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if thats true, then i am unaware, youll have to show me the scriptures so i can study them.. i was under the impression from John(REv 22:18) that anyone who adds or takes away to the prophecies in his book will not be spared by the plagues of the end times

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The story that got me was called "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell. I'm thinking you may have even read this at some point, but if you haven't it's a must read. And look at this.... I even found a link to the full story so you can read it at your leisure:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

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The story that got me was called "And Then There Were None" by Eric Frank Russell. I'm thinking you may have even read this at some point, but if you haven't it's a must read. And look at this.... I even found a link to the full story so you can read it at your leisure:

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*Too busy laughing his ass off to comment*


-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

PS- for a MUCH longer take on the concept of this story... try THIS book.
http://www.amazon.com/STAINLESS-STEEL-DRAFTED-Stainless-Paperback/dp/0
553273078
The entire series would amuse you, I think.

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AnthonyT-

Antimason,

Well, at the top of my head, without turning a page, I can recall an instance where 1) a man was asked to murder his son

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2) a tribe of God's chosen people were asked to invade a city belonging to a rival tribe and murder every man, woman, child, and infant.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

You have no God given rights. If you did then no mere human being could ever take them from you.

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What rights you have are those rights that other people choose to acknowledge, which is why they are mutable and liable to change without warning.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Antimason,

Whatever God ultimately wants from his children, he will no doubt let us know once the events in Revelations have come to their conclusion.

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18 US Code § 2381. Treason:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

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Originally posted by antimason:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

You have no God given rights. If you did then no mere human being could ever take them from you.

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do you have rights at all then?

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Fletch2-

Yes you have those rights you and others are prepared to fight for. In World War 2 we fought for the rights to be free men and we won, had we lost we would probably have been slaves to the Aryan "Master Race."

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Rights are fought for not given. If God gave man freedom as an inaliable right why did Moses have to lead the children of Israel out of bondage in Egypt?

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If God himself was garentor of their freedom they would never have been enslaved in the first place.

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You will not find a mention of a right to freedom in the bible, in fact there are rules in there about the treatment of slaves, something that would be impossible if the Bible is the literal word of God and God garenteed all men to be free.

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This is actually 3 things. 1) There is a God. 2) he never gave you a right to life, couldn't have done because when he raised Sodom or killed the first born of Egypt he would have broken his own rules.

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Further, as previously mentioned if God is omnipotent and didn't want people to die then they would not die.

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You have no garentee in life.

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Then you get upoff your lazy ass, stop waiting for God to do your work for you and fight for those rights you believe you deserve.

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There is a reason why the Declaration of Independence is held in such esteme by none Americans, it is the first time in history that men threw down the concept that a man is born free and has rights. Before that point in the whole history of mankind going back at least to Mose's time huge numbers of human beings were NOT born free.

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The whole ancient world was built on slavery. The Roman empire, Athens, hell the Spartans were an occupying elite that enslaved an entire nation of Helots to do their bidding. Even in 1776 when white men were writing about men being born equal there were black men in that same nation being bought and sold as Slaves. If God made freedom a rule then he waited a long time to follow through on it.

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Bottom line, the only reason you were NOT born a slave is that through the centuries human beings like you lay down their lives and paid in blood for your freedom. If you think you have some God given right, some magical inherent freedom then you stand a better chance of being enslaved because you'll still be waiting on that miracle when they lead your sorry ass to market.

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Freedom is something people bleed for, there are no free lunches in this life.

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Originally posted by piratenews:
Arrest all the traitors. Let a martial law tribunal find them guilty. Then kill them. Let Satan sort em out.

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Originally posted by antimason:
but if youll notice, a 'master race' implies genetic superiority, which is an evolutionary concept;

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did i say God uses his invisible hand to uphold these rights for people? no.. but that God established these rights, and it is for Gods followers to protect them. without men upholding Gods laws, then just as with the Eyptians(or take your pick of previous empires), slavery(genocide or conquest) becomes relative and rationalized because, (suprise)men are left to the dictates of their own moral compasses

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the bible didnt start slavery, its a practice that has been with man from the beginning; if you dare to go back to the oldest of cultures, like the Sumarians, theyll say that it was their 'gods' which indroduced slavery TO THEM! you can thank the 'pagans' for that, and similarly it wasnt God behind his peoples captivity in Egypt. see.. people like to blame God for the ills of man.. and then conveniently skip the human conscience and all other worldviews in the process

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do you care to understand the context of those events, or were you just interested in interjecting biased presuppositions

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i am.. by stating that MEN HAVE GOD GIVEN RIGHTS! i dont see how stating the opposite does us any favors

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which is no suprise, the bible even says that our fight is against "the authorities"

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all the incidences of slavery you listed were of men, enslaving other men.. God had nothing to do wtih that. but then.. if there is no God, why is slavery wrong, the majority of those populaces were likely in favor of it; it was probably justifiable right? what right does a slave have?

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
The entire post just seems to me that you want a one world "civilization" and without any patriotism, I don't see why we wouldn't be a one world civilization. I really don't see any other way to read that initial post.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I think you're arguing a point that I'm not trying to make here. I think we haven't seen eye to eye, simply because one of us is on a high dive while the other is on the ground.

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For the most part, I agree with your assement of patriotism, except that I don't believe what you're talking about is TRUE patriotism. I believe that this is just the strong emotions that get stirred up in every American when they hear loud drums and see a flag banner behind O'Reilly or whatever counterpart CNN has to him. It's Orwell's "Two Minutes Hate". It's something that can be used to make a public rabid by waving the flag infront of their eyes like a Matador to a bull and then leading them straight into a war and once they've finally woke up to the reaility that they never wanted that in the first place, it's far too late and then they make us feel like assholes and no good hippies for wanting out.

You're right... that kind of patriotism sucks.

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Thinking about this from a different aspect, what is a country?...

I think this is thinking about it from the exact same perspective.

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Patriotism, in my definition is the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and the ideals of freedom and protecting them, even from our corrupt Government.

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Haha.. France. Am I the only one on the Fireflyfans boards that doesn't hate France? Never been there, don't know them...

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posted by Citizen-
it's all evil sciences fault, that's a new one for you.

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People were exalting the idea that theirs was the master race long before the Nazi's and long before the theory of evolution.

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Usually it was based on the idea that 'Our religion is better than your religion'.

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Though of course Atheists are just as capable of being moral as Theists.

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In fact I've seen evidence to suggest they're more capable of it.

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Believe it or not many people don't need the threat of a vengeful God punishing them in order for them to not go out and kill children. Weird concept I know.

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Further more this really ignores the whole centuries of holly wars, inquisitions, slavery and intolerance perpetrated by good Christian men.

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Fact is historically all those things are the norm for Christianity, not the exception,

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how do you rationalise that if God's people are always upholding Gods law on Earth, unlike those evil sinful Atheists, Egyptians et al?

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Like Christians turning a blind eye to all the ills perpetrated by Christians because Christians are 'good' and it's everyone else that is 'bad'?

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Listen to what Fletch is telling you, Christians practised slavery, there's no mention of Christians inventing it.

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Thus your assumption that Christians have always held true to all men are free is utterly false.

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Erm, by doing something. Sitting around in a cell telling your cell mates how free you are because God said so would certainly get you out of the cell.

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Jesus was the biggest anti-establishment hippy ever. Funny how his teachings have been used to create one of the biggest and longest lasting establishments ever, ain't it?

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Back to the old points, if you're not afraid God will give you a spanking you'll be a bad wittle boy. Personally I don't kill people because I don't want to, not because I'm afraid of being punished.

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Originally posted by antimason:
on the other hand, i can trust that you wont murder, because you THINK its a bad thing. whew.. theres a whole lot of assurance in that- but i believe you, after all, thats how you FEEL right now, its perfectly REASONABLE to you. well i demand something a little more tangeable to garauntee my rights then that

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
The only rights you have are the ones that you are willing to fight for.

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The people willing to do the fighting, bleeding, killing and dying for your rights are it's garentors,

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something is only a God given right if God is willing to get involved to support them.

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Since history shows that God does not enforce them then they can not be God given rights.

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God is like the UN in that regard, good at high minded pronouncements not so great at the follow through.

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You also missed completely the part about the bible. If the Bible is the absolute word of God and if in it he gives advice about the correct treatment of slaves then he is condoning slavery.

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It makes no difference who invented it, or if man made it up along with pagan gods. This is the word of the big guy all he has to say is "hey Israelites I made every man free, slavery displeases God, stop it."

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He doesn't because freedom was never part of the deal, God wants you to take an active part in making your life and the lives of the people around you better, he's hands off, he gave you the rules, hell he even died for your sorry ass, he just never gave you a free ride.

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You are free because men like you bleed and died to make you free and to keep you free. You have a right to life because anyone wishing you harm knows that your fellow citizens will punish anyone that tries to kill you.

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Originally posted by Khyron:
So you need to have it written down somewhere to know that murder is wrong?

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The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Originally posted by antimason:
the bibles tangeable..

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Originally posted by antimason:
Stalin, Hitler, Mao.. apparently no one told these people it was wrong; they justified perfectly within their own sick consciences

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Originally posted by antimason:
i dont know why we constantly have to go down this path Citizen, i do not hate science, never said it was evil sciences fault, or the fault of athiests.

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i am simply underlying the differences in the two competing philosophies of (biblical)creationism and evolution.

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the point of all this is, people would like to believe that if we just got rid of all world religions, human reason and logic would govern us, peaceably;

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but the few attempts in history of this athiest utopia, inspired by guys like Marx, were communist dictatorships, who enslaved their citizenry.

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science is a tool, it is not in itself moral in anyway.. and cant be relied on to spiritually guide people.

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yes, but theyre either occult(angelic race), or gnostic/evolutionary(spontaneous generation) concepts, either premised upon man evolving over vast periods of time from the lower levels of the natural kingdom, or being seeded by superhuman races. the simple observation that the Nazis adorned themselves with the gamut of esoteric occult symbolism, and the nature of their propganda should make it obvious that it wasnt Jesus Christian

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people who are non theists have a tendency to lump every religious belief together, 'since its all make-believe'.. but there are actually notable, profound differences between the seperate beliefs

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im sure people would just gallop along in harmony, incapable of fueding, in unity and peace.. IF ONLY we could facilitate the absence of religion? how many times hve i heard that.. its the great secular myth thats been taught the world over, which makes it easier to blame religion and God for every horror that human beings have committed throughout history.

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there are a lot of instances where this has happened.. but one more recent example that tends to go unnoticed is(secular)Humanism, made popular by guys like Marx, and the role it played in communist Russia. as is witnessed, atheism was an intregal part of enslaving people and devaluing there worth and convincing them that they have no rights but that which the state gives them.

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there are a lot of examples of wordlviews run amok... the single common denominator is always corrupt men behind the scenes

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dont twist my words.. all im asking is...if there is no God, where do rights come from?

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you will say that men gather a consenses on what is allowed, they will rationalize among themselves what is appropriate, and it will be decided that way; only that decision is subject to change- dependant on the moral majority at the time.

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was it not this 'majority' who did the bidding of the Nazis, who rather than standing up, actually carried out the murderous dirty work?

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it depends on which beliefs your talking about.. but if you still think the Nazis were christians, then im not gonna bother with all this again..

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thats your interpretation Citizen.. i dont restrain myself from adultery or theft for fear of 'vengeange', i do so because God says those things are wrong

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"..perpetrated by good Christian men." that is the essence of your belief isnt it.. that it is our doctrines which drive us to these things. see this is where we disagree: i recognize that all human beings are capable of such things, but that we can be dissuaded or spiritually discerned enough to know otherwise... where as you think that people are born perfect, and then corrupted by religion. how can i reason with that?

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Jesus Christianity, or Holy Roman pagan bastardized christiniaty? to you they are one in the same, to me they are examples of apostasy, hereticism and luciferian corruption

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i never said they were "always" upholding rights, but that it is our duty.. the fact is even people of the faith become corrupted by the same world that you atheist live in, apparently unperturbed

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a blind eye to what? name it.. ill acknowledge it;

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and atheists allowd it to..

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(rather than an inferior species from the primordial ooze)

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thats probably because they didnt understand the message.. just as most of you around here dont. what is your alternative to a benevolent Creator? nothing.. so say what you will about christians who fail to uphold Gods standards, atleast we attempt to do so, outide of which there seem to be no universal truths that men will recognize

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i really dispise that kind of comment.. where does it say to murder in the bible?

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on the other hand, i can trust that you wont murder, because you THINK its a bad thing. whew.. theres a whole lot of assurance in that- but i believe you, after all, thats how you FEEL right now, its perfectly REASONABLE to you. well i demand something a little more tangeable to garauntee my rights then that

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I think the problems with Communism stem from areas other than religion or lack there of. I think to say Communism was what it was because it was 'Atheist' is a fallacy.

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" the humanists firmly believes that the existing acquisitive and profit motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate. a SOCIALIZED and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that acquisitive distribution of the means of life be possible"

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Capitalism is 'Atheist' in so much as it is non-Theist', as is Democracy and in fact most societal systems.

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In fact I think dropping the whole organised religion thing altogether would be a good idea, and before you burn me on that remember that that is exactly what Jesus wanted.

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Either it's pagans or Evolutionists at fault? Guess we can write off all the atrocities committed because someone honestly believed that God wanted it.

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how often have I heard some theist telling us that Atheists are inherently less moral because they haven't got a god to tell them what to do. Certainly makes it easier to blame those that don't believe in your religion for all the evils of the Human race.

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"We must combat religion. down with religion; long live Atheism. the spread of Atheism is our cheif task. communism ABOLISHES ETERNAL TRUTHS. it abolishes all religion and morality"

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Careful, the Nazi's played up to the Christians because they were a large majority required for their power base.

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One of the reasons the Jews were chosen as the target actually.

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Where were the Christian safeguards while Christians were supporting the Nazi's?

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Thank you for telling me what I think, where would I be without you .

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Are you denying that many, if not most, slave owners in recent history from the western power were Christian, and often considered good Christians by their contemporaries?

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Back too how evolution is at fault for Slavery. Maybe the Evolutionists forced the Christians to take on their evil enslaving ways?

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Pretty clever since Evolution as a theory didn't appear until after Slavery was abolished in the western world...

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Tangible like belief in something for which there is no tangible evidence?

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Your morals are better than mine because you derive them from the a book that teaches us the correct way to treat ones slave?

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Give me a break, you're morals are no more tangible than mine, and since they're dictated to you rather than arrived at independently arguably less so.

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Antimason wrote "science is a tool, it is not in itself moral in anyway"

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Originally posted by antimason:
Citizen- let me preface this by saying, i dont know what you want me to say? am i allowed faith in God?

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why? Marx said himself that communism, as a fully devoloped system WAS secular humanism- that there was no seperation between the two.

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" the humanists firmly believes that the existing acquisitive and profit motivated society has shown itself to be inadequate. a SOCIALIZED and cooperative economic order must be established to the end that acquisitive distribution of the means of life be possible"

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in other words, the absence of God neccessitates communism, because the individual is no longer seen as sovereign, but an assett to the state.

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it is not directly theist, but it plays upon our belief that men are entitled to life and liberty, and everything therein. capitalism is fundementally FREE enterprise, to allow the individual the right to liberty... whereas secular humanism, the admitted philosophy of communism, removes such rights altogether

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its just a different way of looking at it.

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in all of this, you never offer your opinion..

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atleast im willing to put my view out there, and take scrutiny for it.. i dont hear anyone else around here chiming in.

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you dont need a God to tell you what is right or wrong, fine.. how do you know then?

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just to take a quote from Lenin

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"We must combat religion. down with religion; long live Atheism. the spread of Atheism is our cheif task. communism ABOLISHES ETERNAL TRUTHS. it abolishes all religion and morality"

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Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned.

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if there are no eternal truths, what hope do you have that your rights will be protected?

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they used propoganda to twist the message of the bible to decieve these people.. its happening now, its happened to everyone throughout history. how is that God, or the bibles fault? there were plenty of atheists duped by the Nazis.. and not because they were religious in anyway, but because because evolutionary theory is identical to kabbalic gnosticism, which also allowed for the dogma of racial inferiority towards the jews

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by christians, or luciferians? why would christians kill Gods people Citizen?

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no one would have risked their lives in that battle if they didnt believe human life was worth something.. fortunately Britain was once a great christian nation, as was the US.. which allowed for the unbridled prosperity and philosophies of liberty which we have attempt to uphold for the world.

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in any event, im trying to prevent the next Nazi takeover(this time of the world), and instead of joining me, and directing your attention towards the occultists orchestrating terror attacks and establishing their NWO government, people are angry with christians for things that happened centuries ago under the catholic churchs reign.

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you wont tell anyone what you think.. i assume you have beliefs formed dont you? you are quick to criticize me and my worldview.. but you never offer me yours in return

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western nations yes, only because it has been the dominant faith since the 2nd century. before that it was Rome, who worshipped zues at the time.. who was murdering christians for sporting events.

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everyone has there go around.. notice human nature is always fucked up to begin with. there were atheist slave owners aswell.. why didnt they know better? maybe because all people sin? i dont blame the Creator for peoples actions

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a superior arian race is an occult concept, which predates christianity by a few millennia. Darwin just formalized the concept with his work.. and evidence of this was the racial attitudes in America, which became more vitriolic and hateful after the introduction of evolution. not suprising, the KKK, the AMerican sympathizers to the Nazi party, was started by none other than Albert Pike, the Freemason

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than you are unfamiliar with the Kabbalastic concept of the 'golem', the self created organism which spawned the universe.. the gnostic grandfather of evolution. go ahead, google it

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no evidence to you.. i dont believe the universe created itself, i dont believe everything on earth randomly evolved to its current state. my proof is in front of my eyes, the Creation is tangeable. i have never seen an inanimate object spring to life, or a chunk of matter appear from nowwhere.. both of which are presupposed in your theory

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way to frame an arguement. i guess you derive your morals from the rock that billions of years ago spawned you and your ancestors

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go cheat on your wife.. its all relative. go abort a fetus.. its all relative. go murder a criminal..hes just a criminal, its all relative.

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there is nothing about your standards which insures anything for anybody.. so ill take my misunderstood moral dictates any day

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I'm still waiting for an answer. If god created the universe, who created god?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Patriotism IS love. It is love for your country and the people in it.

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It is what causes you to feel outrage and sorrow when our soldiers die.

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It is what causes you to feel charitable when New Orleans is flattened by Hurricane and Flood.

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It is what makes you care when decisions are made which cause others to view your nation in a negative light.

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It is what makes you vote for initiatives that you think will benefit the nation, and against initiatives that you feel will harm it.

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Patriotism is what makes you care about things outside your personal sphere.

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Without patriotism, there would be no 'Us' and 'Them.'

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It would be just 'Me' and 'Everyone Else.' And that's not an improvement.

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Patriotism is just another sphere of love. You love your family. You love your friends. You love your neighborhood. You love your City, your State, your Country.

And if the arguments over Global Warming are anything to go by, you love your World.

Patriotism is a circle of love bigger than family, but smaller than the planet.

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