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Originally posted by Chewie:
I just watched my local news and was VERY surprised to see that to days vote in congress about these issues were NOT reported AT ALL!! They talked briefly about Congress voting for Bush's wire tap bill, but not ONE WORD about the (what I've come to call) Bush Torture Bill.

WHAT THE HECK!! Why isn't this being screamed about from the hills? Why aren't these people pissed off??? Why aren't others fighting this? Has this administration paid everyone off??? I turned between three local stations and NOT A ONE Reported a thing!

Did anyone else hear anything on their local news?

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Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Anyone know if the Daily Show reported it? If anyone would, my money is on them.

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Originally posted by Chewie:
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that Congress has voted to allow the President of the United States of America to throw out the Geneva Convention? He can now accuse anyone of being a terrorist. Hold them indefinitely, TORTURE them, and NEVER has to prove that they are in fact terrorists?

Am I the only one scared by this?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
This is a war that we did NOT start

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Originally posted by SignyM:
...It also gets rid of habeas corpus. Look into it. The reason why the Senate Republicans voted for it wsa because they hope it will get shot down by SCOTUS.

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Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the senior Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, arguing for an amendment to strike a provision to bar suspects from challenging their detentions in court, said it “is as legally abusive of the rights guaranteed in the Constitution as the actions at Abu Ghraib, Guantánamo and secret prisons were physically abusive of detainees.”

The amendment failed, 51 to 49.

Even some Republicans who voted for the bill said they expected the Supreme Court to strike down the legislation because of the provision barring court detainees’ challenges, an outcome that would send the legislation right back to Congress.

“We should have done it right, because we’re going to have to do it again,” said Senator Gordon H. Smith, Republican of Oregon, who voted to strike the provision and yet supported the bill.

The measure would broaden the definition of enemy combatants beyond the traditional definition used in wartime, to include noncitizens living legally in the United States as well as those in foreign countries and anyone determined to be an enemy combatant under criteria defined by the president or secretary of defense.

It would strip at Guantánamo detainees of the habeas right to challenge their detention in court, relying instead on procedures known as combatant status review trials. Those trials have looser rules of evidence than the courts.

It would allow of evidence seized in this country or abroad without a search warrant to be admitted in trials.

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...except for the terrorists and the people who love them.

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...When the 1st innocent citizen gets caught up in this so called threat to our rights, THEN I'll give notice.

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Originally posted by FellowTraveler:

Don't you understand that we won't ever hear of innocent citizens getting caught up in this because they cannot challenge their detainment? That's the point!

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Originally posted by Eric:
Well, there's Maher Arar, but I guess he doesn't count since he's not a 'Merrican citizen, just an insignificant Canadian.

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Originally posted by rue:
I find it interesting that is it the BUSH fanatics that support this bill. What is it about them that makes them willing to trade everything - freedom, security, integrity, humanity, even sanity - for a dull-witted, drug-addled sociopath?

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Originally posted by SergeantX:

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Originally posted by rue:
I find it interesting that is it the BUSH fanatics that support this bill. What is it about them that makes them willing to trade everything - freedom, security, integrity, humanity, even sanity - for a dull-witted, drug-addled sociopath?

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This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again

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And I'd add - greed.

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Auraptor: Fear of the Alien Menace.

Fear works wonders on people's minds.

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Originally posted by Glueman:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
This is a war that we did NOT start

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"It's not what we say, it's what we do."

We started this by "meddling" in the political affairs of the middle east and our appetite for OIL!

"We Meddle" said by River in "Serenity"

2 Words...habeas corpus...If Auraptor was placed in prison for no reason, would anyone hear his screams?

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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This is what's been on my mind. What makes fascism such an enduring concept? Why do societies return to it again and again

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Fear.

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One can argue that all actions are either motivated by "fear" or "attachment." (Buddhist talk.)

The question is, fear of what?

I would propose that fascism recurs because of a fear of responsibility and awful, hard work. In other words, laziness. It is so much easier to entrust our defense and security to a benevolent government than to take responsibility to arm and secure ourselves. And once you give the government that job, it is only a matter of time before they decide to secure society against its own members, i.e. fascism.

I have said before that an anarchistic or truly libertarian society is a shitty way to live. It would be very much like living on Serenity dodging the Alliance, Niska, and Reavers. Most people don't want to live that way. They want to live on a Core planet with museums and hospitals. They are willing to pay the price.

And I wouldn't blame this law on Bush alone. He isn't in the Senate and the House. We ALL failed.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky
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Of course the people dont want war...that is understood. But voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. -- Hermann Goering

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.

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rue wrote:
Friday, September 29, 2006 14:50

AUraptor, I recall he was a fervent Bush supporter even before 9/11. Unfortunately the archives don't go back far enough.

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I would propose that fascism recurs because of a fear of responsibility and awful, hard work. In other words, laziness. It is so much easier to entrust our defense and security to a benevolent government than to take responsibility to arm and secure ourselves. And once you give the government that job, it is only a matter of time before they decide to secure society against its own members, i.e. fascism.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus for EVERYONE, and the nation survived.

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On September 15, 1863, Lincoln imposed Congressionally-authorized martial law. The authorizing act allowed the President to suspend habeas corpus throughout the entire United States. Lincoln imposed the suspension on "prisoners of war, spies, or aiders and abettors of the enemy," as well as on other classes of people, such as draft dodgers. The President's proclamation was challenged in ex parte Milligan (71 US 2 [1866]). The Supreme Court ruled that Lincoln's imposition of martial law (by way of suspension of habeas corpus) was unconstitutional.

"If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war."

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AU:
What you fail to realise with your ASSumptions is that Terrorists are a real threat, they really are trying to kill us, all of us. You maybe too stupid to see the real threat but they want to kill you and your family. Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep YOU safe.

Me:
Yeah that's what the Nazi's said.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, that's not at all what the Nazi's said.

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The Nazi's used the Jews as scapegoats for all the problems following post WW1 Germany. Fact is, WW1 is what caused Germany's problems, not the Jews. And the Islamic terrorist really ARE trying to kill us. They've repeatedly said so. They've murdered Theo Van Gogh, they decapitated Christian school girls in Malaysia, they raped, shot and blew up over 200 children in Beslan, Russsia, sawed the heads off of over a dozen international workers in Iraq, blew up trains in London and Madrid, murdered 3,000 people in NY, D.C. and Pennsylvania......

For you or anyone to compare the Nazi's propaganda concerning Jews in the 1930's to the very REAL events going on today is to show a level of denial and ignorance unparalleled in human history.

It really does stagger my mind that so many don't see this for what it is. If I tried to figure your mindset on this, I'd go crazy.

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Originally posted by Oracle-Zen:
AU:
What you fail to realise with your ASSumptions is that Terrorists are a real threat, they really are trying to kill us, all of us. You maybe too stupid to see the real threat but they want to kill you and your family. Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep YOU safe.

Me:
Yeah that's what the Nazi's said.

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Luckily there are people out there who aren't cowards, and are prepared to work to keep you safe.

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How so many chickens in the Hen house have come to fear the Farmer more than the wolf that's trying to eat them, is beyond me.

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Originally posted by Chewie:
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that Congress has voted to allow the President of the United States of America to throw out the Geneva Convention? He can now accuse anyone of being a terrorist. Hold them indefinitely, TORTURE them, and NEVER has to prove that they are in fact terrorists?

Am I the only one scared by this?

Chewie

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