and clear.

Progressive ideas such as "don't burn people alive as witches" have also taken backseats, historically, to fear, yes. Doesn't mean it's right.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 11:34 AM

To be fair and realistic, if I were of Arab descent, I would be speaking english on an English or American plane these days, for my own saftey.
There's a lot of nuts out there, on both sides of the fence.

Alladinisall

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:06 PM

EMPXENU

It's a "progressive attitude" to allow people to move freely and not arbitrarily curb that right because of paranoid stereotyping?

----
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being" - Carl Jung

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:07 PM

DINALT

Where's it all going to end, this is almost as feeble as the story a few days ago about the claustrophobic woman who made a flight turn back.

Unfortunately, this type of incident does the terror mongers work for them.
Of course, people are going to be on edge - that's understandable. But it doesn't mean passengers can start demanding the removal of other passengers.

I'm guessing that Spanish airport security is as tight as any other western airports, so why would people feel nervous ?

What next ? People refusing to get on trains or buses, or any other form of public transport ?

It's a worrying sign for the future, although I do agree with chrisisall. With the current climate, I'd also be speaking English on a UK or American plane.
Not saying that's right or wrong, but people will be understandably nervous, and that might go some way to alleviating fears.

That said, what would these passengers have done if it had been 2 English speakers, who just appeared nervous ?
Could be that someone's just nervous about flying (there are a few around - me included). If they saw someone sweating, or gripping the seat with white knuckles, what would they have done ?
Or someone so nervous they were trying to control a panic attack - it happens. Are we so far down the paranoid road, that anyone who looks suspicious gets removed from a plane ?

But I'm guessing that the real criminals are rubbing their hands with glee, as they are creating such a state of paranoia in the transport systems of the world.

Wholeheartedly agree with Empxenu - paranoid stereotyping isn't a progressive attitude.
If we start down the road of paranoid xenophobia, it's a slippery slope to intolerance and hatred - so let's hope these incidents stop.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Historically, progressive attitudes have generally taken a back seat to getting blown up.

I think you're missing the point. Charles Krauthammer, neo-conservative talking head and Fox News political analyst, wrote a column in the New York Times, "Politically Correct Screening Won't Catch Jihadists," advocating the practice of using ethnicity, nationality, and religion as the determinate factors when screening for potential terrorists at U.S. airports. This position is so flawed, it's hard to know where to start.

First off, this is a racist, bigoted idea that will do nothing to enhance security. Think back to London after the bombings there. A police officer, obviously on edge after the recent bombings, chased down and put seven bullets into a Brazilian electrician. Why? Because the Brazilian panicked and ran from the officer, and the policeman thought he looked like an Arab Muslim. I mention this, because of Krauthammer's answer: security officials should concentrate on "young Muslim men of North African, Middle Eastern and South Asian origin." Krauthammer doesn't say how authorities should go about identifying "Muslim men" or how to distinguish non-Muslim men from Muslim men entering a subway station. Probably just a small detail easily overlooked.

The flaw in Krauthammer's methodology, is that his system includes huge numbers of men of color. How, just by looking, can security personnel identify a Muslim male of Arab or South Asian origin goes unexplained.

Reportedly, after Sept. 11, 2001, some "good" citizens of California took out after members of the Sikh community, mistaking them for Arabs. Oh, well, what's a little political incorrectness in the name of national security. Bang, bang -- oops, he was Brazilian. Two young black guys were London bombers: one Jamaican, the other Somalian. Muslim, too. Ergo: Watch your back when around black men -- they could be Muslims.

So while advocates of racial profiling would have authorities subject men and women of black and brown hues to close scrutiny for criminal suspicion, they would look right past:

· White male Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh, who killed 168 people, including 19 children, and damaged 220 buildings.

· White male Eric Rudolph, whose remote-controlled bomb killed a woman and an off-duty police officer at a clinic, whose Olympic Park pipe bomb killed a woman and injured more than 100, and whose bombs hit a gay club and woman's clinic.

· D.C.-born and Silver Spring-raised white male John Walker Lindh, who converted to Islam and was captured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban.

· The IRA bombers who killed and wounded hundreds; the neo-fascist bombers who killed 80 people and injured nearly 300 in Bologna, Italy; and the truck bombings in Colombia by Pedro Escobar's gang. Bombings carried out by Basque separatists, Germany's Red Army Faction, and France's Action Directe.

But let's get really current. What about those non-Arab, non-South Asians without black or brown skins who are bombing apartment buildings, train stations and theaters in Russia. They've taken down passenger jets, hijacked schools and used female suicide bombers to a fare-thee-well, killing hundreds and wounding thousands. They are Muslims from Chechnya, and would pass the Krauthammer test for terrorists with ease. After all, these folks hail from the Caucasus; you can't get any more Caucasian than that.

What the racial profilers are proposing is insulting, offensive and -- by thought, word and deed, whether intentional or not -- racist. And just as importantly, ineffective. But don't take my word for it. Ask the Israelis. El Al, the Israeli airline, doesn't now nor has it ever used racial profiling as a means for detecting potential terrorists. What do they do? They use a more thorough and direct approach:

"When El Al passengers arrive at Israel's Ben Gurion airport or any other airport that services the airline, they undergo an extensive interview by trained security personnel.

They are asked several questions, such as:

-- Who paid for your ticket?

-- What is the purpose of your travels?

-- Did anybody have access to your bags before you arrived to the airport?

-- When did you book this flight?

During the interrogation, ticket holders are also psychologically evaluated. Their entire makeup is judged by tone of voice, mood and body language.

The information is sent by computer to international law enforcement agencies, such as Interpol or Scotland Yard, for instant evaluation.

If there are doubts, the passenger is not allowed on the plane.

Security experts said El Al Airlines leaves absolutely nothing to chance.

In the United States, cleaning and maintenance crews are allowed to move freely around aircraft, sometimes without supervision, conditions open to the threat of an "inside job," experts said.

By contrast, El Al planes are heavily guarded 24 hours a day, seven days a week, even during cleaning and maintenance.

All El Al pilots are veterans of the Israeli air force and are trained in handling weapons and in hand-to-hand combat.

They do not, however, carry guns in the cockpit.

The cockpit has bulletproof doors activated by a keypad from inside the cockpit.

Also, at least two undercover air marshals are on board every El Al flight. They sit among the passengers. They dress in plain clothes. They are armed and licensed to shoot and kill." (CNN New Report). I guess they're doing something right. They haven't had a successful terrorist strike on one of their aircraft in over 30 years.

The point I think CITIZEN is making and you're missing, is that profiling people based on their ethnicity, nationality, and religion is racist, demeaning, and ineffective. And while you're focusing on singling out a particular group, the terrorists will have adapted to this, and once again slipped under the radar with devastating consequences.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Historically, progressive attitudes have generally taken a back seat to getting blown up.
So do you agree that people who look Muslim should be banned from aircraft? Mob rule?

Is Xenophobia okay if we're the one's doing it?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

Only when I'm on it..What Finn said.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
To be fair and realistic, if I were of Arab descent, I would be speaking english on an English or American plane these days, for my own saftey.
There's a lot of nuts out there, on both sides of the fence.

It's not sure whether they were speaking Arabic, all that's known for sure is they were 'Muslim looking'.

Would you only speak Spanish in Mexico?

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
Only when I'm on it..What Finn said.

So its okay for us to label people based on religion and ethnicity, but when they do it, it is a product of their hateful culture, hateful religion and hateful language.

You have double standards, I get it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Historically, progressive attitudes have generally taken a back seat to getting blown up.

I think you're missing the point. Charles Krauthammer, Neo-conservative talking head and Fox News political analyst, wrote a column in the New York Times, "Politically Correct Screening Won't Catch Jihadists," advocating the practice of using ethnicity, nationality, and religion as the determinate factors when screening for potential terrorists at U.S. airports. This position is so flawed, it's hard to know where to start.

First off, this is racist, bigoted idea that will do nothing to enhance security. Think back to London after the recent bombings there. A police officer, obviously on edge after the recent bombings, chased down and put seven bullets into a Brazilian electrician. Why? Because the Brazilian panicked and ran from the officer, and the policeman thought he looked like an Arab Muslim. I mention this, because of Krauthammer's answer: security officials should concentrate on "young Muslim men of North African, Middle Eastern and South Asian origin." Krauthammer doesn't say how authorities should go about identifying "Muslim men" or how to distinguish non-Muslim men from Muslim men entering a subway station. Probably just a small detail easily overlooked.

The flaw in Krauthammer's methodology, is that his system includes huge numbers of men of color. How, just by looking, can security personnel identify a Muslim male of Arab or South Asian origin goes unexplained.

Reportedly, after Sept. 11, 2001, some "good" citizens of California took out after members of the Sikh community, mistaking them for Arabs. Oh, well, what's a little political incorrectness in the name of national security. Bang, bang -- oops, he was Brazilian. Two young black guys were London bombers: one Jamaican, the other Somalian. Muslim, too. Ergo: Watch your back when around black men -- they could be Muslims.

So while advocates of racial profiling would have authorities subject men and women of black and brown hues to close scrutiny for criminal suspicion, they would look right past:

· White male Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh, who killed 168 people, including 19 children, and damaged 220 buildings.

· White male Eric Rudolph, whose remote-controlled bomb killed a woman and an off-duty police officer at a clinic, whose Olympic Park pipe bomb killed a woman and injured more than 100, and whose bombs hit a gay club and woman's clinic.

· D.C.-born and Silver Spring-raised white male John Walker Lindh, who converted to Islam and was captured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban.

· The IRA bombers who killed and wounded hundreds; the neo-fascist bombers who killed 80 people and injured nearly 300 in Bologna, Italy; and the truck bombings in Colombia by Pedro Escobar's gang. Bombings carried out by Basque separatists, Germany's Red Army Faction, and the French's Action Directe.

But let's get really current. What about those non-Arab, non-South Asians without black or brown skins who are bombing apartment buildings, train stations and theaters in Russia. They've taken down passenger jets, hijacked schools and used female suicide bombers to a fare-thee-well, killing hundreds and wounding thousands. They are Muslims from Chechnya, and would pass the Krauthammer test for terrorists with ease. After all, these folks hail from the Caucasus; you can't get any more Caucasian than that.

What the racial profilers are proposing is insulting, offensive and -- by thought, word and deed, whether intentional or not -- racist. And just as importantly, ineffective. But don't take my word for it. Ask the Israelis. El-Al, the Israeli airline, doesn't now nor has it ever used racial profiling as a means for detecting potential terrorists. What do they do? They use a more thorough and direct approach:

"When El Al passengers arrive at Israel's Ben Gurion airport or any other airport that services the airline, they undergo an extensive interview by trained security personnel.

They are asked several questions, such as:

-- Who paid for your ticket?

-- What is the purpose of your travels?

-- Did anybody have access to your bags before you arrived to the airport?

-- When did you book this flight?

During the interrogation, ticket holders are also psychologically evaluated. Their entire makeup is judged by tone of voice, mood and body language.

The information is sent by computer to international law enforcement agencies, such as Interpol or Scotland Yard, for instant evaluation.

If there are doubts, the passenger is not allowed on the plane.

Security experts said El Al Airlines leaves absolutely nothing to chance.

In the United States, cleaning and maintenance crews are allowed to move freely around aircraft, sometimes without supervision, conditions open to the threat of an "inside job," experts said.

By contrast, El Al planes are heavily guarded 24 hours a day, seven days a week, even during cleaning and maintenance.

All El Al pilots are veterans of the Israeli air force and are trained in handling weapons and in hand-to-hand combat.

They do not, however, carry guns in the cockpit.

The cockpit has bulletproof doors activated by a keypad from inside the cockpit.

Also, at least two undercover air marshals are on board every El Al flight. They sit among the passengers. They dress in plain clothes. They are armed and licensed to shoot and kill." (CNN New Report). I guess they're doing something right. They haven't had a successful terrorists strike on one of their aircraft in over 30 years.

The point I think CITIZEN is making and you're missing, is that profiling people based on their ethnicity, nationality, and religion is racist, demeaning, ineffective. And while you're focusing on singling out a particular group, the terrorists will have adapted to this and once again slipped under the radar with devastating consequences.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

How is this racist? You know what a terrorist(THAT IS AN eminent THREAT..THE ONES WE ARE AT WAR WITH) looks like. To catch him you profile his "look".

If I were in the area, and an APB come out and I fit the description, I would not care if the police "questioned me". If they didn't, they would not be doing due diligence.

"we are looking for a five foot two inch white male"
"but check everyone black, asian,and female, let's not upset the five foot two inch white males!"

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
Only when I'm on it..What Finn said.
So its okay for us to label people based on religion and ethnicity, but when they do it, it is a product of their hateful culture, hateful religion and hateful language.

You have double standards, I get it.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

I am fine with that Especially when it comes to AIR travel.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:

If I were in the area, and an APB come out and I fit the description, I would not care if the police "questioned me". If they didn't, they would not be doing due diligence.

But they were already in the plane.
Past all the checkpoints.
And it wasn't official security personell suspecting them, it was other passengers.

Basically, it's as if you were being picked up by a mob for questioning for resembling a suspect, not by the police. After having been officially cleared of suspicion by the police. (read: airport security.) That'd be a more fitting comparison.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
I am fine with that Especially when it comes to AIR travel.

Yes you should strike the infidel down, they have the wrong colour skin and everything.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:

How is this racist? You know what a terrorist(THAT IS AN eminent THREAT..THE ONES WE ARE AT WAR WITH) looks like. To catch him you profile his "look".

No we don't always know what they look like. That's the point. If you focus exclusively on "looks," then your going to miss them. A person's looks can be altered, another language can be used, a religious preference can be concealed. I think you're underestimating the terrorists if you think they're unable to adapt to racial profiling. And if you don't see how ostricizing and demonizing people of another ethnicity, nationality, or religious group is wrong, after all that I already listed above, then I doubt I can explain it to you.

Quote:
If I were in the area, and an APB come out and I fit the description, I would not care if the police "questioned me". If they didn't, they would not be doing due diligence.

If security personnel recieved a description to be on the lookout for i.e.: "a 6"5' man, dark complexion, arab dress, bearded, wearing Muslim prayer beads, walking with a cane, and possibly hooked to a kidney dialysis machine etc.," then, yes it would obviously make sense to search for and question anyone matching that description. Again, the terrorists are malicious not moronic. It's resonable to expect that they will do everything within their ability to foil any attempts made at apprehending them using a racial profiling system.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:

If I were in the area, and an APB come out and I fit the description, I would not care if the police "questioned me". If they didn't, they would not be doing due diligence.

But they were already in the plane.
Past all the checkpoints.
And it wasn't official security personell suspecting them, it was other passengers.

Basically, it's as if you were being picked up by a mob for questioning for resembling a suspect, not by the police. After having been officially cleared of suspicion by the police. (read: airport security.) That'd be a more fitting comparison.

My apologies, My comment was more about this idea we shouldn't profile. It just makes no sense to me. If the "Intelligence (USED WITH CAUTION)" comes in that a threat is from BLANKITY..BLANK, we should look for BLANKITY, BLANK. Not blankity, blank.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:

How is this racist? You know what a terrorist(THAT IS AN eminent THREAT..THE ONES WE ARE AT WAR WITH) looks like. To catch him you profile his "look".

No we don't always know what they look like. That's the point. If you focus exclusively on "looks," then your going to miss them. A person's looks can be altered, another language can be used, a religious preference can be concealed. I think you're underestimating the terrorists if you think they're unable to adapt to racial profiling. And if you don't see how ostricizing and demonizing people of another ethnicity, nationality, or religious group is wrong, after all that I already listed above, then I doubt I can explain it to you.

Quote:
If I were in the area, and an APB come out and I fit the description, I would not care if the police "questioned me". If they didn't, they would not be doing due diligence.

If security personnel recieved a description to be on the lookout for i.e.: "a 6"5' man, dark complexion, arab dress, bearded, wearing Muslim prayer beads, walking with a cane, and possibly hooked to a kidney dialysis machine etc.," then, yes it would obviously make sense to search for and question anyone matching that description. Again, the terrorists are malicious not moronic. It's resonable to expect that they will do everything within their ability to foil any attempts made at apprehending them using a racial profiling system.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

Like what plastic surgery? Every time a plot is "foiled" they look like Arabs.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
Like what plastic surgery? Every time a plot is "foiled" they look like Arabs.

Did you even bother to read the first post I made? The one listing all the other terrorists acts that have been committed by "non-Arab" looking indivduals. And what about the plots that aren't "foiled." Ever notice how the pictures that are released don't always fit into your "Arab" profile.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:19 PM

Yes I'm talking about lately.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:

My apologies, My comment was more about this idea we shouldn't profile. It just makes no sense to me. If the "Intelligence (USED WITH CAUTION)" comes in that a threat is from BLANKITY..BLANK, we should look for BLANKITY, BLANK. Not blankity, blank.

I apologize if I misunderstood you before.

But isn't this sort of racial profiling a limit we impose upon our own awareness? It makes us blinder to the threat that doesn't fit the profile, and it only fosters this sort of paranoia directed at innocents in the population.

People merely speaking Arabic had passengers scared enough to have them removed. After they were past security. That's not normal vigilance, that's being crippled by paranoia. People should be able to trust security in a way that reassures them. Meaning, they should have checks and tests in place that ensure the harmlessness of every individual so that people don't feel a helpless panic at the ones who merely share a physical resemblence to a possible threat.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by USBrowncoat:
Yes I'm talking about lately.

"Two young black guys were London bombers: one Jamaican, the other Somalian. Muslim, too. Ergo: Watch your back when around black men -- they could be Muslims."

"What about those non-Arab, non-South Asians without black or brown skins who are bombing apartment buildings, train stations and theaters in Russia. They've taken down passenger jets, hijacked schools and used female suicide bombers to a fare-thee-well, killing hundreds and wounding thousands. They are Muslims from Chechnya, and would pass the Krauthammer test for terrorists with ease."

"· D.C.-born and Silver Spring-raised white male John Walker Lindh, who converted to Islam and was captured in Afghanistan fighting for the Taliban."

Again, I think you need to look at the Israeli screening system. They're obviously surrounded by more than a few Arabs and Persians (Iranians) who would love to highjack/blow-up an El Al aircraft, and they don't use racial profiling. The reason being, IT DOESN"T WORK.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
But isn't this sort of racial profiling a limit we impose upon our own awareness? It makes us blinder to the threat that doesn't fit the profile, and it only fosters this sort of paranoia directed at innocents in the population.

Well said, AgentRouka.

Edit: To say nothing of the fact that it alienates the very segment of the population from which we need the most help and cooperation.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
So do you agree that people who look Muslim should be banned from aircraft? Mob rule?

Is Xenophobia okay if we're the one's doing it?

If you had to choose between Xenophobia and the threat of getting blown up, which would you pick?

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
I think you're missing the point. Charles Krauthammer, neo-conservative talking head and Fox News political analyst, wrote a column in the New York Times, "Politically Correct Screening Won't Catch Jihadists," advocating the practice of using ethnicity, nationality, and religion as the determinate factors when screening for potential terrorists at U.S. airports. This position is so flawed, it's hard to know where to start.

I haven’t read Krauthammer’s paper so I’m not going to respond to this, except to say that I think you’ve missed my point. And also there is nothing inherently bigoted about racial profiling. In the same way that there is nothing bigoted about arguing that more African-Americans comment crimes then White Americans. This is a statement of fact. Much as it is a statement of fact that the majority of terrorists we are dealing with are of Middle Eastern ethnicity. So if you want to prevent terrorism and your choice of suspects is an old English woman or a young Middle Eastern man, who do you choose to interrogate, if you can choose only one?

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:04 PM

DREAMTROVE

Let me stick my nose where it doesn't belong

I would take Xenophobia, personally. But I don't think that's the contest, even if Citizen does.

I think it's a test between relatively empty threat, and the countermeasure which is an eye for an empty threat against an eye.

We shouldn't be taking pre-emptive action, it's morally wrong, violates the idea of minimum death, and totally undermines any attempt at diplomacy.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
We shouldn't be taking pre-emptive action, it's morally wrong, violates the idea of minimum death, and totally undermines any attempt at diplomacy.

Once someone has decided to get on a plane with a bomb, diplomacy becomes a secondary issue to preventing the explosion, I think. And we are already taking pre-emptive action, with regard to screening passengers, we are simply now doing it with no clear methodology for choosing likely suspects, which leads to strip searching old women.

Also everyone's nose belongs on this board.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If you had to choose between Xenophobia and the threat of getting blown up, which would you pick?

Basically, anyone who dares to speak Arabic in your presence is automatically a terror suspect and you can point at them and demand that they be banned from your flight(/bus/train/building/whatever)?

Because, those people had been through the same security measures everyone else had. Their only crime was looking and speaking Arabic.

At some point, the racial paranoia has to stop. There needs to be a point of reassurance, because you cannot make belonging to a certain race a crime.

So what is it that you propose Arabic-speaking and -looking innocents do to take a plane ride without getting thrown off the moment someone hears them talk?

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I haven’t read Krauthammer’s paper so I’m not going to respond to this, except to say that I think you’ve missed my point. And also there is nothing inherently bigoted about racial profiling. In the same way that there is nothing bigoted about arguing that more African-Americans comment crimes then White Americans. This is a statement of fact. Much as it is a statement of fact that the majority of terrorists we are dealing with are of Middle Eastern ethnicity. So if you want to prevent terrorism and your choice of suspects is an old English woman or a young Middle Eastern man, who do you choose to interrogate, if you can choose only one?

You're right. African-Americans statistically commit more crimes than White-Americans, or at least they have a higher conviction rate. However, that's a whole other debate. As for your choice between an old English woman and a young Middle Eastern man, that's a false choice. But the Bush administration has been giving Americans those ever since 9/11.

I think that we must be careful to respect people's civil liberties. To suggest there is a trade-off between security and individual freedoms - that we must discard one protection for the other - is, again, a false choice. You do not defend liberty to forsake it.

When you design systems that are targeted to one group or another, you justifiably can anticipate a reaction that you are profiling and that it is discriminatory. In order for us to continue to be the kind of country we want to be, we need to design a system where nationality, ethnicity, and religion is not the element that drives any kind of screening method. A system that respects the liberties of every individual.

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty nor security."
- Benjamin Franklin

I realize you're not willing to give up your liberties, you're just asking the government to restrict the liberties of others, so that you will have your false sense of security.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So what is it that you propose Arabic-speaking and -looking innocents do to take a plane ride without getting thrown off the moment someone hears them talk?

If you really want to know, I suggest that we consider airport screening processes that don’t use random methodology, since strip searching old women is not likely to give anyone on board much piece of mind. I suggest that we consider evaluating potential suspects based on a broad spectrum of characteristics including behavior. And yes, we should more closely examine Muslim passengers then old women. Then maybe they went "through the same security measures everyone else" will mean more then it does right now.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 2:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
Your right. African-Americans statistically commit more crimes than White-Americans, or at least they have a higher conviction rate. However, that's a whole other debate. As for your choice between an old English woman and a young Middle Eastern man, that's a false choice. But the Bush administration has been giving Americans those ever since 9/11.

This isn’t a false choice at all. In fact, there’s every reason to believe that this is a choice that screeners in the US have likely faced.

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
I think that we must be careful to respect people's civil liberties. To suggest there is a trade-off between security and individual freedoms - that we must discard one protection for the other - is a false choice. You do not defend liberty to forsake it.

It’s not a false choice at all. In fact it is a choice that everyone has had to make when faced with a war. It’s a choice most people in the world make. In fact, only people in the rich, relative safety of the Western world can afford to forego that choice.

Claiming that these are “false choices” is just a way of avoiding a difficult issue. But the issue is real. People want to be safe, and if they cannot have confidence in our airplane screening they will evidentally do their own screening attempts, with much less consideration for fairness, I imagine.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 3:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If you really want to know, I suggest that we consider airport screening processes that don’t use random methodology

Ah...common ground. With respect to this part of your post, I'm in complete agreement with you. Random searches are ......well, random. They're a waste of valuable time and limited resources.

But that's all for me. It's time for Deadwood. Whores, alcohol, and throat-cuttin' ....a good time for all.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
But that's all for me. It's time for Deadwood. Whores, alcohol, and throat-cuttin' ....a good time for all.

Never got into Deadwood, really. But anything with whores, alcohol and throat-cuttin’ can’t be too bad.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
To be fair and realistic, if I were of Arab descent, I would be speaking english on an English or American plane these days, for my own saftey.
There's a lot of nuts out there, on both sides of the fence.
It's not sure whether they were speaking Arabic, all that's known for sure is they were 'Muslim looking'.

Would you only speak Spanish in Mexico?

If Americans had pulled a 911 in Mexico, you couldn't even pay me to go there. I value my existance too much.
I already plan to never visit the ME for 'similar' reasons.

If I were of ME descent, I would be so tetchy about air-travel right now, I probably would never use it.
And if I lived in the ME, and had no relatives in the west, I'd never go there.

These are crazy times, and the best defense is not being where you can get hurt.

For my own part, I can usually sense potential violence when it's near me, and two ME-types on a plane with me would pose no interest to me, unless I sensed a cold hatred from them- then I'd keep a watchful eye.
But then I'd keep a similar watchful eye for any couple or group I sensed it from, unless they were children, I guess.

I say similar, but I admit, the ME look would add some edge to my attention if I sensed anything- so I probably would be guilty of profiling, even if only in that small way.

Only human Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 4:48 PM

KANEMAN

My dearest CiTz, what a joke you have become. Why don't you stop playing around and fulfill your trollish destiny. You have nothing but hot air and flame. Stop pretending.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:00 PM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And yes, we should more closely examine Muslim passengers then old women. Then maybe they went "through the same security measures everyone else" will mean more then it does right now.

I take it you never saw 'Mrs. Doubtfire.'

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
I take it you never saw 'Mrs. Doubtfire.'

If Robin Williams decides to become a cross-dressing elderly suicide bomber, we’re just all screwed.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:25 PM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If Robin Williams decides to become a cross-dressing elderly suicide bomber, we’re just all screwed.

Exactly. If you only target Arab-looking men, they'll just dress up as old women. A random system means there's a chance you'll get caught no matter how you appear. And there have been a few female suicide bombers in Palestine and Iraq. Bomb sniffers that everyone has to pass through is crucial, but it won't happen, because that would require technology development and time. And politicians only get credit for instant-gratification appearances of action.

BTW, if I really wanted to make some quick money, I'd get a tan, grow a beard, then get on a plane and start talking some ME-sounding gibberish. After I get kicked off for no good reason, I'd sue the airline for what little profit they're making. That's Homeland Security. USA!!! USA!!!

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:36 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If Robin Williams decides to become a cross-dressing elderly suicide bomber, we’re just all screwed.

Exactly. If you only target Arab-looking men, they'll just dress up as old women. A random system means there's a chance you'll get caught no matter how you appear. And there have been a few female suicide bombers in Palestine and Iraq. Bomb sniffers that everyone has to pass through is crucial, but it won't happen, because that would require technology development and time. And politicians only get credit for instant-gratification appearances of action.

BTW, if I really wanted to make some quick money, I'd get a tan, grow a beard, then get on a plane and start talking some ME-sounding gibberish. After I get kicked off for no good reason, I'd sue the airline for what little profit they're making. That's Homeland Security. USA!!! USA!!!

You are a babbling fool. When they dress as old women we will search everyone. till then... why go random when we can narrow it down a bit. doesn't that make sense idiot? Well, it's true.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
Exactly. If you only target Arab-looking men, they'll just dress up as old women. A random system means there's a chance you'll get caught no matter how you appear. And there have been a few female suicide bombers in Palestine and Iraq. Bomb sniffers that everyone has to pass through is crucial, but it won't happen, because that would require technology development and time. And politicians only get credit for instant-gratification appearances of action.

This is common fallacy. It’s used often in the abortion debate. But in the end, it is a fallacy, and we are not at risk of being blown up by old women.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:23 PM

ERIC

Well I don't know what part of that you think is fallacious, but it seems clear to me that someone willing to die and take lots of people with him can beat any system, given the time and resources. If they know you're looking for 'X,' they'll simply become or appear to be 'not X.' Say you get someone with olive skin but with the name Gonzales on their passport. Arab with fake ID or hispanic? There are a lot of people on the campus here where you really can't tell. The only way you could protect air travel that comes close to effective is universal bomb detectors, and armed air marshals on every flight. Racial profiling simply can't work in countries like Spain, where so many people have dark skin and many Arab countries are close by. Too many people.

Of all the lies and bullshit that's come out of W's piehole, he's right about one thing: they only have to succeed once. There's gotta be a way of staying a step ahead of them that works and doesn't make a terrorist out of someone who wasn't one before they got harrassed for speaking the wrong language. Making enemies faster than we can kill them isn't a viable strategy.

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Sunday, August 20, 2006 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:

You are a babbling fool. When they dress as old women we will search everyone. till then... why go random when we can narrow it down a bit. doesn't that make sense idiot? Well, it's true.

Here's a funny idea.

Instead of going random or narrowing it down, how's about they search everyone? Hire more people for security, make sure every single passenger has been checked out.

Random searches just strike me as so stupid in this scenario.

Muslim radicals are not even the only kind of terrorism out there in the world. Who knows when some perfectly Caucasian-looking creep decides to impose his own little moment of power for whatever other reason, simply because he's inspired by the techniques he's seen on the news?

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:03 AM

DREAMTROVE

Finn,

I meant so called pre-emptive military action. ie. invasion of other sovereign lands to change them to our liking, whether it is as you believe to make them not terrorists, or as I believe, to make them subservient to our will, the will of israel, make a one world govt., and take their natural resources. But regardless of the motivation, it's morally wrong.

I just meant I was getting in the middle of a spat, not the on the boardness so much that I thought my nose was not belonging.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Eric:
Well I don't know what part of that you think is fallacious, but it seems clear to me that someone willing to die and take lots of people with him can beat any system, given the time and resources.

And your strategy then is to make it easier for them by focusing on people who aren’t a threat? Every old woman that we search in a random search means that someone who might be a real terrorist might get by without notice.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 4:36 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Historically, progressive attitudes have generally taken a back seat to getting blown up.

Yeah, during WWII, this sort of fear led to Japanese internment camps.

I don't know what is more disturbing, that some people practice racial profiling, or that others try to justify it.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
during WWII, this sort of fear led to Japanese internment camps.

Well, around that time a radio show had folks believing we were being attacked by Mars. Peeps were a little wackier back then, I think.

But I may be wrong Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:33 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
So if you want to prevent terrorism and your choice of suspects is an old English woman or a young Middle Eastern man, who do you choose to interrogate, if you can choose only one?

Why only one???

Finn, you keep posing false choices as if they wer real. I recall many threads ago the scenario where the choice was "If you knew a terrorist was going to blow up Los Angles in a couple of hours would you resort to torture?" You watch WAAAAY too much 24. In reality, these aren' the choices we face.

The reality is that the only things that your narrowed choices reveal is your own limited mentation.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:42 AM