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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
So, how are you going to prove them wrong?

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Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
... almost all of the students that i host in my home from all over the world declare a dislike and even hatred of the USA. Most of them see you as war-mongering arogants who are out to bleed the world white.
So, how are you going to prove them wrong?

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
I think it comes from the belief that you can't victimise the big guy, kinda the same logic that says you can insult the WASP male when insulting anyone else makes you a racist/sexist. I think there is a general feeling taht it's OK to insult America just because they are the big kid on the block. Oh and there is a big side helping of envy in there too.

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Originally posted by rue:
So are Americans 'ugly' and hateful? You betcha - and by choice.

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Originally posted by Geezer:


And we apparently generalize a lot.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
I think Webb ignores some very real facts about America that make it very likely that we WILL be hated. The first is that we spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined. That, and our 800 military installations around the world make our military footprint large and very resented. In addition, our previous lock on international banking and the UN made it impossible for other people to be heard.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

The self-hatred appears to be another unique quality about America.

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Originally posted by rue:
What ??


SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?

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Originally posted by rue:
By your own example, I'd say so.

Not a snit fit or anything, I just thought your post was exquisitely ironic.

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Originally posted by rue:
By your own example, I'd say so.

Not a snit fit or anything, I just thought your post was exquisitely ironic.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by rue:
What ??


SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?

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That's what happens when someone is totally incapable of believing that they are anything but a perfect, shining example of what everyone else should be.

Reminds me of the parents who insist their kid is a perfect little angel, even after said little angel has rolled another kid for their lunch money.

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The self-hatred appears to be another unique quality about America

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Originally posted by SignyM:
My definition of America is about all the good things America represents, not our pervasive military presence and rank ignorance. So I'm allowed to criticize some of our bad qualities because I don't feel that's "us".

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Originally posted by Causal:
but there's no protest against, for instance, the Mahdi Army. I find that curious. Anybody care to comment?

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Causal:
but there's no protest against, for instance, the Mahdi Army. I find that curious. Anybody care to comment?

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That's simply that we protest the "actions taken in our name as Americans" thing IMO.
For instance, I wouldn't have protested about what Hitler was doing to Jews, I'd just join the army to help stop it. But I would protest us NOT taking action against him.
Maybe that's over-simplifying it too much; I don't know. But I do feel the trendy-ness of the anti-american (militaristic) thing in my international-like college town. When things become trendy, and little knowledge is there to back up a position that is generally acceptable, that's when the trouble starts....

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
4) What are the "good things"?
THE DESIRE FOR TRUTH AND JUSTICE; THE KINDNESS OF STRANGERS; THE PIONEER SPIRIT; THE MELTING POT OF DIVERSITY OUR COUNTRY GAINS STRENGTH FROM; APPLE PIE

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Originally posted by Causal:

Yeah...one of the guy in my class proudly sports a "Support the Iraqi Resistance" banner on his MySpace page.

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But just a couple of weeks ago, a car bomb exploded in a Baghdad market killing about that many. Where's the international outcry over that?

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Originally posted by Causal:


Don't forget comic books!

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Originally posted by Causal:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by rue:
What ??


SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?

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That's what happens when someone is totally incapable of believing that they are anything but a perfect, shining example of what everyone else should be.

Reminds me of the parents who insist their kid is a perfect little angel, even after said little angel has rolled another kid for their lunch money.

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Remember that rant about how we've divided ourselves into camps along political/ideological lines and how we don't even listen to each other any more? Yeah. That's what we're doing here.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
3) What do you mean by "rank ignorance"? Most Americans are extremely insular about other places and cultures. Looking at some of our recent discussions about guns, violent crime, mental illness, incarceration rates etc it becomes very clear that most Americans think that the whole world is pretty much like America except where it's worse.

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Originally posted by Storymark:
Maybe you are.... But I think, in this issue at least, that there is merit on both sides of the argument.

I don't think America is evil, or as bad as a lot make it out to be.

But we have problems, and to say that those who have a issues with America do so strictly out of bigotry is just burying one's head in the sand. We've earned at least some of the animosity toward us.

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Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you, and the author of the piece:

about the French (In their heart of hearts, many French people still believe that to be true.); about everyone not American (A pattern of willingness to condemn America for the tiniest indiscretion); about intellectuals, specifically of the French persuasion (The kind of anti-Americanism fostered by French intellectuals down the centuries revolves around intense dislike of what America is - not what it does.) and even about the US (The US represents, I suppose, a set of ideas about human conduct which makes approval or disapproval of its behaviour much more important to Americans).

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Originally posted by Causal:
That's a classic genetic fallacy,

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Originally posted by Causal:
one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing.

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Originally posted by Causal:
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html

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Originally posted by rue:
What ??


SignyM cites facts and you cite ---- self-hatred? Where's the connection?

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Originally posted by Geezer:

SignyM quotes factoids, which have no meaning in and of themselves, but are meant to lead one to believe that the US is all about military takeovers, manipulation of the world economy, and our complete control of the UN.

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Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you

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, and the author of the piece:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Not the US, the PNAC; please pay attention. Big business/old money, represented by particular administrations. (Shadow Government, if you go for those labels)

Laying it out Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by rue:
"I do like the conceit that you display in thinking you can describe all the 300 million people ..." As do you

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Not me. I note that the US has a "multitude of backgrounds and beliefs", which is about as far from your "...Americans, ugly and hateful..." as you can get.

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, and the author of the piece:

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Oh. He did it so you can too. He at least used qualifiers, "...many French people...", or singled out groups "intellectuals" within the population as a whole.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by Causal:
Not to get all overly philosophical on you, but it seems like the trouble is that one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing. The danger to that, of course, is that there will obviously always be people who don't fit the generalization. But if one doesn't engage in some degree of generalization, how can one ever talk about a large group?? It's a quandary.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by Causal:
Not to get all overly philosophical on you, but it seems like the trouble is that one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing. The danger to that, of course, is that there will obviously always be people who don't fit the generalization. But if one doesn't engage in some degree of generalization, how can one ever talk about a large group?? It's a quandary.

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I agree, but calling the entire population of a country "ugly and hateful" reaches beyond just discussion and into prejudice. If I were to say that all members of a certain ethnic group were "shiftless and lazy" I'd get criticized, and rightly so. "Ugly and hateful" or "shiftless and lazy" are not the comments you use, to quote Rue, "in the spirit of a debate". They're what you use in rants and hate speech.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Causal:
one can't accurately talk about a large group of people without some amount of generalizing.

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Irish peeps fight a lot, drink a lot of beer or ale, and like potatoes. The steroetype is true, and holds FOR ALL OF THEM MICKS!!!!

I should know.

Irish Chrisisall

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