Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dayve:
Just thought I would open the floor for some partisan bickering….
I just can’t understand the Neo-con thinking here. Does Bush really intend to continue a costly war in Iraq and threaten Iran and Syria at the same time….Isn’t “Napoleon complex” applicable here?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dayve:
Just thought I would open the floor for some partisan bickering….
I just can’t understand the Neo-con thinking here. Does Bush really intend to continue a costly war in Iraq and threaten Iran and Syria at the same time….Isn’t “Napoleon complex” applicable here?

---

Napoleon won wars.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Napoleon won wars.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Redlava:
Maybe not Napoleon, but I heard several pundits comparing him to Lincoln.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Misstressahara:
I'm just amazed this man is still in charge of your country...... it boggles the mind how he's gotten away with it all.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dayve:
Just thought I would open the floor for some partisan bickering….
I just can’t understand the Neo-con thinking here. Does Bush really intend to continue a costly war in Iraq and threaten Iran and Syria at the same time….Isn’t “Napoleon complex” applicable here?

---

Napoleon won wars.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SimonWho:
At present Iraqis are treated as 'gooks' by the US government, military and media. That's why you're going to lose, surge or not.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Siri:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Dayve:
Just thought I would open the floor for some partisan bickering….
I just can’t understand the Neo-con thinking here. Does Bush really intend to continue a costly war in Iraq and threaten Iran and Syria at the same time….Isn’t “Napoleon complex” applicable here?

---

Napoleon won wars.

---

Yes, Napoleon won wars - until Waterloo.

I am not and never have been a Bush fan. However, I continually listen to as many sides of this debate as possible. I am not a military strategist (nor are most of us). Since Bush was elected there has been ongoing discussion about his intelligence and inflexibility not to mention stories that he believes god talks to him. Stories are just that - stories. If I could accept that our current president is an intelligent, thoughtful person who is willing to truly consider all options and make good decisions then I (and others) might be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, to trust him (believe him) to "do the right thing." There are so many people with political irons in this fire, I'm even less sure.

So, the speech - George Bush is not an eloquent speaker - this speech was more of the same - in my opinion. I have come to distrust this man and his administration.

Guess time and history will be required to see the outcome and George Bush's legacy.

I do enjoy hearing a person speak with some eloquence and command of the English language. I have yet to hear a Bush Jr speech that meets that criteria. Thus I may be prejudical against the man.


"I was on the loosing side. Still not sure it was the wrong side."

Siri

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:
Are you seriously trying to tell me you can't beat someone until they're your friend?

---

Quote:

---

Colin Powell --- really like to hear why he resigned

Anthony Zinni --- spoke out against Bush foreign policy pre 911. Said it was borderline insane

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

PS - Don't get me started on Lincoln, you'll get pages of evidence, and start wondering why we built a monument to a monster.

---

Quote:

---

I do enjoy hearing a person speak with some eloquence and command of the English language. I have yet to hear a Bush Jr speech that meets that criteria. Thus I may be prejudical against the man.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Dude, where did you learn your history ?

---

Quote:

---

Lincoln didn't care one whit about slavery and in fact supported an amendment to enshrine it forever in the US Constitution.

---

Quote:

---

As for what came after, you tell me, man - how much of YOUR dollar goes to support the parasitic fedgov ?

---

Quote:

---

He didn't free the slaves, he made us ALL slaves.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
He didn't free the slaves, he made us ALL slaves.

---

Quote:

---

In his First Inaugural he pledged his support of a proposed constitutional amendment that had just passed the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives that would have prohibited the federal government from ever having the power "to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." In his First Inaugural Lincoln advocated making this amendment "express and irrevocable."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh yeah - try not payin the master his cut(taxes) and see how free you really are.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
FremD,

I hope you take no offense but ...

I take it you were born and raised in the South? If so maybe you could explain the thinking to me.

From what you said, the South was fighting for the right to own slaves. The North (Lincoln specifically) was fighting to extend federal authority. So you are on the side of the South, FOR your personal freedom from the Federal government but also FOR the right to own people. And you are AGAINST the North (Federal government) and the AGAINST the abolition of slavery. N'est-pas?

Which represents the greater freedom to you? states rights or outlawing slavery?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Actually, General Lee made some efforts postwar to see to the education of former slaves and various ideas to assist them in integration into society as freemen, wiki has a few comments on it but I don't have time to dig up links at the moment.

-Frem

---

Quote:

---

from Strange Fruit (from a 1918 lynching, some details in spoilers)
...
It began on May 16 when a white landowner in rural Valdosta, Georgia, was shot to death at his home. His wife accused a black man named Sidney Johnson, and a lynch mob soon formed with the purpose of carrying out summary justice for the farmer's murder. However, when it was unable to locate Johnson, the mob turned its wrath on five black men who'd had the misfortune of being in the vicinity at the time and lynched them instead. Among the five was Haynes Turner, a former employee of the murdered farmer.

Turner's wife, Mary, was eight months pregnant, and when she heard of the murder, she vowed publicly to find the men responsible, swear out warrants against them, and ensure they were punished in the courts. Not surprisingly, her vow to seek justice doomed her; as an Associated Press report of the affair put it, Mary Turner had made "unwise remarks" about the execution of her husband, "and the people, in their indignant mood, took exceptions to her remarks, as well as her attitude." The local sheriff placed her under arrest, reportedly for her protection, but then surrendered her to a mob of several hundred white men and women -- as well as a number of children -- determined to "teach her a lesson."

Select to view spoiler:

---

At a place outside town called Folsom's Bridge, they stripped her, tied her ankles together, and hung her upside down from a tree. Dousing her with gasoline, they slowly roasted her to death. While she was still alive, a man using a knife ordinarily reserved for splitting hogs walked up and cut open the woman's abdomen. "Out tumbled the prematurely born child," wrote a news reporter covering the event. "Two feeble cries it gave -- and received for the answer the heel of a stalwart man, as life was ground out of the tiny form." Hundreds of bullets were then fired into Mary Turner's body. Sated, the mob left her body by the roadside. She and her child were buried in a shallow grave near the bridge.

---

---

Quote:

---

from After Sundown (an excerpt of a 1902 NYT article)
...
Negro Driven Away
The Last One Leaves Decatur, Ind., Owing to Threats Made

The last Negro has left Decatur, Ind. His departure was caused by the anti-Negro feeling. About a month ago a mob of 50 men drove out all the Negroes who were then making that city their home. Since that time the feeling against the Negro has been intense, so much so that an Anti-Negro Society was organized.

The colored man who has just left came about three weeks, and since that time received many threatening letters. When he appeared on the streets he was insulted and jeered at. An attack was threatened ...

The anti-negroites declare that as Decatur is now cleared of Negroes they will keep it so, and the importation of any more will undoubtedly result in serious trouble.
...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oh yeah - try not payin the master his cut(taxes) and see how free you really are.

You asked for it....
Requested Linkage

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo44.html

Quote:

---

In his First Inaugural he pledged his support of a proposed constitutional amendment that had just passed the U.S. Senate and the House of Representatives that would have prohibited the federal government from ever having the power "to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." In his First Inaugural Lincoln advocated making this amendment "express and irrevocable."

---

Dilorenzo can in fact, prove that claim - it's historically documented fact.

Lincoln is also the guy who had NYC shelled by artillery in response to draft riots because people did not wish to be cannon fodder for his ambitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots

The union tactical doctrine seemed at times to be "just bury them in bodies, theirs, ours, who cares, we'll get more", Grant's own troops called him a butcher for good reason, especially after Cold Harbor
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cold_Harbor )
as compared to (initially) a very high percentage of the southern forces beiong volunteers, fighting and dying for something they believed in rather than being forced to fight for something they didn't - not a moral judgement this, but a simple statement of how things were.

At the end of it all, the south really had nobody LEFT to stand up and fight, the attrition of their forces was so horrific that widows and orphans were the bulk of southern population for a good long while.

(Side note: Forced Conscription is technically a form of slavery in and of itself and more horrifying in experience than any other.)

He was in fact hated at times more than the confederacy, even by his own people, who made their will known quite strongly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_riot_of_1861
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Fizzle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Jackson_Affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleston_Riot

As with any war, most folk didn't really want it, especially if they had to fight it.

Constitution ? Habeus Corpus ? Due Process ? WHo gives a damn ?

http://www.civilwarhome.com/ProvostMarshal.htm

Freedom of the press ? in your dreams - many of those arbitrary arrests were newsies that Lincoln and supporters felt were 'disloyal' and thus subjected to arrest, and placed in the civil war version of gitmo.

And noteably, he did not seek a congressional declaration of war before acting.

The man was a monster, and it was against his ilk that the founding fathers put certain provisions in the constitution and forbade a standing army, for when you have a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail.

He didn't preserve the Republic, he destroyed it, in favor of the bloated parasitic monster that the FedGov has become.

Was he somehow "Right" in doing so ? - I don't feel qualified to make that judgement, myself, in all honesty, but personally I doubt it.

It wasn't nearly as simple an issue as capsule history classes make it out to be, nor were the politicians of either side particularly noble or virtuous.. but the historical record of fact shows without a doubt that the man was right up there with Papa Doc, Pinochet, Hitler and others of that ilk.

If you can justify what Abe did, then you can similarly justify Hitlers own actions in unifying HIS country - and for myself, i'll have none of it.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and watching anyone emulate those actions makes me nervous, especially some texan who's not half the leader Abe was.
(Yes, I give him that, iron-fisted tyrant that he was, Abe had the charisma and oratory skill to make folks do what he wanted.)

-Frem

---

Quote:

---

"The New York Draft Riots (July 13 to July 16, 1863; known at the time as Draft Week) were a series of violent disturbances in New York City that were the culmination of discontent with new laws passed by Congress to draft men to fight in the ongoing American Civil War. [Jewish] President Abraham Lincoln [Rothschild] sent several regiments of militia and volunteer troops to control the city. The conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool stated on July 16, 'Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it.' The military suppressed the mob using artillery and fixed bayonets."
-Wikipedia, New York City Draft Riots (Lincoln used his white slaves to perp terrorist bombings to destroy US cities and to genocide 600,000 Amerikans)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots

nigger.
a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons: "It's time for somebody to lead all of America's niggers... all the people who feel left out of the political process" - Ron Dellums.
-Merriam Webster Dictionary

"We're all black people now."
-Dick Gregory, September 12, 2001

"In the first few days of the new session of Congress, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and big Washington insiders such as Public Citizen and Common Cause will try to silence critics by regulating us through quarterly reports to Congress. Failure to report would result in civil and potential criminal penalties. Section 220 of S. 1, the lobbying reform bill currently before the Senate, would require grassroots causes, even bloggers, who communicate to 500 or more members of the public on policy matters, to register and report quarterly to Congress the same as the big K Street lobbyists. Section 220 would amend existing lobbying reporting law by creating the most expansive intrusion on First Amendment rights ever. For the first time in history, critics of Congress will need to register and report with Congress itself. This latest attack on bloggers comes hot on the heels of Republican Senator John McCain's proposal to introduce legislation that would fine blogs up to $300,000 for offensive statements, photos and videos posted by visitors on comment boards."
-Richard A. Viguerie, Chairman, GrassrootsFreedom.com, January 17, 2007 (TN senators Lamar "I Raped Cathy O'Brien And Almost Killed Her" Alexander and Bob "I Hire Illegal Alien Felons" Corker both voted YES)
http://infowars.net/articles/january2007/180107Bloggers_Prison.htm
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_c
fm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00002

"A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts."
-Euripides

slave.
Middle English sclave, from Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclvus, from Sclvus, Slav (from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages); see SLAV. Word History: The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical.
-American Heritage® Dictionary

"The people resemble a wild beast, which, naturally fierce and accustomed to live in the woods, has been brought up, as it were, in a prison and in servitude, and having by accident got its liberty, not being accustomed to search for its food, and not knowing where to conceal itself, easily becomes the prey of the first who seeks to incarcerate it again."
-Niccolo Machiavelli, Secretary of War for City-state of Florence, Italy, and tortured in his own city as a POW, from The Prince
http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm

"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."
-Hosea 4:6, Christian Bible (KJV)

"Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, especially the New Testament."
-Jewish Babylonian Talmud, Shabbath 116a


Bush with Jewish Talmud that orders beheading of all Christians and Muslims

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: JOHN QUADE VS NEW WORLD ORDER
Civil War 14th Amendment made white folks slaves
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3150298931467182492&hl=en

---