Do I have any legal recourse? by 6ixStringJack

"Do I have any legal recourse?"

Zilch.

And you can thank our "peers" and their fearful and cowardly handing over almost every one of our rights to big daddy government from the evil scourge of 'illegal' drugs while bending over and cheering for the man as they forcefeed the next generation ritalin to keep em nice and meek and pacified.

At this point, the bastards have it coming, I just wish their cowardice and stupidity didn't dig our graves right next to theirs, Jack.

If you absolutely have to put up with it to put food on the table, there's many ways to internally sandbag it depending on how valuable you are to the company and your boss - like making sure to schedule a drug test so that it occurs dead smack in the middle of the quarterly meeting, then informing them of this as you walk right on out, cause yanno... such measures take priority over the actual work now, and all...

Best of show however, has to be finding the person most responsible, and using all those bastard data thieves and collectors to your own advantage by digging up ALL their personal dirt and spreading it to every corner of the office via the water cooler gossip line - when they realize just how fast and easily those background checks can boomerang on THEM, oh wow, all of the sudden they're not so damn important anymore...

With a little slickness and imagination, one could conceivable arrange things so those security measures become a hindrance to getting anything at all done - scheduling key employees for drug tests at the very moment they most need to be there, backing up the human resources department with endless petty bullshit based out of the background checks, arranging for data to get lost so that some folks have to go through it over and over again, outing folks with different sexual or religious preference, again through the water cooler gossip line, and make sure EVERY bit of that data that can possibly leak and start trouble... does.

Sure, it's sandbagging, and to some degree sabotage of the company employing you - but they chose to come forward and sabotage your employment if not your life, treating you as a prisoner and enemy instead of a valued employee, breaking the compact between employer and employed... so why feel sorry for them about it ?

When nothing is getting done, morale completely tanks, critical folk have quit or started idling in place, and everyone is bitching about it top to bottom, rest assured most of those measures are gonna go the way of the dodo bird in a hurry.

It doesn't take much to bend the thoughts and will of people who have already handed both over to their so-called betters, a touch here, a nudge there, all nicely discrete and untraceable back to you, and they'll find themselves facing a revolt of sorts in short order.

And what are you really risking but a job that has become offensive to you by this conduct, really ?

You wanted my thoughts on it, and there you have em.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, October 29, 2007 7:49 PM

Nope, US contracts of employment, at least all the ones I've ever seen, allow the company to hire and fire at will. You don't have a constitutional right to employment. Same thing happened to me recently, I had to sign a new company security policy that gave them explicit permission to search my car if it is in their lot (we were just taken over and the new policy is SOP for our new corporate masters but wasn't for the old company.)

If your workplace is unionised see your rep otherwise determine how badly you want this job. One thing to note though is that if you want to get references from these people and salvage something from the hard work you've put in then it's probably not a good idea to piss them off.

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Monday, October 29, 2007 8:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
I was wondering what the legality of these practices are and if there is any way to combat this illegal search and seizure of my private life.

If it was illegal search and seizure of your private life then yes, there would be redress in the courts. However, it’s probably not. That doesn’t mean you’re not without legal recourse. You can always quit.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, October 29, 2007 8:21 PM

Short of the cum in these nuts, I can't see what could possibly be more private than the content of my piss. And without reasonable suspicion that I'm coming to work messed up, I don't see how the threat of termination without compliance could be viewed as anything other than illegal search and seizure of my bodily fluids.

Thanks for your input everybody. I didn't think the answer would be any different. Unfortunately Frem, I'm doing well here, but I'm not in any position to do the things you mention. Although I did get a nice laugh reading the ideas. When I say big company, I mean BIG company. This wasn't the decision of one dipshit, but a colloraboration of dipshits that view my peers and I as nothing more than a statistic to their bottom line. If I don't bend over and piss in a cup for them, they'll find some other monkey who will.

The worst part about it is that for the first time in about 8 years I'm actually working at a job that I actually kind of enjoy. At least, it's the first job in that much time that I don't absolutely loathe getting up to go to.

Oh well... I've managed to save about 35k in the 3 years I've been here. Mayhap it's time I move down south and buy that small house with a couple acres of land at least an hour and a half away from any moderately large city and try my hand at raising livestock, fishing and hunting. That is, when I'm not at my new part time job.....

"Welcome to Wal Mart. My name is Jack. How can I help you?"

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, October 29, 2007 8:54 PM

Well, if yer gonna quit, and don't care much what they think of you afterwords...

Wait till they order you to be tested, take the empty cup, walk OUT on the testing center, go back to work and sling it at the manager over his desk (bonus points if you can do this publicly on a busy day) while explaining to him that if he wants a piss sample that bad, you'll be quite happy to leave him one on his desktop, sans cup, for his edification, and inquring if he'd like a stool sample as well - while unzipping your pants.

No shit, I've seen that done - some pissed off, now ex-visteon employee had enough of it when due to a scheduling mishap, they sent him twice in the same week.

If yer gonna go, go with style!

-F

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Monday, October 29, 2007 9:03 PM

HA!

I really like my supervisor though.

Might not be a bad idea with HR though. They're the only profession I have less respect for than cops and lawyers.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:32 AM

LEADB

Sorry 'the word' is so negative Jack; I'd hoped to be wrong.

If you are prepared to quit; my recommendation is to make it clear to your first line manager that you consider the action a gross invasion of privacy, and that while you value...etc, you will start seeking new employment if actually required to test. The point here is you may discover that there's some internal conflict regarding the policy, and that by make a firm statement, you might give your first line some material to stand on. You might get lucky and he/she will tell you that things aren't as bad as the rumor mill suggests, or that some exceptions are being permitted. If you can't get a personal exception that way, then I'd suggest you stir the waters and make sure as many folks as possible 'ponder the facts', see if you can shift the attitude at work. (My guess is you are already working that, but I will risk stating the obvious) Finally, at some point simply refuse; it has been known to happen that a company is 'talking big'; until they make the first fire they might not be prepared to follow through, if you quit, you make it easy for them. Also, I don't know about your company, but mine can take 6 to 12 months to fire a person; that's 6 to 12 months of HR resources, management attention, and other hassle. If you aren't prepared to quit, then your options are limited.

On the flip side, I do like the drama of Frem's suggestion.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:03 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Hey Six,
What's the big deal....really? You're gonna throw away your job over this? What makes you think the next company you apply for won't ask you to do the same? Insurance companies offer lower rates to employers that comply with drug & criminal checks. It also helps to make for a safer work environment. So....go ahead & piss in the cup again; you'll laugh all the way to the bank each week with your well-deserved paycheck.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And without reasonable suspicion that I'm coming to work messed up, I don't see how the threat of termination without compliance could be viewed as anything other than illegal search and seizure of my bodily fluids.

Your confusing your boss with your government.

The Constitution does not restrict private individuals from searching and seizing your bodily fluids. It also does not guarrantee you a job.

So if a fella acosted you on the street and took your urine for a test...that would be illegal, a criminal act.

But your company is not forcing you to take the test any more then they are forcing you to come to work. They are simply saying that a condition of your employment includes security and drug testing. Its then your choice if you can meet the conditions they are placing on you.

I note for the record that with very limited exceptions your company cannot force you to take a polygraph test. There's a specific law about that, the Employee Polygraph Protection Act.

There is no such law protecting your urine.

So to answer your original question...do you have a legal recourse? Yes. You can quit. You are under no legal requirement to continue working under those conditions.

I note for the record that you have the right to free speech, yet your company can mandate dress code, limit what you can say while at work, or fire you for political reasons. Likewise you can say what you want to your boss, including "I quit".

H

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:07 AM

Yup... that's what I figured. Thanks everybody....

Just think it's a shame that we're going to let our Government subject every American to tests like this for jobs that American's do want. The fact that the Government isn't the one doing the tests itself is just a minor technicality.

Looks like I've got some serious choices to make in 2008.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 7:14 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
search and seizure of my private life.

Welcome to the United States Of America, a subsidiary of Omni Consumer Products.

Roboisall

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:04 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Recently my company has been acquired by a much larger company. As such, there are going to be a lot of changes around here. The one which gets under my skin the most is the annual semi-random security measures taking place. I do not know what they entail at this point, because it was worded very vaguely, but I have heard the usual credit/criminal background checks all the way up to drug testing and fingerprinting.

That's more than I go through for security clearance. :?

I was shocked when I went to the Atlanta Aquarium and was subject to a mandatory search.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:09 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

I was shocked when I went to the Atlanta Aquarium and was subject to a mandatory search.

Keeps the Fish Jihaders at bay though....

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Yup... that's what I figured. Thanks everybody....

Just think it's a shame that we're going to let our Government subject every American to tests like this for jobs that American's do want. The fact that the Government isn't the one doing the tests itself is just a minor technicality.

Looks like I've got some serious choices to make in 2008.

I'm not sure you can saddle government with this one. The worse that can be said about it is that they didnt pass laws to protect you.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Keeps the Fish Jihaders at bay though....

Its to protect the water, I hear they're thirsty in Atlanta...

I note for the record that there is beer in Texarkana.

Edited to add: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_travel/20071030/ap_tr_ge/travel_brief_droug
ht_saving_water;_ylt=Av42jvwwok6iEaJJxLAyOsKs0NUE
H

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:16 AM

Not true though Fletch....

3 or 4 months ago, supervisors and people who had access to any information with the new post office account had to get fingerprinted at the police station, take another piss test, criminal background checks, credit checks, give information about everywhere they lived for the last 10 years and give names and address of their family members. They all had very thick manilla envelopes in which they had tons of forms to sign... Their only other option was to quit too. I said I wanted no part of that and so far, it looked like I wasn't going to have to be a part of it.

Our new merger is just doing the job to the rest of us that the Government didn't already do. All that remains to be seen is if the background checks they do to everyone else will be more or less invasive. Won't know till December or January from what I hear now.

I can only imagine how much worse it will be when they can legally tag everyone's posts online to a name and they read this thread and fire me because of something I've said here. Don't we have another thread on that already?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 11:26 AM

That sounds like they needed clearance for something, posibly because they will have special access to post office fascillities (???) That's not that uncommon, there are a lot of jobs I know I cant even apply for in the US without already having US security clearance.

That's a different thing than your company's general security policy that you seem to have fallen foul of.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 5:31 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
.....Oh well... I've managed to save about 35k in the 3 years I've been here. Mayhap it's time I move down south and buy that small house with a couple acres of land at least an hour and a half away from any moderately large city ..... http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

Not quite enough to buy a derelict spaceship and fix 'er up.

You're Walmart quip has me laughing. Reminds me of Kevin Spacey in American Beauty...." I don't want to be a manager, I want the job with the least responsiblility you have..." (or something like that)

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:40 PM

LOL... love that movie man. Kevin Spacey is great.

Yup... that's pretty much me. I've been doing a great job so far not living up to my potential and I intend to keep it that way. The more time I have to play guitar and take it easy, the richer my life is.

Ahhhhh... the life of a minimalist. Just saving those acorns now so I can get my couple acres of land and maybe put a solar roof on the house out in the middle of Marlboro country.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I note for the record that there is beer in Texarkana.

Yes, but they say it can't be done.

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:53 PM

Is it bad that I actually "get" that....

GeezerlyFrem

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:22 PM

Care to enlighten a dumb kid? That went right over my head.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Care to enlighten a dumb kid? That went right over my head.

It's the lyrics to the theme for the 1980's Burt Renolds movie "Smokey and the Bandit" (and the whole plot of the movie.)

the words with the specific parts highlighted.

Keep your foot hard on the pedal
Son, never mind them brakes
Let it all hang out cause we got a run to make
The boys are thirsty in Atlanta
and there's beer in Texarkana
We'll bring it back no matter what it takes

Eastbound and down, loaded up and truckin'
Ah we gonna do what they say can't be done
We've got a long way to go, and a short time to get there
I'm eastbound, just watch old Bandit run

Was it really illegal to import beer into Georgia and if so why?

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 8:50 PM

Thanks Fletch....

Would you believe that I've never actually seen Smokey and the Bandit? Me? Mr. Smokey?

I probably wasn't even a year old when it came out. heh.... Were the 80's really that long ago?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, October 30, 2007 9:12 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Don't sign anything. One scam these corporate lawyers dream up is the "NEW MODIFIED UPDATED Employee Handbook", which they claim is a contract. Unless you sign your name and have it notarized on the Handbook, and its filed in corporate HQ, that the NEW employee handbook is not binding on you.

If you do sign under duress, write "under protest" beside your name, which voids that contract. Demand a copy of everything you sign, and make a log, to protect yourself from forged employment contracts.

This is why survival today depends on learning how to own your own business.

All states have legal protections for employees, even "Hire at Will" states.

Talk to your state govt Labor Dept, or an employment lawyer, who will perhaps be happy to tell you how to set up the corporation for a lawsuit. The lawyer will want 60% of the winnings, and the IRS will want 90% of what's left - or IRS will demand 150% if your lawyer suckers you into paying their taxes. Unless you own your own business on the side, as a tax shelter to invest your winnings in, to offset your "income" from backpay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng
Hanoi Hannity: "Outsourcing your job is good for me."
"US ports owned by Commie China is good for me."
"Dead and disabled US soldiers are good for me."
"Sir Rupert dines with Hillary every week."
"Ron Paul does not exist in my 'Verse."

"As far as Chinese goes, I resented it."
-Adam Tudyk, The Making of Firefly

FOX, MYSPACE & FIREFLY OWNED BY COMMUNIST CHINA!
www.piratenews.org/pntv-schedule.html

Does that seem right to you?
Firefly Music Video: Tangerine dream - Confrontation, Thief soundtrack
www.megavideo.com/?v=JVT35GR8
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 12:47 AM

Good advice for the future.... it's just that I was so in debt and desperate for a job 3 years ago, that I'm not exactly sure what I may have agreed to back then. Who knows what they already have over me. Just asking at this point might be some sort of red flag.

Like when I was 17 and got fired from Toys R Us for knowing somebody was stealing and being stupid enough to admit that I knew it was going on and I didn't say anything. I'm the only guy in the stockroom to get the 5 cent an hour merit raise, but HR pencilpushing fucks I'd never met had no problem kicking my ass right out of there. I'm actually blacklisted from ever working there again, which I find hilarious now.

I will sign anything in the future with "Under Protest" though. Love to see the look on those HR fucks faces when I hand that in.

Thanks PN

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Was it really illegal to import beer into Georgia and if so why?

I don't think so, but there are strange beer laws on the books that make it difficult to distribute it. My understanding was that Coors, an American beer now widely available, could not be legally distributed to Georgia because it was illegal to ship it east of Texas for some unknown reason. As a result, people actually bootlegged Coors, and if you've ever tasted Coors, you'll realize that the only thing stupider then a law that you can't ship it east of Texas is risking going to jail to drink that crap.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes, but they say it can't be done.

Thirty years ago...maybe not. But in todays world...anything is possible. If you can run a truckload of illegals from Texas to Atlanta and back in 18 hours...you can do anything.

Viva la bandito!

H

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletch2:
Was it really illegal to import beer into Georgia and if so why?

The answer is yes, it was illegal back then:

Found this on Wikipedia:

"The selection of Coors as the contraband of choice centered on the limited distribution of that brand across the country in the 1970's. The resulting inability to legally purchase Coors beer in many states resulted in a minor bootlegging fad, and many cross-country vacationers travelling by car were asked by friends and neighbors to bring back six-packs and cases of the beverage. The fad died out in the early 1980's when state and local issues that had previously prevented Coors distributorships from opening in and/or shipping to those regions were loosened and/or repealed."

In some areas this kind of thing is still done with other products such as cigarettes and perscription drugs. I'd like to see a new movie with an aging Bandit taking a bunch of senior citizens to Canada for drugs...that would be a good movie.

H

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:23 AM

FIVVER

I used to travel nationwide as a roving trouble shooter for a computer company back during that time and I was always sneaking a six pack or two into my luggage for friends back in Atlanta. When my fiancee moved from St. Louis to Atlanta we rented a U-Haul truck that happened to have an overhang over the cab. We filled it with cases of Coors to bribe folks to help us unload.

I'm not sure it was actually illegal to (aside from bootlegging laws) to import Coors back then. As I understand it since Coors was brewed, stored and transported cold the company had a limited distribution area to help assure product quality.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
I'm not sure it was actually illegal to (aside from bootlegging laws) to import Coors back then.

Wow.

There's a way to rationalize it! It's not illegal, except for the laws that make it illegal.

My grandfather had some moonshine in a mason jar that he brewed back in ye olde days. That stuff has all the flavor of gasoline. Why can't people bootleg good stuff, like Sam Adams? Why does it always have to be pisswater and gasoline?

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:24 AM

Cause it's way harder to sneak Irish Pocheen through customs.

I'm down with Zero's movie idea tho, that'd be hilarious, the over the hill bandit fronting for a bus full of elderly folk, meh heh heh.

Basic principle of speedtrap baiting, Six... you put some guy in a rocket of a car up front, guaranteed to draw the eye and attention of every cop in the area, and he takes the speeding tickets, keeps their attention and pins em down you see - while your truck full of highly illegal merchandise just rolls on by unmolested...

Not to mention, until he draws himself some bears, since he's up front and you're a ways behind him, you can both motor along at a pretty good clip - it's the highway smuggler version of a magicians misdirection trick.

We STILL have a bunch of screwy laws on the books regarding alcohol, like the three-tier distribution system mandated in most states...
http://fermentation.typepad.com/fermentation/2007/04/the_story_of_ch.h
tml

Michigan is a bit more rational in this regard as yer allowed to homebrew something in the nature of at least up to 100 gallons for personal consumption per year.

As for smuggling stuff, having a west virgina ancestry, well.. I could tell some stories and dry counties and crazy relatives, lol.

Most of your truck based smuggling these days is in cigarettes, given the tax squeeze "the man" has put upon them in some states, and it's a pretty brisk and profitable business - what ya might call a true free market system, lol.

Since someone else posted the lyrics, figured I would explain to ya the principle behind it all.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Basic principle of speedtrap baiting, Six... you put some guy in a rocket of a car up front, guaranteed to draw the eye and attention of every cop in the area, and he takes the speeding tickets, keeps their attention and pins em down you see - while your truck full of highly illegal merchandise just rolls on by unmolested...

Just to warn you...there's a new police technique that is very effective at spotting this sort of thing. We use it in Ohio for drug interdiction. I went to a State Patrol seminar on it...those guys are scary smart.

H

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:39 PM