REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Iraq: A War We Just Might Win

POSTED BY: SKYWALKEN
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:39
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2530
PAGE 1 of 1

Monday, July 30, 2007 1:12 PM

SKYWALKEN


Yes, the Iraq War is a "war we just might win" according to an op-ed in the ultra-reactionary right-wing rag...the New York Times. Michael O'Hanlon and Kenneth M. Pollack, members of the left-wing Brookings Institution proclaimed that "we are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, "morale is high," and, as a result, this is "a war we just might win."

Here it is:

Viewed from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration's critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily "victory" but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated — many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done.

In Ramadi, for example, we talked with an outstanding Marine captain whose company was living in harmony in a complex with a (largely Sunni) Iraqi police company and a (largely Shiite) Iraqi Army unit. He and his men had built an Arab-style living room, where he met with the local Sunni sheiks — all formerly allies of Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups — who were now competing to secure his friendship.

In Baghdad's Ghazaliya neighborhood, which has seen some of the worst sectarian combat, we walked a street slowly coming back to life with stores and shoppers. The Sunni residents were unhappy with the nearby police checkpoint, where Shiite officers reportedly abused them, but they seemed genuinely happy with the American soldiers and a mostly Kurdish Iraqi Army company patrolling the street. The local Sunni militia even had agreed to confine itself to its compound once the Americans and Iraqi units arrived.

We traveled to the northern cities of Tal Afar and Mosul. This is an ethnically rich area, with large numbers of Sunni Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens. American troop levels in both cities now number only in the hundreds because the Iraqis have stepped up to the plate. Reliable police officers man the checkpoints in the cities, while Iraqi Army troops cover the countryside. A local mayor told us his greatest fear was an overly rapid American departure from Iraq. All across the country, the dependability of Iraqi security forces over the long term remains a major question mark.

But for now, things look much better than before. American advisers told us that many of the corrupt and sectarian Iraqi commanders who once infested the force have been removed. The American high command assesses that more than three-quarters of the Iraqi Army battalion commanders in Baghdad are now reliable partners (at least for as long as American forces remain in Iraq).

In addition, far more Iraqi units are well integrated in terms of ethnicity and religion. The Iraqi Army's highly effective Third Infantry Division started out as overwhelmingly Kurdish in 2005. Today, it is 45 percent Shiite, 28 percent Kurdish, and 27 percent Sunni Arab.

In the past, few Iraqi units could do more than provide a few "jundis" (soldiers) to put a thin Iraqi face on largely American operations. Today, in only a few sectors did we find American commanders complaining that their Iraqi formations were useless — something that was the rule, not the exception, on a previous trip to Iraq in late 2005.

The additional American military formations brought in as part of the surge, General Petraeus's determination to hold areas until they are truly secure before redeploying units, and the increasing competence of the Iraqis has had another critical effect: no more whack-a-mole, with insurgents popping back up after the Americans leave.

In war, sometimes it's important to pick the right adversary, and in Iraq we seem to have done so. A major factor in the sudden change in American fortunes has been the outpouring of popular animus against Al Qaeda and other Salafist groups, as well as (to a lesser extent) against Moktada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army.

These groups have tried to impose Shariah law, brutalized average Iraqis to keep them in line, killed important local leaders and seized young women to marry off to their loyalists. The result has been that in the last six months Iraqis have begun to turn on the extremists and turn to the Americans for security and help. The most important and best-known example of this is in Anbar Province, which in less than six months has gone from the worst part of Iraq to the best (outside the Kurdish areas). Today the Sunni sheiks there are close to crippling Al Qaeda and its Salafist allies. Just a few months ago, American marines were fighting for every yard of Ramadi; last week we strolled down its streets without body armor.

Another surprise was how well the coalition's new Embedded Provincial Reconstruction Teams are working. Wherever we found a fully staffed team, we also found local Iraqi leaders and businessmen cooperating with it to revive the local economy and build new political structures. Although much more needs to be done to create jobs, a new emphasis on microloans and small-scale projects was having some success where the previous aid programs often built white elephants.

In some places where we have failed to provide the civilian manpower to fill out the reconstruction teams, the surge has still allowed the military to fashion its own advisory groups from battalion, brigade and division staffs. We talked to dozens of military officers who before the war had known little about governance or business but were now ably immersing themselves in projects to provide the average Iraqi with a decent life.

Outside Baghdad, one of the biggest factors in the progress so far has been the efforts to decentralize power to the provinces and local governments. But more must be done. For example, the Iraqi National Police, which are controlled by the Interior Ministry, remain mostly a disaster. In response, many towns and neighborhoods are standing up local police forces, which generally prove more effective, less corrupt and less sectarian. The coalition has to force the warlords in Baghdad to allow the creation of neutral security forces beyond their control.

In the end, the situation in Iraq remains grave. In particular, we still face huge hurdles on the political front. Iraqi politicians of all stripes continue to dawdle and maneuver for position against one another when major steps towards reconciliation — or at least accommodation — are needed. This cannot continue indefinitely. Otherwise, once we begin to downsize, important communities may not feel committed to the status quo, and Iraqi security forces may splinter along ethnic and religious lines.

How much longer should American troops keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part? And how much longer can we wear down our forces in this mission? These haunting questions underscore the reality that the surge cannot go on forever. But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html?_r=2&oref=slo
gin&pagewanted=print

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 1:15 PM

PENGUIN


*waits for hell to freeze over*



King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 1:18 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Make of it what you want, but the victory over Saudi Arabia by Iraq to win the Asian Championships couldn't have come at a better time. ( Remember the torture that Saddam's son, I forget which, inflicted onto the Iraq team when it performed poorly ? ) A Sunni assist and a goal made by a Kurd.... at least for a moment, Iraqis can stand together and share in something positive. Might not mean much, or it could help foster in better days to come. Much like the U.S.A defeating the Soviets in the '80 Olympics...?

Time will tell.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 1:19 PM

FREDGIBLET


Bah! Right-wing propaganda!

Seriously though, good news and I hope to hear more of it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 2:24 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



100,000 dead US Gulf War soldiers in 17-year war
600,000 disabled US Gulf War soldiers so far
400,000 Nagasaki DU nuke bombs dropped on Iraq since 1990
300% increase in price of oil
$3.5-Trillion missing from Pentagon
Pentagon borrowed $2.5-trillion from Communist China
Usama Bin Laden not indicted or arrested for 9/11
Bush & Cheney ordered NORAD to stand down on 9/11/2001
Bush signed www.SPP.gov to overthrow USA & merge with Canada & Mexico
WE WIN

Quote:
"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissinger Jewish Knight of the British Empire, Communist Russian spy, George Bush Jr's first nomination for director of the 9/11 Commission, quoted by Monika Jensen-Stevenson, Kiss the Boys Goodbye, Dutton, 1990, Page 97, citing The Final Days, Woodward and Bernstein (Simon & Schuster, 1976)

"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissinger Jewish Knight of the British Empire

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissinger Jewish Knight of the British Empire, 1991 Bilderberger conference held in Evians, France

"Look for $150 a barrel oil. It should not be long.”
-Sir Heinz "Henry" Kissinger Jewish Knight of the British Empire, 2005 Bilderberg Conference, 5-8th May, Rottach-Egern, Munich, Germany



MSNBC TV: Bush ordered the assassination of Pat Tillman


www.infowars.com/articles/ps/tillman_bush_needs_to_resolve_whether_til
lman_was_killed_for_political_views.htm









"Two words I never want to hear again in a sentence are Flash and Drive!"
-Nathan Fillion, Drive

DRIVE VS POLICE STATE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
OOPS! CANCELLED!!! FINAL EPPS ON JULY 4 8PM EST
WTF?! FINAL EPPS FRIDAY 13 JULY 8PM EST!!! FOX SUX!
NOW FOX KILLED FINAL EPPS - ONLINE ONLY!!!
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation


www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 2:34 PM

PIRATECAT


Will be there as long as it takes. Terrorism is what they export.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 2:52 PM

PIRATEJENNY


A war we might win, my question is win what? what is it that they are trying to win;in order to win something you've got to know what your fighting for, and so far that story has changed several times over the years.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 3:05 PM

MALBADINLATIN


Pollack and O'Hanlon are Brookings Institution writers. Have you been to the web site www.brook.edu
Anyway...the climate change section of that site spends most of it's time praising Arnold Schwartzenegger...but hey....Arnold is the "greenest" republican alive.

I tried my best to find evidence that they are a Republican think tank that will write you an objective opinion of your choosing while being funded completely by Satan. And I didn't find that. Nor did I find any liberal slants either, nice try Walken

But...these are not staff writers for the NY Times and this piece should in NO way make anyone think that the "liberal media conspiracy" is changing thier tune about the war. This is all stuff the pro war crowd loves to hear and aids them in thier preparations for the inevitable ceremonial dumping of the war into Hillary's lap. If the war ends before Hillary takes office, Hillary will go 8 years, that's what pro war repugs want the least

If you're not on Malbadinlatin's side, you're with the terrorists.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 3:08 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


The War On Terror will last 100 years, according to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Chertoff. AllCIAduh is now a World Power. Which deserves a rep in the United Nations Corporation.

Quote:
"By God, we've kicked the Vietnam syndrome once and for all!"
-Sir George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire, 1991 at "end" of Iraq War #1

"We will stay the course. We will complete the job in Iraq."
-George DWI Bush Jr, convicted draft deserter, www.AWOLbush.com, October 2006

"It’s never been a 'stay-the-course' strategy. Strategically, we think it’s very important that we stay in Iraq and we win in Iraq. And if we were to cut and run and go and leave that country too early it would be a disaster for American policy."
-Dan Bartlett, Jr Bush White House advisor, CBS News, October 2006, video:
www.thinkprogress.org/2006/10/23/bartlett-stay-the-course/

"The notion that we ought to now go to Baghdad, and uh, somehow take control of the country strikes me as, as, and extremely, uh, serious one, in terms of what we'd have to do when we got there. You'd probably have to put some new government in place. It's not clear what kind of government that would be --how long you'd have to stay. For the U.S. to get involved militarily, in determining the outcome of, uh, the struggle over whose going to govern in Iraq, strikes me as the classic definition of a QUAGMIRE."
-Secretary of War Dick DWI Cheney, 1991, Audio:
www.drinkingliberally.org/blogs/oakland/archives/2005/10/cheney_iraq_q
ua.html

"We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait. (US Secretary of State) James Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction."
-April Glaspie, US Ambassador to Iraq, videotaped meeting with Saddam Hussein on 7/25/90, New York Times, 9/23/90 (Iraq invaded on Kuwait 2 weeks later on August 2, 1990)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie






"Two words I never want to hear again in a sentence are Flash and Drive!"
-Nathan Fillion, Drive

DRIVE VS POLICE STATE: FREE TV EPISODES ONLINE
OOPS! CANCELLED!!! FINAL EPPS ON JULY 4 8PM EST
WTF?! FINAL EPPS FRIDAY 13 JULY 8PM EST!!! FOX SUX!
NOW FOX KILLED FINAL EPPS - ONLINE ONLY!!!
www.myspace.com/driveonfox

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation


www.myspace.com/piratenewsctv


Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 3:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Looks like the 'pirate' clowns have made it back from summer camp. There goes RWED, right into the garbage.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 3:29 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Looks like the 'pirate' clowns have made it back from summer camp. There goes RWED, right into the garbage.



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "


But how can that be?, when the RWED has you around with your wonderful above reproach insights to guide everyone with it.

and besides I was back on this board less then five minutes before you started with your insults, I know thats your own special way of letting me know how much you missed me, c'mon and admit it, you know you love us AURaptor: but thats alright your secret is safe with me

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 3:38 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Looks like the 'pirate' clowns have made it back from summer camp. There goes RWED, right into the garbage.


Here's some fantasy for you Araper, since you prefer it over RWED:

Quote:

"I worked out an anarchistic theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always does more harm than the crime and the people can be trusted to behave decently of you will only let them alone."
-George Orwell (MI6 agent Eric Blair), assassinated by Mycoplasma TB within 2 months of publication of 1984 (centenary of the British Fabian Socialist/Communist Society) and ratting out Communist spy Peter Smollett (head of the Soviet section in the British Ministry of Information), his wife was murdered by doctors during an operation, The Road to Wigan Pier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Orwell

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 3:40 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


Quote:
Originally posted by Penguin:
*waits for hell to freeze over*



King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa


Joins Penquin in waiting for hell to freeze over and offers him a poop shield in case pigs should fly.


---- plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre, Owner of a too big Turnippy smelling coat with MR scratched in the neck (thanks FollowMal!)

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, July 30, 2007 6:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

Some folk heard the same bullshit espoused before about southeast asia, which went real well, didn't it ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domino_theory

Again, I use the sig line I do for a reason.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:34 AM

ARCLIGHT


Amazing. Right-wing propaganda coming from the left. This is something I haven't seen before.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 1:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Who is responsible at the NY Times for printing this article? It goes against 5 long years of their hate-America, expose-America, help-America's enemies charter of existence. Heads will roll for this!
What's next? For all we good citizens know the Times will soon start :
a) Supporting profiling of Muslims with one-way tickets on planes.
b) Supporting listening in on phone calls to & from terrorist-harboring countries.
c) to actually sell a few newspapers.
Many American were saddenned and shocked when the NY Times hired former Saddam spokeperson Baghdad Bob back in 2003. His mighty influence on the Times' editorial pages as well as front pages has been criticized over the years as pushing a defeatist attitude and agenda in Iraq. 817 front page headlines about Abu Grahib and 3,218 headlines about Gitmo apparently has not exactly worked to totally deflate the American spirit as was the original goal of the NY Times owners and publishers when they stole Baghdad Bob away from virtually all the newpapers in the world who were bidding for his services. The Times, which sets the tone and substance for about 96.875% of all newspapers in America apparently has dismissed Bob from his duties as chief leftist propaganda bullshitist. But the final straw that broke the Times' collective back was when Maureen Dowd, that fair-minded, up-beat, friendly girl reporter was seen having sex doggy-style in the supply closet with Dawdle Limbaugh, son of Rush, the Time's harshest critic over the years.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
Who is responsible at the NY Times for printing this article? It goes against 5 long years of their hate-America, expose-America, help-America's enemies charter of existence
The hate-America NYT? Helloooo? Does Judith Miller ring a bell? This infamous NYT reporter carried GWB's water from 2001 to 2005. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Miller_(journalist)

I'm with you Frem. The bobble-heads have forgotten history. The only thing their heads are good for now is to serve as anal plugs.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:08 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I don't know SignyM. With all the shit coming out of them I don't think their heads are working too well.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"and the potential to produce not necessarily "victory" but a sustainable stability"

How does that compute with the title "Iraq: A War We Just Might Win" ? Oh, yeah. It doesn't.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:24 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"and the potential to produce not necessarily "victory" but a sustainable stability"

How does that compute with the title "Iraq: A War We Just Might Win" ? Oh, yeah. It doesn't.



It really burns you up that the U.S. might indeed win this war, doesn't it ? 'Sustainable stability' might be the best we get,instead of the ticker tape parade , all out 'end' to the war. I'll take stabilty as being 'victory' , thank you very much.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:34 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

For all we good citizens know the Times will soon start :
b) Supporting listening in on phone calls to & from terrorist-harboring countries.


so why do they track domestic calls? why did Bush sign an executive order to create a database of dissenting Americans, opposed to the Iraq war(among other things)? sounds more like we're the terrorists too.. which is probably why white men and little old ladies get violated at airports and security points as well


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:45 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

It really burns you up that the U.S. might indeed win this war, doesn't it ? 'Sustainable stability' might be the best we get,instead of the ticker tape parade , all out 'end' to the war. I'll take stabilty as being 'victory' , thank you very much.


ok, lets say stability is reached; does that mean Iraq is no longer our obligation? or will we still have to maintain troops? what im hearing is that you advocate the status quo, as if we need troops in 130 other countries. its mind boggling.. and i just cannot fathom why its you alleged 'conservatives'(and not the socialist liberals), who have so foolishly fallen for what amounts to big government centralized planning, in a foreign country, by force of arms. seems very hypocritical to me.. but republicans dont recognize Bushs big government leanings either, so it must just be blind obedience

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:52 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


They have been pro-war and pro-surge all along. Their editorial is about as left-wing as Hannity, and their 'facts' as suspect as a FOX broadcast.

Michael O'Hanlon -- -- was one of the signatories to a letter on Iraq policy issued by Project for New American Century

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/grenwald/2
007/07/31/ohnalon/

TUESDAY JULY 31, 2007 08:38 EST

A NEW LOW OF MINDLESSNESS FOR OUR MEDIA

It is difficult to remember a media spectacle to match yesterday's grand pageant where Ken Pollack and Michael O'Hanlon were paraded across virtually every network and cable news show and radio program and heralded as "war opponents" and "Bush critics" who nonetheless returned from Iraq and were forced by The Truth to admit that we are Winning. For sheer deceit and propaganda, it is difficult to remember something quite this audacious and transparently false.

As was demonstrated yesterday, O'Hanlon and Pollack were among the most voracious cheerleaders for Bush's invasion and, as the war began to collapse, among its most deceitful defenders. But it goes so far beyond that.

Even through this year, they have remained loyal Bush supporters. They were not only advocates of the war, but cheerleaders for the Surge. They were, and continue to be, on the fringe of pro-war sentiment in this country. And yet all day yesterday, this country's media loudly hailed them as being exactly the opposite of what they really are. It was 24 hours of unadulterated, amazingly coordinated war propaganda that could not have been any further removed from the truth.

Let's just look at their record within the last year alone. In December of 2006, the NYT -- as it frequently does -- invited O'Hanlon to write an Op-Ed on "The State of Iraq -- an Update," and this is what the vicious Bush critic and war opponent O'Hanlon said was needed in Iraq:
Significant changes are clearly needed. At a minimum, we will probably require some combination of the options now being offered the president by the Iraq Study Group, the Pentagon and others -- a large program to create jobs, a surge of perhaps 25,000 more American troops to Iraq to improve security in Baghdad, an ultimatum to Iraqi political leaders that if they fail to achieve consensus on key issues like sharing oil, American support for the operation could very soon decline.
O'Hanlon -- whom the media spent all day yesterday lionizing as some sort of Abbie Hoffman-like war protester who saw the light on the Road to Baghdad and realized that the war he hated was, in fact, Succeeding -- was advocating the Surge even before George Bush announced it. And now -- so shockingly -- O'Hanlon proclaims that the Surge which he publicly urged was a Great Idea because it is Working. And that was the leading news story all day yesterday.

Far worse still, when supreme warmonger and Bill-Kristol-partner Fred Kagan, who designed Bush's Surge strategy, wanted to unveil his Magic Plan, where did he go? To the Brookings Institution to visit with his friends Mike O'Hanlon and Ken Pollack:
On December 21, 2006 the [Brooking Institution's] Saban Center for Middle East Policy hosted a policy discussion during which Frederick Kagan presented the views of the AEI team. . . .

[A] group led by Frederick Kagan, under the auspices of the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), has recently released a study proposing a new approach for stabilizing Iraq, entitled Choosing Victory: A Plan for Success in Iraq. The report proposes shifting the focus of the U.S. military deployed in Iraq from training the Iraqi armed forces to securing the Iraqi population and containing the escalating violence. To achieve this, Kagan and his colleagues propose increasing U.S. combat forces in Iraq by roughly 30,000 effectives.
After the War Genius Kagan was done unveiling his Grand Plan for Victory, ferocious Bush critic and fist-pumping Iraq war opponent Mike O'Hanlon spoke:
Following Kagan's presentation, Michael O'Hanlon provided commentary. O'Hanlon supported the overall strategy elaborated by the AEI team.
Introducing Kagan was Super Tough War Opponent and Bush critic Ken Pollack, who said ( http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/events/20061221.pdf):
We are delighted that Fred Kagan of AEI was willing to come over here today and be the lead speaker in this series. . . . I think you are aware that Fred's plan, as they are already presenting it, is starting to make a great deal of waves in Washington because they are coming forward and saying that it is possible to succeed there, that it may requires some additional troops, but that it won't break the bank and it is worth doing.
It is obviously a very important contribution to the debate because it is the first time that a group of serious people have sat down, worked out a plan by which they believe that both of these things. . . .
After Kagan was done unveiling all of the glories of his Surge, this is the first thing which the anti-war Bush critic O'Hanlon said:
I am going to be fairly brief in my reactions. I basically want to make one broad argument which is that Fred makes me extremely nervous but having concluded that every other option on the table is probably worse and make me even more nervous, I wound up being fairly sympathetic to this idea with the other broad theme being I think we have to view 2007 as the make or break year.” ()

And on January 10, 2007, right after Bush announced his Surge plan, O'Hanlon went and testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee ( http://www.brookings.edu/views/testimony/ohanlon/20070110.pdf) and advocated Bush's plan:
Our Brookings data suggest rationales for each of these possible steps. Even if there are also counterarguments. Coalition forces have never reached the numbers needed to provide security for the population in Iraq, and indigenous forces remain suspect – in their technical proficiency, and even moreso in their political dependability. These two realities make at least tactical sense for the surge, if it is really reasonable on the part of our already overworked soldier and Marines,

O'Hanlon followed up his pro-surge testimony with an Op-Ed in The Washington Post -- entitled "A Skeptic's Case for the Surge" -- in which he said about the Surge: "it is still the right thing to try." This is just some of what was written in that Op-Ed by O'Hanlon, the person the media told us repeatedly yesterday was a real tough Bush critic and war skeptic:
* each main element of the president's plan has some logic behind it . . .
* it would still be counterintuitive for the president's critics to prevent him from carrying out the very policy they have collectively recommended. . . .
* the president wants to move in the right direction on economic reconstruction. . . .
* President Bush is rightly telegraphing to Iraqi leaders that they must reach compromises with each other . . .
* Rather than deny funding for Bush's initiatives, Congress should provide it now . . .
* Congress should also give the president the money and support that he requests.

In February, O'Hanlon went to the Wall St. Journal Editorial Page to argue that Congressional Democrats were wrong to oppose the war and should allow the Surge to continue because Gen. David G. Petraeus has a New Plan that "is much more consonant with classic counterinsurgency doctrine than anything the coalition has tried to date." Joe Lieberman and Bill Kristol could not have said it better themselves.

That is the person who yesterday made front-page and lead-item news by announcing his completely shocking and unexpected findings that the Surge plan (that he advocated) means that the war in Iraq (which he boisterously supported and on which his professional reputation is riding) is succeeding (just as he predicted it would).

When it comes to the Iraq War, Mike O'Hanlon and Ken Pollack are rank pro-war propagandists whose differences with Bill Kristol, Fred Kagan and National Review are microscopic. Indeed, this year, O'Hanlon and Fred Kagan jointly authored a Grand Plan ( http://www3.brookings.edu/views/articles/ohanlon/2007april_kagan.pdf) for a wild expansion of the U.S. military in order to support the new wars they undoubtedly are envisioning together. It is more surprising -- and more newsworthy -- that the sun rose this morning than it is that O'Hanlon and Pollack have announced that the Surge is Succeeding.

At the Brookings party they threw for Fred Kagan, O'Hanlon -- after lavishing Kagan's Surge plan with praise -- went on to identify what he called the one aspect of the plan he thought should be modified:
This makes me again want to modify one aspect of hi plan, rather than give it blanket endorsement, to say I think we have to view 2007 as the year of the surge with the surge being viewed as a short-term phenomenon

So again, O'Hanlon repeatedly emphasized that while he loves the Surge, it must be confined to 2007. But what did he say yesterday in the NYT?
But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.
I spent yesterday and today reading through virtually all of the writings and interviews of these two Brookings geniuses over the past four years concerning Iraq. There is no coherence or consistency to anything they say. It shifts constantly. They say whatever they need to say at the moment to justify the war for which they bear responsibility. It is exactly like reading through the writings of Bill Kristol, Tom Friedman and every other individual who flamboyantly supported this disaster and -- motivated solely by salvaging their own reputations -- are desperate to find some method to argue that they were right.

Even though I write frequently about how broken and corrupt our establishment media is, witnessing these two war lovers -- supporters of the invasion, advocates of the Surge, comrades of Fred Kagan -- mindlessly depicted all day yesterday by media mouthpieces as the opposite of what they are was really quite startling. After all, there is a record as long as it is clear demonstrating what they really are.

But in order to maximize the potency of their propagandistic Op-Ed, they proclaimed themselves to be "analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration's miserable handling of Iraq" and -- just like that -- Americans hear all day about the magical and dramatic conversion of these deeply skeptical war opponents who were forced by the Grand Success they witnessed first-hand in Iraq, as much as they hate to do it, to admit oh-so-reluctantly that the Surge really is working! Well, if even these Howard-Dean-like War Opponents say it, it must be true. That was the leading "news" story all day yesterday.

UPDATE: In March, 2003, Michael O'Hanlon -- the Joan Baez of our time -- was one of the signatories to a letter on Iraq policy issued by Project for New American Century, Bill Kristol's warmongering group. Also signing the letter were O'Hanlon's fellow anti-Bush agitators and critics of the Iraq War, such as Max Boot, Frank Carlucci, Eliot Cohen, The Weekly Standard's Reuel Marc Gerecht, Commentary's Joshua Muravchik, the AEI's Danielle Pletka, and the AEI's Gary Schmitt.
Maybe tomorrow Sean Hannity will write a startling Op-Ed announcing that George Bush has been a great President and the media can have another 24-hour lead story about this shocking and revealing development.
-- Glenn Greenwald


***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
It really burns you up that the U.S. might indeed win this war, doesn't it ? 'Sustainable stability' might be the best we get,instead of the ticker tape parade , all out 'end' to the war. I'll take stabilty as being 'victory' , thank you very much
"Sustainable stability". Is that sustained with or without US bases in Iraq? If it's with bases then what I see is "sustainable drain".

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:11 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
It really burns you up that the U.S. might indeed win this war, doesn't it ? 'Sustainable stability' might be the best we get,instead of the ticker tape parade , all out 'end' to the war. I'll take stabilty as being 'victory' , thank you very much
"Sustainable stability". Is that sustained with or without US bases in Iraq? If it's with bases then what I see is "sustainable drain".

.


Seeing how they're building a huge air base in Iraq......

We have bases around the world..Germany, Japan, England.... maybe we can close some of those and consolidate ? The US had a huge air base in the Philipines at Subic Bay, before Mt Penetubo blew up.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:36 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Oh how thrilling to see the demented Left butt-plug epithet & vulgarity spewing crowd out here in force today. Kinda warms the heart a tad.


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 8:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Always glad to be of service Jongsstraw.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:11 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


They have been pro-war and pro-surge all along. Their editorial is about as left-wing as Hannity, and their 'facts' as suspect as a FOX broadcast. Michael O'Hanlon was a PNAC signatory on Iraq policy.

This is news only if you assume they're left-wingers who've seen the light, and if you think their reportage is unbiased. Neither is true.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 9:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:
We have bases around the world..Germany, Japan, England.... maybe we can close some of those and consolidate ? The US had a huge air base in the Philipines at Subic Bay, before Mt Penetubo blew up.

I vote for eliminating bases in Antigua, Australia, Austria, the Bahamas, Belgium, Canada, Colombia, Cuba, Denmark, Egypt, Germany, Greenland, Greece, Honduras, Iceland, Italy, most of Japan, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Peru, Portugal, most of South Korea, Spain, the UK, Venezuela, Kuwait, Qatar, leaving bases in Diego Garcia, some in S Korea, some in Japan, and Afghanistan and Iraq as long as our troops are there.


DOD Base Structure Report
www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2003/basestructure2003.pdf

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:06 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
We have bases around the world..Germany, Japan, England.... maybe we can close some of those and consolidate ? The US had a huge air base in the Philipines at Subic Bay, before Mt Penetubo blew up.

I vote for eliminating bases in Antigua, Australia, Austria, the Bahamas, Belgium, Canada, Colombia, Cuba, Denmark, Egypt, Germany, Greenland, Greece, Honduras, Iceland, Italy, most of Japan, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Peru, Portugal, most of South Korea, Spain, the UK, Venezuela, Kuwait, Qatar, leaving bases in Diego Garcia, some in S Korea, some in Japan, and Afghanistan and Iraq as long as our troops are there.


DOD Base Structure Report
www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2003/basestructure2003.pdf



Leave Antigua and the Bahamas ? Are you friggin CRAZY ? Our military might is needed there more than anywhere else! What is it with you cheese eating surrender monkeys??



People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


What "burns" me is watching MY friends come back in fucking body bags while fighting a pair of dickheads WE created then supported, in order to prop up MORE dickheaded puppets so we can repeat the process while the MIC and oil barons make a mint, not to mention all those juicy homeland security contracts with no oversight or auditing worth a damn.

They oughta start printing US Money with red ink, cause it's fuckin blood money.

Oh, gee, do I sound pissed - you tell me what I should tell someones crying mother on the phone after they deliver "The Letter" to her, then.

Unlike the right wing media which fed you the Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman bullshit stories, I will not defame the death of a soldier by telling their family lies.

About all I can do (and mind you, this seems a great comfort to them) is promise to keep my boot in the ass of the morons who gots us into this.

This one's from specialist Hardees family, you right-wing fucktards.
*slap*

Here, redeem your worthless oxygen wasting asses by supporting the poor fools YOU got into this shit.
http://www.anysoldier.com/

-Frem
*Going out somewhere to cool off a bit*

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 10:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Exactly which 'dickheads' did we create ??

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:39 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Well, I see the orginal premise of the thread has run out. It's not about winning, it's not about liberals seeing the light, and it's not about facts.

Buhh bye now.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
One of Laken Riley's Murderers given life in prison...
Fri, November 22, 2024 03:07 - 1 posts
Where is the 25th ammendment when you need it?
Fri, November 22, 2024 02:59 - 2 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, November 21, 2024 23:55 - 7478 posts
Thread of Trump Appointments / Other Changes of Scenery...
Thu, November 21, 2024 22:03 - 40 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, November 21, 2024 22:03 - 4787 posts
1000 Asylum-seekers grope, rape, and steal in Cologne, Germany
Thu, November 21, 2024 21:46 - 53 posts
Music II
Thu, November 21, 2024 21:43 - 117 posts
Lying Piece of Shit is going to start WWIII
Thu, November 21, 2024 20:56 - 17 posts
Are we in WWIII yet?
Thu, November 21, 2024 20:31 - 18 posts
More Cope: "Donald Trump Has Not Won a Majority of the Votes Cast for President"
Thu, November 21, 2024 19:40 - 7 posts
Biden admin quietly loosening immigration policies before Trump takes office — including letting migrants skip ICE check-ins in NYC
Thu, November 21, 2024 18:18 - 2 posts
All things Space
Thu, November 21, 2024 18:11 - 267 posts
 VIEW MORE TOPICS 

FFF.NET SOCIAL