Jimmy Carter called out on anti-semitism! by CrevanReaver

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quite frankly, I'm just as tired of hearing Jews bitch and moan about everything as I am any minoirity. My life ain't all peaches and bubble baths bro. Everything about my life has been a struggle and because I'm white, male and hetrosexual nobody gives two shits. Can we please stop talking about stupid bullshit like this that does nothing but divide races even further, rather than heal them and bring them together?

You mean like you generalizing Jews as bitching and moaning about everything. That really helps your case, dude.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, January 26, 2007 10:33 AM

Quote:
You mean like you generalizing Jews as bitching and moaning about everything. That really helps your case, dude.

Finn, you're right to point out that the wording of the original statement wasn't totally kosher in its political correctness. But nonetheless I have a problem with the sort of argument you made - maybe not so much in the context that you used it, but in the context that the PC Police likes to use it (and I don't consider you a part of that crowd... unless, of course, you actually are, but I think you're too smart to think in absolutes like those people like to do). So don't think any of the following is a response to you directly, it's a response to that sort of argument in general, when it's used for the wrong reason.

I'll use Jews as a representative minority group instead of the more cumbersome "minority group A", but my arguments apply to all minorities.

The biggest problem I have with the argument is that it deliberately deflects the criticism contained in the original statement from the specified target to another, much broader group of people. While we can all agree that the wording isn't great, which makes such a target-shift easy, I think we can also agree that 6string didn't mean to imply that ALL Jews are moaners and bitchers, but rather the small but vocal crowd that likes to cry anti-semitism whenever somebody higher up is critical of something that somebody who happens to be Jewish has done. Of course, that vocal crowd isn't composed only of Jews, but all manner of folk who take it upon themselves to show the world how morally superior they are by claiming to know what offends other people and accusing others of being bigots. These people, in general, like to argue along the lines of "This and that statement is offensive to Jews", even though it's very likely that it's only a small number of Jews that are actually offended by it (unless the original statement is unambiguously racist, but those aren't the statements I'm talking about). The PC Police takes it upon itself to represent ALL Jews and how it is they supposedly feel towards something (and hence tell Jews that they should be thinking this way if they consider themselves to be part of the broader Jewish community), and in this sense if somebody says "Jews should stop complaining", it's really directed towards the PC Police who takes it upon itself to represent Jews.

My second gripe: implied racism by the poster. By saying "you're generalising all Jews to be whiners and bitchers", one is basically saying "you describe everybody of this group by using a derogatory term, so you must not like this group, so you're a racist", even though it should be clear to people from the context that this isn't actually the case (again, I'm not talking about the cases where there genuinely IS a racist comment).

Finally, since the racism accusation tends to stick and automatically makes everything else invalid, the actual point the poster tried to make is lost. In this case, the poster also said "Can we please stop talking about stupid bullshit like this that does nothing but divide races even further, rather than heal them and bring them together?", and a very good call as well, but this sentence has been made insignificant because the first sentence of the paragraph has been twisted into making it sound like the poster is racist, so "why should we listen to what else you have to say?".

Basically, what it comes down to is this kind of dialogue (in reaction to person A saying statement B that is critical of what some members of group C have done, but not by any means racist):

PC Police: "Group C is offended by person A saying statement B, it's racist and thus so is person A."
Sick-of-PC-dude: "Statement B isn't racist, so group C should stop moaning and bitching about it, this discussion is pointless and only promotes hate."
PC Police: "Are you calling ALL members of group C moaners and bitchers!? RACIST!"

So Sick-of-PC-dude has been labelled a racist because of unfortunate semantics on his part, and bigotted behaviour by the anti-bigotism crowd. Doesn't seem right to me.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Friday, January 26, 2007 3:49 PM

SKYWALKEN

Here a clip from an interview with Al Jazeera, in which Carter actually claims the so-called "Palestianians" are in some ways being treated worse than blacks under apartheid South Africa:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24024&only&rss

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Friday, January 26, 2007 3:53 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
Here a clip from an interview with Al Jazeera, in which Carter actually claims the so-called "Palestianians" are in some ways being treated worse than blacks under apartheid South Africa:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24024&only&rss

Glad to see you're into spreading the truth, although I feel it is an exaggeration in some ways.

Moderate Chrisisall

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Friday, January 26, 2007 3:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
...in which Carter actually claims the so-called "Palestianians" are in some ways being treated worse than blacks under apartheid South Africa:

Why is that so hard to believe? Don't you think it's possible that you either underestimate what the Palestinians are going through, or overetimate what blacks went through under Apartheid?

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Friday, January 26, 2007 4:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

I don't know much about Carter...

But I've been reviewing the arguments and statements made on this thread about him.

Is it possible that Carter isn't anti-Jewish, but rather pro-Palestinian?

Has he actually said anywhere that Jewish people are bad people and he wants to see them maligned or killed?

Or has he defended Palestinians against what he perceives as Jewish wrongdoing?

I mean, if someone defended the Jewish people against perceived Palestinian wrongdoings, would they be anti-Palestinian?

Would anyone care about an Anti-Palite (heh) the way they might care about an anti-Semite?

If we were talking about Chinese people and Japanese people, would there be as much drama to it?

What does that say about us?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, January 26, 2007 4:30 PM

Khyron - I gotta say man... I think you nailed it on the head man. You've eloquently summed up just about every thought I've ever had about the whole PC movement and how it's spiraled out of control to the point where one almost feels like they can't say anything anymore without somebody crying foul about it and in turn losing their good reputation, their job, their house, their money or all of the above in court. I love how you point out the fact that because one part of a picture that somebody tries to paint might seem racist to somebody, once somebody claims they are racist for it, the entire point of the picture is lost and invalidated.

Thanks for validating my opinion here. Personally, I don't think I need any validation, but in todays diseased PC world, any attempt at brodening sanity and any help the sane can give each other is priceless.

Citizen - Sorry about the misunderstanding. I thought you were attacking me there somehow. I know we see eye to eye on about as much as we disagree about. Sorry about the Git thing too. I thought your reply was pretty funny though. Glad you kept your sense of humor about it.

Edit: Heh... looking back on your first post I see that it was the "lucid" thing that got me. I really didn't get that you were being sarcastic and I couldn't figure out if you were agreeing or disagreeing.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, January 26, 2007 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Is it possible that Carter isn't anti-Jewish, but rather pro-Palestinian?

Has he actually said anywhere that Jewish people are bad people and he wants to see them maligned or killed?

Or has he defended Palestinians against what he perceives as Jewish wrongdoing?

I mean, if someone defended the Jewish people against perceived Palestinian wrongdoings, would they be anti-Palestinian?

Would anyone care about an Anti-Palite (heh) the way they might care about an anti-Semite?

If we were talking about Chinese people and Japanese people, would there be as much drama to it?

What does that say about us?

Anthony - I won't pretend to know much about Carter or the situation either. Actually, I know much more about it now because of this thread than I ever did before. I do, however, have to give Carter the benefit of the doubt in this situation for the reasons I've stated above.

I think you bring up probably the most valid and insightful questions on this thread. My particular favorite was:

"Is it possible that Carter isn't anti-Jewish, but rather pro-Palestinian?"

Very good question here Anthony. I think we've been so brainwashed as a populous in school, in the newspapers, on TV and in movies for years about the holocaust and the hardships of the Jews that they've become untouchable to the point that many of us wouldn't ever even stop to think about asking that very important question. I think the immediate "knee-jerk" reaction almost anyone would have against Carter here would be to say that he was racist against Jews. (Except of course, the obvious extreme of true rscists that take glee in watching a Jewish person die, but that's not who we're talking about here) I don't even blame people who take that approach against Carter here... they've never been taught differently.

Just because you don't agree with a Jewish person (or any person from any "minority") or an entire race's standpoint on an issue, does not make you a racist.

Personally, I see no more reason why we're helping anyone in Isreal than I do for the entire war we're in. If those people really are so important to us than I think maybe we should give them Amnesty in our country... let the ones who want out have safe harbor come here, and leave the rest to fight if they want. It really is none of our business in the first place, and I think that giving them Amnesty here is more than generous.

Am I a racist for saying we shouldn't be involved in battles that are none of our damn business?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, January 26, 2007 4:46 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Am I a racist for saying we shouldn't be involved in battles that are none of our damn business?

No, it makes you a terrorist, haven't you been keeping up

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, January 26, 2007 4:54 PM

Heh..... yeah. I should have known better. I'm pretty sure that there's somebody from the CIA that's watching all of my posts on here and MySpace among other places. Maybe I'm just paranoid (No... not me, right?) I'm guessing I'm walking the tightrope and haven't crossed the line yet because I haven't had any warrantless searches of my apartment..... or have I?

I figure either I haven't crossed the line yet, they're waiting for me to run for political office before they dump all of this on the American public or they're just waiting for me to give them a whole arsenal of "anti-American" rants to come after me with.

F

them. I love this country and I'm a patriot. Love for your country and love for a tyrannical government are two seperate things, though the latter would have you believe that they are inseparable. (Wow!... I really like that quote. I'm gonna have to remember that one).

If it ever gets real bad, I'll let them make me a martyr.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, January 26, 2007 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
Here a clip from an interview with Al Jazeera, in which Carter actually claims the so-called "Palestianians" are in some ways being treated worse than blacks under apartheid South Africa:

That’s nonsense. Apartheid and the Palestinian territories have nothing to do with each other. The Palestinians are not in the shape they are in because a bigoted Israeli government is oppressing them, but rather because a fanatical Palestinian government is oppressing them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Finn, you're right to point out that the wording of the original statement wasn't totally kosher in its political correctness.

I don’t care anything about 6strings political correctness; I’m not much of the PC type, but sometimes I get the feeling that people use the politically incorrect argument to justify nonsense. Essentially, what 6string’s argument boils down to is “we would all get along if minorities would just shut up.” I don’t buy that. It doesn’t make any sense for one thing and it’s pejorative. I don’t know if that was what he was trying to say or if he just didn’t phrase it very well. Maybe he is a bigot for all I know, but I’m not going to assume that, I’ll simply say that what he said didn’t help his case any, and I did. He came across like someone who wants to inflame race tensions, not assuage them.

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Friday, January 26, 2007 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Essentially, what 6string’s argument boils down to is “we would all get along if minorities would just shut up.” I don’t buy that.

Had he said that, I wouldn't have bought it either, but I didn't read it that way, and by his reaction to my post I think I read it right. I saw it as: "If over-sensitive, knee-jerk reactions propagated on the behalf of minority groups persist as the norm in contemporary society, in the long run more harm than good will be done." Very different wording, but I think the message is the same.

But I'm tired and not in the mood to discuss this any further.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Friday, January 26, 2007 5:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
"If over-sensitive, knee-jerk reactions propagated on the behalf of minority groups persist as the norm in contemporary society, in the long run more harm than good will be done."

Pure genius... and exactly the point I was trying to make. You should be a speech writer for a politician. One of the good kind of politician (such a thing does exist).

Maybe the American public will get a small dose of truth and common sense that will be written so well that it can't be called racist.

Now you just have to find somebody who can speak as well as you can write.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, January 26, 2007 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Is it possible that Carter isn't anti-Jewish, but rather pro-Palestinian?

He might be anti-Semitic. Certainly some of what he has said suggests it, but I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don’t think he’s pro-Palestinian, at least not in any functional way. I would say that he is anti-Israeli.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Has he actually said anywhere that Jewish people are bad people and he wants to see them maligned or killed?

No. Not to my knowledge.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Or has he defended Palestinians against what he perceives as Jewish wrongdoing?

I’m sure that’s exactly what he thinks he’s doing. Or he thinks a good controversy will sell his book, I’m not sure, possibly a combination.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I mean, if someone defended the Jewish people against perceived Palestinian wrongdoings, would they be anti-Palestinian?

No one calls Carter anti-Israeli because he is defending Palestinians. He gets called anti-Israeli because, according to some of his own supporters, he holds an uncompromising view of Israel as a solely responsible for the conflict.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Would anyone care about an Anti-Palite (heh) the way they might care about an anti-Semite?

Why wouldn’t they? In fact, this country has been high-strung about anti-Arab sentiment since 9/ll.

And Palestinians are Semitic, but generally the term is anti-Arab.

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
If we were talking about Chinese people and Japanese people, would there be as much drama to it?

The Chinese and the Japanese aren’t killing each other anymore, but back when they did, yes, there was as much “drama” (whatever that means.)

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
What does that say about us?

What does what say about us?

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Friday, January 26, 2007 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Had he said that, I wouldn't have bought it either, but I didn't read it that way, and by his reaction to my post I think I read it right. I saw it as: "If over-sensitive, knee-jerk reactions propagated on the behalf of minority groups persist as the norm in contemporary society, in the long run more harm than good will be done." Very different wording, but I think the message is the same.

According to 6string, you evidently did read it right. And I don’t see anything wrong with your interpretation, in fact, I’m sympathetic to it.

I actually don’t know any oversensitive minorities. I haven’t since college, actually. But everyone’s oversensitive about something in college. I know many Jews and Jewish people; none of them ever push the Holocaust in my face. And I know many African-Americans, who never play the race-card. In college, there was always someone protesting how Whitey was keeping them down, but in the real world, that kind of stuff is largely fictitious. My boss is an African American woman for pet’s sake, and she’s got clout. She’s not small fry; when she talks people listen. Most of this oversensitive minorities stuff doesn’t come from the minorities. It comes from largely Left-wing advocacy groups, politicians and activists who often seem to be preserving their own existence or advancing their own ideology more then benefiting anyone else.

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Friday, January 26, 2007 9:47 PM

FLETCH2

Khyron, props for an incitefull and spot on analysis.

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Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Most of this oversensitive minorities stuff doesn’t come from the minorities. It comes from largely Left-wing advocacy groups, politicians and activists who often seem to be preserving their own existence or advancing their own ideology more then benefiting anyone else.

I would have to agree with your assessment of the racism issue on the individual basis, though I wouldn't pin it on only the Left wing. This is bipartisan hatered, Repuglican and Demoncrat.

I've worked in a wide variety of jobs and although the pay wasn't great, I have to say that some of my most enjoyable jobs were production "back-room" jobs which consisted usually of unsteady hours, complete lack of benefits or job security, and usually $10.00/hr at best... usually under the table. These are the jobs you go to when you're desperate for work. When you've got a family to feed and you need the money and you're too proud to sit on your ass and collect a check you don't diserve. Most of the people I worked with didn't have cars and took the bus to work.

The reason these jobs were my favorite were the environment and the people, whom incidentally, were mostly black or mexican. I got to feel what it was like to be a minority when I worked those jobs, and I have to say, it wasn't bad at all. Sure, we had our differences in opinions on things or our mannarisms, but so does everybody. Like I've always said... "I don't like at least 90% of the people I've never met in my life and 95% of those people are white."

Any of our differences were due entirely to enviornment and had nothing to do with our skin color. One thing we usually were all able to agree on was how much of a jagoff our bosses were. The best thing about working with them, I thought, was that I never felt on guard about what I discussed around them. They'd give their little digs about my race and I'd give them right back, but we knew it was in jest and nobody ever got in a huff about it. In all honesty, I'm much more guarded around my fellow white employees (particularly women) when it comes to saying what's on my mind.

The criminal media and scheming politicians are to blame here. Any time race, sex, religion or sexuality is mentioned on TV it's for bad reasons and all they do is perpetuate anamosity between these groups. They consistantly show us all at our worst, and in the back of our minds we start to believe the hype. This is particularly true of perpetuating the belief that minorities are somehow owed something for things that happened years before by and to people who are all dead now, and now they should be able to sit around all day and complain while they collect a government check. Teach a man to fish... right? All minorities I've ever met don't believe this... that's because I go to work and the one's I meet are working with me. I've never met any of these degenerates who live off of our tax dollars, but they do exist and that needs to stop.

Hell... Jessie Jackson got rich off of it. He's one of the worst offenders here. My uncle, who is Jewish BTW, always says he wants Jessie's job. He doesn't do anything but make people hate each other and he's rich. My uncle doesn't want to make people hate each other, but is in awe of Jessie's ability to make money appear out of thin air. Even black people I've talked to think he's a jagoff... the same people who incidentally defended R Kelly the whole time he was pissing on underage girls. So that shows you where Jessie stands here.

When you do get a great black man, namely Bill Cosby, saying good things his entire life which IMHO have brought the races close together, stepping up and speaking out against the bullshit MTVized, caracatureized rap culture and how damaging it is to youth of all colors, somebody goes and pays some woman (see: whore) to come out and say that he tried to slip her drugs and rape her.

When have we heard from good old Bill since?

No... the problem is the media. They don't make any money if we're all happy and we aren't busy hating each other. Strife is what brings in the big bucks. I say we all just turn off our TV's, stop buying newspapers and reading MSN's frontpage and maybe THEN we can finally all just get along.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:31 AM

6string: Thanks for the kind words. Glad I could help out.

Finn: I agree with what you said, and I did already say something very similar (in that long post I made before). It's not so much the minorities as a whole who are the oversensitive ones, but the PC Police (as I called it), made up not only of members of that particular minority, who feel they have a right to be representative of the minorities as a whole on a particular issue. As I said in my one-sentence summation: "...propagated on the behalf of minority groups...". And as you said:

Quote:
It comes from largely Left-wing advocacy groups, politicians and activists who often seem to be preserving their own existence or advancing their own ideology more then benefiting anyone else.

Glad we agree (although not solely left-wing).

Fletch: Thanks for the props mate.

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:22 AM