Tehran Condemns 300 by Dayve

Razza,

I'm going to paraphrase a comment that Rue made in the self-reflection thread: that if they read something they consider inaccurate they feel compelled to correct that inaccuracy. It's a very straightforward approach. *

Geezer uses this against Rue. While it seems that Rue has a very difficult time letting what they perceive as an inaccurate statement be, Geezer seems to have a very difficult time not poking Rue with a needle.

* eta: This can indeed lead to a division of focus. And, over the past few years, it appears to me that Rue is finally just fed up with those who they perceive are serial-inaccurate-statement-makers.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:17 AM

Tell you the truth, what this thread reminded me of is a bunch of nine-year-old boys giggling in the john over a dirty picture. It didn't start that way but that's where it went. And Rue had the misfortune of walking into it.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:23 AM

Well, oddly enough, Rue clapped her hand straight over her mouth when people started bringing actual scholarship into the debate. Interestingly, she was the one that brought factual inaccuracies into the thing. I do find it horribly ironic, but Rue is probably sitting comfortably now, because for once, she was on the minority side of majority opinion, and didn't like it not one little bit. But now it would appear that people are leaping to her defense, which must make her feel awfully vindicated. For the record, I just wish we could all discuss stuff in a calm and rational manner (although I'm all for the occasional jab) rather than degerating into mean-spiritedness.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
Can you show ME where Rue was so offensive? 'Cause I looked through the thread and I can't find it. It did seem to me like Geezer was goading Rue... you know, calling Rue obssessed and stuff. Acting like a picador and claiming it's all fun. Geezer must have been a bully when he was a kid. Or an Eddie Haskell.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
Well Causal, you've joined the ranks of the assholes. Good for you.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:25 AM

Quote:
factual inaccuracies...

Such as....? QUOTE when you say that, fella!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
Slick,

I keep waiting for the punch line ... are you going to get to it any time soon?

Here Rue uses a derogatory term to address Geezer, and while her comment isn't per se an insult, I don't think its much of a compliment either.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
Hunh??? No misleading. I said exactly what I meant. You just need to R-E-A-D _ T-H-E _ W-O-R-D-S I wrote.

Here Rue is being a little condescending you have to admit.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
If ever a culture deserved the Darwin Award, it would be them.

Here Rue has condemned an entire culture as not deserving of simple survival, not sure how that can be construed as anything but an insult.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
Among other things he said the Spartans (in something like leather speedos) looked like unusually fit lifeguards participating in the Doo Dah Parade.

No insult here, but I did find this pretty funny and applicable to the movie and couldn't resist posting again for everyone's amusement.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
...so you really do need to go back and check facts. Something you all seem to be very bad at doing.

Here Rue accuses everyone else in the thread of being bad researchers incapable of knowing the real facts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
Well Causal, you've joined the ranks of the assholes. Good for you.

This one speaks for itself I think.

Does that help JKiddo?

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:30 AM

Soup:

I see what you mean, but the poking is hardly one sided. I think someone else in the thread mentioned that they though Geezer and Rue were an old married couple, seems possible to me the way they shoot back and forth at each other.

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"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JKiddo:
Quote:
factual inaccuracies...
Such as....? QUOTE when you say that, fella!

Quote:
Originally posted by Rue:
Before Spartans are portrayed as uber-men in the heroic western mold I think people need to know Spartan men lived together in groups exclusively and never with women. And the men in those clubs had great sex with each other.

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
"Spartan marriage customs fascinated other Greeks, who knew so little about them anyway. ... In fact, in sexual matters, the Spartans, true to their conservative outlook in everything, seem to have had the highest rate of monogamy in all Greece. They undoubtably had a high respect for their women and regarded them as having a greater equality than the Oriental approach to be found in Ionia, Athens, or Corinth. Also, contrary to the attitude that might have been expected among a warrior caste, homosexuality seems to have been little known--quite unlike the Thebans in northern Greece who were to make a cult among their soldiers of couples fighting side by side together, as in the infamous 'Theban Band of Lovers.'"

From Thermopylae, by Ernle Bradford, Da Capo, 1980. Bradford is British historian specializing in Mediterranean military history.

There's more up there, but that would make for an extremely long post.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:44 AM

Razza,

I don't disagree with you (which is slightly different than saying I agree with you

). And, in the context of numerous exchanges over the past many years here on the RWED, it's pretty clear that Rue and Geezer have an odd type of relationship going on (by relationship, I simply mean the way they relate to each other).

My dad likes to make an observation when we're watching sports based on his own personal experience: it's not the first guy who throws a punch who gets penalized. The refs rarely see the first infraction, they only catch the response. I've seen Rue get flack on these boards for the response while hardly any flack gets tossed at the initial provocation. And, granted, there's been so much water under the bridge that everything is a response now. And if you happen to step into the middle of that you're going to take an elbow somewhere.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 10:49 AM

GEEZER do you have an obsession? Have you sought treatment for this punchline obsession? ...and in FFF.net news, Rue checks into the Henny Youngman Clinic For the Seriously Un-funny for treatment of punchline obsession. Doctors are recommending a regimen of laugh tracks and rimshots. GEEZER characterized HIS contributions to the thread as good clean fun ragging on the Iranians while Rue is snarky. GEEZER hen went on to say And in enertainment news, Sylvester Stallone, who played tough cop John Spartan in the Sci-fi/action adventure Demolition Man, has taken issue with recent slanderous allegations against the Spartan people and issued a personal challenge to left-wing web-pundit Rue. Said Mr. Stallone, "Meet me outside Spagos, Rue, and I'll show you Uber-man." The humor-challenged liberal commentator and sometimes stalker has not yet issued a reply. More as it occurs....My day job is to make fun of stuck-up killjoys

One thing Geezer IS good at- name calling!

And you know personally, having read this thread and Soup's comments it seems to me that he's not worth responding to.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:08 AM

DAYVE

Since we seem to have strayed a bit…here are a few jokes, because… well, it is Friday and maybe we should lighten up just a tad….(gee, hope I don’t offend frigid housewives, boxers and Pages…)

A boxer was getting the tar beat out of him by his opponent. As he was being counted down by the referee for the fourth time in the match, his manager said, “Stay down till eight.”
“Okay,” the dazed boxer said. “What time is it now?”

or…

What’s the worst thing you can say to a man who complains that his wife is frigid?
“No, she isn’t!”

or…

What is the Congressional Record?
…Four pages….

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:16 AM

Joke Friday. I like it.

Here's one that my niece loved when she was younger...

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Interrupting cow.

Interrup-

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:19 AM

JKiddo:

No question that Geezer sent some zingers Rue's way, does that then excuse Rue from doing the same thing and insulting others and the entire Spartan culture?

By the way, why do you think "left-winged web pundit" is an insult? Is there something wrong with left-winged web pundits that I'm not aware of? Just kidding! I know Geezer didn't mean it as a compliment though it could have just as easily been taken as one and thereby spoil Geezer's fun.

Personally, I have to agree with Geezer that the Iranian governments reaction was pretty absurd and hilarious. I think Causal said it best when he suggested that if Rue didn't find it funny, maybe he/she should have just moved on and let others enjoy the humor. There is so little lighthearted banter in these RWED threads that it seems ashame to throw a wet towel on it when you see it.

Interestingly, if Rue had ignored it, we wouldn't even be talking about it and this thread would have died a quick if humorous death. Maybe that was her/his intent?

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"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:28 AM

No question that Geezer sent some zingers Rue's way, does that then excuse Rue from doing the same thing and insulting others and the entire Spartan culture?

hahahah!!!!

Rue is not entitled to self defense?

AFA insulting all of Sparta... I guess that's about the same when Geezer insulted "Persian family values". As I said, I know some Persians. Real nice folks. My daughter is dating one of the boys. All in all, I prefer their family values to Geezer's.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:36 AM

DAYVE! Your jokes offend cuckolded husbands everywhere! But serious....

hahahahahahaha!!!

Thanks for the laugh. And I DO mean that sincerely.

HAPPY FRIDAY EVERYONE.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:41 AM

So now the only way to defend one's self is to insult right back? Wasn't it you who talked about this degenerating into a bunch of nine year olds?

I know you are but what am I? I know you are but what am I?

Obviously there was a better way to react, why didn't Rue use it? And what exactly did Causal do to deserve being called an a##hole? What did the Spartans do to be condemned to cultural annihlation? You do know there are still people about the world who are descended from those original Spartans right?

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"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:45 AM

Why are you blaming the victim?

HAPPY FRIDAY!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:49 AM

I'm not blaming anyone, I'm simply saying that two wrongs don't make a right. Rue ceased being a victim when he/she chose to become a victimizer and use the same tactics used against her/him. Why do you defend those actions? How are they any different than Geezers?

HAPPY FRIDAY TO YOU TOO!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:50 AM

BLAME THE VICTIM!! BLAME THE VICTIM!! YEEEEAAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 11:55 AM

'Ummm... 'cause Geezer started it and too many people were willing to join in? 'Cause this thread was taking a "Lord of the Flies" turn?

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Friday, March 16, 2007 12:00 PM

Uhhmmm...or because the "Lord of the Flies" turn went against the grain of your personal beliefs for a change maybe? I've seen plenty of threads take such a turn. Heck, I've been the object of such turns. I didn't see your heart bleeding for me when it happened, and unlike Rue or Geezer, I try to never insult other people in these forums. It's counterproductive and the tactic of someone who cannot prove their point by reasonable discussion.

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---Andrew Carnegie

"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Friday, March 16, 2007 12:10 PM

Was I in that thread? I'd like to think I'd kick about it in ANY thread even if it involved someone I didn't like. I'm not implying that I don't like you. What I'm saying is that I hope I'd step in if Geezer was being surrounded. But mebbe I'm not as big-hearted as I thought.

Still, I don't see the point of blaming the victim in THIS thread. It only encourages bullies and their wanna-be henchmen. I'll tackle other threads as they come along!

AND YA KNOW, IT'S STILL A HAPPY FRIDAY.

HOPE Y'ALL HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND COMING UP!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 12:44 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Guys.

While I appreciate those who have supported my right to make funnies here, and understand those who reflect Rue's viewpoint, I note that neither Rue or I have been involved in the debate for a while, and it's getting way too serious.

Pax, please.

Therefore, I thank the Persians for codifying laws protecting human rights, thank the Spartans for helping ensure the survival of Greek civilization, and plan to go see 300 next week (based on JASONZZZ's description of the scene with the Oracle of Delphi as "dripping with sexuality").

Hoping I don't offend any Oracles Geezer.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, March 16, 2007 12:47 PM

Well, sh*t. Geezer came with the class.

I am a small man,

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Friday, March 16, 2007 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
...and plan to go see 300 next week (based on JASONZZZ's description of the scene with the Oracle of Delphi as "dripping with sexuality")...

And thirty feet tall--don't forget that part!

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Friday, March 16, 2007 1:23 PM

So I went to see 300 last night. In part because of this thread. In part because of how unexpectedly successful the opening weekend was (the consensus of the traders over at HSX was that it would take in about 45 million over the weekend, it took in 70). In part because I'm always curious about comic book adaptations. In part because I enjoy a well-done sword and sandals movie. In part because the battle at Thermopylae is a compelling event. You get the picture.

My gut take was that this movie did a good job of feeling like a graphic novel. And as long as I didn't stray from that level of viewing the movie it was very enjoyable.

The analytical side of my mind did get taken out of the story every time Leonidas mentioned they were fighting for freedom and I'm looking for help here from those who have studied ancient Sparta more: didn't the Spartans have like a shitload of slaves? (* edited to add: Okay. I went back and read the thread and saw this already came up, so that answers my question

).

I got my money's worth.

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Friday, March 16, 2007 1:34 PM

Soupcatcher:

I agree with you on every point. I saw the movie on Monday and thought they did a very good job of adapting a graphic novel and giving it the artistic feel of such. I was cringing about the "fighting for freedom" stuff when I saw the previews, thought that was a bit ridiculous. While bloody and violent, the movie was very interesting cinematically and I well worth the price of admission. The plot was a bit thin, but what do you expect from a graphic novel adaptation?

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"Doing research on the Web is like using a library assembled piecemeal by pack rats and vandalized nightly."
---Roger Ebert

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:21 AM

DAYVE

For a little different take on the subject, see the 1962 film, '300 Spartans' (or Lion of Sparta, same movie). It doesn't have quite the impact of a graphic novel, but it is the same story. Richard Egan, Diane Baker and David Farrar (his last film before retirement) are some of the actors. Directed by Rudolph Mate. It is a good film, perhaps even slightly ahead of it's time for an action adventure movie.

It would probably be less controversial than '300', but I'm not sure how it would be received in Iran.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
The analytical side of my mind did get taken out of the story every time Leonidas mentioned they were fighting for freedom and I'm looking for help here from those who have studied ancient Sparta more: didn't the Spartans have like a shitload of slaves? (* edited to add: Okay. I went back and read the thread and saw this already came up, so that answers my question ).

At the risk of being accused of being a wet blanket

, I think we have to remember that our conception of "freedom" and theirs are quite different (though it is true to say that ours grew out of theirs). They wouldn't have seen anything inconsistent with fighting for freedom and still being slave holders (hell, our forebears in the U.S. were slave owners, but we still think they were fighting for freedom). To the Greek mind, freedom meant not "individual-liberties-for-all" but something closer to self-rule-and-the-absence-of-tyranny. Many of those Greek city-states were just emerging from periods of being ruled by tyrants and engaging in the democratic experiment. And again, only citizens could vote, but still, it was freedom of a sort. So I think that the Greeks were exactly fighting for freedom: freedom from the domination of a foreign tyrant. Let's not conflate their concept of freedom with ours.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:57 AM

Too bad I won't have time to see the movie. Maybe on DVD.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
The analytical side of my mind did get taken out of the story every time Leonidas mentioned they were fighting for freedom and I'm looking for help here from those who have studied ancient Sparta more: didn't the Spartans have like a shitload of slaves? (* edited to add: Okay. I went back and read the thread and saw this already came up, so that answers my question ).

In fact they were fighting for freedom, what you have to remember is that there is a difference between fighting for freedom and fighting for universal freedom.

Think about the American Revolution, it was a fight for economic and political freedom, and was constantly called a fight for freedom. Were there slaves? More than in Sparta.

The freedoms enjoyed by the slave owning peoples of the Greek peninsula are well recorded, and they fought to the death to defend those freedoms many times. Whether or not the historical Leonidas would have used freedom quite so much is unclear, but all of the Greeks at Thermopylae (not just the Spartans) were fighting for their freedom and I don't think it is hard to imagine that some of them might have mentioned that point, and mentioned it repeatedly.

Quote:
Originally posted by Razza:
The plot was a bit thin, but what do you expect from a graphic novel adaptation?

I think that is more the fault of history than of the graphic novel. There isn't all that much to tell:
Persia wanted submission, symbolized by the gift of earth and water.
The Athenians threw the ambassador into a pit, the Spartans threw theirs into a well.
Oracle at Delphi told Leonidas that Sparta would either be destroyed or mourn the loss of her king.
He gathered a force of 300 men with sons old enough to support their families.
(The Persians slipped around the Greeks at the vale of Tempe.)
The Greeks gathered at Thermopylae to stop the Persian land invasion.
Leonidas said, "Come and get them," when asked for his weapons. Dienekes said, "We shall fight in the shade," when told the Persian arrows would blot out the sun.
Nothing happened for the next four days.
Xerxes sent in one wave of attackers, they were slaughtered.
Xerxes sent in the immortals, they were withdrawn after failing to make any progress.
Xerxes sent in more soldiers, they too failed.
Two days of battle had now elapsed, Xerxes withdrew
At about this point someone (Ephialtes, Onetas or Corydallus) told Xerxes about the pass the 1,000 Phocians were guarding.
The Phoncians cut and ran without a fight.
Leonidas ordered most of the army to retreat, including Aristodemus a Spartan with an eye injury. Only about 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans remained.
The Thebans surrendered.
Everyone else fought to the death.

The movie, and presumably the graphic novel, covers most of that and adds in a bit more.

-

Anyone else think it's funny when (an adaptation of) a true story has a disclaimer at the end saying everything is fake?

Actually it's amazing what disclaimers really say if you read them, according to the disclaimer at the end of V for Vendetta Guy Fawkes is a fictional character and neither the Old Bailey nor Palace of Westminster (the Houses of Parliament) exist in reality.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 10:38 AM

CREVANREAVER

According to Iranian television, it's all a "zionist" conspiracy:

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.
asp?ai=214&ar=1400wmv&ak=null

Amazing how those animals always get around to blaming the Jews.

By the way, 300 is accurate. The Persians were savage subhuman dogs and their descendents today are even worse.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 10:47 AM

CREVANREAVER

Here's a transcript of the lunacy from the savages:

Reporter: Tonight, IRINN commentary also sheds more light on the conspiracy behind the screening of this anti-culture Hollywood film.

Voiceover: Screening of the movie '300' which has depicted war between the Persians and the Greeks, using an unreal and fabricated story, is facing a wave of protests and criticism by Iranians both inside and outside the country. Warner Bros., which belongs to the famous and rich American Jew, is the company that has made the movie. This movie, which is totally against Persian culture and civilization, could be considered a production by Zionists and a group of American extremists. The film '300' shows the historical war between Persians, at the time of King Xerxes, with the Spartans. The director wrongly depicts the Persians as being violent and warmongers. This film is a complete distortion of history. It shows the Spartans, who were warmongers and racists and violent, as peace lovers, and the Persians as uncivilized- which is nothing but a lie. In addition to distortion of history, the Zionist Warner Company is also pursuing cultural and political objectives by producing such a film which has a very shallow script. From the cultural point of view, the Zionists and the elements affiliated to the U.S. have tried to launch a propaganda front against ancient and historical roots of Iranians, and the hasty production of this film is an indication of its propaganda aspect. But political intentions of Warner have been more important than anything else. This film tries to paint a violent image of Persians who are against peace in today's world, in order to increase the international political pressure on Iran. This is while films should be made of crimes committed by the Americans, throughout history, all around the world, and it should be shown what the so-called civilized Zionists and Americans are doing today with human rights and humanity.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Anyone else think it's funny when (an adaptation of) a true story has a disclaimer at the end saying everything is fake?

There was a disclaimer? I think I must have missed it. What did it say?

On second thought, not knowing might give me an adequate justification to drop $7.50 on another ticket...

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
There was a disclaimer? I think I must have missed it. What did it say?

I don't remember the exact words, just that my reaction was one of shock and amusement and that it was clearly false.

If I had to guess I'd say that it was probably the standard, "All places, events and people portrayed in this motion picture are fictitious. Any resemblance to real places, events or people, living or dead, is purely coincidental," but I encourage you to watch it again to find out the true wording.

I started to pay attention to these things when I saw V for Vendetta and the only reason that I noticed that was that it also stated all of the buildings were unrelated to reality (which is a lie) and the fact that the first character on screen was Guy Fawkes, a very real, and very dead, person.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Guy Fawkes, a very real, and very dead, person.

As opposed to...undead?

Hee--love it when I can self-amuse!

Also, just wanted to take the time to say, officially: welcome back, Chris! Where ya been?

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CrevanReaver:
Here's a transcript of the lunacy from the savages:

This is while films should be made of crimes committed by the Americans, throughout history, all around the world

You know as an American I'm always fascinated to learn about our godlike power. For example I was under the impression that Americans (in the modern sense) have only been around for 231 to 400 years (depending on your point of view) so to have committed crimes throughout history (which is substantially longer) we would need incredible influence over time. The kind of influence most scientists think is impossible.

Yay for us and our incredible, criminal, powers.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 1:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Also, just wanted to take the time to say, officially: welcome back, Chris! Where ya been?

Sorry I missed this, I have a habit of starting a post, wondering away, then finishing the post, and forgetting to check to see if anything has been posted in the meantime.

As for where I've been, I've been ... here. Sometimes I just stop posting. Either there aren't any topics that interest me, or I burn out, or something here rubs me the wrong way, or I just stop for reasons I can't explain.

I'm not sure what it was this most recent time, but I'm never actually gone long, it's just sometimes when I come back I can't think of anything to say, so I'm usually silent for longer than I'm gone. Sometimes much longer.

-

Thanks for welcoming me back.

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Saturday, March 17, 2007 4:33 PM