'Tase me Bro...I deserve it...' by Hero

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
LOL, technically Causal started making things personal at the beginning of this thread.

I felt like he verbally punched me in the face!

And there was my abortion of an attempt at humor!

Note to self: any time you want to make with the funny, use the "big grin" icon

Stupid white text on a black screen. No nuance at all. Too easy to miscommunicate.

I do like the love-in that's happening now, though!

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police
- Vote JonnyQuest/Causal, for Benevolent Co-Dictator of Earth; together, toward a brighter tomorrow!

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Don't judge a police officer until you've worn his badge and walked his beat. It's not the safest job in the world, and they have as much right to protect themselves as any of us do.
There are officers, no question, who abuse their authority, I don't dispute that. But not all of them do, and most take their job very seriously.
Til ya been there, try not to judge.

Amen to that; also ditto that sentiment for military members.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:28 PM

BADKARMA00

Totally agree about the military, Casual. Thanks for saying it!

Bad_karma

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The Job of a police officer is to enforce the mandated authority of government. It is the job of members of society to question the actions of same.

Thank God for democracy. It may be the worst form of government, but it's better than all the rest of them!

In all seriousness, though, I can agree to this; I think it is the citizen's job to keep their government accountable. But there's a difference, in my mind, between keeping the government accountable and defying the government. What I saw Mr Meyer doing was resisting arrest. That's against the law, and it is also the Citizen's duty to obey they law. Are all cops jackbooted Nazi thugs? Of course not, most of them are loyal public servants who want to protect others. Of course, some are bad apples, and we need to keep an eye out for them. But the way to do that is not to just strike a generally defiant pose to all of them; out and out defiance of authority is rarely (but not never) the right thing to do.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:43 PM

BADKARMA00

It occurs to me that an awful lot of emphasis is placed on the term 'tazer'. Tazer is actually a brand name for one of the older devices which actually shoots a small dart into the detainee, and then electric shock with low amps is delivered by pushing a button.
Other devices do not use the darts, but instead must be applied directly to the body. NOVA products are an example of this.
Does anyone know what the device actually was? Just food for thought :)

Bad_karma

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 4:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by badkarma00:
Does anyone know what the device actually was? Just food for thought :)

Bad_karma

Yes, according to the incident report it was an X26 Taser.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:33 PM

SUCCATASH

You know, I can think of another man who pissed people off by saying crazy things and refusing to shut up.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Jesus was killed by preachers and politicians. Oh, and soldiers.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 5:51 PM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
BiggusD
No snide comments to 'Hero' ?
I thought not. You apparently have the great sense (ironically) to think he's all right.

Actually I find most of Hero's posts quite humorous. Is that so wrong?

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But I rub you the wrong way. What a freakin' joke.

Different strokes...

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 6:34 PM

Badkarma - I disagree.

Originally I never had an issue with the things, but the sticking point for me was watching two Baltimore City police officers repeatedly tase some poor old lady who was trying to get their help cause she was out of insulin... and freakin *giggle* about it while they were doing so.

And for the record, she capped it, no way to be sure if it was lack of insulin, being tased or a combination of the two.

That lead me to do a little research, and my issue with it, is that the Taser is in fact a LESS Lethal, rather than NON Lethal, device and should be adjusted accordingly in the force continuum.

In concept and theory, they could save lives when the only other alternative was a bullet, sure - but they were put in the hands of the most abusive, corrupt, rabidly self-serving segment of our society without proper controls and oversight, and the chances of putting that genie back in the bottle are very, very slim.
(Gimme a sec, see if I can dig up the relevant post)

Stand By

-F

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:17 PM

Ok, found it... given how insanely long the original thread it's in is, imma reformat it a bit and repost here, bear with me.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:24 PM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
You know, I can think of another man who pissed people off by saying crazy things and refusing to shut up.

Except Jesus was supposed to be tortured and killed because in doing so he redemed mankind. So in an abstract sense he brought it on himself.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:24 PM

(CLIPPED FROM ORIGINAL THREAD)
===============================

As for the lady given the all too common "Taser Treatment"...
I refer you to the above post relative.

"Cops generally don't taser just once, no, they sit there like a cruel little schoolboy over an anthill with a magnifying glass, popping the switch over and over, often even giggling as they do it - we have some sick, sick bastards on the force, believe it."

And with each zap, the risk of death radically increases.

And then people die, and then they blame it on "Exited Delerium" although no one has yet to show me even one single case of death from ED that did not happen in police custody, most often directly following a scuffle, pepperspraying or tasering.

For crying out loud, apply a little common SENSE here, a pacemaker uses electrical shocks to do what ? regulate heart function - is it really beyond the realm of possibility that electric shocks to the chest area, especially repeated ones, could UN-regulate heart function ?

Asking me to consider a Taser "safe" (as in Non-lethal) requires that I disregard all common sense and logic, and maybe you can do that, but I can not.

It's a LESS-Lethal, not NON-Lethal, device - and used *correctly* could indeed save lives in cases where shooting someone would have been the alternative.

But can we TRUST the police to do so ?

My answer is... no - I've been on this issue quite a while, although not on this board, and without a radical revamp of police procedure in the face of resistance from the police, the FOP, police unions and other gang members and accessories to this criminal mafia, as well as both apathy from the public, and the rabid, slavering support of jackboot enthusiasts who are pro-police state mostly because they're somehow employed by it or insulated from it...

It's just not going to happen - no more than those rights taken by the Patriot Act are likely to be returned to us any time soon, in spite of promises to the contrary.

Ask any fascist just how long a "state of emergency" can last if it ensures their continued power - and while the scale is not the same, the basic principle is.

"Too much suspicion may be corrected. If you give too little power to-day, you may give more to-morrow. But the reverse of the proposition will not hold. If you give too much power to-day, you cannot retake it to-morrow: for to-morrow will never come for that purpose. If you have the fate of other nations, you will never see it. It is easier to supply deficiencies of power than to take back excess of power. This no man can deny."
-Patrick Henry

It would be far, FAR easier to remove the Taser from their use, than try to make them behave like human beings with it, recall we still have a freakin federal oversight task force HERE trying to make the Detroit police act like something other than rabid animals, and not makin not one whit of headway in that respect - putting the leash back in is gonna require at least a generation or two, IF it can be done at all.

As far as trusting a police report ?
You have GOT to be kidding me!
That's like trusting Enron to investigate their own accounting, innit ?

Turn it around - if the police caught the most notorious sleazebag in your neighborhood red-handed dealing crack, and HE got to write the incident report, would you take HIS word for it ?

I am damned glad I do not suffer under the misperception that the police are always right, or that they're somehow more noble, trustworthy, or honest than the rest of us - dude, they're PEOPLE, and people lie, cheat and steal, it's just a matter of degree.

To be brutally frank about it, no... you're NOT gonna get em to behave with a Taser in hand, we (collectively) gave em a taste of that power, that instant gratification of knowing that even if it WAS a bullshit arrest, they got their licks in, then turned a blind eye to it's use as an entertainment or punishment device (while shouting down folks like me) until it became absolutely unignorable, and now you think they're just gonna say "Oops, sorry" and behave themselves ? - in your dreams, people.

At this point you'd have a better chance of getting a 3yr old to give you back an icecream cone after he's had a couple bites, than getting the police to not abuse the Taser.

Human nature has defeated us in this, and until the core corruption that causes such abuses is addressed, the use of that device needs to be forbidden them (Bad, BAD policeman, no Taser for you till you can behave!) or at the very, very least *highly* regulated and restricted, and fully accounted for in much the same fashion that firing the service weapon is.

Remember folks, to ME, a cop is just a thug with a gun and a bunch of other toys, who has some small amount of legal authority *IF* someone is breaking the law or endangering someone else - and they're every bit as capable of abuse or criminal behavior as the next guy, only more so because they're far less likely to be taken to account for it.

No, that's not a neutral perspective, it's entirely biased in part due to long experience with one of the most corrupt police forces in existance (the BCPD) and a keen understanding of the darker parts of human nature and psychology - but you know what folks ?

I think we *NEED* that perspective in these discussions, as it shows up things that would otherwise be completely missed.

I know I am layin in harsh with this one, but I think someone HAS to.

Or it'll just get worse.
============================
(CLIPPED POST ENDS)

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 7:55 PM

Yeah, I remember this post. This is another argument where you strain logic beyond all reason by claiming that the taser is too dangerous because of deaths that result in custody. You're problem then as now is that you arrive at this conclusion by completely ignoring the fact that people are far more likely to die as a result of being physically restrained by police then they are by being tasered, and therefore the use of the taser saves lives by reducing the force needed to physically restrain the detainee.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 8:37 PM

And this is where you again miss the entire point.
By intention and design, since this is the sixth time I have explained it in detail to you.

Firstoff, Police are PEOPLE, not robots, and every bit as susceptible to misbehavior as you or me, only moreso since they are, historically, less likely to have to answer for it, and even when they are, given much lighter sentencing.

With that in mind, a very strict accounting of each and every time a Taser is fired needs to be initiated, with a total counter like a cars odometer, rather than one reset after every shift, because those have been rolled back or reset by officers wishing to cover up misuses.

That would also require a more secure and better updated inventory and tracking of taser units, bringing thier inventory control up to the same level as service weapons - something which I see as a good thing, from both a security and efficiency perspective, logically they could even use the same system, simply adding the taser and counter reading into the same database used to track and inventory service weapons by serial number.

Also a civilian review board from the policed community should be an attending and contributing member of any review of police use of force, be it firearm, taser, or other, within that community.

We're paying a pretty extreme amount of tax money for that policing, the community deserves a say in whether they believe they are being protected or victimized.

As for the taser itself, contrary to your continual and deliberate misperceptions, I have repeatedly stated that it can save lives when used in situations where the only other alternative is a bullet - but that is where it needs to be on the force continuum, JUST below the service weapon.

It is in part due to the misrepresentation of the taser as a NON-Lethal device, that has lead to it's misuse and abuse as a compliance or instant-gratification "street justice" device by law enforcement, something that has become so commonplace that it's now a universally acknowledged problem.

By properly reclassifying it as a LESS-Lethal device and placing it appropriately on the force continuum, with the needed level of accountability, you remove the temptation and incentive for most officers to hand out a zapping to someone just because they could get away with it.

You also install some measure of legal justification and protection for the officers in question when it's use WAS warranted by being able to point out in a courtroom that the next step up or alternative would have been lethal force.

This also insulates the department somewhat from taser-death lawsuits, because the chance of it being lethal is acknowledged, but substantively less than a gunshot wound which is again, the alternative to the taser when it is placed properly in the force continuum.

That's not a lot to ask, and it should have been done that way in the first place.

Part of my derision for the force is that they act like a criminal mafia instead of law enforcement professionals, something we've allowed for far too long as it is.

I make not like them, I may find them and especially their conduct despicable, but what I WANT is for them to DO THEIR JOB, and do it with a minumum of excess, waste and stupidity.

And if that's asking too much of them, perhaps we should consider the free market, and maybe outsourcing to more professional people, like the crips or the bloods....

This is explaination number six, if you don't get where I am coming from this time around, imma start calling it for deliberate in the future.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 9:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
The effect may wear off, the memory lingers.

Oh dear sweet lord. I keep telling everyone that the internet needs a font dedicated specifically for sarcasm, but does anybody listen?

The kid was tasered because he asked John Kerry about his membership in an organization rumored to be bringing about an Orwellian One World Nightmare Super - State where they drink the blood of puppies and dump breakfast cereal into bonfires as a sacrifice to heathen gods, and so he got the just punishment that his crime of embarrassing a public official merits. I would have set loose the rabid attack penguins with their beaks of a thousand cuts attack, but then I'm a neo-conservative, and yes I have to drink heavily and ingest copious quantities of prescription sleep aids simply to take a nap, so great is my secret shame.

Is there enough hyperbole in that paragraph to get my point across? No, the kid didn't deserve what happened, even though we all laughed(you didn't? Bullshit). The Youtube video set to "Can't Touch This" was my personal fav. Yes, I do have some difficulty feeling sorry for the prick, and not just because he walked away from the event almost unharmed. He should have stood outside the auditorium with a megaphone like all the other dick-heads that expend enormous amounts of energy on losing endeavors.

He did deserve to have the mic yanked from him by someone will a few cojones, or even better have the honorable - snicker - Senator explain just what the Frat Boys at Ivy League Mental Indoctrination Centers do in their Secret Lairs of Mischief and Mayhem.

\not a neo-con in case I haven't been clear enough

I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:

Thank God for democracy. It may be the worst form of government, but it's better than all the rest of them!

In all seriousness, though, I can agree to this; I think it is the citizen's job to keep their government accountable. But there's a difference, in my mind, between keeping the government accountable and defying the government.

"We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union....." If you're an American of age, then you ARE the ultimate form of government in this country, and those chosen to run things SERVE the people, who are supposed to have better things to do now that they don't have to worry about the day-to-day hassles of the management of civilization. You can't defy someone that is supposed to be your servant, unless they have ceased to be your servant and have instead become your master. The founding document of our country clearly spells out which is which, and yet for the past several decades increasing numbers of Americans have found themselves on the inverse side of their prescribed position - mindlessly carrying out the directives of those that should have been on the receiving of the list of the peoples wants and needs, or being crushed by them for daring to object. In the day to day management of our nation, he source document has become null and void and therefore NEITHER side need abide the terms any longer. And so it will go - they push, we dig in and shove back, and on and on.

In short, there is NO way to keep a government accountable but by the periodic use of barbaric acts of violence against those that have abused their positions of authority - defying them, one might say . Or at least that was the conclusion of Thomas Jefferson. I tend to tend to view the landscape in similar fashion.

I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:22 PM

CITIZEN

BDN:
Fair enough. Maybe I've changed? Been outta the forum a spell, maybe I just wanna walk it awhile?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 11:24 PM

BADKARMA00

You hit another nail saying police are people. They are also subject to the same fears and desires as other folks, including the fear of being assualted or killed, and the desire to go home at the end of the shift.
As to the lady your post concerned, the two in question should have been tried for the crime, since that's obviously what it was. That is not a reason to remove stun devices from the hands of police. Having been in situations where they were used, I know, for a fact, that the likelihood of injury is much less when subduing a suspect or detainee when the devices are used rather than brute force.
We as a society demand that police officers deal with a variety of situations each day, many of which can turn violent in the blink of an eye. As such, we should not be unwilling to see them have access to a tool that, when properly used, prevents rather than causes harm, whether it be injury or death.
The simple answer to the problem is to prosecute and inprison each and every such officer who misuses or abuses them.
And by the way, the same devices are available for civilian use in many states. I don't carry one, because I carry a handgun, which I am licensed to do.
When you find a bad apple, throw it out. Don't throw the barrel out with it.

Bad_karma

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 1:37 AM

LEADB

Not sure that Frem said that Tasers (stun guns) should be removed from police, just changed how it should be handled.

This is another clip from the previous thread; posted by me, general nature of 'suggestions for improvements':

Quote:
Regardless of this, I would say I'd like to see
1) Civilian review of all taser use.
2) Police tasers be colored or otherwise plainly identifiable as tasers from both front and side view as such; as much for the officer's safety as for the 'perps'.
3) Police tasers have counters which cannot be reset.
4) Improved training in de-escalation techniques. While I'm not prepared to say that it would have helped with someone prepared/planning to be arrested, I can see Frem's point that the methods used in this event might well have escalated someone who otherwise might not have gone 'over the top'.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 2:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I am damned glad I do not suffer under the misperception that the police are always right, or that they're somehow more noble, trustworthy, or honest than the rest of us - dude, they're PEOPLE, and people lie, cheat and steal, it's just a matter of degree. ...

To be brutally frank about it, no... you're NOT gonna get em to behave with a Taser in hand...

Remember folks, to ME, a cop is just a thug with a gun and a bunch of other toys, who has some small amount of legal authority *IF* someone is breaking the law or endangering someone else - and they're every bit as capable of abuse or criminal behavior as the next guy, only more so because they're far less likely to be taken to account for it.

No, that's not a neutral perspective, it's entirely biased in part due to long experience with one of the most corrupt police forces in existance (the BCPD) and a keen understanding of the darker parts of human nature and psychology...

You keeping saying cops are only human, but it actually sounds like you're saying that all cops are jack-booted Nazi thugs. So which is it? Are there some bad cops along with some good ones (like most other collections of humans)? Or are they all evil?

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 3:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

On the average, I think people are changed... and not for the better... by becoming police. I've worked with two people- a sociologist and a chemist- who joined the police force and they both changed into arrogant a-holes who spoke freely of breaking tail lights so they could hand out fixit tickets to someone they didn't "like". (The sociologist had been an extraordinarily nice guy b4.)

Take a look at the few REALLY rotten apples: the cops who steal from crime scenes, plant drugs and weapons, beat up restrained prisoners, etc. Why don't they get turned in? Because the other 90% of the police force are protecting them.

There are aspects to the job that turn ordinarily nice people into less-than-honorable people: the stress, the fact that you see the WORST of humanity day after day, and the POWER. It's like being a soldier: nobody who goes through combat comes out the same. We should expect and acknowledge that.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 4:57 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"even though we all laughed(you didn't? Bullshit)"

No, I cringed, like any normal person.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 5:12 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
No, I cringed, like any normal person.

Most normal people are sick and tired of the looney left making fools of themselves. Even those who might otherwise agree with the left are turned off by the left's tactics.

Laughing is the natural response to something like this. You must either be a humorless, depressed, or feeling nervous cause next time 'it could be you losing your cool, making a fool of yourself, and getting tased on YouTube.

H

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 5:14 AM

Frem, the point of your original post was that we should eliminate the taser from police use because we can’t trust them to use it correctly, since they're all rotten sons of bitches.

First of all, police are not all rotten sons of bitches - that’s just a fantasy held by anarchists and Liberals.

Secondly, by eliminating tasers from police use, police must return to the day when physical force is the only way to restrain an uncooperative detainee. So you use the unexpected death of detainees in custody to argue that tasers are too dangerous, but it is not tasers that are the likely cause of these deaths, it is the very physical restraint that you are promoting by arguing that use of tasers should be eliminated or reduced. In fact, in your original argument you compared tasers to firearms in their deadliness.

Of course even you eventually realize how illogical and confusing your own arguments are after you’ve thrown them around enough, so then you start arguing that taser use should be accounted for, a position I don’t necessarily disagree with, but then the original illogical argument still exists. Physical restraint is still many, many times more likely to kill someone then the use of a taser on them, but your beef continues to be with the taser, not with the use of physical restraint. So it doesn't really seem to be the death of detainees in custody that bothers you at all.

When you look at your argument as a whole, it’s not tasers you have a problem with at all, but the existence of the police. My guess is that your real motivation is a desire to impede the function of the police department as much as possible because you don’t like think they should even exists.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 5:21 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Oh goodie, a mental health lecture from 'Hero', the resident sociopath. What could possibly be next, I wonder ?

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 5:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Most normal people are sick and tired of the looney left making fools of themselves. Even those who might otherwise agree with the left are turned off by the left's tactics.

Cringing when you hear someone scream in pain is not a "tactic", it's a response. Chracterizing it as a "tactic" would only come from the fascist right-wing, who enjoy dealing out pain, fear, and vengeance because... well, they get off on it. They identify with "authority" and cling to its boots. WERE you abused as a child Hero? Did your caregivers favor smacking, yelling, and humiliation or worse- as tools to ensure "obedience"?

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 6:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Frem, the point of your original post was that we should eliminate the taser from police use because we can’t trust them to use it correctly, since they're all rotten sons of bitches.

First of all, police are not all rotten sons of bitches - that’s just a fantasy held by anarchists and Liberals.

The only cops that I ever met that I thought that I could possibly trust were actually CHP- California Highway Patrol. They haven't really had too many scandals and just watching the way they work the highway leads me to believe that they, unlike their in town brethren, don't have the "I had my ass kicked in high school everyday, but now I have the power" mentality.

Their is absolutely no way cops should have their tasers taken away. Do that and they will go back to whacking people over the head with their flashlights or nightsticks. At least this way they can get their jollies without causing real damage.

I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 6:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jarhead:
The only cops that I ever met that I thought that I could possibly trust were actually CHP- California Highway Patrol. They haven't really had too many scandals and just watching the way they work the highway leads me to believe that they, unlike their in town brethren, don't have the "I had my ass kicked in high school everyday, but now I have the power" mentality.

I don’t know what kinds of police officers you frequent, but almost all the one’s I know are far more respectful and considerate by a huge margin then the average person. However, I do agree that eliminating or overly restricting the use of tasers will do nothing but cause a greater use of batons, which generally result in far more damage then a taser.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 7:05 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
No, I cringed, like any normal person.

Most normal people are sick and tired of the looney left making fools of themselves. Even those who might otherwise agree with the left are turned off by the left's tactics.

Laughing is the natural response to something like this. You must either be a humorless, depressed, or feeling nervous cause next time 'it could be you losing your cool, making a fool of yourself, and getting tased on YouTube.

H

Actually I winced but then I don't watch things like "America's home videos" either. Think it could be an empathy thing.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 8:10 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Oh goodie, a mental health lecture from 'Hero', the resident sociopath. What could possibly be next, I wonder ?

The answer is obvious...cooking tips!

Heroic Lasagna

Brown 1/2 Pound Sweet Italian Sausage, 1/2 Pound Ground Beef (85% lean or better), add salt, pepper, Emeril's Spice (must say "BAM"), a splash of olive oil, splash of BBQ sauce, red pepper, dash of garlic, 1 jar Prego Sausage and Mushroom Tomatto Sauce and let simmer in sauce pan.

Soak Lasgana noodles in hot tap water for ten minutes. Then place in 4x4 pan layer of noodles, sauce mixture, layer of shredded cheese (4 cheese Italian blend), noodles, most of rest of sauce, another cheesey layer, noodles, sauce (by now the sauce is gone run water in pan to make thin watery sauce and dribble over top of to noodle layer), final layer of cheese.

Cover with foil, cook 1.5 house in 325 degree oven.

Serve with buttery bread, salad, and Diet Dr. Pepper (over ice).

Your hot italian girlfriend will think your amazing when you feed her this. I speak from experiance.

H

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 8:39 AM

LEADB

Hero cooking tips. Ok -THAT- I laughed at.

For tally sake:
1) I didn't laugh at the original video showing Meyer tased (but confess I found the monty python and the holy grail take off amusing).
2) I don't consider all cops fiends; and in general have found them a respectable lot.

So, throw that into the stats master and see what happens.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:01 AM

Again somehow you refuse to grasp the concept.

In the hands of the police
WITH THE CURRENT "no questions asked" POLICY.
AT THIS TIME.

I am opposed.

IF they were to enact the very reasonable, logical and rational policies I suggested here, which have been suggested on multiple other fronts, by many other collectives, even pro-police ones, because they're just common sense...

THEN

I would not continue to BE opposed.

Can I possibly make it any clearer than that ?
What part of this do you not comprehend ?

-Frem

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:24 AM

Re: Rotten Apples Anology.

You know why this doesn't fly with the police ?

Because IF true, if it was just a few rotten apples, then the remaining police who are decent folk would go ballistic at having their reputation and profession sullied and run those creepers out of town on the rail, hell they'd be first in line to testify against them!

Is that what happens ?
No.

They go all tribal and throw down their "thin blue line" between the populace they theoretically serve, refusing to testify, running to the FOP and related orgs to harrass and intimidate witnesses, get friendly judges, lean on the prosecutor, bend a few politicians, even tamper with the juries - that is not the behavior of a few rotten apples, that is the behavior of a criminal mafia.

Those few very rotten apples depend wholly on the blind eye and lack of action on behalf of the slightly rotten apples in order to be the problem that they are - the corruption by it's nature has spread throughout the barrel itself.

Again, they are PEOPLE, and people given large amounts of power, few restrictions, and little if any oversight, human nature being what it is, are going to behave this way if they have the ability and temptation to do so.

And so, you remove the ability and temptation, or at least mediate it with the threat of appropriate consequences... taser some guy for getting verbally sharp with you over a parking ticket ?

Counter reading indicts you, partner testifies AGAINST you, cruiser-cmaera footage hangs you, and you go to JAIL, with an additional 50% added to your sentencing because you, unlike joe public, swore an oath to uphold the law before you maliciously violated it.

That would put a stop to that crap real fast.

I will also cite police reaction to being filmed - many patrol cruisers now mount an onboard camera, not only to prevent misconduct (they'd never *admit* to that being part of the purpose, no.. ) but also to document the case evidence and build a stronger case when the officer is in the right.

Now, when john q public points a camera at police activity, how do they react ?

If the officer is in the right, such video documentation can only HELP the case, providing additional evidence and a solid witness in the guy behind the camera - so they should welcome the additional support.

But the truth of it is, when the cameras come out, generally the police become angry and aggressive, often arresting or initiating/threatening violence or arrest at the person with it - again, that is not the behavior of law enforcement professionals, that is the behavior of a criminal mafia.

The PROPER response to someone filming an 'incident' is "Please stand clear of the situation for your own safety, sir." and then afterwords taking their name and address as a possible witness, while *requesting* politely, a copy of the tape for the departments use.
(As it is evidence, if they are disagreeable, the court can subpeano a copy if needs be, by the book, instead of attempting to seize it illegally on the spot.)

No, the few bad apples anology doesn't fly, but by establishing proper oversight, accountability and procedures, the inevitable corruption that is part of human nature can be limited both in it's scope and effect.

We've let it ride for a long time, causing unacceptable behavior to become an entrenched problem and even if procedure is changed, it'll take a generation to weed that garden.

But it is a start.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:35 AM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Now, when john q public points a camera at police activity, how do they react ?

If the officer is in the right, such video documentation can only HELP the case, providing additional evidence and a solid witness in the guy behind the camera - so they should welcome the additional support.

But the truth of it is, when the cameras come out, generally the police become angry and aggressive, often arresting or initiating/threatening violence or arrest at the person with it - again, that is not the behavior of law enforcement professionals, that is the behavior of a criminal mafia.

Perhaps because they remember Rodney King? Rodney King leads the cops on a high-speed chase, resists arrest, attempts to take a gun from the cops and charges at them, the cops resort to force to subdue him. Civilian videotapes the cops beating King up, most people never hear about the lead-up all they hear about is "COPS BEATING UP BLACK PERSON ON VIDEO"*. Result: cops end up getting crucified because of a guy with a camera who only caught the END of the story.

If that happened to you wouldn't you be a little pissy about cameras? What's to keep that guy with the camera from editing out all but the bad parts and posting it on YouTube? Nothing. What's to keep you from being screwed by someone with a cell-phone cam and a grudge? Nothing.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:42 AM

Tasering is not torture- it doesn't last long enough.
Peeps get strange they should be tasered. Why, just yesterday my so got disrespectful, and I tased him. Today he's brimming with respect, and docs figure his left cheek will be able to smile again soon.

You anti-torture folk should watch American Idol, and find out what real terror is!

No wuss Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:

If that happened to you wouldn't you be a little pissy about cameras?

Cameras don't edit footage; people edit footage.

Say no to camera control Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:14 AM

Turn it around.

What keeps the cops from editing their footage to show the situation in their favo.. oh, wait, they do that ALL the time....

There's no perfect solution, once you throw human beings in the mix - but any check on rampant police misbehavior is a satisfactory beginning in my book.

-F

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:17 AM

As usual, I'm with ya, Frem.

Cops are just people, and a third of people suck Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:24 AM

File under good news/bad news.

Bad news, you got guys who act like this.
Good news, a LOT of departments have started a long-overdue housecleaning.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/625943,finnigan102907.article
http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/Chicago.Police.corruption.2.333907.h
tml

Maybe the tide is turning, I stand by the revamp of procedure necessary to prevent taser abuse, but cleaning out the more rotten apples in the barrel does give me some hope that the rest can be salvaged.

It can be done, but the doin of it is gonna be a right bitch, legally and financially.

-F

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:31 AM

Maybe we can get Hero to do pro-boner work...?

The bad Chrisisall

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 10:42 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Perhaps because they remember Rodney King? Rodney King leads the cops on a high-speed chase, resists arrest, attempts to take a gun from the cops and charges at them, the cops resort to force to subdue him."

Maybe that's why you need those squad-car video cams. To get the whole story on tape.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 11:30 AM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Maybe that's why you need those squad-car video cams. To get the whole story on tape.

Guess which tape will be played on the nightly news though.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 12:07 PM

FLETCH2

You give thw squad cars much better cameras. On TV he with the best footage wins.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 1:20 PM

LEADB

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Maybe that's why you need those squad-car video cams. To get the whole story on tape.

Guess which tape will be played on the nightly news though.

If both tapes arrive roughly at the same time, my bet is on the police footage; they risk an extreme lawsuit otherwise. Otherwise, if one is in an hour before broadcast, and the other less so (ball park), then the one in first.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 3:34 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

BTW I know that a big deal has been made over the 'risk' of being a cop and why we should cut them some slack 'cause of all the 'danger' they face.

Doing some checking I found there were http://stats.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_revised05.htm 110 'police officer' deaths out of approximately 864,000 (0.01%) http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/police/index.html, while there were 47 'underground miner' deaths out of less than 19,000 (0.25 %).

I really think those underground miners deserve to react irrationally at times, due to the severe risk they face on the job.

***************************************************************
Cops are clearly wusses.

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 3:57 PM

Think that's bad ?

Pull the stats for cab drivers and post em here.
Please.

Give folk a better understanding of some things.

-F

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 4:00 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Farming has THE highest fatality RATE, mining a close second, and 'transportation' after that, but cab drivers weren't a searchable category.

And I swear the BLS/ OSHA go out of their way to make the figures hard to come by.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Thursday, November 1, 2007 4:33 PM