The American Civil War by RiveR6213

In the interests of remaining civil (lol), I will just say that we are all entitled to our opinions and I in no way endorse anything you have to say on this matter.

I recommend you need to read up on the war somewhere where history wasn't altered like it was in our Social Studies books growing up.

Let me ask you this... I know it's "fantasy", but did you feel that the Alliance or the Independents were more justified in their actions on Firefly?

EDIT: For the record, I grew up and have lived my entire life in states which touch Lake Michigan. I have been brainwashed by the Union my entire life and I've come to these conclusions. Please save any ignorant hick remarks. Thanks!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 1, 2007 9:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA

It's not something you're ever gonna put in a soundbite or even message board post, but if you wanna understand WHY it happened, you need to read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers in the debate over the ratification of the US Constitution, because that is where the seeds of the conflict were planted, and then follow their growth all the way on to the spark that set it off.

Every revolt, every rebellion, in the US, has had the exact same spark that triggered the powder keg, from Shay's Rebellion and the Whiskey Rebellion all the way up to the first Civil War and to the future second one, it's been the same spark - in fact, the same one that lit the fuse of the American Revolution.

Taxes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_Abominations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Tariff

Not the whole cause, and only one of many, many factors in the Civil War... but that was the spark that lit the powder.

And mark my words - it'll be the spark again, just you watch.

-Frem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays_rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, June 1, 2007 10:20 PM

Thanks for the links Frem. I do think I have something to do for my last 3 hours of my work week now.

No such thing as too much knowledge from as many possible sources to alleviate tunnel vision and allow a much wider perspective.

From several things she put in her post, methinks the confused young lass is under the mistaken notion that the Civil War was about slavery. I can't laugh, much as I might want to. I grew up thinking that's what it was about too. What's a straight A student who believes everything he reads to do?

I'm such a naughty sheeple now, aren't I?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 1, 2007 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
In the interests of remaining civil (lol), I will just say that we are all entitled to our opinions and I in no way endorse anything you have to say on this matter.

I recommend you need to read up on the war somewhere where history wasn't altered like it was in our Social Studies books growing up.

Let me ask you this... I know it's "fantasy", but did you feel that the Alliance or the Independents were more justified in their actions on Firefly?

EDIT: For the record, I grew up and have lived my entire life in states which touch Lake Michigan. I have been brainwashed by the Union my entire life and I've come to these conclusions. Please save any ignorant hick remarks. Thanks!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

LoL,, ROFL!!!!

Total denial! Face it..the South got PWNed by the Alliance ...er I mean the Union. LoL!!!!!

-River

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Friday, June 1, 2007 11:34 PM

LOL.... no doubt. Can't argue that.

History is written by the winners.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, June 1, 2007 11:55 PM

Hey Frem....

I haven't read it all yet, but I have to say my favorite quote so far was by Henry Carey in his 1861 letter to Abraham Lincoln (A Repuglican for those who don't know), in regards to the importance of passing the Morrill Tariff.

Quote:
"There is but one way to make the Party a permanent one, & that is, by the prompt repudiation to the free trade system."

re·pu·di·a·tion
noun
1. rejecting or disowning or disclaiming as invalid; "Congressional repudiation of the treaty that the President had negotiated"
2. refusal to acknowledge or pay a debt or honor a contract (especially by public authorities); "the repudiation of the debt by the city"
3. the exposure of falseness or pretensions; "the debunking of religion has been too successful"

LOL... I'm sure that free trade has been stifled or even non existant since the beginning, not Bill O'Reilly the RIAA or any College Economics professor is going to change my mind on that, but for the most part it is free enough that it's a real hard sell to convince people who aren't starving that free trade is a fallacy, and most likely always was. I must admit that even I can't believe such a blatent attack on free trade was written on paper though, and even more interesting that a "great" (Repuglican) President, such as Lincoln, would support anything attacking free trade. What's even more interesting about it is the fact that Henry Carey is known as an "economist of the American School of capitalism" *giggles*

Wait a minute! WTF!!!?? I was always told that Capitalism and Free Trade (and Repuglicans) were inseperable. Or... I'm pretty sure I was told that at some point.... or I thought that was a generally held belief.... or... ummmmm.... maybe in a soundbyte?... uh.... my head hurts.... I'm going to pop some pills and go watch TV now.

Also of note: Karl Marx "supported the North and downplayed the tariff issue. He argued that the major cause of secession was slavery – and that the tariff was just a pretext." Then again, it would be counterproductive to his vision if his people were to belive that a country as great as America could ever implode due to the elimination of free trade. (I believe they would call this Motive if this were Law & Order)

Charles Dickens had this to say about the beginnings of the war: "With the election of Lincoln and an exclusive Northern party taking over the federal government, the time for withdrawal had arrived … The conflict is between semi-independent communities [in which] every feeling and interest [in the South] calls for political partition, and every pocket interest [in the North] calls for union … So the case stands, and under all the passion of the parties and the cries of battle lie the two chief moving causes of the struggle. Union means so many millions a year lost to the South; secession means the loss of the same millions to the North. The love of money is the root of this, as of many other evils.… And anybody who actually cracked open one of those large heavy rectangular objects in High School called English Textbooks and read a few chapters knows that "Great Expectations's" Pip was the literary equivalent of Weezer's rise to wealth and fame, yet despite their newfound social status's they both shared the same inability to get the girl. Truly a legend before its time. Charles Dickens, as any literary scholar will not hesitate to tell you, is the shit.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 1:15 AM

Now River.... I should be fair and admit that slavery, as slaves were considered by many on both sides of the battle to be little more than property and tools at the time, likely had something to do with the war. Largely though, the slavery aspect has been used as just another cog in the propoganda machine against not just the South or the Southerner, so much as a tool to kill any desires within any of us to rise against an ever more tyrannical and oppressive government. It's an inarguable argument. Nobody can defend slavery, and if you made the war a rightous battle to end slavery you've effectively eliminated any good intentions and ideals the Confederation had in the minds of the sheep. My biggest problem with how the Civil War is taught in schools is that slavery is all we're told about it. Of course you believe the motives of any Southerner is not "righteous" because it is impossible in the wake of a public school education, and documentary after documentary on the subject, which taught us that the Civil War was the North's epic and righteous battle against the tyrannical south to end the horrific practices of slavery.

All of the textbooks conveniently left out the truths such as, but not limited to:

1) People in the North owned slaves as well. There was no magical barrier that prevented people from the North from owning slaves.
2) The fact that there were black slave owners who themselves owned black slaves.
3) There were familys of white slaves who we know as "share croppers". The only difference between a share cropper and a slave is that the sharecroppers had the freedom to leave when they wanted to. Since they had neither a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of and many had lots of kids, they often chose to stay anyhow and work for room and board. A share cropper never had a chance to accumulate wealth and own property, thus they never had the right to vote or the hopes that someday they or their sons may ever have that right, even though they themselves were white. That's right! And we were lead to believe that it was only blacks and women who didn't get to vote.

I seriously have to go now. I'm wrapping up my shift at work. I'd like to discuss this further, and I enjoy talking about it and learning more about it. Thanks for bringing up the topic River and thank you Frem for the links. I didn't get to finish them today, but what I read was very informative. River... I implore you to read more into this, and from a variety of sources. I know you said you read this from all angles, but I can't possibly believe that you did with the attitudes you apparently have against the Southerner and the Confederacy.

It took a lot for some people to wrap their heads around the fact that Mal and crew are basically good guys. Not saints.... but good guys. That's why Firefly was so great. There was no Black and White.... just many varying shades of grey. Nobody is righteous... not one person. That only happens in Hollywood.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 4:14 AM

OMG!
I'm still drunk and I woke up on the floor!!! And this topic with with my name attached to it!!!!!??? er, sorry, but I don't remember starting this topic. It wasn't me, it was my evil twin or something...

-River I think

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 6:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So if it was evil to meddle in the way of the South (which was based on slavery, can't get around that fact) then it is evil to meddle in Iraq and the Sudan. Right?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
OMG!
I'm still drunk and I woke up on the floor!!! And this topic with with my name attached to it!!!!!??? er, sorry, but I don't remember starting this topic. It wasn't me, it was my evil twin or something...

-River I think

Heh, ok, I'm willing to let it slide. I have to admit I was a bit fuzzy on where you were going on this one. You'll have to see if you can link up a breath-a-lizer to your keyboard ;-)

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:51 AM

RAZZA

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
1) People in the North owned slaves as well. There was no magical barrier that prevented people from the North from owning slaves.

6ixStringJack:

Actually, there was a barrier, but not a magical one. By 1804, all the states north of Maryland had aboished slavery within their borders. What's more, these states also passed legislation which made it practically impossible for Southern slave owners from reclaiming their "property" should slaves manage to escape and actually make it to a northern "free" states.

As Frem said, there were many reasons for the Civil War, but I believe Slavery was either directly or indirectly involved with most of those reasons. Tariffs which protected Northern industry would have also protected Southern industry if there had been any to speak of. Instead, southern states chose to base their economies upon slavery. Had they not done so, the tariff legislation in question would have had no adverse effect on them. Only through the prism of slavery do these tariffs become an issue for Southern states.

I agree that Slavery was not the only reason for the War, but it cannot be disputed that it played a major role in bringing it about.

-----------------
"There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration."
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Saturday, June 2, 2007 9:38 AM

CAVALIER

The Confederacy claimed to be fighting for the freedom of its citizens.

Slaves were not its citizens, so there was no reason for it to care about them.

People who care about their own freedom do not necessarily care about that of anyone else.

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 10:20 AM

DEEPGIRL187

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
OMG!
I'm still drunk and I woke up on the floor!!! And this topic with with my name attached to it!!!!!??? er, sorry, but I don't remember starting this topic. It wasn't me, it was my evil twin or something...

-River I think

I've heard of drunk dialing, so I guess this is drunk posting. We forgive you. Just remember to keep all hands away from the keyboard next time.

*************************************************

"If you want to win a war, you must serve no master but your ambition."

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 7:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So if it was evil to meddle in the way of the South (which was based on slavery, can't get around that fact) then it is evil to meddle in Iraq and the Sudan. Right?

I've never discounted slavery completely, but at the same time I'll just say that we have a whole lot of appliances to do our work now and supermarkets where we buy the food that was harvested or slaughtered for us and many American's, though they bitch about all of the free healthcare and welfare for Mexicans (or Illegals) here, they would have a huge problem with paying more for goods if they were paying for wages for the labor of American citizens. (I'm one of these people, but the reality is we're going to pay either way... the US dollar doesn't buy what it used to). I don't believe most Southerners, even the ones who hang banners that say "We Will Rise Again", would even want slavery. Nobody in America has owned slaves for a long time, and to say you wanted a slave would be your undoing so I wouldn't see the point. I'm not saying that the end of slavery was a bad thing at all, but I don't believe the war was based on slavery. It played a role, but it was a prop. It was just a buzzword or a talking point.

Personally, I think the only positive thing to come about the Union win was the end of slavery.

In the end, we lost a lot more.....

Our Constitution tells us it was illegal for our Government to impose an income tax, but just like anything else they impose, they started out small and now they take an average of at least 25percent of our collective income on a yearly basis, and although it fluctuates whether we have a Repug or Demon in office, it is always going up in the end. I mean... look at us now. If you work in a big city like New York or Chicago you have your picture taken 100 times a day. This may make proles feel safe, but it scares the shit out of me. Call me old fashioned......

The Southern Confederacy would not have stood for this.

..................

Anyways... to answer your question SignyM, you're f--ing right we don't belong over there. I've said that from the beginning. I believe I have multiple posts all over the boards saying that. I'm not exactly proud of the state of our nation and I really don't blame them for not wanting their grandkids to be addicted to video games, MTV, Afghani Idol and internet porn. I'm not saying they have a good life now... I'm just wondering who the hell we think we are to impose our ways over them, especially knowing that in doing so we're lineing the pockets of souless CEOs with gold. Frack them.

EDIT: Razza... I realize there were laws saying that people couldn't own slaves, particularly in the Northern states. Today we have laws too. They say that an employer is not allowed to hire employess, whether illegal or not, that are paid under the table. At the same time, we have criminal politicians telling us on the news networks that a good portion of our economy is based on the work that these illegals do.

This is pure confusion. This blatent manipulation of laws to suit a purpose makes me feel the same way I feel when somebody bastardizes the Bible to prove their point. People who are distracted or live with eyes wide shut buy into thier shit. I'm not a meat puppet for them anymore. People owned slaves on the North and the South prior to the war regardless of the law. Were people busted for it? Sure.... but how many people get busted today for illegal file sharing or underage internet porn, yet both of those "industries" still thrive. What about the "War" on drugs? Will that ever end? Does the Architect even want it to?

River - LOL... you're awesome.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 7:32 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

I believe you will find that the Republican party in 1860 was progressive and liberal and was originally created to stop the expansion of slavery. It was not the conservative pro-capitalism party we have today.

Therefore one can not consider Lincoln a Republican by today's standards.

---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Saturday, June 2, 2007 7:42 PM

I kinda see what you're getting at FMF... but then again, I think Bush will go down as the worst president in history and be known as a tyrant worldwide for a melinnia.......

I know you know that already....

It's high time for a third party. (or a fourth... or a fifth....)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 3:12 AM

Jack - " though they bitch about all of the free healthcare and welfare for Mexicans (or Illegals) here, they would have a huge problem with paying more for goods if they were paying for wages for the labor of American citizens. (I'm one of these people, but the reality is we're going to pay either way... the US dollar doesn't buy what it used to)."

And that's the kicker... you pay for it one way or the other. Instead of paying more for goods; we pay more for taxes. And if taxes don't meet the outlay, we print money; which as you point out depresses the value of the dollar further, which can be called an 'invisible tax'.

IMHO, either we need 'em, and need to figure out how to make it 'above board' so folks understand the real cost of things; or we don't, and figure out a way to secure our borders.

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 4:02 AM

I agree with everything you said Leadb. I was just using the immigration issue, and also the illegal file sharing issue, as examples of how we break the law now, just like people would have broken the law back then. I would imagine that it was even more prevalent back then seeing as how there was a limited "police" force, limited technology, no IRS, and no income tax before the war. Basically, the FEDs would have had to come to your door to find out if you owned slaves without tax records, or the internet. Hell... did they even have phones yet? I can't remember....

Bottom line is we have the ability to secure our borders. We've done it before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback I mean... look at the name of the operation. We're too PC today to even say it, let alone go through with it. Personally it's all a little too Orwellian to me in itself, but I would prefer that they do it now to illegals than to wake up one day with a National ID card knowing that the "Orwell" is being directed my way too.

We're letting, practically encouraging, them to come over here now illegally. I think this is largely to do with the fact that the illegal worker situation is a great selling point for the national ID.... but I won't get into that here.

To get back to the main point, it sounds great in the textbooks that the Northern states abolished slavery and made it illegal when you're trying to make the Civil War come off as if it was a North vs South / Freedom vs. Slavery cause, but in reality, I don't believe that the new laws would have done much, if anything, to actually curb slavery among those in the North that owned them until they actually got busted or a couple of people they knew got busted and the word of mouth spread that Uncle Sam was kicking ass on this in their area, and punishing the lawbreakers heavily.

My "magical border" comment earlier wasn't refering to laws in the states. It was refering to human beings and the things we will do and say to justify things that are wrong or things we do that are illegal. Granted, with the south being mostly plantations, there was more of a "need" for slaves, but there were plenty of people who "needed" slaves in the North as well before the war. Of course there was no excuse for slavery and these people could have gotten by without them, but slaves were entrenched in their everyday way of life. It was simply standard operating procedure. Imagine today if riding lawnmowers were outlawed across the board because of some sort of "pollution issue". Even if the owners of the landscaping businesses were aware that their equipment was burning a hole right in the atmosphere over their heads, they more than likely would not be willing to suffer such a loss as having to scrap their fleet of riding lawnmowers because it would put them out of business. This would ruin their livelyhood or at least make the next few years or so miserable for the owners, regardless of their Geographical location.

I think it's very similar to our "global outsourcing" issues today, but in an inverse relationship. Today, an employer who is patriotic to America and refuses to outsource to India is going to go out of busniess if all of their competition starts outsourcing. There is no way the patriot could compete when it came to prices offered to the customer... and sadly, most of us will take a cheaper product over patriotism so this guy isn't going to stay in business too long. In terms of slavery, even among the North, if you were to get rid of your slaves right away when the laws came down and your competition did not, you would be paying for what your competition was not paying for. That's just bad business.

Even in the context of the Morrill tariff the article Frem posts states "Similarly, only one secessionist southern state congressman voted in favor of the tariff, along with 6 southern border state congressmen. In total, 87% of the northern congressmen supported the bill and 87.5% of southern congressmen opposed it." These states on either side were not in 100% agreement, and without seeing any numbers, I would imagine the totals to be pretty much in that ball park if there was an actual vote among the people or the representatives regarding the abolishment of slavery among the North and South. This is what was meant by "there is no magical border".

Look how entrenced we are today in an unwinnable and pointless war. (at least the meaning or the winning strategy has never been explained sufficiently in my eyes). I would think that many of us several months after September 11th, 2001 were watching Bush's speach and wanting retribution. I admit that I fall in that category. That opened the door for our current situation and then they lied about nuclear or biological weapons in Iraq so we went in an conqured Saddam (who I believe we let thrive last time just so we could go in and kick his ass now and have a large landing strip and home base in the Middle East to stage our "War on Terror".

Didn't anybody else say to themselves "this all seems a little too perfect" when they read about the Civil War in class as a kid? When they wrapped up that collosal ordeal with probably a million little things over the years that triggered it and gave us the Cliff's Notes version where only slavery was the issue that started it. I don't mean the deaths and the war itself was perfect, just the origins of the war that were so clear cut that they were a "Black and White" issue all in themselves.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:52 AM

Right, I got distracted by the costs comment.

I'll be honest, I really can't remember how the civil war was presented in grades 1-12. I only know that I've known for a good long time that fundamentally the war was not initiated over slavery per se, only later during the war did it become such a lynch pin of public opinion/perception of the war.

Might have to go stick my nose in and see what the current crop of books say.

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 6:13 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Right, I got distracted by the costs comment.

Might have to go stick my nose in and see what the current crop of books say.

A lovely book for anyone interested : " Don't Know Much ABout ... The Civil War". Inspired by the rock and roll oldie of similar title, it's fairly short, available in paperback or at your library. Covers a lot of ground in a straight forward fashion.

BTW, the Civil War did not JUST HAPPPEN in 1860-- the conflict is there all thru the westward expansion. The Missouri Compromise and the Compromise of 1850 were contributing factors.

Another worthwhile book: Decision at Philadelphia. About the Constitutional Convention. The Constitution itself was a masterful compromise between large states and small, rich and poor, urban vs rural and , yes, free vs slave.

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 6:33 AM

Thanks for the references; but specifically, I meant the current crop of school history 'text' books. Never hurts to be a bit active in the local school boards. ... Though one might also influence what is in the school libraries, and as such the above sound like good additions.

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 4:08 PM

Wow! Is this thread STILL going on? It wasn't even a real thread, but I STILL don't remember starting this thing. Oh, well... I guess I'm gonna end up with a name tag and be sitting in one of those smoked filled AA rooms like they show on television. I can see it now in my future..."Hi, I'm River6213 and I'm an alcoholic..." Jeezus! I hope that doesn't come true.

Anyway. The Civil War Happened and the South got slapped down, and the slaves were freed. Then of course those very slaves were terrorized for years right up to the mid 1950s, and then snubbed from the 60s to this present day if I am reading my past and current history correctly. And also to this day we screw with them in little ways, and when they scream racism, or "you're being an assholeism" we act all innocent, and tell them that they are being overly sensitive or paranoid. I wonder what Our story really is?

*Red Hot Rant-Mode Engaged*

Are you aware that more than half of the main problems of the United States we brought on ourselves? We whine about the feminists out there, but if men had treated us women right we would never have thought about Women's rights. We cry, and whine about Affirmative Action, and quotas, but if we had treated the other races fairly from the start this would have never been an issues. We moan and groan about immigration and illegal immigration, but if we had, had more control over that in the past it wouldn't even be an issue now. I could go on with this line of thinking, but I'll spare us all.

We create our own problems and then we have the nerve to bitch about them.

*Rant-Mode Disengaged*

I just spilled my coffee in my lap!

-River

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 4:27 PM

Sorry about the coffee. I hope it at least had the chance to grow cold.

Oh yes, we have certainly brought many of our problems to ourselves; you will get no quibble from me on that one.

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Sorry about the coffee. I hope it at least had the chance to grow cold.

Oh yes, we have certainly brought many of our problems to ourselves; you will get no quibble from me on that one.

Well for such an enlightened race we seem to be taking our dear sweet time seeing the light...

My new pants are ruined!!!!!

-River

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:26 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I kinda see what you're getting at FMF... but then again, I think Bush will go down as the worst president in history and be known as a tyrant worldwide for a melinnia.......

I know you know that already....

It's high time for a third party. (or a fourth... or a fifth....)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

I disagree. Bush, no matter how terrible a president he is, will be forgotten. He will be overshadowed by the failure of his successor(s) to handle the impossible situation that Bush created. It's a cruel irony of a sort. Bush has created a situation in which the next president(s) are doomed to failure when they try to fix it, and so, people will largely forget (or at least ignore) Bush in the coming years snd lay all the blame on the next guy/gal who manages to be elected (cause, at this point, its going to get a helluva lot worse before it gets better).

I am amazed that anyone wants to be the next president right now.

[img]

[/img]

"I refuse to submit,
To the god you say is kind.
I know what's right, and it is time,
It's time to fight, and free our minds!

Our spirits were forged in snow and ice,
To bend like steel forged over fire.
We were not made to bend like reed,
Or to turn the other cheek!"

- from the song "Thousand Years of Opression" by Amon Amarth

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:32 PM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Are you aware that more than half of the main problems of the United States we brought on ourselves? We whine about the feminists out there, but if men had treated us women right we would never have thought about Women's rights. We cry, and whine about Affirmative Action, and quotas, but if we had treated the other races fairly from the start this would have never been an issues. We moan and groan about immigration and illegal immigration, but if we had, had more control over that in the past it wouldn't even be an issue now. I could go on with this line of thinking, but I'll spare us all.

We create our own problems and then we have the nerve to bitch about them.

I blame the Puritans. But then again, I blame Christians for a lot of things, so that's probably just me.

[img]

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So if it was evil to meddle in the way of the South (which was based on slavery, can't get around that fact) then it is evil to meddle in Iraq and the Sudan. Right?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

Because it was our war at home. Because it happened during a time when no other nation could see the so-called lesser races as actual humans. If we had CNN back in the 1800 history would, or might have been different, but also back then people saw the value of dark-skinned people as being less than.

Back in the so-called day a Black person was not seen as a human, they were seen as animals. Think about that for a moment. Why do Blacks in America dominate most physical sports? This is a product of breeding. We bred them like dogs to get a certain type of super-slave. I love it. We point our fingers at the rest of the world and say that they are bad because of human rights violations, when all we have to do is look back less than a 100 years and find that we are guilty of all kinds of human badness, and don't get me started with the indigenous populations of North America. What we did with them is right up there with the holocaust that happened during Nazi Germania's time in the sun.

It's amazing how history is viewed by the common person. We take what we want and discard the rest. The best part about all of of this is what I am saying cannot be defended. I have to thank all the people in history who took the time to document all of our bad doings and shameful acts. We were very busy bees in the past, and right now in this current history we whine like little bitches because we are not living in what we thought would be a paradise.

Thank the Gods we only have a life span of less than a hundreds years.

-River

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 5:59 PM

Double fraking post.

I guess I did have the gromba to take on a topic like this. Human history isn't fun nor is it nice. We would all like to think that there is no blood on anyone's hands but their is. The fact that you and I can get up in the morning, go and use the bathroom and take a shower, and breakfast...you must realize that MOST of the world can't do this. You do understand what I mean don't you?

I think we are all spoiled, and are really missing out on the whole human experience thing, which is not very fun at all when it gets right down to it.

-River

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Sunday, June 3, 2007 9:40 PM

You sound depressed River. Alcohol is a depressant. Maybe you should do something about your alcohol problem now before it starts to get really bad. The years will go by and you'll find that the problem only gets worse if you don't do something about it. Trust me....

Part of me thinks this is why you're posting the way you do. I certainly don't feel guilty for any of those things you speak about, and I'm kind of offended at the way you're going about saying them too. I'm currently in the thread about how Joss wrote a long blog post about a woman being lynched in a 3rd world shithole, and I've been trying to destory the notion that this is something that men in general should feel guilty for. You can only control your own actions, not anybody eleses, and you certainly can't go back in time and change anything. Don't let what others have done, even if they share "demographic" characteristics with you, make you feel guilty if you know that you're doing right.

That kind of thinking is what they want. They want hetrosexual white male Americans to hate themselves. Watch too much TV or read too many social studies books and you will believe it. Don't buy that bullshit. You sound like you've got a good heart. Follow that and you've got nothing to feel ashamed or guilty about.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, June 4, 2007 3:44 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The fact that you and I can get up in the morning, go and use the bathroom and take a shower, and breakfast...you must realize that MOST of the world can't do this. You do understand what I mean don't you?

Sure they can. You take folk from anywhere and bring them here and next thing you know, they're showering and eating breakfast. The problem is not America, its the rest of the world were folk just like you and me are denied showers by the lack of opportunity and development that comes with the lack of liberty.

We built our showers and egg McMuffins in just over two-hundred years. They've been at it a lot longer and can't seem to put it together. Take France, for example, they perfected breakfast pastry technology, but have yet to master the morning shower after thousands of years of political and cultural development.

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Monday, June 4, 2007 5:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You sound depressed River. Alcohol is a depressant. Maybe you should do something about your alcohol problem now before it starts to get really bad. The years will go by and you'll find that the problem only gets worse if you don't do something about it. Trust me....

Part of me thinks this is why you're posting the way you do. I certainly don't feel guilty for any of those things you speak about, and I'm kind of offended at the way you're going about saying them too. I'm currently in the thread about how Joss wrote a long blog post about a woman being lynched in a 3rd world shithole, and I've been trying to destory the notion that this is something that men in general should feel guilty for. You can only control your own actions, not anybody eleses, and you certainly can't go back in time and change anything. Don't let what others have done, even if they share "demographic" characteristics with you, make you feel guilty if you know that you're doing right.

That kind of thinking is what they want. They want hetrosexual white male Americans to hate themselves. Watch too much TV or read too many social studies books and you will believe it. Don't buy that bullshit. You sound like you've got a good heart. Follow that and you've got nothing to feel ashamed or guilty about.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

*sigh*

I'm not drinking bozo.

-River

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Monday, June 4, 2007 5:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The fact that you and I can get up in the morning, go and use the bathroom and take a shower, and breakfast...you must realize that MOST of the world can't do this. You do understand what I mean don't you?

Sure they can. You take folk from anywhere and bring them here and next thing you know, they're showering and eating breakfast. The problem is not America, its the rest of the world were folk just like you and me are denied showers by the lack of opportunity and development that comes with the lack of liberty.

We built our showers and egg McMuffins in just over two-hundred years. They've been at it a lot longer and can't seem to put it together. Take France, for example, they perfected breakfast pastry technology, but have yet to master the morning shower after thousands of years of political and cultural development.

*laughter*

-River

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Monday, June 4, 2007 6:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
*sigh*

I'm not drinking bozo.

-River

My bad... that's great to hear. I must have been confused after the references to waking up on the floor still drunk, and smokey AA rooms.

You take care of yourself.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, June 4, 2007 7:28 AM

REAVERMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So if it was evil to meddle in the way of the South (which was based on slavery, can't get around that fact) then it is evil to meddle in Iraq and the Sudan. Right?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

In a way, I suppose it was evil. If you consider doing more harm than good evil, that is.

What most people fail to realize is that slavery was a dying practice at the time of the Civil War. Almost all western nations had abolished it. If the U.S. had let the Confederacy go (as most people in the north wanted to do at the time), within twenty to thirty years, the Cofederates would have abolished it on their own.

If that had happened, there would be no KKK. The bitter resentment of being forced to conform that lingers in the South to this day because of the war would not exist. Thousands of blacks would not have been lynched. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers wouldn't have died. Many of the social problems dealing with racism and poverty in the south wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the way Lincoln handled the situation.

So, in the long run, I believe that fighting the war was evil.

[img]

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Tuesday, June 5, 2007 8:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You sound depressed River. Alcohol is a depressant. Maybe you should do something about your alcohol problem now before it starts to get really bad. The years will go by and you'll find that the problem only gets worse if you don't do something about it. Trust me....

Part of me thinks this is why you're posting the way you do. I certainly don't feel guilty for any of those things you speak about, and I'm kind of offended at the way you're going about saying them too. I'm currently in the thread about how Joss wrote a long blog post about a woman being lynched in a 3rd world shithole, and I've been trying to destory the notion that this is something that men in general should feel guilty for. You can only control your own actions, not anybody eleses, and you certainly can't go back in time and change anything. Don't let what others have done, even if they share "demographic" characteristics with you, make you feel guilty if you know that you're doing right.

That kind of thinking is what they want. They want hetrosexual white male Americans to hate themselves. Watch too much TV or read too many social studies books and you will believe it. Don't buy that bullshit. You sound like you've got a good heart. Follow that and you've got nothing to feel ashamed or guilty about.

Nice try but I am not a victim of White guilt if that is what you are talking about, and as far as my drinking goes I'm not drinking, and I realize that alcohol is a depressant, but I don't feel particulary depressed at this point, also, I actually don't see my drinking as a major problem except for the fact that I woke up on the floor the other day,which was a bit disturbing, but on the whole I'm fine with drinking and I plan to drink until the day I die.

Anyhow. No, I don't suffer from white guilt. I'm not a liberal who looks for problems to call my own. I just notice things in this society and speak my mind about them. The historical facts present and past are that we did the dark and brown skinned people wrong plain and simple and you can argue about it, but history was very good at documenting all of our ancestors activities, so none of you can argue it away, or stray from the topic by calling me a drunk or saying I must have PMS or the usual, male conversation distracts when they don't want people to take a particular subject or topic seriously.

Thanks for saying I have a good heart because when I'm not thinking about sterilizing the whole male population or nuking the planet I do have my good moments, and I can be kind and thoughtful person.

White Guilt? No, not my cup of tea.

-River

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 8:31 AM

BROWNCOATSANDINISTA

White guilt just furthers inequality, because as an attempt to "rectify" past wrongs innocent people are themselves wronged. I'm a white, middle class, youthful American Male, and this will in effect count against me due to institutionalized affirmative action. I understand that in the past, slave owners who were also predominantly white males discriminated against people of different skin colour and/or ethnic background, but I can say with all certainty that these were not my ancestors, as we were poor Irish people who came over in 1920, and middle class Scottish people who came over in the 1960s. Therefore, punishing me for the actions of my presupposed ancestors is really just discriminating against me. Affirmative Action, for all of the good it does, is not an equitable system, it just gives the impression of one. As to the American Civil War, The South fought for reasons beyond slavery - they wanted greater powers to the states, a confederacy, whereas the North fought for federalism, slavery being the other main issue. Not all Confederates were slave owners or anti-abolishonists ((Sp)) just as not all Unionists were abolishonists ((Sp)).

Edit: Stating that River has an alcohol problem, even if that were true, is bad taste. We shouldn't have to resort to personal attacks to prove our point.

"I'm not going to say Serenity is the greatest SciFi movie ever; oh wait yes I am." - Orson Scott Card

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 9:32 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by BrowncoatSandinista:
but I can say with all certainty that these were not my ancestors, as we were poor Irish people who came over in 1920, and middle class Scottish people who came over in the 1960s. Therefore, punishing me for the actions of my presupposed ancestors is really just discriminating against me.

And a fair number of us poor, guilty whites had ancestors here, fighting for the Union and to end slavery. You should not lump us in with the fellas fightin fer Jeff Davis.

Quote:

Not all Confederates were slave owners or anti-abolishonists ((Sp)) just as not all Unionists were abolishonists ((Sp)).

Hmm...like Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee, both men morally opposed to slavery. Heck, Jackson was a puritan just like half the Union army.

Quote:

Edit: Stating that River has an alcohol problem, even if that were true, is bad taste. We shouldn't have to resort to personal attacks to prove our point.

I agree. River's inability to control herself, her lack of common sense or the ability to reason, not to mention her blatent racism when "in her cups" should not be commented on.

H

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Thursday, June 7, 2007 9:34 AM