Quote:

---

Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Frankly, the more I've studied about the subject, the more frightened I become about where the world's heading. But since I don't want to form a concrete opinion on the subject quite yet, I wanted to hear what you guys think.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Asking for opinions on this board can sometimes be a dangerous thing, but not as dangerous as actually giving your opinion....but, here goes:
I look at globalization as both good & bad. It has opened up the world markets for American companies to do business with billions of people, it allows Americans to get cheap goods & services, and occasionally, as a side effect, it creates alliances and friendships around the world.
On the negative side I believe it has polluted American values; values that historically made America an industrious juggernaut and envy of the world, polluted our values of family and religion, and polluted our traditional values of personal responsibility.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
60" flatscreen Sony?...You bastard! You capitalist pig! You neo-con fascist!

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
60" flatscreen Sony?...You bastard! You capitalist pig! You neo-con fascist!

---

Do you really need one that big? Seriously I have problems watching SD content on a 32 and there doesnt seem to be that much HD content to be had. Doesnt SD on a 60 inch look like Picasso?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Do you really need one that big? Seriously I have problems watching SD content on a 32 and there doesnt seem to be that much HD content to be had. Doesnt SD on a 60 inch look like Picasso?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero:
On the other hand, I love my 60" flatscreen Sony

---

Can I come over to your house?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~Peter*Peter*Power>~re-peater~



HEROES IS MY CRACK!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Quote:

---

I think the point here is that the market WILL grow, which is the aim of free trade and in time the developed economies will want to buy things from places like the US.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:

And I believe it will be a race to the bottom. And with the capitalist system in general, it will be a race to see who can use up the earth first and fastest.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

I think the point here is that the market WILL grow, which is the aim of free trade and in time the developed economies will want to buy things from places like the US.

---

And this is exactly what I'm contesting because IMHO the market will SHRINK in the long run.
Has nothing to do with how long we wait or "instant gratification".
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
I had added more to my post above.

I've tried to explain my reasoning several times already. The market shrinks because each time a "bundle" of money cycles through the economy, a certain portion of that money gets siphoned off into something called "profit". What happens to this "profit" is important to the economy. Let's say there is an average 10% profit, and in this case it goes into a mattress somewhere. That means each time the money is cycled through the economy, there is less and less money in circulation: $100B, then $90B... $91B... etc. That inevitably shrinks "the market" simply because there is less and less money available to "buy stuff" with.


I know that profit doesn't go into a mattress... I'll get to that later but I need to know if you're with me so far.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
But as economic analysis shows the person who gains profit never invests or spends it all. And the more they have, the less likely they are to be ABLE to do anything with the bulk of it (unless they give it away, which rarely happens).

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
Profit is not the same as stocks.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

But this assumes that everyone who gains money by profit just sits and counts it like Scrooge McDuck. In reality if you just sit on money it becomes worthless (eroded by inflation.)

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

But this assumes that everyone who gains money by profit just sits and counts it like Scrooge McDuck. In reality if you just sit on money it becomes worthless (eroded by inflation.)

---

So if you're worth 100 billion, and inflation cuts it in half, you'd still be on top. Rich folk buy stuff to own, like real estate and companies.

Quote:

---

and when they buy stuff they put money back into the economy. They dont sit on it.

Quote:

---

Economics is a science, staying at the top is a game.

---

Economics is not a science if it were you would have predictable results. It's an observation of the way that humans trade with one another to various degrees and at various levels. Every time you hear that economists are surprised (several times a year right?) that means that they guessed wrong --- or to be completely accurate the models they made didnt predict what real people decided to do.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
He doesn't divulge what he does with his billions. But generally, ultra-wealthy spend lavishly on things like homes, second homes and third homes around the globe, on private jets, and on acquiring more money-making investments - like corporations - which further concetrates wealth.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
"Economics is ... an observation of the way that humans trade with one another to various degrees and at various levels." Structured by human-made laws. It's not a natural process - it's highly artificial.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

and when they buy stuff they put money back into the economy. They dont sit on it.

---

Quote:

---

Economics is not a science if it were you would have predictable results. It's an observation of the way that humans trade with one another to various degrees and at various levels. Every time you hear that economists are surprised (several times a year right?) that means that they guessed wrong --- or to be completely accurate the models they made didnt predict what real people decided to do.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

and when they buy stuff they put money back into the economy. They dont sit on it.

---

Once they buy a villa or a yacht, the DO INDEED sit on it.

Quote:

---

---

As do you in the house you own, so does the guy working the night shift at GM. Your point is? If your argument is taht all ownership is theft will you give back what you stole first?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

As do you in the house you own, so does the guy working the night shift at GM. Your point is?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

So looking only at "investment"...

A business expands production when it sees an expanding market. But if the money supply stays the same the market will be stagnant, so a business will invest either to increase market share (improved product, acqusition/ consolidation) or to create higher profits through greater automation or lower pay rates. Neither one of those activites actually expands the market, and reduced pay rates and/or automation -while improving the bottom line in the short run- reduces the total amount of money that will be used to "buy stuff" with and shrinks the market.

I know you'll prolly dispute my view of "what happens to profits" so if you'd like we can go thru a specific example of your choice.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
BTW Fletch, I highly recommend this book, available at Amazon.com, which I have and have read.
."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Let's look at a more realistic point of view.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rue:
"All money going back into the economy."

It's not true that ALL the money goes back into the economy. The vast majority never does.

---

Quote:

---

And that isn't their interest anyway. Their interest is in making MORE money. So they spend the vast majority of their money in acquiring more money making opportunities or in buying up the competition.

And that further concentrates wealth.
."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Okay, let's. Can the average first week's paycheck of a McDonald cashier buy more 'stuff' back in 1980, or can today's first week's paycheck buy more right now?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

How much are you willing to pay for a burger? If it's less than $5 then chances are the "value" added by the cashier isn't enough to pay them more. That applies to a lot of people.

You can't afford to pay someone more than the value they add to the product. If you Chris would pay more for a burger then the cashier would be paid more. As it is if the local McD raises prices you will just go to Wendy's and the McD goes out of business. Ultimately YOU decide what that gal gets paid by waht YOU will pay for her product.

---

Quote:

---

That's called "investment" amongst other things it pays to start and expand businesses and thus hire working Joes that use their pay to buy food/housing/ consumer goods etc. If the money was never invested and wrapped in plastic you would have a point but it isn't it goes ultimately to pay guys to do stuff.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

That's called "investment" amongst other things it pays to start and expand businesses and thus hire working Joes that use their pay to buy food/housing/ consumer goods etc. If the money was never invested and wrapped in plastic you would have a point but it isn't it goes ultimately to pay guys to do stuff.

---

Did you even read my post? A company will not invest in increasing production unless they see an expanding market. Why would I, as a business, invest in producing more widgets if I don't think anybody will buy them? Now, considering that I'm already holding onto 10% of the last amount of money which cycled through the economy, that's 10% NOT available to buy my widgets.


.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

If your idea is to isolate one economic element your argumant is baseless. In your simplification you have postulated a world where one manufacturer has a monopoly making something nobody would buy.
If there is a cap on the number of notes in the economy the value of the ones being traded will rise. Expansion in the money supply ultimately reflects increase in wealth in the economy, if it doesnt the value of the notes falls and you get hyperinflation.

---

Quote:

---

If your idea is to isolate one economic element your argumant is baseless. In your simplification you have postulated a world where one manufacturer has a monopoly making something nobody would buy. In that case they go to the wall like buggy whip makers.

---