Public Stoning: Not Just for the Taliban Anymore by misbehaven

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Public Stoning: Not Just for the Taliban Anymore

POSTED BY: MISBEHAVEN
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 06:55
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Monday, August 21, 2006 9:41 AM

I came across this article on alternet.org, and think it does a good job of illustrating the potential dangers of religious fundamentalism. As an Atheist and a teacher, I found some sections of this article to be particularly disturbing. For some time now, I've thought of Christian fundamentalists as being simply comical. I think I'm going to have to revisit that opinion. These people have gone from ridiculous to dangerous.

I've only included excerpts from the article, but there's a link at the top of the story, which you can use to access the article in its entirety.
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Public Stoning: Not Just for the Taliban Anymore
By John Sugg, Church and State
Posted on August 15, 2006, Printed on August 21, 2006
http://www.alternet.org/story/40318/

Two really devilish guys materialized in Toccoa, Ga., last month to harangue 600 true believers on the gospel of a thoroughly theocratic America. Along with lesser lights of the religious far right who spoke at American Vision's "Worldview Super Conference 2006," Herb Titus and Gary North called for nothing short of the overthrow of the United States of America.

Titus and North aren't household names. But Titus, former dean of TV preacher Pat Robertson's Regent University law school, has led the legal battle to plant the Ten Commandants in county courthouses across the nation. North, an apostle of the creed called Christian Reconstructionism, is one of the most influential elders of American fundamentalism.

"I don't want to capture their (mainstream Americans') system. I want to replace it," fumed North to a cheering audience. North has called for the stoning of gays and nonbelievers (rocks are cheap and plentiful, he has observed). Both friends and foes label him "Scary Gary."

Are we in danger of an American Taliban? Probably not today. But Alabama's "Ten Commandments Judge" Roy Moore is aligned with this congregation, and one-third of Alabama Republicans who voted in the June primary supported him. When you see the South Dakota legislature outlaw abortions, the Reconstructionist agenda is at work. The movement's greatest success is in Christian home schooling, where many, if not most, of the textbooks are Reconstructionist-authored tomes.

Moreover, the Reconstructionists are the folks behind attacks on science and public education. They're allied with proselytizers who have tried to convert Air Force cadets -- future pilots with fingers on nuclear triggers -- into religious zealots. Like the communists of the 1930s, they exert tremendous stealth political gravity, drawing many sympathizers in their wake, and their friends now dominate the Republican Party in many states.

A Harvard-bred lawyer whose most famous client is Alabama's Judge Moore, Titus told the Toccoa gathering that the Second Amendment envisions the assassination of "tyrants;" that's why we have guns. Tyranny, of course, is subjective to these folks. Their imposition of a theocratic state would not, by their standards, be tyranny. Public schools, on the other hand, to them are tyrannical.

Hosting the "Creation to Revelation... Connecting the Dots" event was a Powder Springs, Ga., publishing house, American Vision, whose pontiff is Gary DeMar. The outfit touts the antebellum South as a righteous society and favors the reintroduction of some forms of slavery (it's sanctioned in the Bible, Reconstructionists say) -- which may explain the blindingly monochrome audience at the gathering.

DeMar christened the gathering with invective against science.

"Evolution is as religious as Christianity," he said, a claim that certainly must amaze 99.99 percent of the scientific community. Science is irrelevant to these folks.

Everything they need to know about the universe and the origin of man is in the first two chapters of Genesis. They know the answer before any question is asked. DeMar's spin is what he calls a clash of "worldviews." According to DeMar and his speakers, God sanctions only their worldview. And that worldview is a hash of enforcing Old Testament Mosaic law (except when it comes to chowing down on pork barbecue), rewriting American history to endorse theocracy and explaining politics by the loopy theories of the John Birch Society.

Six-day, "young earth" creationism is the only acceptable doctrine for Christians. Even "intelligent design" or "old earth" creationism are compromises with evil secularism.Public education is satanic and must be destroyed.The First Amendment was intended to keep the federal government from imposing a national religion, but states should be free to foster a religious creed. (Several states did that during the colonial period and the nation's early days, a model the Reconstructionists want to emulate.) The Founding Fathers intended to protect only the liberties of the established ultra-conservative denominations of that time. Expanding the list to include "liberal" Protestant denominations, much less Catholics, Jews and (gasp!) atheists, is a corruption of the Founders' intent.

Education earned the most vitriol at the conference. Effusing that the Religious Right has captured politics and much of the media, North proclaimed: "The only thing they (secularists) have still got a grip on is the university system." Academic doctorates, he contended, are a conspiracy fomented by the Rockefeller family. All academic programs (except, he said, engineering) are now dominated by secularists and Darwinists.

"Marxists in the English departments!" he ranted. "Close every public school in America!"

Among North's most quoted writings was this ditty from 1982: "[W]e must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation...which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." Titus followed that party line when he proclaimed that the First Amendment is limited to guaranteeing "the right to criticize the government," but "free expression is not in the Constitution." Like North, Titus sees public education as decidedly satanic. Also, welfare. He contended the Founding Fathers -- and Americans today -- owe their "first duties to God. It's not just worship. It's education... welfare to the poor. Welfare belongs exclusively to God. Why do schools fail? They're trying to do the business of God. Medicaid goes. Education goes. The church gets back to doing what it should do." And what should the church be doing According to these self-appointed arbiters of God's will, running our lives. And stoning those who disagree.

At the Toccoa conference, DeMar organized several debates -- and he commendably invited articulate opponents of his creed.

One was Ed Buckner, a retired Georgia State University professor, unabashed atheist and a member of the Atlanta Freethought Society. He debated Bill Federer, who makes a living trying to prove America's founders intended this to be a Christian nation.

Buckner offered to concede the debate if Federer could disprove any one of four points: Americans don't agree on religion, human judgment is imperfect, religious truth can't be determined by votes or force and freedom is worth protecting. Federer ran from the challenge, and instead offered a litany of historic quotes showing that most of America's founders believed in God.

Federer never got the point that if, as he argued, government should endorse his faith today, tomorrow officials might decide to ban his beliefs.

The other debate featured University of Georgia biologist Mark Farmer versus Australian "young earth" creationist Carl Wieland. Farmer, religious himself, tried to explain that no evidence had ever damaged evolutionary theory -- at best, creationists point to gaps in knowledge.

"Yes, we don't know the answers to everything," Farmer told me. "That's what science is all about, finding answers."

It would be easy to dismiss the Reconstructionists as the lunatic fringe, no more worrisome than the remnants of the Prohibition Party. But, in fact, they have rather extraordinary entrée and influence with top-tier Religious Right leaders and institutions.

James Dobson's Focus on the Family is now selling DeMar's book, America's Christian Heritage. Dobson himself has a warm relationship with many in the movement, and he has admitted voting for Reconstructionist presidential candidate Howard Phillips in 1996.

TV preacher Robertson has mentioned reading North's writings, and he has hired Reconstructionists as professors at Regent University. Jerry Falwell employs Reconstructionists to teach at Liberty University. Roger Schultz, the chair of Liberty's History Department, writes regularly for Faith for all of Life, the leading Reconstructionist journal.

In short, Dobson, Robertson, Falwell and the Southern Baptist Convention (the nation's largest Protestant denomination) may not agree with everything the Reconstructionists advocate, but they sure don't seem to mind hanging out with this openly theocratic, anti-democratic crowd.

It's enough for Americans who believe in personal freedom and religious liberty to get worried about -- before the first stones start flying.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 9:50 AM

KANEMAN

As one of your former students, I hope you put more time into the class room as apposed to this shit.*kidding of course*

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Misbehaven- "I don't mean to alarm anyone, but..."

Quote:
Americans find atheists to be one of the most untrustworthy brands of people around. Just to get an idea, here are the answers from a 2005 poll that asked whether “your overall opinion of [the group] is very favorable, mostly favorable, mostly unfavorable, or very unfavorable?”

Group

Very favorable (%)
Catholics 24
Jews 23
Evangelical Christians 17
Muslim Americans 9
Atheists, that is, people who don’t believe in God 7

forums.livingwithstyle.com/t313251-atheists-most-untrustworthy-people.html

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:06 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Bet Pagans scored lower

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:14 AM

MISBEHAVEN

I've seen polls like this before. I even saw one where Christian parents said they would find it more preferable for their children to marry a Satanist than to marry an Atheist. I guess the logic being that if you believe in Satan, then you believe in God. So what, they might still be able to save them? I also find it fascinating that so many people think if you're an Atheist, then you're somehow lacking in morals and ethics. It's a notion that's particularly amusing to me, when you think of all the horrific things people do in the name of their religions.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:34 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Damn. Now I don't have Roy Moore to point to and laugh at when I meet folks from Alabama.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:58 AM

MAGHAFFAR

Gotta say, I applaud MISBEHAVEN for pointing out these things about the Far Right Christian fringe... Known about them for awhile. Scary is not the half of it. Only shows how narrow-mindedness, fear and ignorance can warp the follower of ANY belief system -- and let's not forget the atheists in Russia and China and elsewhere who have ably added to the death toll perpertrated by fanatical and not-so fanatical religious types throughout history. And it amazes me how the Aryan-nations types don't get the same level of fear quotient as Muslims, when all those armored car heists in the Pacific Northwest that make page 56 in the papers are often the source of Christian white supremacist fund-raising efforts. And that's not even bringing up their whole Impending race-war idea & overthrow of the Zionist Occupation Govt thang.

On the subject of whether you believe in God or not, I've found that many atheists / agnostics reject God based primarily on the reaction they have to (usually) Christian history. I know cuz I was one of 'em for a good while growing up. But if people can examine the true teachings of Islam with an open mind they are almost always astonished at how rational, humanistic (as in pertaining to the welfare of human beings, not existentialism), scientific and spiritual it really is. Course, it helps to study the RIGHT presentation of Islam, and therein I'm biased, cuz if I'd studied Islam from the Wahhabi (Saudi) perspective or the Taliban or similar ignorant yahoo corruptions of Islam, I would not be a Muslim today. Thankfully I studied Ahmadiyyat Islam first, and everything made sense. And from someone who was extremely anti-organized religion, that's saying a lot.

As for the whole "Our Founding Fathers were Christians" line, that just cracks me up every time. I always tell such people to go look up the term "Jeffersonian Bible" on Google and see what you get, or read Thomas Paine's quote about how "Any belief that shocks the mind of a child [referring to the innocent murder of Jesus (the literal Son of God AND also 100% God incarnate in the flesh) as atonement for the sins of mankind] cannot be true." Paraphrased, but basically that's it. The Founding Fathers were no more right wing fundamentalist Christians than regular Christians are represented by the likes of Timothy McVeigh, Metzger, Butler or Scary Gary and his fanatical crowd.

Jus 'nother Browncoat opinion here...

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Monday, August 21, 2006 12:41 PM

MISBEHAVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by MAGhaffar:
and let's not forget the atheists in Russia and China and elsewhere who have ably added to the death toll perpertrated by fanatical and not-so fanatical religious types throughout history

That's all too true, but it's important to make the distinction that these nations were/are following a Communist ideology that, in my opinion, was the motivation for so much of the horrors they visited/visit on others, not their Atheism. They were/are not the secular humanists that many Atheists, such as myself, identify themselves as being.

Quote:
As for the whole "Our Founding Fathers were Christians" line, that just cracks me up every time. I always tell such people to go look up the term "Jeffersonian Bible" on Google and see what you get, or read Thomas Paine's quote about how "Any belief that shocks the mind of a child [referring to the innocent murder of Jesus (the literal Son of God AND also 100% God incarnate in the flesh) as atonement for the sins of mankind] cannot be true." Paraphrased, but basically that's it. The Founding Fathers were no more right wing fundamentalist Christians than regular Christians are represented by the likes of Timothy McVeigh, Metzger, Butler or Scary Gary and his fanatical crowd.

I'm in complete agreement with you here. Below are just a few of the quotes of our "Non-Christian Founding Fathers." Even the ones who believe in God wouldn't be considered Christian by the standards of so many contemporary Christians.

The early Presidents and patriots were generally Deists or Unitarians, believing in some form of impersonal Providence but rejecting the divinity of Jesus and the much of the Old and New testaments.

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestos encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the war of Independence:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

James Madison, fourth president and father of the Constitution, was not religious in any conventional sense. "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
From:
The Madisons by Virginia Moore, P. 43 (1979, McGraw-Hill Co. New York, NY) quoting a letter by JM to William Bradford April 1, 1774, and James Madison, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Joseph Gardner, p. 93, (1974, Newsweek, New York, NY) Quoting Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments by JM, June 1785.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian."
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 1:10 PM

MAGHAFFAR

RE: MISBEHAVEN'S list of Founding Father quotes...

Much appreciated, MSBHVN... I will copy and paste these babies in e-mails to some friends I know who occasionally raise that old "Our Founding Fathers were fundamentalist Christians" line. Thanks for the research work. Ignorance is bliss... until the truth crops up and kicks it in the head. Then it's time to crawl away like a bitty little punk...
- Ghaffar

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Monday, August 21, 2006 1:26 PM

MISBEHAVEN

You're most welcome GHAFFAR, and thanks for helpin' to set the record straight.

"The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation."
-Bertrand Russell

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
For some time now, I've thought of Christian fundamentalists as being simply comical. I think I'm going to have to revisit that opinion. These people have gone from ridiculous to dangerous.

You shoulda been with me in Florida, or worse, Utah!

While my own beliefs are my own business and rather singular, I do get along well with those who behave decently to their fellow man, and this brings me into contact with a lot of pagans that, while idealistic and admirable, have some damn-fool ideas about pacifist solutions to problems like rabid fundies.

In Florida it came down to shots fired at them and by them during ritual, while doubtful they were aimed at anyone, it took a malenky bit of the ole ultraviolence to convince the thumpers to leave alone and get left alone, which came after this particular incident, and left a few vehicles damaged besides.

NEW PORT RICHEY, Fla. (UPI) -- A witches' ceremony came to an abrupt
halt over the weekend when angry neighbors and members of the nature
worshiping coven exchanged gunshots, authorities said.

The witches said the attack Sunday was just the latest in a series of
violent acts against their group and its island shrine near Moon Lake,
northeast of New Port Richey.

Five witches from the Coven Lothlorien told Pasco County deputies
they had just finished a ritual seeking protection from threats when
gunfire ripped through the trees surrounding their ceremonial grounds at
about 11 p.m.

No one was wounded and no arrests were made, the Pasco Sheriff's
Office said.

Witches, or wiccans, are nature worshipers who honor celestial cycles
and the seasons, said Ron Parshley, president of National Association of
Pantheists.

Wiccans' ceremonies include torch-lit dancing, chanting and burning
of incense, he said.

"We heard the bullets ripping past and we all crouched down on the
ground and started crawling back to my house on our hands and knees,"
said Kassie Cornwell, a witch and a registered nurse.

The small island sits in the middle of a pond at the end of a lush
pathway behind Cornwell's house. Only one other house stands within 200
yards of the pond, which backs up to a vast stretch of swamp.

Members said Sunday's ritual was in response to threats they received
the day before. Cornwell's house had been pelted with eggs, she said,
and a note was left in her front yard Saturday.

The note warned the group to stop their "Satan worshiping or be
prepared for worse. Next time we won't stop at eggs."

Another note said, "We are the ultimate enemy. We are out to kill!"

Cornwell, 43, said she heard people cursing, calling them Satanists
and other names during Sunday's attack.

When the gunfire started, coven member Curtis Niles of Spring Hill
grabbed a shotgun and fired several rounds in the air, Cornwell said.

Neighbor Art Gray, 39, told a sheriff's deputy he heard shots coming
from Cornwell's property and he fired back, also in the air, to warn the
people away from his house.

Several of Cornwell's neighbors said they believed the group
practices Satanism and sacrifices animals. But Cornwell said the group
doesn't allow animals near their worshiping area.

She said the group's credo is to "do what you will, but harm none."

Parshley said the group has "nothing to do with Satanism."

The coven has worshiped at Cornwell's property since she bought her
home a year ago. She said the worship area has been desecrated six or
seven times.

Mary Niles, another member, said the coven is named for the tree that
the elves inhabited in "The Hobbit," J.R. Tolkien's novel about an
imaginary dwarf-like people.

Detective Jerry Puig, a religion specialist for the Pasco Sheriff's
Office who has interviewed coven members, said there is a big difference
between Satanism and the group's religion.

"Wicca is all nature worship; worship of the sun, the wind, the moon,"
Puig said. "There is no blood and no devils involved."
---------------
Copyright 1990 United Press International

Utah, on the other hand was worse, any research of the mid-1980's might give you an idea of what was going on, and due to the nature of some of the incidents, the specifics won't be detailed by anyone involved.

A religion in and of itself isn't dangerous, but some of the people who practice it might be, what I call "crusaders" - they're types always looking to hurt someone, and they need an excuse, ANY excuse, to ease their tattered little consciences so they can sleep at night.

Zealots of all types have enlisted these people, and as long as these crusaders can mouth the words and make it look good, that's all well and good with leaders who are after power, and can depend on these folks for fanatic loyalty and on-demand violence.

And when a pack of misguided or weak-willed follower types get caught up in one of these whirlwinds of zealotry, power and crusaderism, bloody disaster results shortly thereafter regardless of what belief system the wolfpack is based on.

I consider this to be a social malady rather than a religious one because ANY religion, or even NO religion could be spun for such a purpose, and nor do I consider the individuals involved to be particularly religious, merely sociopathic and hateful.

Antimason does a decent job of representing one rather devout section of christian belief around here, and held up to these people misrepresenting a belief for gain, you can see they're not only different animals, but whole other species apart.

These zealots are neither fundamental, nor christian, in my opinion - that's just the mask they wear to obtain the most followers, is all.

Basically the high school jock bully crowd, 10-20 years later, same mentality, same tactics, same end result.

-Frem

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:27 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by misbehaven:
I also find it fascinating that so many people think if you're an Atheist, then you're somehow lacking in morals and ethics.

Indeed. I've have that one thrown at me from time to time, back during my pure agnostic days.

"There can be no morality without God, because God decides what is good and what is evil."

My answer to that is "How convenient this is for those whose appointed job is to speak for God."

I have found that those who look to God to decide Good and Evil for them generally aren't interested in morality. They just want rules. They don't want to do good because it's right; they just want to do what God wants them to because otherwise he can throw them in a bad place.

No worries about right or moral. Just the voice of authority, so they don't have to think.

"Any religion that teaches there is only heaven or hell is gonna be a haven for manic-depressives." -- Simon Jester

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 7:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

We used to have public stonings back in the '60s. They were called smoke-ins. Don't remember much else about them, for some reason.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

But people were always hungry afterwards.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 1:40 PM

MISBEHAVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
We used to have public stonings back in the '60s. They were called smoke-ins. Don't remember much else about them, for some reason.

Some still do, but not me of course.

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.

Hunter S. Thompson

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 6:55 AM

FLAMETREE

Education earned the most vitriol at the conference. Effusing that the Religious Right has captured politics and much of the media, North proclaimed: "The only thing they (secularists) have still got a grip on is the university system." Academic doctorates, he contended, are a conspiracy fomented by the Rockefeller family. All academic programs (except, he said, engineering) are now dominated by secularists and Darwinists.

How dare he!

Engineers aren't seculists? Least religious bunch of people you will ever meet. Should know I am one.

The Jews,, Christians and Muslims have it all wrong.
The world is only devided into two, those who believe and have no brains and those who have brains and do not believe.

11th Century poet.

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