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Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I know this will open up a very nasty barrel of worms, but I figure I'll ask anyway.

There was a proposal in my state to ban affirmative action, and based on the last poll results, it looks like it will pass. So in the interest of rational, intelligent discussion (emphasis on intelligent), I thought I would ask everyone's opinion on the subject.

I personally think that affirmative action detracts from true equality. However, since human beings are the ignorant creatures that they are, true equality is far beyond our reach. Which unfortunately makes affirmative action very necessary, and not just on a racial level.

So what say ye?

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"So long and goodnight."

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Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I think the United States was founded on the notion that over time, people will rationalize all of their preconceived mistakes. Sort of a self-righting country. I'm not entirely sure that this is realistic... to me it seems like the mob will always make itself irrational. However, giving people themselves the benefit of the doubt...

I think that privately run businesses and universities have the right to be run my sexists and bigots, and that those people should be allowed to reject anyone they want for whatever reason. Because, based on the self righting theory, people will eventually realize that it is wrong on their own, and evolve. Those that don't will be subject to the publics disfavor, lose business, and die out because of it. Is this how it would actually work? Maybe not, but that's how it was meant to. I really don't like the government having authority over privately owned institutions, no matter what good comes of it, the notion of the government involving itself that much goes against the very principal of private citizenship that this country was supposed to be made for. But of course, nearly everything else in modern America goes against it as well.

Government jobs are different. There should be no discrimination of any type. However, enforcing that is a difficult policy. Affirmative action in itself seems to fall short of this, and is actually just a different type of discrimination. By telling a minority of people that they are entitled to anything based on their race, gender, religion or anything else is dis-empowering them. Maybe there should be some kind of measure in place to ensure a lack of bias, but Affirmative Action should not be that measure. In the end, policies are just human thoughts and feelings on paper. You but a bigot in the right government position, and he'll make his opinions "policy". So no matter what you do, eventually, you just have to trust that the people will right themselves.

But more than that, you just have to trust them to screw up.

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Originally posted by Phoenixship:
I'm not as sure that the system is self-balancing, although I really love that concept. I think (simplistically) that the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. It's why we can't allow unrestrained capitalism. The railroad and coal monopolies of the 1920's showed clearly the evils of this situation. This leads to vastly unequal economic opportunities, authoritarian government to keep the people from squawking, and eventual revolution, a very messy outcome that we should avoid at all costs.

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Originally posted by TPage:
The suppression is over ...

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:

Can you honestly answer the question, "I would have more opportunity in this country if I was born black," in the affirmative? I can't.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:

In my mind it all comes down to this basic point: if you think that what happened as a result of the civil rights movement wiped out a couple of centuries of institutional prejudice and bigotry taught from parent to child then affirmative action does not make sense. I, on the other hand, think we could spend the rest of our lives working to counter that negative inertia and still have decades of work ahead of us.

If you think racism is only of the overt kind (burning crosses and lynching people) then affirmative action does not make sense. I, on the other hand, think of racism as any word or decision that is influenced by learned bigotry.

If you think that every American child that is born starts out with the same advantages and disadvantages then affirmative action does not make sense. I, on the other hand, think that millions of Americans are born at a disadvantage simply because of who they were born to.

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Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
* edit to add: TPage, I'm not directing my comments at you (I realize you're from Canada). I'm just using your post as a springboard.

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Originally posted by deepgirl187:
So in the interest of rational, intelligent discussion (emphasis on intelligent), I thought I would ask everyone's opinion on the subject.

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Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
I think the person best for the job should get it. I don't care what color or sexual orientation or gender they are.

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Originally posted by kaneman:
"Here's a radical idea, if, for instance, black people have access to a lower standard of education why don't we improve their standard of education"

Here in the N.E. more money is spent on urban schools(per student) than in other systems, the teachers are paid more, but the students do much worse than the others. Why? Is the standard of education any less? Is it more? Let's face it Urban people(White, black, Latino) don't push their children as hard. Bill Cosby was right.....

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Originally posted by Kaneman:

Here in the N.E. more money is spent on urban schools(per student) than in other systems, the teachers are paid more, but the students do much worse than the others. Why? Is the standard of education any less? Is it more? Let's face it Urban people(White, black, Latino) don't push their children as hard. Bill Cosby was right.....

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Originally posted by Hero:

I think that the Constitution requires you to make room for the irrational opinions, even if some of the rational ones must be excluded.

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Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Don't get me wrong, when AA was conceived, I think it was necessary. But has grown into a monster beyond it's original scope (very much like unions, welfare and social security) and control.

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