Do. Your. Homework. by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Do. Your. Homework.

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Thursday, November 22, 2007 13:17
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VIEWED: 1244
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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:32 AM

Yeah, I know Wiki is no longer quite as effective as a neutral information source thanks to meddling from many political directions (not just two, as it is international in nature), but still it's an effective base to start with.

Having said that, I offer the following without comment, cause if I need to spell it out for ya it's not worth the trouble to bother.
================================

1798

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917

1918

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition_Act_of_1918

1940

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Registration_Act

1950

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarran_Internal_Security_Act

1954

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954

2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_act

2002

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeland_Security_Act

2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Patriot_Act

2007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HR_1955

=====================================
-F

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:10 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
1798
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

Ya know, my husband is actually a descendant of the Adams family, sharing a common grandfather or some such with John Adams. So when my daughter was born, I did some genealogy research and read up on the Adamses. (Since I am an immigrant, I never had a lot of American history in school.)

Anyway, I was mortified to learn of the A&S acts. John Adams, not a bragging point. They are all sons of bitches, these pricks who get statues made of them (as Mal once pointed out).

Having said that, I do need to be spoonfed Frem. What's wrong with these Wiki articles? Not comprehensive but it seems to be delivering the basics? I mean, sure it has a definite mainstream slant, but at least they point out that there is an alternative view, which is more than the Dept of Homeland Security would do.

Anyway, talk to me Frem.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:17 PM

LEADB

Crud. I've already written my Senators about HR1955; I suppose I could write again. Once again the Democrats seem to want to 'out daddy' the republicans.

CTS: I believe the point is, that HR1955 has not yet passed into law. If you in general find this offensive, you might write to various Senators, etc. to express opinions.

I believe that the 'reservations' that Frem has with Wiki is just it is no longer as accurate at it might have been due to all the fiddling, but he believes the items are still 'good enough' to serve the purpose of this discussion.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 4:50 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello all,

If you will pardon my language...

HR_1955 scares the shit right out of me and makes me madder than hell.

The fact that it passed the House by such a wide margin is even scarier and more enraging.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, November 21, 2007 4:58 PM

LEADB

Yeh. I knew it had passed the house; but ... I didn't realize that nearly everyone was 'on board.'
Very scary.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I guess it wasn't so obvious as I thought.

From a historical perspective, 10-20-30 and more years later, how are these ideas viewed ?

Why ?

This is a case of people NOT learning from the mistakes of history.

What's worse, and I don't mean to be directly partisan about it, but take a good long look at the folks who have introduced and pushed this crap every single time.

It's one single long unbroken chain leading up to this eras Neocons, but leading all the way back through Leo Strauss and back if you wannna take it that far to Plato and his theories of a protected elite in The Republic.

And THESE people, are far greater enemies of liberty than any surface political affiliation they hold at the time - and it gets downright scary when you start tracing family lines through that mess as well.

Do some research, and you'll see what I mean when I say PN ain't half as crazy as folks take him for.

Not calling conspiracy on it, it's just a matter of wealthy empowered elites standing a pretty damn good chance of remaining so for generations and passing certain "values" down to their offspring, which has left us with the abject moron we currently have as "the decider" - who's thoughts and policies really aren't all that far removed from that monster Lincoln, or that psycho Adams... or any other of these nutters, historically.

THIS time we'd best learn it, and remember, or 15-30 years from now, it'll happen AGAIN, provided we survive it this time, and it's like a decaying orbit in that each cycle of this shit brings us that much closer to the final brink.

Clear enough ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 5:23 AM

LEADB

Not disagreeing mind you...
'It's one single long unbroken chain leading up to this eras Neocons, but leading all the way back through Leo Strauss and back if you wannna take it that far to Plato and his theories of a protected elite in The Republic.' While that may be, what appalls me is only 6 -count 'em- SIX! voted against this thing. If it was just the current crop of Neo-cons buying into this with 'just enough' cross over votes to pass it, I'd merely be aggravated and hope the senate would block it. But this is just... appalling. And I doubt the Senate has any more backbone.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 7:21 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:
1798
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
Ya know, my husband is actually a descendant of the Adams family, sharing a common grandfather or some such with John Adams.

Anyway, I was mortified to learn of the A&S acts. John Adams, not a bragging point.

While I agree the A&S acts were a bad thing, I hate to see historians use it to portray Adams as a villain. Adams was a great man who carried water for many of our founding fathers. I think David McCullough's book on Adams puts the A&S acts in the proper perspective and on balance shows that Adams was a good man. I would be proud to be related to Adams.
http://www.amazon.com/John-Adams-David-McCullough/dp/0743223136/ref=pd
_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195750729&sr=8-1

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:28 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Heard Tom Hartman talking about the same bill the other day, and complaining about it for the same reasons. I think he was talking about how it makes it easy to label vandalism of corporate property or even speech that might hurt corporate profits an act of terrorism.

I doubt this will pass in the Senate, but there are very few politicians that have been given my limited trust which have made good on it. Jesus, 6 dissenting voices? There goes a lot of names that I thought were with the "good guys".

Corporatism trumps all I guess, in a system where corporations determine who gets elected.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:39 AM

CITIZEN

Tak: The great thing about your people Dib is that, most of them don't notice. All they see is another faceless corporate venture! Not a plan for world conquest!
Dib: Wait, is there really a difference?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:48 AM

FLETCH2

I noticed that Ron missed the vote and that Denis voted against it.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Of course it's appalling, that's the whole point, people have forgotten the lessons of history, constituents and politicos alike.

On top of that, as mentioned in the big tent thread, the stupidity of joining a voting bloc removes any threat you may have once had to hold against them as a constituent.

I see box four looming closer every day.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:02 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Umm, I fail to see how you can paint Adams as anything else - given his deeds, he might have talked a good game, most of the founding fathers did, but the Federalists... it was JUST talk, and a great part of them scoffing at the need for certain protections within the US Constitution that the Anti-Federalists forced concessions on in order to support it, was their intent, as shown by their actions, to immediately use those loopholes to subvert it.

Historically, the Anti-Federalists, specifically Patrick Henry, were dead-bang-on about every single abuse that was going to happen, to the point of even pointing out the how and why.

Actions speak louder than words, and the Federalists, Adams particularly, wanted to be kings, and they meant to have it from the very start.

-Frem
"We have been told of phantoms..."

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 9:24 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

Yeah, Adams was instrumental in the Revolution, and so rightfully deserves to have his name among the other founding fathers, but he sounds like he was just the other side of the same coin they were replacing. He had a problem with the fact that rich aristocrats were being taxed without representation, he didn't seem to have a problem with elites running the show, or seem to have any desire to bring the people into a truly democratic process.(disclaimer...this is my sense of him from past things I've read...didn't look this all back up to verify my take)

He put his neck on the line for revoultion, but he was not the hero of our American system in the way that Thomas Jefferson was.

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Thursday, November 22, 2007 1:17 PM

KIRKULES

I think Adams would have agreed with your conclusions about Jefferson, but I think Jefferson's opinion of Adams was more favorable than your own. They coresponded throughout most of their adult life's and both died on on the same day(July 4). Adams on his death bed proclaimed "Thomas Jefferson survives" not knowing that Jefferson had died hours earlier.

Jefferson is one of my personal heroes, but Adams doesn't get the credit he's due in modern history.

"Rock Chalk, Jayhawk, KU"

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