Warning Signs by Jongsstraw

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
The point I was making is that from INSIDE a situation the world can look very different from how it looks outside so Cho's explanation may not reflect general reality, just Cho's reality.

Agreed.

Agreeable Chrisisall

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Monday, April 23, 2007 10:39 AM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Not every child in our society will turn out like that, but our means and methods make damn sure every single one of them has the potential.

This one sentence really jumped out at me. And it really underscores the different ways we think about social systems and physical systems (by physical I am referring to systems that can be reasonably well modeled using the laws of physics).

If it was a physical system we were discussing and we had identified that the design or implementation increased the potential of a negative event occurring we would do something. We would either take steps to decrease the potential or we would satisfy ourselves that the cost of decreasing the potential was greater than the cost of dealing with the negative event given the probability of the event occurring.

Well, social systems are designed and implemented as well. The big difference is that many of the design decisions are masked by culture or history, etc. It's clear that we have a social system that amplifies the negative potential already present in certain individuals. To me, it seems pretty clear that the cost of dealing with the negative events that result from that amplification is way too high. So we have an obligation to take steps to change the system.

But it's more than that. The social system has a negative impact on everyone involved.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else but it really helped me. And all of this is with the caveat that I have a tendency to overapply engineering concepts to social systems (which ticks off my partner, who is in the humanities).

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Monday, April 23, 2007 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
To me, it seems pretty clear that the cost of dealing with the negative events that result from that amplification is way too high.

Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else

Make perfect, logical sense, Soup.

Chrisisall

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Monday, April 23, 2007 11:14 AM

FLETCH2

Taking the engineering analogy even further no matter how well designed something is you can get one off component failures. I don't know many businesses that would pay the expense to "rework the line" to try to correct 1 failure in 6 Million (which is the chance of a school/college shooting)most would keep the line the same and accept the failure cost.

In more general terms I think 3 things are going on here.

1) Parents are increasingly disconnected from their kids and their kids problems. Some of this is economic some of it societal but it deprives kids of parental support.

2) Pressure has definately increased, both performance pressure and peer pressure.

3) I know that people don't want to hear it bit there is a copycat effect. At one time kids that couldn't take it commited suicide, now culture and reporting of previous shootings suggest that if you take folks out with you then you become a "somebody." I think there are deeply unhappy kids that may kill themselves now TV suggests that if they kill others too they can die as celebrities.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 1:29 PM

FREMDFIRMA

#1 - Abso-fekkin-lutely, many of our social timebombs are "Latchkey Kids" if anyone remembers that idiocy.

#2 - Definately, often in combination with #1, trying to run a household at the early teen age because your parent or parents are unavailable due to working long hours just to pay the bills is more stressful than those who have never been there could imagine, add in class, grade and peer pressure, and it's quite an unpleasant situation indeed.

#3 - I dunno about the celebrity aspect, it seems more to me a combination of 2 factors.

A- One way or another, the intolerable situation ENDS, right there.
B- They wanna send society at large a message.

Believe me, if there was any way to get it to those considering copycatting, I would put it in neon lights - Message Recieved, You Can Stop Now.... but society doesn't get it, ignores it, and so it continues.

I rather doubt someone facing imminent death really cares all that much for celebrity status, rather more so they want their message carried across loud and clear.

As for how to carry it across to would be copycatters that we've heard it, and wish to act on it ? mere words won't cut it, nor will more draconian measures, those will only reinforce the belief that death and violence are their only escape... we need to *show* them that we've got the point and are willing to work on the problem.

And for that, we have to be honestly willing to do it, not throw a couple quick bandaids on it and go back to ignoring it till the next one.

Don't ever think this cannot eventually devolve into generational warfare.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, April 23, 2007 3:43 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Name that poet:

Quote:

Nigger
Can you kill
Can you kill
Can a nigger kill
Can a nigger kill a honkie
Can a nigger kill the Man
Can you kill nigger
Huh? Nigger can you
kill
Do you know how to draw blood
Can you poison
Can you stab-a-Jew
Can you kill huh? Nigger
Can you kill
Can you run a protestant down with your
‘68 El Dorado
(that’s all they’re good for anyway)
Can you kill
Can you piss on a blond head
Can you cut it off
Can you kill
A nigger can die
We ain’t got to prove we can die
We got to prove we can kill

and

Also a company called Revolution has just issued
A special kit for little boys
Called Burn Baby
I’m told it has full instructions on how to siphon gas
And fill a bottle

and

and it occurred to me
maybe i shouldn't write
at all
but clean my gun
and check my kerosene supply

Answer:

Professor Yolande Cornelia "Nikki" Giovanni, English and Black Studies, Virginia Tech University, teacher of shooter Cho Seung-hui, who gave the eulogy for 33 students murdered by her student.
www.vdare.com/sailer/070422_giovanni.htm

Giovanni taught the Virginia Tech shooter Seung-hui Cho in a poetry class. She described him as troubled and downright "mean" and, when she approached the department chair to have Cho taken out of her class, said she was willing to resign rather than continue teaching him. She also claimed that she immediately suspected that Cho might be the shooter when she heard about the shooting, and would have been shocked otherwise. She has a tattoo with the words "Thug life" to honor Tupac Shakur, whom she admired.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Giovanni

Where is the nigger from?

Answer:

My home town in Tennessee. Also home of Bushes' Skull & Bones mayor/ambassador/boytoy Victor "Victoria" Ashe, introduced on TV as "the openly gay mayor of Knoxville". Also home of Controlled Demolitions Inc, et al.

Mind Control 101...

More "coincidences" - the shooter's Korean sister is employed by CIA and Bush Jr's nappy ho Kinda Sleazy Rice. Bush was in charge of police at VA Tech, after the convenient copkilling there last year, and ordered the local cops to stand down to allow the body count to rise, just like he did on 9/11. VA Tech has CIA contracts for mind control experiments on students. CIA holds recruiting seminars for students on VA Tech campus - and on most college campuses.
www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=28209

"You can't stop the signal!"
-Mr Universe, Pirate TV

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

DRIVE BY MIND CONTROL: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

Difficile est saturam non scribere

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Monday, April 23, 2007 4:58 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I supervise nine chemists, one technician, and a senior chemist and I fired (yep fired) a poor performer from a government position. I'm also a household employer and I've fired some of those folks too. I also parent a neurologically challenged and defiance-prone teen. And I tell you with all honesty that I have NEVER seen anyone motivated by criticism, not once. You can teach people to fear YOU, you might even get them to avoid a particular behavior but you will certainly not get better performance and greater motivation through fear. You get far better performance from instruction and reward. That is not to say that there shouldn't be consequences. I DO fire people, and I don't believe in enabling bad habits. But once the standards are known and the consequences are clear, and you've gone through a performance improvement plan then it's up to the person to decide what they're going to do.

Good for you. Do you want a cookie? I don’t know what kind of work you do or what kind of superior you are to your subordinates. Based on your personality on this board, I would suspect that quite a few people on this board, including me, snickered at the notion that you could possibly be uncritical about anything. But people’s online personalities are generally independent of the realworld personalities. So I take your word for it.

Speaking hypothetically, it’s dangerous when a superior lacks the self inspection to see their own criticism, because what that means, more often then not, is that the superior will obliviously step over the line more frequently. Meaning that a superior who is unable to see his or her own critical arguments to his subordinates is often and unknowingly overly harsh. I know such a guy. He’s an asshole much of the time and doesn’t even realize it. If you get him away from work, he's really a nice guy. Not that you like that. I’m sure you’re a basket of roses at work. But just as curious is this idea that professional criticism is tantamount to “fear.” In order for you to feel like criticism exists, you must perceive some degree of fear from your subordinates? You can say all kinds of mean and rotten things before you ever get to the point where your subordinates are perceptively afraid of you.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Hey! I do not! Neither (as I recall) does Frem. Nor do I propose or suggest that personal attacks improve debate. So watch who you're sticking with the criticism, OK?

Of course, you’ve already laid out that you’re never critical of anyone. And as far as Frem is concerned, well some of the comments I’ve read from him about Christians alone exceed anything that might be called criticism. But I’m not going to get into specifics. If for no other reason then that it seems futile. Whether you believe it or not, professional criticism does exist and it is instrumental in the workplace, particularly in fields of medicine and science, and there are few times, that I can think of, in which that criticism should extend to “fear,” but it does exist. I’ve worked professionally in two very different fields, as a medical physicist for a biomaterials and oncology lab and then as an analysis for the Army. In both cases there was a high degree of competitive and constructive criticism, which maintained our professional productivity and precision of product. But these are important jobs in which quite frankly the lives of other people were dependent upon the success of our product, so perhaps that drove us to a higher degree of critical analysis then is perhaps necessary in your work. I don’t know.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, April 23, 2007 4:58 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
EDIT: To tell the truth, I remember worrying that he might beat me up for my little wig-out, I wouldn't have my knife with me all the time. Imagine my happy surprise when he just never talked to me again, heh heh.

It seems like most of the harshest Bullying that I dealt with in school ended with me getting my ass kicked, and I got the scars to prove it. It generally ended there though. After that one fight it was over. They didn’t bully me anymore and in at least two instances, the bully ended up being a friend later on. Go figure.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 5:23 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Good for you. Do you want a cookie? I don’t know hat kind of work you do or what kind of superior you are to your subordinates. Based on your personality on this board, I would suspect that quite a few people on this board, including me, snickered at the notion that you could possibly be uncritical about anything. But people’s online personalities are generally independent of the realworld personalities. So I take your word for it.

except ...

Quote:
Speaking hypothetically, it’s dangerous when a superior lacks the self inspection to see their own criticism, because what that means, more often then not, is that the superior will obliviously step over the line more frequently. Meaning that a superior who is unable to see his or her own critical arguments to his subordinates is often and unknowingly overly harsh. I know such a guy. He’s an asshole much of the time and doesn’t even realize it. If you get him away from work, he's really a nice guy. Not that you like that. I’m sure you’re a basket of roses at work. But just as curious is this idea that professional criticism is tantamount to “fear.” In order for you to feel like criticism exists, you must perceive some degree of fear from your subordinates? You can say all kinds of mean and rotten things before you ever get to the point where your subordinates are perceptively afraid of you.

hah hah hah! You clearly don't know me! Professional criticism from a supervisor (such as myself) might elicit fear. Criticism between peers is a different situation. Context is important.

Quote:
Of course, you’ve already laid out that you’re never critical of anyone.

No. that's not what I said. I said that motivating through fear doesn't work.

Quote:
And as far as Frem is concerned, well some of the comments I’ve read from him about Christians alone exceed anything that might be called criticism. But I’m not going to get into specifics. If for no other reason then that it seems futile.

I guess I misremembered.

Quote:
Whether you believe it or not, professional criticism does exist and it is instrumental in the workplace, particularly in fields of medicine and science,

It's very useful in brainstorming, in looking at problem from all angles (such as we do here on the board)

Quote:
and there are few times, that I can think of, in which that criticism should extend to “fear,” but it does exist. I’ve worked professionally in two very different fields, as a medical physicist for a biomaterials and oncology lab and then as an analysis for the Army. In both cases there was a high degree of competitive and constructive criticism, which maintained our professional productivity and precision of product. But these are important jobs in which quite frankly the lives of other people were dependent upon the success of our product, so perhaps that drove us to a higher degree of critical analysis then is perhaps necessary in your work. I don’t know.

Out of curiosity, how was this "competitive and constructive criticism" exchanged? Between peers? Through several levels of hierarchy? Formally? Over the coffeepot?

The problem that I have with my group is that everyone is doing something unique. Altho I try to make sure everyone is cross-trained, right now I'm so short-staffed that I can't afford overlap so person A doesn't get much involved with person B.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 5:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
But it's more than that. The social system has a negative impact on everyone involved.

Not everyone Soup. The moneymakers positively benefit from the fucked up system we live in.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 5:30 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

huh

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Monday, April 23, 2007 6:06 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Out of curiosity, how was this "competitive and constructive criticism" exchanged? Between peers? Through several levels of hierarchy? Formally? Over the coffeepot?

Between peers and over levels of hierarchy. Rarely over the coffeepot. In fact, I would discourage that kind of criticism and so do my superiors, if it occurred, but the people I work with are professionals, so it doesn’t occur. I encourage all my subordinates to provide criticism where appropriate. Perhaps in your case, where you have no overlap, that might be difficult, but nonetheless, certainly some degree of critical inspection goes into your office, somewhere. But we actively seek to encourage peer review so that when our product goes out, it is free of mistakes. I think it’s a crucial practice, and I couldn’t even begin to number all the corrections we’ve been able to make because of it.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 6:24 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

We have all kinds of cross-checking. In fact we have three levels of checking: at the chemist, senior, and supervisor (me). That's not the same as criticism, tho. At some later date I'd like to get some insight as to how your group functions.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 6:57 PM

I'm still confused about what professional criticism has to do with schoolyard bullying.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Monday, April 23, 2007 7:14 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Yeah, I was wondering that my own self.

If we think of children as raw material that needs to be heated and beaten and combined until they are finally turned into swords then the schoolyard bullying makes a certain amount of sense.

Otherwise I'm not seeing much positive there at all.

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Monday, April 23, 2007 9:36 PM

SOUPCATCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
2) Pressure has definately increased, both performance pressure and peer pressure.

Amen to the performance pressure.

I've been tutoring high school students in science and math for a while. I've also tutored on the undergraduate level (from R1 to community college) off and on for the past ten years. It is amazing to me the stress that these students are under and the schedules that they maintain.

It's been a couple of decades since I started high school and it is possible that my memory of that time is purposefully hazy. That said, what these students are going through is at least an order of magnitude greater than what I went through. One of my goals is to improve their learning efficiency because they see no way to slow down the amount they are trying to process.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 3:36 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I'm still confused about what professional criticism has to do with schoolyard bullying.

When we are younger and in school, the criticism is considered at a rookie level. I guess posters are trying to draw present day comparisons as most of us have been out of school for awhile now.

Posting to stir stuff up.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 4:24 AM

Well clearly something is going on beyond the individual because there is a HUGE difference between our society and EVERY other industrialized society in the world. How do you explain that?

I guess that depends on your definitions; or are you honestly suggesting that w're the only country that has murderers?

Or mass murderers?

Or serial killers?

Or terrorist acts? (by the by if Cho had strapped a bomb to himself we'd be calling it that, not a rampage...same effect different politics)

Also there is already a disconnect between the fact that as contries go the US is one of the largest in size, population, culture, & personal freedoms.

Let us not forget that the debate has already mutated out there...the hardware is already becoming the focus, I have a question...how come a non-citizen can obtain the "evil hardware"?

Is anyone suggesting deporting the family (after all there is a history of mental instability in the family?), or is that too "incorrect"?

Let me ask you a question, or anyone for that matter, while the debate about hardware begins again:

Does anyone out there honestly believe that the police can "protect" people on an individual level?

Does anyone out there honestly believe that that is thier job?

Does anyone believe that a 90-year old woman with a walker is going to fend off an 18-28 year old assailent wielding a knife using hand to hand or melee weapons?

Do little old ladies or gentleman only get robbed in the US?

My wife weighs about 108 lbs. She is not trained in martial arts...same assailent what would you suggest she use...harsh language? (And spare me the platitudes about stun guns & pepper spray...stun guns are in close weapons that require Hand-to-hand skills to use effectively in combat & pepper spray is ineffective on many people)

Give me a realistic alternative & I'll be more than happy to listen.

Just keep in mind that the political powers of the world have been trying to take the power of the firearm out of the hands of "the common man" almost since it was introduced.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 5:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
When we are younger and in school, the criticism is considered at a rookie level. I guess posters are trying to draw present day comparisons as most of us have been out of school for awhile now.

Ahh... well if the point is to find adult social settings analagous with public schools, prisons are a much better example.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:35 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

RojBlake

Quote:
I guess that depends on your definitions; or are you honestly suggesting that w're the only country that has murderers? Or mass murderers? Or serial killers? Or terrorist acts? (by the by if Cho had strapped a bomb to himself we'd be calling it that, not a rampage...same effect different politics) Also there is already a disconnect between the fact that as contries go the US is one of the largest in size, population, culture, & personal freedoms.

Of course not. Every population has SOME deviants in it. But the United States has more PER CAPITA than all other industrialized nations: Here are the ones 5+/5- from the USA ranking (per thousand people, to account for differences in poulation size)

Costa Rica: 0.061006
Poland: 0.0562789
Georgia: 0.0511011
Uruguay: 0.045082
Bulgaria: 0.0445638
United States: 0.042802
Armenia: 0.0425746
India: 0.0344083
Yemen: 0.0336276
Dominica: 0.0289733
Azerbaijan: 0.0285642

Compared to nations that we're more familiar with:

France 0.0173272 (approx 1/2 of USA)
Australia 0.0150324 (approx 1/3)
Canada 0.0149063 (approx 1/3)
United Kingdom: 0.0140633 (approx 1/3)
Germany 0.0116461 (approx 1/4)
Japan 0.00499933 (approx 1/10)

Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?

Gun ownerhsip by nation: Percent of homes with firearms
Australia 16%
Japan 1%
Canada 26%
New Zealand 20%
Finland 50%
Norway 32%
France 23%
Spain 13%
Germany 9%
United Kingdom 4%

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?

I'm gonna go with arresting more people for more crimes.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 8:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Among industrialized nations, the USA crime rate sticks out like a sore thumb. What are we doing differently from them?

Glorifying gun-violence in our movies and TV shows. We need more stuff like Buffy and Dark Angel where the main characters look down on gun use.

Seriously, Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Cho is like a lot of other extreme cases. Whatever might work to deal with people like him is not what will work to deal with most.

The US:
10,105 gun-related homicides out of 14,860 (2005)
16,907 gun-related suicides (2004)
54,447 non-fatal violence-related gunshots (2000)
23,237 non-fatal accidental gunshots (2000)

Cho's approximate relative contribution is 0.3% of all homicides, 0.006% of all suicides, and 0.05% of all non-fatal gunshots.

To eliminate the largest part of the problem, you need to address the OTHER gun owners. I realize there are many responsible people who own guns. But in their quest to retain their legal right to own guns they end up having to answer for the yahoos, macho-shitheads, flakes, bubbas, greedy bastards, abusers, and gangstas who also own guns.

So I put it out there: what would YOU do to clean up the gun owning population, so that everyone would be as well-intended, knowledgeable, moderate and responsible as you?

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:22 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I'm gonna go with arresting more people for more crimes.

Oh yeah, THAT'LL help!

Prisoners per capita- WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
United States: 715 prisoners per 100,000 people

Comparing prisoners per 100,000 (1st number) to murders per 100,000 (2nd number)

United States 715, 43
Russia 584, 202
Belarus 554, 98
Palau 523, unk
Beliz 459, unk
Suriname 437, unk
Dominica 420, 29
Ukraine 416, 94
Bahamas 410, unk
South Africa 402, 496

Prisoners per 100,000 of nations that we know:

Canada 15
Germany 12
UK 43
Japan 5

Clearly, the nations that achieve low murder rates do so w/o resorting to high incarceration rates. And despite an incarceration rate that is more than 20-150X theirs, our murder rate is far higher.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:44 AM

The problem is that whenever you do statistics you usually get a somewhat skewed result. A few years ago a stydy was done county by county, state by state & the results were pretty interesting.

One of the other problems is that the numbers don't cover non-reported instances of guns/weapons being used in a deterrent capacity.

However the other truth is this, guns do not = violence.

I realize that this is a popular belief, but it simply isn't true.

Also in some of those statistics that were posted...how does one have gun violence in countries that don't allow guns?

For that matter how does one get guns in a "gun-free" zone or state? Simple you disobey the law/rules.

This has always been the crux of the matter, laws punish the law abiding.

The US isn't going to ban guns...it will make it more difficult to obtain, it will make it easier to victimize innocent but it won't ban it outright.

The US tried banning alcohol=faliure.

The US won't ban cigarettes=loss of tax revenue (hell the US subsidises tobacco farmers)

The US will interfere with it's citizens whenever it can. (seriously we have guys like Ted Kennedy trying to tel us how/ what we can eat)

Does anyone have any idea how much money is involved in the gun industry in this country? In tax revenue alone it's probably in the "billions".

Carry permits, hunting licenses, hunter-safety courses, ammunition, holsters, gun cleaning supplies, shooting sports, etc.

One of the fastest growing sports in this country is "Cowboy Action Shooting", which is also one of those "cultural differences" I mentioned before.

The gun in linked to this countries heritage...Culumbus had matchlock muskets back in 1492.

Unlike many other nations our heroes were not only armed with guns, alot of them were outlaws.

The founding fathers were considered traitors weren't they?

Jesse James, Billy the Kid, et al. I bet if you sat down & thought about it you could name far more outlaws & criminals glorified out of our history than the more traditional "hero types".

This site is dedicated to a group of criminals...Mal & company are criminals right?

Mal & company are also based on our rather colorful western history.

Buffy would be considered a vigalante.

How about our other icons...pirates.

Let's be honest here, no peace beyond the line?

Europe left the new world to crate its own rules...& it did.

Blackbeard, Black Bart Roberts, etc.

Hell Europes greatest rouges are some of our greatest "pistol packing" heroes...Henry Morgan for instance (we even named a rum after him).

These are part of our national culture...& yes it's violent & ugly. It was also part of our popular culture long before the advent of TV or cinema. Billy the Kid read about his glorified exploits in his own lifetime.

England imposed taxes & restrictions that allowed piracy & smugglers to flourish as part of our early survival...it's one of the reasons that our national character was defined by such men.

Right now one of the hottest media properties is "Captain Jack Sparrow", I like the movies...but be honest, what characteristics make that character worthy of praise & adoration?

Consider the much vaunted Star Wars franchise...one of the most popular characters...Han Solo (smuggler & pirate).

I'm sure we can all go through many more such examples...so if the argument is that the US culture is different from that of Europe, you're right.

Then again I like pirates & cowboys, I like Cowboy Action Shooting, I like Han Solo, & I think the crew of Serenity is probably one of the great creations of modern science fiction.

Not going to apologize for any of that.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:48 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So I put it out there: what would YOU do to clean up the gun owning population?

I would make any and all kinds of guns legal (to be anally compliant with the NRA's interpretation of ammendment 2) BUT to own a weapon you first have to agree to be shot with it in the extremity of your choice. If you are caught with an illegal weapon that legal requirement is done after arrainment but the police officer gets to choose where to shoot you.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
I'm gonna go with arresting more people for more crimes.
Oh yeah, THAT'LL help!

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just saying that part of the reason our crime stats are so high is that we arrest more people. I was being glib.

In general it's hard for me to take statistical arguments seriously.

** ROJBLAKE -

Is there any reason why your posts all come out double spaced? It makes them a pain in the butt to read and it's wearing out my scroll wheel. :)

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:

Also in some of those statistics that were posted...how does one have gun violence in countries that don't allow guns?

Speaking from a purely Irish point of view - we don't allow explosives either but that never stopped the IRA.

*edit* Getting back to the subject of the post - you can't target the mentally ill, label them as dangerous and expect that to protect people. It won't. It'll make things worse. People people who need help won't get it. They'll avoid it like the plague. The stigma around mental health is bad enough as it is!

Like I said before, one in five people suffer mental illness at some point in their lives. Hell, I've been mentally ill (clinical depression for those who are curious, yeah yeah, the hippie is crazy, don't all fall off your chairs laughing at once) and the chances are you know someone else who has been mentally ill - whether they've chosen to tell you are not. Of that group, a significant percentage will act erratically or violently at some point. It's not because they're dangerous killers - it's because they're sick and they need help. Putting a "warning! abusive!" sign around their necks won't help. In fact, it's likely to cause massive stress and self consciousness and increase feelings of paranoia and isolation - none of which are good things no matter how stable you are. Think for five minutes what it would be like to wear a label like that. You want someone who's mentally ill to go through that???

No, it's not the solution. There are no easy answers to this question. But you'll get a hell of a lot further with a well funded, well run mental health service that can provide as much psychiatric assistance and properly prescribed medication as is needed to anyone who needs it for as long as they need it. And having a society that talks openly and honestly about mental health issues won't hurt either!

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:52 AM

too dumb to post - double post sort of

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:00 AM

Prisoners per capita- WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
United States: 715 prisoners per 100,000 people

Comparing prisoners per 100,000 (1st number) to murders per 100,000 (2nd number)

United States 715, 43
Russia 584, 202
Belarus 554, 98
Palau 523, unk
Beliz 459, unk
Suriname 437, unk
Dominica 420, 29
Ukraine 416, 94
Bahamas 410, unk
South Africa 402, 496

Prisoners per 100,000 of nations that we know:

Canada 15
Germany 12
UK 43
Japan 5

Clearly, the nations that achieve low murder rates do so w/o resorting to high incarceration rates. And despite an incarceration rate that is more than 20-150X theirs, our murder rate is far higher.

Really? look at your own numbers.

The UK & US have the same incarceration rate.

Russia is way out there.

Also, these numbers are probably not accurate. There are reports of these events being altered by politicians to suit thier needs.

Firearms charges are often dropped to make political points, also many times suicides are lumped with "handgun deaths" to bolster the numbers etc.

By the way, how many in your numbers are repeat offenders that were released early because of the political correctness that permiates our legal system?

I believe that another statistic is that 90% of the crime in this country is comitted by 7% of the populace.

Also how many of those incarcerated or murders are caused by people of other nationalities, illeagal or otherwise?

We have 2 INS border patrolmen in prison right now for shooting a drug dealer who was in this country illeagally & filed charges from another country. (Reason that the're in prison...politics)

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:09 AM

I think the real and final answer is to let our government become the fascist regime they would like to become; they could outlaw guns, and crush those who would defy them. Most fat, lazy, clumbsy Americans couldn't kill with their bare hands, or even a sword- so murder rates would go down.

Or we could begin honouring our children by keeping them safe in the prisons- er, I mean, the schools.
Bitter? Yep. I resent the whole 'not-my-problem' attitude in the public schools concerning bullies.
I beat the crap out of a bully in History class in 9th grade when the teacher left for a few minutes, and bully-boy thought that was a good moment to attack me.
He was on the wrestling team, he thought he was such hot s**t and never saw it coming. Made me feel good for a few minutes there, but why did I have to do it? Why does the system allow that to happen at all?

Family values my ass.

No Child Left Alone should be the name of THAT program.

Grrr Arghh Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I think the real and final answer is to let our government become the fascist regime they would like to become; they could outlaw guns, and crush those who would defy them. Most fat, lazy, clumbsy Americans couldn't kill with their bare hands, or even a sword- so murder rates would go down.

Or we could begin honouring our children by keeping them safe in the prisons- er, I mean, the schools.
Bitter? Yep. I resent the whole 'not-my-problem' attitude in the public schools concerning bullies.
I beat the crap out of a bully in History class in 9th grade when the teacher left for a few minutes, and bully-boy thought that was a good moment to attack me.
He was on the wrestling team, he thought he was such hot s**t and never saw it coming. Made me feel good for a few minutes there, but why did I have to do it? Why does the system allow that to happen at all?

Family values my ass.

No Child Left Alone should be the name of THAT program.

Grrr Arghh Chrisisall

I remember boiling with rage when I was given punishment homework after a fight - the first I'd ever been in. Like you, I'd been attacked by a bully - who had tried to start a fight with me for three days running. I was livid because I knew damn well that the teacher knew the girl had been bullying me and hadn't done a damn thing. In fact, when I had complained of being bullied I'd been told that I was too sensitive.

One of my few regrets in life is doing that damn homework. Back then I just wasn't the type to question a teacher, no matter how unfair I thought the situation was. I really wish I'd been able to speak up. But then, it was the very fact that I couldn't that made them label me as "too sensitive" and leave me to get "toughened up" by a couple of years of misery.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:16 AM

"Speaking from a purely Irish point of view - we don't allow explosives either but that never stopped the IRA."

Exactly, explosives aren't leagal in this country either (without the proper permits) but as I posted earlier you can walk into a grocery store & get the chemicals nessecary to set off a pretty decent size blast.

At Columbine they did just that. Cho could have done the same...it would have actually been cheaper. Cho laid out aroung $1,000 dollars for some upper-end hardware. Glock & Walther are 2 of the most expensive brands around.

Check me on this...the IRA uses guns too right?

Do "terrorist acts" end up in the statistics?

As I pointed out before, Cho's actions could easily be defined as a terrorist act, but because he used guns it never will be.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:23 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Look at your own numbers."
Ahem. Clearly you can't read.

Comparing prisoners per 100,000 United States 715, UK 43. And you say "The UK & US have the same incarceration rate". Not even close, try again.

Numbers not accurate? Sure ok, but not enough to change themn by a factor of 20.

"many times suicides are lumped with "handgun deaths"" Not true. Specifically, these numbers were separated out.

"Firearms charges are often dropped to make political points ..." So you are saying US number should be higher? How does this help your position?

"released early because of the political correctness" This is just insulting BS. So, to try to not be too insulting back, let me just ask you for some kind of data to back up your BS.

90% of the crime in this country is comitted by 7% ... caused by people of other nationalities, illeagal or otherwise ... politics. More BS.

If you's gonna play wit da big boys, you betta bring you big boy game. Otherwise you end up looking

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 10:39 AM

Sorry I misread your numerical posts.

The 90% to 7% I believe is valid, it's either 7% or 14%. Or was about 5 years ago.

As to weather or not handgun deaths/suicides are used in the same stats, where did you get your stats?

The political coprrectness comment was NOT insulting sorry if you took it that way. There is a policy in many parts of this country of letting some truly despicable people back on the streets. The average murderer serves (on average) less that 7 years.

As to your "big boy" comment...now who's being insulting?

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:
Check me on this...the IRA uses guns too right?

Not any more. A ceasefire was negotiated a few years ago, and now they've officially disbanded and "put their arms beyond use."

Quote:

Do "terrorist acts" end up in the statistics?

Yep. The statistics I'm aware of anyway. You can have a look at the fascinating world of irish statistics at the Central Statistics Office website - www.cso.ie

Quote:

"Speaking from a purely Irish point of view - we don't allow explosives either but that never stopped the IRA."

Exactly, explosives aren't leagal in this country either (without the proper permits) but as I posted earlier you can walk into a grocery store & get the chemicals nessecary to set off a pretty decent size blast.

I have to say that argument doesn't make sense to me. It may be because I'm from a pretty non-gun culture and have a different outlook, but it sounds like your saying that there's no point in banning an effective killing weapon from general public access because if people try hard enough they'll find something else to kill you with. Yes, there are many, varied, inventive ways a human can kill another human, but guns are built to do nothing but kill - that's what they're made for, and they do it at long range.

Buying stuff needed to make a bomb takes time. Making a bomb takes time. Planting a bomb takes time, skill and a certain amount of luck unless you're planning to blow yourselve up with it and therefore don't care about getting caught planting it. The issue you're facing is that people don't have to do any of that stuff. They just walk into a shop and buy a gun. Or borrow a friends'. Or their parents' guns. If it's that easy to get your hards on something that kills people, how can you expect things like this not to happen?

Quote:

At Columbine they did just that. Cho could have done the same...it would have actually been cheaper. Cho laid out aroung $1,000 dollars for some upper-end hardware. Glock & Walther are 2 of the most expensive brands around.

At Columbine they used guns too. You know why? Because, like Cho, they wanted to kill everyone and, like Cho, they knew that guns do the job better.

A bomb will blow you to bits if you're on top of it. I'll blow off bits if you're further away. It'll start fires that burn people, crushes that hurt people and throw out shrapnel that'll rip right through the human body, but unless it's massive it won't kill everyone in a room.

Terrorists here had a brutal tactic. They would plant two bombs. The first one would go off, people who hadn't been hurt would run away, and then the second one would go off near an exit and kill the people trying to get to safety. Even with tactics like that, it's hard to kill a room full of people with a bomb.

When you want to kill everyone you do what Cho did - what the Columbine kids did - you walk around the room and systematically shoot everyone you find. Then you go back, and if anyone is moving, you shoot them again. A bomb can't do that. It can't pick off eveyone in a room one by one. That's why the gun is the mass killer's weapon of choice.

*edit* Also, guns are easy to hide in a shared dorm room. Several bags of fertilizer, lighter fluid and copper wiring? Not so much.

Quote:

As I pointed out before, Cho's actions could easily be defined as a terrorist act, but because he used guns it never will be.

Again this could be a cultural thing, but I'd always assumed terrorist to mean someone who kills as part of a political agenda. I could be wrong though. Is the unabomber considered a terrorist or a serial killer? Are the columbine killers considered terrorists because they used bombs?

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:29 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The 90% to 7% I believe is valid, it's either 7% or 14%. Or was about 5 years ago. link

As to weather or not handgun deaths/suicides are used in the same stats, where did you get your stats? A CDC

There is a policy in many parts of this country of letting some truly despicable people back on the streets. A But the reason has nothing to do with 'political correctness' and more to do with jail overcrowding, 'cause some people think it's more important to jail non-violent addicts rather than treat them in a non-jail setting, and letting the violent go free.

As to your "big boy" comment...now who's being insulting? A You're kidding, right?

(RojBlake had finally had enough. He took out his semi-automatic and ... JUST KIDDING !)

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ponder this for a moment, in many years of carrying, I have never had to pop a round at another person, that's a 0.0% addition, and may it stay that way forever.

Statistically speaking, sure, it's unlikely I will find myself facing a situation where that may be needful - however given my employment and location grant me that it's more likely than your average citizen.

Well, statistically speaking, it's unlikely I will have a flat, or that my house will catch fire, but is that a reason to dump the spare from my car, the fire extinguisher from my house ?

It's the same basic reasoning, once you remove the ridiculous fear of an inanimate thing from the equation.

That being said... Hippie ?

I got into a lot of brawls in school before becoming adept *enough* at violence that it was a complete deterrent, and one of the schools I went to had an idiotic policy of suspending BOTH participants in a fight under the bullshit assumption that "It takes two to tango", something STILL espoused by many schools even in light of it's complete idiocy.

Well, this punk by the name of Ian decided to take issue with the fact that I was polluting the white race by dating a mixed girl, and after about ten minutes of racial hate spewing, conveniently ignored by the teacher, in response to finally being told "oh shut it, will you?", takes a swing at me in front of the entire class, the teacher, and the assistant admin who happened to be walking down the hall... and in that freeze frame moment, I decided to let it land, which hurt like a bitch mind you, he blacked my eye but good.

And then stood to it and let him pound on me till the teacher pulled him off.

And they still suspended me, even though I had no part in the fight, even though I did not raise a hand even in my own defense, quoting their asinine "policy".

My mother tried to address this stupidity with the school and was nastily rebuffed, resulting in a "green light" for what happened next, as this punk would not leave it alone, and the NEXT time a swing was thrown, severe ugliness resulted, followed by expulsion, mine.

That blame the victim shit has to go, and they ought to be damned glad I didn't read Enders Game till I was sixteen, or I would have handed out the "Stilson Treatment" to some of these punks myself - so forgive me if when the same rhetoric is applied to CCW, I get a bit snippy about it.

As for the prison anology, Sarge ?

A substantial amount of school personnel, at least in Baltimore City and North AA county is concerned, are former corrections officers, up to and including the principal of one school I went to, who was referred to even by the students as "The Warden" and chose indeed to run her school like that, right down to playing factions against each other to keep them out of HER hair - many admins run their schools like prisons or kennels, with an adversarial relation to the students, considering them less than people, and those admins need to be drummed out of the entire educational system.

And Roj ?

The folks you are speaking of are called "Lifestyle Violent Offenders", crossreference with the work of Andrew Vachss and you might find the statistics in question, I know he's mentioned them a time or two.

And this horror of a society creates them, which is the main point of a lot of what I am saying here.

-Frem

EDIT

Quote:
There is a policy in many parts of this country of letting some truly despicable people back on the streets. A But the reason has nothing to do with 'political correctness' and more to do with jail overcrowding, 'cause some people think it's more important to jail non-violent addicts rather than treat them in a non-jail setting, and letting the violent go free.

Agreed, this war on drugs madness eats up prison space that should be used for those violent offenders that simply can not, or will not, be rehabilitated... the only thing I've ever seen a pothead viciously assault was my fridge.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:42 AM

Actuaally I would consider Cho's a terrorist act because of his "manifesto" sending the stuff to NBC etc. Columbine had no such elements, the stuff they found later wasn't planned as a part of ant "statement". Also Cho's stuff didn't come accross as a "suicide note", to me anyway.

As I pointed out in another post there are indeed other uses for firearms, Cowboy Action Shooting is a sport, hunting, relaxation (yes I actually find shooting paper targets relaxing), etc.

Swords were made to kill exclusively too, & yet in the 1500's Spain tried to impliment :dagger control".

Also you don't "just walk into a shop & buy a gun", not anymore. There are background checks, waiting periods etc. Cho managed his act with legally obtained firearms...a rarity actually.

At Columbine thos 2 had "illeagal" guns...if memory serves they were obtained by a third party & given to the loons. As far as I'm concerned that 3rd party was as guilty (if not more so) than the shooters themselves.

And to all, if you go back a couple of my posts you will find that I agree that our culture is different, I wasn't arguing that at all.

Prison overcrowding is also a measure of politics (if not exactly PC), people have a real problem with NIMBY in this country.

Also as to all of the stats, how does the number of "gun deaths" even stack up with "per capita" number of guns owned?

Remember too that many of those stats include accidental discharges, hunting accidents etc.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:43 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

FremD

You are one of the few people I KNOW I am comfortable with the idea of owning a gun. But in your argument to keep them accessible you have to account for the idiots and miscreants out there.

How would you weed them out?

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
How would you weed them out?

Well, basic background check would weed out a lot of them right there, and in truth does, although the process could use some refinement, specifically to the occasional bogus claims made by pissed off ex's as a retaliatory gesture against CCW holders.

(True, it's uncommon, but such allegations need to be questioned and substantiated quickly, and if found baseless, then expunged.)

Primarily however, I do believe we need a standard competency test, not for mere ownership, but for carry-right, which is something I dislike, but see the need for - for home defense, fine and dandy, but if you're going to carry on person, you really should know what the hell you're doing.

And I don't mean the pathetic one they give the police, many depts satisfy themselves with 8/10 at 10-15 meters, twice a year.

I mean something that covers firearm safety, basic gun handling and retention, proper reloading, fire/no-fire decisionmaking and proper maintainence in addition to mere accuracy.

There's a guy by the name of Ayoob, I think, who really knows his stuff, whom I would have if not design the test, at least get him to put his input on it.

And none of this come back tomorrow with the fee again if you flunk it, you flunk it, you wait a YEAR before you can take it again.

That would prolly sort most of it, in my opinion.

One reason I don't care for the idea of discarding them entire, beyond the fact that criminals will still get them somehow, is that a handgun really does level the field when it comes to self defense, in the hands of a competent user, be it a young vigorous 22 year old, or in the hands of a diabetic 80 year old lady, it's an equal defense against even a determined assailant.

Even so, it's not a magic wand, as the Tueller Drill clearly shows, but it's hands down the second most effective self defense weapon there is.

The first ?

That thing between your ears - use that well enough and you often won't *need* the second.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:08 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:
Comparing prisoners per 100,000 (1st number) to murders per 100,000 (2nd number)
United States 715, 43
Prisoners per 100,000 of nations that we know:
UK 43

Really? look at your own numbers.

The UK & US have the same incarceration rate.

Maybe you should look at the numbers again. The 43 for the UK is prisoners per 100,000, and US 43 is murders per 100,000. The comparable numbers are US:715, UK:43.

EDIT:
But I see that's been mentioned, never mind.

EDIT again:

Quote:
Exactly, explosives aren't leagal in this country either (without the proper permits) but as I posted earlier you can walk into a grocery store & get the chemicals nessecary to set off a pretty decent size blast.

Not entirely true. Most governments control/monitor the things that can be used to make explosives. Buy enough of any chemicals that can be used to make explosives and kindly Agent whatshisname will hear about it.

You know what is really easy to build, Nuclear weapons. Gun type fission devices could be built be an 8 year old, but you have to find the fissionable material first. Good luck

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:11 PM

By the way as long as we're blaming America first...here's another fact that many people don't like to hear about.

America has one of the highest number of terrorist groups within her borders throughout the world.

One of the "cost's of freedom" I guess. We're so focused on "Islamic Terrorism" that the others are conveniently forgotten about.

The IRA was metioned, at one time the US was one of the best sources of funding, the difference is that it wasn't the US government. The US citizen can do a lot of good, or not. The US citizen has always been good for funding "causes" all over the world.

Again a byproduct of the US stance on "personal freedom", there are costs, many rival groups object. I once attended a concert by the "Highland Blackwatch" & a fight broke out because of the number of IRA supporters outside protesting.
How would we classify that if there would have been a fatality?

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:35 PM

RojBlake - Swords are made to kill, sure, but they're not nearly as effective as guns.

Two incidents spring to mind - two crazy guys walking into schools in England and starting a random attack. The first guy had two guns and lots of ammo. He killed sixteen kids, a teacher and then himself.

The second guy had a machete. He injured a teacher, who successfully kept him from her kids until he was subdued.

Most of the guns out there aren't made for hunting or shooting paper targets. They're made to kill. Who hunts deer with a glock? If weapons like that are going to be available to the public then you have to have stricter controls to stop any yahoo from buying it. Clearly background checks and waiting periods - while a great help - aren't doing enough.

As for Cho's "manifesto" - it wasn't political. It was the demented ramblings of someone who had utterly lost his mind. Even the unabomber's manifesto, which was more political, would fit into this category in my view.

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:
Exactly, explosives aren't leagal in this country either (without the proper permits) but as I posted earlier you can walk into a grocery store & get the chemicals nessecary to set off a pretty decent size blast.
Not entirely true. Most governments control/monitor the things that can be used to make explosives. Buy enough of any chemicals that can be used to make explosives and kindly Agent whatshisname will hear about it.

How is kindly Agent whathisname? He hasn't been calling around to my house so much these days.

Quote:

You know what is really easy to build, Nuclear weapons. Gun type fission devices could be built be an 8 year old, but you have to find the fissionable material first. Good luck

http://www.unitednuclear.com

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:52 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Here's a warning sign for YOU:

Quote:

"The most stunning statistic, however, is that the total number of deaths caused by conventional medicine is an astounding 783,936 per year. Using Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate would add another 216,000 deaths, for a total of 999,936 deaths annually. It is now evident that the American medical system is the leading cause of death and injury in the US."
—Gary Null, PhD; Carolyn Dean MD, ND; Martin Feldman, MD; Debora Rasio, MD; Dorothy Smith, PhD, Life Extension Magazine, "Death by Medicine", March 2004
www.lef.org/magazine/mag2004/mar2004_awsi_death_01.htm

Plus 1.5-Million annual aborticides in USA.

A high percentage of these murders were perped by college students in University "teaching" hospitals.

So medical doctors use their license to kill to genocide over 2.5-million US citizens in death camps every year, with virtual immunity from prosecution by the homicidal republic.

In related news, Hollywood movie shows exactly how Uncle Scam frames innocent shooters, aided and abetted by the Media Mafia, via CIA covert operations.

Quote:

VIDEO TRAILER: "SHOOTER"
Starring Jewish stripper "Marky" Mark Wahlberg

www.infowars.com/articles/media/shooter_review_if_you_are_truther_see_
shooter.htm

Note that zero video evidence has been released proving Cho was the actual shooter who fired nearly 250 bullets with expert precision. No surveilance video exists proving Cho mailed the video confessions to NBC.

Just like 9/11, where zero video exists proving any Arab hijackers walked through any airports or boarded any airliners hijacked on 9/11. And half of the "official suicide hijackers" are still alive and giving interviews to BBC News. Many of the others died on US military bases during US Air Force flight training. Bin Laden, FBI, Pentagon, Bush and Cheney all agree on the public record that USAma Bin Laden had NOTHING to do with 9/11.
www.piratenews.org/911con.html

News photos appear to show 2 different Chos. Eyewitness reports testify that the actual shooter was 6-feet tall, but Cho was only 5-foot 8-inches tall. Koreans have roundish eyes, but Communist Chinese have more slanted eyes. Cho NEVER talked to roommates or teachers (but suspiciously did not flunk), yet the video rants were very well-spoken (where did he learn how to talk?).

Why does the Media Mafia claim Cho's family "ran a small dry cleaning business", but Cho and his Ivy League CIA-employed sister graduated from the 2nd wealthiest high school in USA? A high school which produced TWO mass-murdering shooters within 12 months...

As for Joss the Censored Whistleblower (govt's mind-controlled serial killers ie River), everyone here knows Firefly was killed by Fox. But Angel was also killed in sudden death. Coincidentally, Angle's final series-ending episode included Charles Gunn assassinating Senator Hillary Clinton's evil twin - the blonde "Hellspawn" - to snuff "the senator's presidential victory in 2008 and prevent her secret society's Apocalypse to destroy the world"... Starring, of course, the evil Adam "Jayne" Baldwin, in his famous death scene.
www.cityofangel.com/episodes/summaries/ep5_22.html

Quote:

ANGLE SCRIPT FINAL EPISODE OF THE APOCALYPSE
Episode 22, Season 5
Title: "Not Fade Away"
Written by: Jeffrey Bell & Joss Whedon
Original Air Date: May 19th, 2004

www.twiztv.com/scripts/angel/season5/angel-522.htm

To join this Black Thorn secret society, it's mandatory to "kill your own people".

Sir Rupert Murdock Jewish Australian Comminist Chinese Knight of the British Empire dines weekly with Senator Hillary Clinton Blythe Rockefeller to discuss her current presidential campaign in 2008.

"Reavers - They MADE them!"
-Wash, Serenity

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
https://video.indymedia.org/en/2007/02/716.shtml
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=8cd2bd0379340120e7a6ed00f2a53ee5
.1044556
www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv

DRIVE BY MIND CONTROL: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RojBlake:
By the way as long as we're blaming America first...

That phrase always make me chuckle.

So how did this turn into a US vs. Other Countries argument? And why does anyone give a rat's ass?

The one thing I've read here that makes total sense is the notion that Cho was a terrorist. That much I'm in total agreement with. And we should treat these schoolyard terrorists in exactly the same way that we should be treating the Islamic terrorists - in other words, not at all like we currently are.

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
As for Cho's "manifesto" - it wasn't political. It was the demented ramblings of someone who had utterly lost his mind.

Have to disagree there. It was absolutely political. Most of these school shootings are. That fact that he'd lost it doesn't change that fact.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:01 PM

Nope, SergeantX, I don't buy it. Okay, I didn't watch the whole video, but of what I saw he didn't even make any political statements. He just ranted about spoiled brats who had "brutilized" him in various ways.

I'm curious though. What makes you think his video was political? And forgive me if I don't reply - have to leave here in a minute.

EDIT: While we're on the subject of labels, how come Piratenews isn't tagged? As offensive, I mean. Not awesome. *Haken's so gonna kill me for that*

Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 1:08 PM