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Originally posted by Redlava:

I thought that is what radical Islamic Fundamentalist did.

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Originally posted by Redlava:
But here they are with a game where the object is to convert non-believers to Christianity and if they refuse, you KILL them.

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And if your forces accidentally kill neutral innocents, their spirit drops further: The act of murder actually has a moral dimension in this game.

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Turn or Burn?

A pretty significant question remains, though. How do peace and prayer go hand in hand with tanks, attack choppers and street battles? Despite what's been "reported," your Left Behind units do not easily form into some kind of roving militia intent on killing non-believers. In fact, there are no missions in the game aimed at causing a war or killing others. You train up soldiers only to defend your people when Carpathia starts sending in the big guns.

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Originally posted by Redlava:
That's a great message to send kids. It's okay to kill non-believers, just pray afterwards and everything will be fine.

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Originally posted by rue:
The question remains: who would Jesus kill?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children. I don’t really know much about this video game, but others I’ve played, like Grand Theft Auto, are really ridiculous.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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Originally posted by rue:
The question remains: who would Jesus kill?

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I can see the t-shirts now: WWJK?

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Originally posted by citizen:
Which is probably why they're not marketed at children. I dunno about the states but over here GTA is an 18 certificate.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It is marketed to children; that’s why Grand Theft Auto and games like it are the most popular games among children. And the US uses the ESRB rating system, but in the US, much like in Britain, it is rarely enforced by retailers, and seemingly completely ignored by parents.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Well, the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with your memory. According to a 2000 study they found that most video games with a mature rating are marketed to children under 17.

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But the real problem is that people don’t care. The software developers and retailers just want to sell their product to the largest audience who will buy it and in many cases that means children.

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And many parents are just happy to plant their children down in front of a computer to keep them quiet and out of their hair.

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Originally posted by citizen:
No they don't, I'm not American so how could the US Federal Trade commission disagree with my memory of events I didn't witness? How do you mean they were marketed to children under the certification age? Adverts during Childrens programs on TV, in games magazine aimed at Children, saying "Buy it if your under age"? What were they're criteria? I ask because of all the people most guilty for blaming games for their own failings Government commissions are right up there with neglective parents.

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Originally posted by citizen:
More adults buy games than Children. So obviously children aren't the largest Audiance.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I'm curious as to how a Parents neglect is the fault of the game?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You’ll have to take that up with the FTC.
http://www.ftc.gov/reports/violence/vioreport.pdf

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Oh, well in that case, I guess there’s no children buying mature video games.

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Why does it have to be the fault of the game? The parent’s neglect is sufficient.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The Link is sufficient, the sarcy reply is not.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You said the largest audience were children, implying certificated games are defiantly marketed to children because they were the largest audience. I pointed out that adults are in fact the largest audience, I didn't say children didn't buy games, please don't set me up as a strawman for you to tear down. If you could refrain from the childish sarcasm when you have no rhetorical response I'd really appreciate it as well.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I believe that's my point, you are the one implying the blame is with the games and there developers, not I.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You’ll get over it.

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That adults may be a large audience for many games

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doesn’t mean children aren’t a very large segment of the market,

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and in fact in some cases they may even be a larger segment of the market.

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Nonetheless, the developers and the retailers are largely only interested in selling their product to as many people as will buy it, and that does often mean children.

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Report From The NPD Group Shows 45 Percent Of Heavy Video Gamers Are In The Six - To 17-Year-Old Age Group
http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_060919a.html

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I think I quite clearly laid the blame on the marketing and the parents.

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But regardless of who is to blame, the developers made the game to be violent, the marketers advertise it to children and the retailers sell it, largely, without regard for the age of the costumer. So the blame doesn’t lie solely on the parents.

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From one side to other, no one cares, and that includes the software developers, the marketers and the retailers.

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Originally posted by citizen:
So the Computer Games industry is better than either the Music or Film industry, so what makes the games industry so special to be singled out for the most derision?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Who said it was being singled out?

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Originally posted by citizen:
They're singled out all the time, and I rather suspect you know that. Much of this very discussion is a testamount to that. I don't see anyone questioning Films or Music here, or in any other thread ever created in the RWED or on any other board I have frequented at all and certainly with no where near the voraciousness leveled at computer games.

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Originally posted by Finn Mac Cuhmal:
My first post in this thread questioned violence in TV

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I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV

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And I’ve seen films and music, particularly music, criticized for its violent content all the time in the news.

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Also this is the only time I’ve seen video games criticize for violence on this board, but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians.

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So I don’t know what you’re talking about.

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but this thread wasn’t even intended as a criticism of video games, as much as a criticism of Christians.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV

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Can be seen as a criticism is utterly beyond me.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I don't recall seeing a news story about how a film or music made someone kill a bunch of people. Pretty much every time something like that happens the finger is pointed at games.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Because no thread ever goes off topic in the RWED? I said much of this thread, indicating the content not necessarily the first post. Maybe you'd like to reread what most of the content of this thread has been about since you're having trouble with this. . . . I said much of this thread is talking about how bad video games and their marketing is, and it is, plainly so. Why do you act like you don't know this?

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Originally posted by citizen:
I think the major problem here is how often Christian groups are damning violent video games, I imagine Cartoon is often nodding along to these sentiments too. However when the game includes a Christian message there's not a peep, and indeed Cartoon pops up to defend the game. That would be hypocrisy.

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Originally posted by citizen:
GTA may be more violent, I don't know I haven't played this game, however I do know that GTA does not moralise the violence within it. You could argue it desensitises to violence, but not that it makes it moral. In fact not many games do moralise killing, save the one here, which makes killing non-Christians a moral, even 'good' act as long as you do a bit of prayer to the Christian God afterwards. That's a pretty fundamental difference.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s because, as usual, you intend it to be beyond you, because it’s not what you want to hear. What I actually said, without your massive deletion, was:

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“As for violence in the media and video games, I think it probably has gone too far. I like this new trend towards realistic images in TV, but I think it’s sometimes a bit much for children.”

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Okay, evidently, you’ve missed the whole ‘gangsta rap’ controversy that has been raging for the past 15 years.

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And perhaps if you reread this thread, you might discover that the only one critical of violence in video games (or TV) in this thread, so far, is me.

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Except for the two Christian groups mentioned in the original articles.

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Although, the game in question is rated Teen, not Mature. So the game has actually been rated as appropriate content for teenagers. Unlike games like Grand Theft Auto, which are rated Mature, but still sold to minors. So I’m not really sure why there’s a controversy at all.

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So you prefer a game that depicts pointless displays of violence as opposed to violence with a moral or righteous purpose? I suppose you really hate games like ‘Call of Duty’ that display British Commandoes during WWII fighting Nazis. You would prefer a game in which Nazis needlessly massacred Jews?

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Originally posted by citizen:
If you think saying you like something is criticising it I'm not the one with the problem. I like what's on TV, but it's going to far, make up your mind which one it is, do you like it or do you think it's going to far, and get back to me.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Evidently you didn't read what I wrote. I said I don't recall any slaughters, like say Columbine, being blamed on music. I guess you have no event since you deflected and dodged the statement rather than answering it.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Well done, and I'm talking to you, and since most of this thread has been a back and forth between you and me nearly all of it has been a discussion on how bad games are I rather think my point is proved. This is very obvious, I don't need to reread anything, I already know this, it is you who is having problems grasping this inordinately simple premise, I can only assume it is deliberate.

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Originally posted by citizen:
The original post was essentially "isn't it hypocritical to be anti-violent games then produce one to further your message?". The ratings weren't mentioned, but when it suits you you drop the denial and equate it to the original post.

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Originally posted by citizen:
You really like strawman arguments don't you huh. Call of Duty doesn't moralise the killing in anyway, quite the opposite, it's chock full of how it was a bloody, albiet necessarry, waste of life. The difference is Call Of Duty and GTA don't say "killing is good", which is a message this game does attempt to foster.

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Originally posted by citizen:
People play violent games, I do and from your posts on other threads I believe you do too. I'd prefer a game played by people who realise that's all it is, and one that doesn't attempt to instill that violence is a good moral act. Your protestations would seem to indicate you feel otherwise, you'd prefer games to instil and idea that killing is a good thing?

Perhaps you like games that make killing a good and moral act, but only if it's Christians killing non-Christians?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
much worse then violence with a moral purpose, and the violence in defense of Britain during WWII is generally viewed as violence with a moral purpose.

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If killing does have “a good and moral” purpose then I’m much more accepting of it then I would be if it were wanton and needless. I suspect though that the problem in this game is not whether it is violent, since you’ve already stated that you prefer games in which violence is depicted for violence sake, as opposed to games that depicted violence to attain a moral purpose. Rather, you’re problem, I suspect, is that this game is, or is perceived to have, a pro-Christian theme, and that’s what you can’t accept.

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Originally posted by citizen:
There is a fundemental difference between killing for a moral purpose and saying killing is morally right. CoD is the former, the game in question is the latter.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
According to you, who has never played the game or knows very much even about it. I’ve not played the game either, so I can’t speculate about whether I think the violence is moral or not.

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I find it somewhat interesting that you have no problem with depictions of pointless violence, but violence with a Christian morality bothers you. I think that says more about what you think about Christians then about what you think about violence. And more then anything else, I think that is the controversy over this game. I don’t really think it is too much to ask that our society at least worry as much about children being subjected to depictions of pointless violence as depictions of violence with a Christian morality.

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Left Behind Games' president, Jeffrey Frichner, says the game actually is pacifist because players lose "spirit points" every time they gun down nonbelievers rather than convert them.

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"You are fighting a defensive battle in the game," Frichner, whose previous company produced Bible software, said of combatting the Antichrist. "You are a sort of a freedom fighter."

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The enemy team includes fictional rock stars and folks with Muslim-sounding names, while the righteous include gospel singers, missionaries, healers and medics.

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When asked about the Arab and Muslim-sounding names, Frichner said the game does not endorse prejudice. But "Muslims are not believers in Jesus Christ" -- and thus can't be on Christ's side in the game.

"That is so obvious," he said.

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Jeff Gerstmann, senior editor at Gamespot.com, an online publication, said the game sn't popular. The game itself, which Gamespot rated 3.4 out of a possible 10, has lots of glitches.

"And it's kind of crazy," Gerstmann said. "One of the evil characters is a rock musician. ... If you get too close to him your spirit is lowered."

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But Plugged In, a publication of the conservative Christian group Focus on the Family, gave the game a "thumbs-up." The reviewer called it "the kind of game that Mom and Dad can actually play with Junior -- and use to raise some interesting questions along the way."

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“Our game includes violence, but excludes blood, decapitation, killing of police officers,” the company says on its Web site, noting that a player can lose points for “unnecessary killing” and regain them through prayer.

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“Part of the object is to kill or convert the opposing forces,” said the Rev. Tim Simpson of Jacksonville, Fla., who heads the Christian Alliance for Progress. “It is antithetical to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

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“The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one’s foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time,” Simpson said.

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

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“The idea that you could pray, and the deleterious effects of one’s foul deeds would simply be wiped away, is a horrible thing to be teaching Christian young people here at Christmas time,” Simpson said.

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BO-ring! Gawd, he makes Christianity sound so woosy, y'know? I think that if Christ played video games He would kick ass!

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Originally posted by citizen:
I think its somewhat interesting that you find violence morally good as long as its Christians against non-Christians.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS. I have no desire to continue this charade with someone who clearly only posts here because they like to see their own words, and only their own, in print.

Take your strawman elsewhere, you bore me.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Obviously you have no interest in hearing any side but your own, since even when I set you straight you continue the same tired BS.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
No, I just don’t assume that something is necessarily bad because it’s Christian. But as I’ve said numerous times, someone who prefers the violence in GTA because it is indiscriminate, can’t really claim that violence is their main problem with regard to this Left-Behind game.

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Originally posted by citizen:
Did anyone else catch Cartoons little bit. It's okay to kill them because they're under the influence of the Anti-Christ, that's why they're non-believers. Not real violence because they're not real people (like all non-christians eh cart), so okay to kill, kinda puts Cartoons real thoughts better than I could.

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