Position reversal by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Position reversal

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Saturday, August 26, 2006 00:16
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Thursday, August 24, 2006 4:52 AM

Okay, I confess I gave Senator Allen the benefit of the doubt, and was wrong.

According to a wikipeida entry after the event, 'macaca' is a Tunisian ethnic slur. Since Sen. Allen is of Tunisian decent, it's an issue.

Can anyone verify this with an earlier date?

I would like to see some reference to the term prior to the incident to be sure, but it's looking bad for Sen. Allen.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:02 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

"Let's give a welcome to Macaca here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia."

Dreamtrove, there is no doubt in my mind that he knew what he was saying was insulting and derogatory.

I do not have a date for you, but I have consulted several friends in the UK from India, Pakistan and Tunisia and they all agree that it is the equivalent of the N word.

edit: excellent editorial http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006
/08/20/EDG0SJ799L1.DTL

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:22 AM

DREAMTROVE

okay, so far, I've been search indexes of racial slurs used in africa pre-allen slur.

Objectively, it's looking bad for the allen-is-a-racist crowd. I found a 'Makwerekwere' used in South Africa, meaning 'barbarian' but someone has to get that ina distorted form up to tunisia. It shouldn't be more known to paksitanis if it's anti-negro. No one claimed it was anti-pakistani. I think that there's a real possibility that Allen was set up here. I'm finding nothing on pre-Allen references to it's use in tunisia, which is what the wikipedia articles.

There's a saying in Tennessee, at least there's a saying in Texas, and I think there's a saying

Fool me once... well... shame on you... fool me twice... uh... can't get fooled again.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:29 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Dreamtrove,

I have found that in Europe and certainly the UK, those of Indian and or Pakistan origin are considered "black". They would certainly be sensitive to such ephithets.

FYI - I seem to remember hearing French friends calling a Morrocan a Makak. I believe it is a form of macaque or macaca.

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

one of the Forsaken TM

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:53 AM

DREAMTROVE

Hmm.

I'm losing convincedness as I search. I went to an online epithet dictionary which didn't have any variation. A macaques is a monkey, but I unless pakistanis spend a fair amount of time in africa, they won't be running into it.

I think I have to back down on this one. It seems entirely likely, even if such a term exists somewhere, that the whole thing was a prank played on Allen by the man in question, who was, after all, spying on the campaign. Someone tells allen, allen falls for it. He's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But the claim, the specific claim, in 500 wikipedia entries is that it was a tunisian ethnic slur prior to the incident, something I can find no reference to. Any one can create wikipedia entries, including the perpetrator of the hoax, if it is indeed a hoax. And if it is, the perp has to go down every bit as far as allen. Not just the event, but inventing an ethnic slur? I think that a head is going to roll, I'm just not sure whose yet.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:58 AM

KANEMAN

I, being from Tunisia, will weigh in on this. It is an ethic slur only in the way it's said and the mindset of the receiver. It's the equivalent of a Croatian looking at a Serbian and saying..."YOU SERB!"....If the Serbian is safe in his own skin..He may say "Yes I am thank you for noticing"..If he is a little touchy ..He may take it as being talked down to. What it is not, is the Nig*r equivalent. A lot depends on connotation as well as contention.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:01 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Dreamtrove

The man pointed out the only ethnic looking person in the room and used a derogatory term and "welcomed him to America" that in itself is insulting and racially biased.

Whether or not he knew the term Macaca was an epithet or whether or not he thought he and his people "made it up". Its intention was still derogatory. The entire statement was insulting.

Since it was widely reported and witnessed by many, I don't think the "lone American of Indian descent" was "setting" the Allen up.

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

one of the Forsaken TM

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:04 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Kaneman

and here I thought you was a "good ole boy"

PS - psst - are you stalking me? cause its freaking me out!

Back on topic - epithets are in the mind of the receiver. The word means whatever they perceive it to mean.

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

one of the Forsaken TM

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:05 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
"Let's give a welcome to Macaca here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia."
one of the Forsaken TM

I think the "Welcome to America..." bit is being taken out of context a bit. Prior to this bite, Allen mentions that his opponent is hanging out with Hollywood movie mogulsand staying inside the Beltway, unlike Allen, who has been out in Virginia. He then welcomes his opponent's man to the "real world" where Allen's campaign takes place.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:13 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

RICHMOND, Aug. 14 -- Virginia Sen. George Allen (R) apologized Monday for what his opponent's campaign said were demeaning and insensitive comments the senator made to a 20-year-old volunteer of Indian descent.

At a campaign rally in southwest Virginia on Friday, Allen repeatedly called a volunteer for Democrat James Webb "macaca." During the speech in Breaks, near the Kentucky border, Allen began by saying that he was "going to run this campaign on positive, constructive ideas" and then pointed at S.R. Sidarth in the crowd.

"This fellow here, over here with the yellow shirt, macaca, or whatever his name is. He's with my opponent. He's following us around everywhere. And it's just great," Allen said, as his supporters began to laugh. After saying that Webb was raising money in California with a "bunch of Hollywood movie moguls," Allen said, "Let's give a welcome to macaca, here. Welcome to America and the real world of Virginia." Allen then began talking about the "war on terror."

Yes he was discussing Webb in California, I don't think though that the "Welcome to America" is out of context. He could have easily said "Welcome to the real world" to make the point that it was not LALA land.

Instead he points to the only (according to reports - I have not seen footage) non WASP looking person in the room.

edited to add one more thought - lets stipulate that Macaca only means monkey - for the moment. Go into a racially mixed arena - walk up to a black man and call him monkey. Is that a racial slur? Would it be tolerated?

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

one of the Forsaken TM

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:22 AM

DREAMTROVE

Mrs. Mal,

I think that the only *democrat* in the vicinity may have been setting him up.

Kane,

You're making it look bad for Allen. If people in Tunisia do use this term, then it's inappropriate. Allen's only viable name was that he thought it was his name. He starts out with "this guy, macaca, i think his name is macaca." If he didn't think the guys name was macaca, then it was allen's bad.

But I don't buy most of this. We all saw the video. I feel like the PC nazi brigade here. I saw it and the after flutter is stinking of hoax. endless reference pages defining the term and detailing its meaning which appeared the next day, and nothing before that, it looks bad.

I guess I'm still undecided. I don't think Allen is dumb enough to think that an indian is black. I'm not sure, it's too weird on both sides.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:25 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Dreamtrove

Did the only "Democrat in the vicinity" put the word into Allen's mouth?

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 7:41 AM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You're making it look bad for Allen. If people in Tunisia do use this term, then it's inappropriate. Allen's only viable name was that he thought it was his name. He starts out with "this guy, macaca, i think his name is macaca." If he didn't think the guys name was macaca, then it was allen's bad.

What Allen actually said was, "This fellow here, over here with the yellow shirt - Macaca, or whatever his name is - he's with my opponent." [my transcription so the punctuation and grammar are slightly different from published transcripts]

There's a difference between what you wrote, "i think his name is macaca" and what Allen said, "or whatever his name is."

More on the rest of the thread later, but I just wanted to correct an inaccuracy.

* edited to change translation to transcription

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

HHOOO KAY!

Didn't we already have this discussion about a watermelon hat?

But I agree with FMF.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:52 PM

DREAMTROVE

I'm still trying to decide.
I'm no fan of George Allen by any stretch.
If this is a PC police set up then it's despicable, and it would be set up by allen's opponent and allen should win. If it's not a set up than allen is a pig and should lose.

FMF is actually losing her own argument with a vengeances, and she is only helped by Kane losing his just as fast.

Allen's worst enemy here is Hannity, who in making excuses for Allen makes him look incredibly guilty. His greatest ally is the internet, on which I can find hundred of references to this as a tunisian slur, all conveniently posted after the incident.

The marching PC police really are up there with Allen on the offensive scale.

There are two things here which have not been proven wrong:
1. Someone may have pranked Allen, who is none too swift.
2. I can not a reference to Macaca as a tunisian slur in print with a definate date prior to the incident.

But my assumption is that it's Allen's own foot in mouth, whether he intended it or not, because I beasically don't think much of him.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 5:56 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

FMF is actually losing her own argument with a vengeances, and she is only helped by Kane losing his just as fast.

How am I doing that? The man made the statement. No one forced him to say it. No one stood over him and whispered in his ear - hey call the only ethnic man in the room a Macaca and then welcome him to America.

Kind of hard to "lose" this argument. He said it. It is inherenyly racist. He is a big boy and a politician and should know better.

edited to put in a quotation mark

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I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:14 PM

DREAMTROVE

The question was, I suppose, was he punked. We all saw the video clip. When the PC police come in, it's like 'one wrong word, no matter what the reason, and you're career is over' who would want to play by those rules?

Certainly not me. I don't think anyone on this forum would pass by those rules, I don't think anyone on the crew of firefly would. Either he's a racist or he isn't, but the people who already had the noose strung up before the incident started are somewhat suspect.

The whole manner of the later responses really pissed me off. Not the early ones, I just wanted to admit to being wrong, and hopefully find out if there was proof that the wikipedia entries were true, on which I still have nothing.

I certainly don't want to waste any time defending George Allen who I truly can't stand. I just didn't think the PC police should be allowed to win an election by smear tactics.

I do think that the left should self-examine on the whole PC thing, which kind of brings up a sort of viceral reaction.

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Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:45 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The question was, I suppose, was he punked. We all saw the video clip. When the PC police come in, it's like 'one wrong word, no matter what the reason, and you're career is over' who would want to play by those rules?

Certainly not me. I don't think anyone on this forum would pass by those rules, I don't think anyone on the crew of firefly would. Either he's a racist or he isn't, but the people who already had the noose strung up before the incident started are somewhat suspect.

The whole manner of the later responses really pissed me off. Not the early ones, I just wanted to admit to being wrong, and hopefully find out if there was proof that the wikipedia entries were true, on which I still have nothing.

I certainly don't want to waste any time defending George Allen who I truly can't stand. I just didn't think the PC police should be allowed to win an election by smear tactics.

I do think that the left should self-examine on the whole PC thing, which kind of brings up a sort of viceral reaction.

Welcome to the YouTube generation.

I'm going off on a tangent to illustrate a point. Senator Boxer, from my state, went to Connecticut to campaign for Senator Lieberman before the Connecticut primary. A Connecticut citizen videotaped her answering questions as she was walking with Lieberman. Within less than an hour, the video was posted on YouTube. Her answers were dissected on-line (at firedoglake and other places) and California residents started calling her various offices to complain about her statements. All of this happened the SAME day. Probably before she even got back to DC.

The message for politicians is clear. If you see a video camera, be careful what you say. And don't be surprised if you get asked questions about what you said. And don't be surprised if that video is posted to the web.

We're tired of waiting for reporters to synthesize and spin what politicians tell them. We want to cut out the middle-man. Put up the raw footage. Let us make up our own minds.

Now to bring it back to Senator Allen. Nobody put words in his mouth. He saw the video camera. He himself has people following around Webb with video cameras.

When this clip got posted to the web there was a collective, "WTF?" that went around liberal blogs. What the hell was macaca? You look in the dictionary and it says, "monkey." That can't be good.

And when the Allen campaign said that it was a variant of "mohawk" and that it referred to the videographer's haircut that was like throwing chum in the water. A picture of the videographer was posted and it was clear that his hair wasn't in a mohawk.

In other words, the lame ass excuses that the Allen campaign came up with sent a message that there might be some there there.

Does that mean he was punked? No. It means that Senator Allen gave a healthy chunk of ammunition to people who don't think he should be re-elected and they happened to have a platform to spread that gaffe.

As I posted in the other thread, I don't see this as affecting Senator Allen in his Presidential campaign. What it does is reinforce some things in the minds of people who already don't support him. It's consistent with past behavior.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 4:23 AM

DREAMTROVE

Sorry, I got ticked off at all the Salem Witchhunt, and I was a little peaved at the Alliance-hugging in another thread. I just let 'em have it, and now I'm ready to give up.

YouTube scares me, it's like television re-invented as a beeniebaby fad. It's addictive, and send people to watch more video than they're ever watch normally. Also, I see the glorious text revolution being eaten by the mind boob tube again.

But I get your point. I disagree that it means he wasn't punked, someone might have told him that was the guy's name. I really think Allen is immensely stupid, which should be reason enough to not vote for him.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 1:51 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey DT,

I gave just a very short response earlier b/c that's what I had time for (my typing is laborious).

But I thought about the specifics and came up with this:

Was it said?
Yes, it was said twice, in fact. This isn't a case of something being manufactured or transformed with video magic (like Howard Dean's yell was).

Was it racist?
I'd say probably. The various and contradictory explanations given are not credible. But even if it was not specifically racist, in this context it was demeaning to the only dark face in the crowd. Plus, see (significance) below.

Was he set-up?
I'm not sure how that could have happened. Sidarth was assigned to follow Allen around and videograph his speeches. (Allen's own campaign does the same thing to Webb.) Sidarth was a familiar if not necessarily welcome face. Allen said it wasn't that he thought it was Sidarth's name.

What is the significance?
Allen has a long-standing and none too private history of racism. In this case, it would be an exposure of something meaningful.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 2:01 PM

CAUSAL

I personally blame the Bush Administration.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

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Friday, August 25, 2006 2:45 PM

FELLOWTRAVELER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm still trying to decide.
I'm no fan of George Allen by any stretch.
If this is a PC police set up then it's despicable, and it would be set up by allen's opponent and allen should win. If it's not a set up than allen is a pig and should lose.

Sorry to repeat myself, but Allen's opponent, recently turned Democrat Jim Webb has been accused of (and did) something similar in the Democratic Primary.

His campaign published a cartoon depicting his Jewish opponent with a big hooked nose and cash falling out of his pockets while accusing him of outsourcing jobs overseas for personal profit. Yet, there is no uproar over the Democrat being an anti-semite.

At the very least, both these guys have exploited or are exploiting the bigotry of their constituents to win votes, which makes them both douche bags...

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Friday, August 25, 2006 3:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If that's true then - flush 'em both.

I did a little reading around. Apparently it is common practice for politicians to tailor their message and persona to the audience. For example, one might go in front of, say, a small all-white male group and do a little redneck good-old-boy routine. Then go in front of a larger male-female white audience and be an upstanding god-fearing gentleman. The go in front of an even larger audience and be a honorable statesman.

So videography is an important informational tool for voters. You don't want to know just what they are saying TO YOU, it's more important to know what they are saying in general.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 3:25 PM

FELLOWTRAVELER

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If that's true then - flush 'em both.

I did a little reading around. Apparently it is common practice for politicians to tailor their message and persona to the audience. For example, one might go in front of, say, a small all-white male group and do a little redneck good-old-boy routine. Then go in front of a larger male-female white audience and be an upstanding god-fearing gentleman. The go in front of an even larger audience and be a honorable statesman.

Yeah, I met Allen when he was running for the Senate the first time at VA Tech football game. His southern accent was noticeably thicker than it was in his "State of the Commonwealth" speeches.

Funny, how he picked up any southern accent at all, living in California and Chicago until he was 20 something...

Edit - There are actually a couple of distinct accents in VA. One is the traditional southern, the other is very much like a Canadian accent (aboot, hoose, etc...). If you pay attention, Senator Allen occasionally changes that, as well. It's fantastic. Always makes me smile.

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Friday, August 25, 2006 3:26 PM

DREAMTROVE

Rue,

In my digging I found out that Allen had a confederate flag in his room as a teenager, and though I had a soviet flag in my bedroom as a teen, and still do, so by itself it means nothing, but you add it all up and Allen starts growing pointed ears and a squiggly tail.

Sorry for blowing up earlier. The hhooo kay attitude, the witch-hunt-i-ness and as I said, all the alliance hugging, ie, pro-big govt. that was bouncing around numerous threads were getting to me. Pesky liberals.

Fellow,

I had heard other comments Webb's racism. I think it's time for a third party candidate. The problem is, third parties are horribly disorganize, and gold ring grabbing quixotic presidential campaigns eat up all their resources. If they were smart they'd have people waiting in the wings in ever race for just such an opportunity.

Quote:
Apparently it is common practice for politicians to tailor their message and persona to the audience. For example, one might go in front of, say, a small all-white male group and do a little redneck good-old-boy routine. Then go in front of a larger male-female white audience and be an upstanding god-fearing gentleman. The go in front of an even larger audience and be a honorable statesman.

Yeah, sure, but it's not acceptable. John McCain said he was talking to a redneck crowd and someone asked him what he thought the battleflag represented, and he said 'southern pride.' He talked about it later on a talk show, and said, he felt ashamed because it wasn't that he thought they would lynch him if he was honest and said 'slavery' but he said, he did it because he wanted their votes.

But there's a limit. If you go to the nazi crowd and say the jew is screwing you over for money, then that becomes your campaign position.

From a democratic standpoint, that's probably a position that one could take. David Duke, for example. But if it's your position, then it has to be your open position. You shouldn't be allowed to stealth your extreme views into office because that's misrepresentation. Come to think of it...

Now I don't think that Bush is a racist. But I'm sure he misled us on something, just can't put my finger on it...

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 12:16 AM

FELLOWTRAVELER

Additionally, his sister has written a book calling him a real scumbag. I havn't read it, but heard it mentioned on "Tucker" or "Hardball".

I don't know if she's on the level, but it can't be good sign when your own family hates you...

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