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failing to inform them of what might very well happen if they do

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
I actually didn't have sex until I fell in love- unfortunately she only 'liked' me *snif*.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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failing to inform them of what might very well happen if they do

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I think I'm the one here who's advocating telling kids what's up. You're the one advocating scaring them.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Kissed my first girl at five. Always had more fun with girls than boys.
Actually had first sex a twenty, though, you know- the 'love' thing...*makes goopy face*

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I wasn’t much of a romantic in my early years.

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It’s safe to say that you and rue have spent so much time trying to put words in my mouth here that you have no clue what I advocate.

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you have no clue what I advocate

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benefits of abstinence-only sexual education
straw man that substitutes for the Abstinence-only agenda
limiting sexual activity to marriage only
abstinent-only programs are directed at children and young people, not adults
young people should avoid sex until they are ready, which in this case is .. marriage

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Allow children to do whatever they want without supervision
children should be allowed to have sex at will without parental consideration
the only solution is to let children screw unabatedly without concern for their emotional or physical well-being
15 year old girls should screw all they want, because they can always kill or give away the pregnancies

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
my point is that sex is natural, like eating. Do it wrong, and you'll get fat...paint it as sinful and you attach unnecessary emotional stress onto what's gonna happen sooner or later anyway.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
Now that I have kids, I know what I definitely want to teach them re sex. Wait. It IS special. Save it for someone with whom you want to share ALL of yourself--emotional, intellectual, spiritual, in addition to physical--and make sure that person wants to share it with you. You can have as much mindless, empty sex by yourself. But when you have sex with another person, make sure that person is going to be around for a while.

OK, getting off the soapbox now.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
So Finn, Rue quoted what appears to be your stance on the issue (for abstinence only). Is that an accurate picture? If not, can you clarify?

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So Finn, Rue quoted what appears to be your stance on the issue (for abstinence only). Is that an accurate picture? If not, can you clarify?- Signy
No picture painted by rue can be accurate. - Finn

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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So Finn, Rue quoted what appears to be your stance on the issue (for abstinence only). Is that an accurate picture? If not, can you clarify?- Signy
No picture painted by rue can be accurate. - Finn

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And are you afraid to tell us all what your view IS? Or.... what?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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So Finn, Rue quoted what appears to be your stance on the issue (for abstinence only). Is that an accurate picture? If not, can you clarify?- Signy
No picture painted by rue can be accurate. - Finn

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And are you afraid to tell us all what your view IS? Or.... what?

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I don’t think I have been secretive about what my views are. I’ve been talking about them all through this thread. If you can’t have a conversation with someone without putting words in their mouth, then I can’t do anything about that, but I don’t have to participate. When you decide you’d like to know what I think instead of the thoughts you want to attribute to me, then my posts will still be here for you to read.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm not clear on your exact position myself, Finn. I'm sure you said what you meant, but I can't quite tell what you meant from what you said.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm not clear on your exact position myself, Finn. I'm sure you said what you meant, but I can't quite tell what you meant from what you said.

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I don’t want my children making irresponsible decisions with regard to sex, what is there to know? If you have a specific question I’ll try answer it.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
My mother was an extraordinary women, who at a very young age naively bought in the free-love bullshit of the 60s. She did a remarkable job raising me and my various siblings. She also graduated with a Nursing degree with a 4.0 GPA at 34. She was an exceptional woman, who could have done far better with her life, had it not been for her experimentation with sex at such a young age.

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Ever notice how poverty and crime is rampant among African-American and Hispanic communities? A large part of it has to do with children having children they can’t afford to take care of. In fact, over 80% of teen pregnancies (ages 15-19) are from African-Americana and Hispanic girls.

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"Many people would love to go back and do things differently knowing what they know now, but who's to say that we wouldn't do twice as bad the second time around? Who is to say that if we had that oppurtunity we might not hesitate on something and miss out on the best thing that could have ever happened to us in either timeline?"

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I don’t want my children making irresponsible decisions with regard to sex, what is there to know? If you have a specific question I’ll try answer it.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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"Many people would love to go back and do things differently knowing what they know now, but who's to say that we wouldn't do twice as bad the second time around? Who is to say that if we had that oppurtunity we might not hesitate on something and miss out on the best thing that could have ever happened to us in either timeline?"

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Hello,

I may be about to reveal my geekiness, but there was a GREAT episode of TNG that dealt with this question in what I considered to be a very good way.

Captain Picard was dying from a heart attack. The reason he was dying was that his heart was a synthetic replacement that was particularly susceptible to an energy discharge he'd encountered.

As he ascended to the afterlife, he met an entity who claimed to be God. This entity explained that he was dying and why. Picard recalled that if he had not lived as an impetuous and brash youth, he would never have gotten into a barfight where his original heart was damaged. Thus, he'd still have his original heart. And so, he would still be alive.

The entity gave him the ability to go back and change his behavior for the few days surrounding the bar fight. He went back and did indeed change his behavior. In the process of making the 'right' decisions, he alienated friends and established himself as a guy who never took any chances.

Restored to the present timeline, he found himself no longer a Captain, but an unassuming junior officer who had never achieved anything spectacular in his life. Finding this banal existence more painful than death, he begged to undo his changes.

So he went back and had his fight, and got stabbed through the heart.

And he laughed in happiness, knowing that everything would unfold exactly as it should... and that he would be the man he wanted to be.

I really liked that episode a lot. The only thing that would have made it more perfect is if Picard actually died at the end.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yes, I realize that you’re intent upon ignoring the issue because you don’t like religious type, but the fact remains that abstinent-only programs are directed at children and young people, not adults.

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There are precious few abstinence-only programs directed at unmarried 30-something men and women. The fact remains that the whole idea behind the abstinence only program is that young people should avoid sex until they are ready, which in this case is defined as marriage.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I'm sure if you can't get your point across with reason, attacking me personally will make up for that. Or not, whatever.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I get what you're saying, what I don't get is how me saying "they want to stop sex before marriage" is a strawman, but you saying "they want to stop sex before marriage" isn't.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not attacking. But it’s just like you insisting that the Bible isn’t an historical text, because Christian use it as a religious text. Same kind of thing, I think.

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Anytime a simpler argument is substituted for a more correct, but complicated, one, it is a straw man.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Besides.... maybe if you asked her, after having raised you from birth, your mother wouldn't have changed a thing for the world.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Surly I have, and I don't think that our two points are mere coincidence. People with money tend to have less kids. I'd imagine that there are very many psychological and social reasons for this that I've never even contemplated or discussed with anyone else. It would probably make a great thread to discuss.

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Originally posted by citizen:
It is an Ad Hominem attack. You're not going after my argument, you're going after me. That's what an Ad Hominem means. If I'm just basing it on a preconceived Bias as you suggest, my position should be easy enough to refute, so you shouldn't need to go after my preconceived anti-Christian bias. I could easily say you're just a pro-Christian; I don't because it would only harm my own position. You want to carry down this tired road of "don't listen to him, he's just and anti-X" go ahead; it only harms your position, not mine.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I get what you're saying, what I don't get is how me saying "they want to stop sex before marriage" is a strawman, but you saying "they want to stop sex before marriage" isn't.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not attacking you, at all. Calling a statement you made a straw man, whether true or not (and it is true) is not in any conceivable way attacking you personally.

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Originally posted by citizen:
I think we both know that, that is not what I was calling an attack. Ironically though it is a strawman on your part, because you're misrepresenting what I was saying. I very clearly stated that you trying to paint me as 'Anti-Religious', going after me rather than my argument was what formed the Ad Hominem.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not attacking you, at all.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’m not attacking you, at all.

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To be fair Finn, you do do the "That's what I'd expect, coming from a ****** " quite a bit. It's never occurred to me to call you a Neo-Con or a 'Repuglican', because frankly, your views are too complicated and varied to be pigeonholed so simply. But you do tend to throw out anti-religious and anti-lefty labels rather, er, liberally.

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Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
isn't balance a large part of martial arts?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I do evaluate people’s arguments based on my impression of their past positions, and that often leads to labeling positions a certain way.

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For others, the labels are less easily applied but they still help to categorize opinions so that they can be discussed.

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“Repuglican” is a derogatory spelling of Republican, and that probably would be an ad hominem, because it's designed to insult a person or demean a position.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Which is just what I'd expect from an know-nothing reactionary.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

I really like your point about labels getting in the way of discussion.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Interestingly, this was on cnn

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
First of all that’s not what I said. What I actually said, was “According to this study if you start having sex at a young age, which is what the abstinence-only crowd is trying to prevent …” In other words, what the Abstinence Only crowd is actually trying to do is prevent young people from having sex at a young age. Using marriage as a solution to this is simply a convenience that meets the religious opinions of many in this group and it has been used to deal with this vary issue for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. You then insist up on this simplified argument as a substitute (a straw man) that the Abstinence Only crowd wants to stop people from having sex before marriage, but that’s an oversimplification, because the Abstinence Only Programs are not directed at unmarried adults, just unmarried young people.

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
That’s not an ad hominem either. It’s an observation. Once again, I’m still not attack you personally; it’s your argument I’m talking about.

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You may not agree with it, but it’s one I’ve noted on several occasions.

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Another thing I’ve noted on several occasions is that when you don’t like the way someone interprets your position, you often falsely accuse them of ad hominem, perhaps as a Red Herring.

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Yes, I do. I do evaluate people’s arguments based on my impression of their past positions, and that often leads to labeling positions a certain way.

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Originally posted by citizen:
to be honest I really could not care less about what you think of me personally.

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