Gagged by the Government by AnthonyT

Yeah, that's pretty remarkable. The dude seems like kind of a dumbass, but it shouldn't be a crime to be a dumbass. And it's not, because he won't be charged, but still.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Friday, December 7, 2007 7:46 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Is there any way for a citizen to collect reparations of some kind for being arrested in violation of his rights?

Hero? Do you know?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 7, 2007 8:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Is there any way for a citizen to collect reparations of some kind for being arrested in violation of his rights?

Hero? Do you know?

I’m sure Hero could shed more light on this however, one could sue for false arrest, but I doubt it would work in this case. A false arrest is one in which an officer arrests or imprisons a person without legal authority. If there was reason to believe that this person was making a threat, and based on the stupid comments he was making that reason would seem quite possible, then a false arrest suit might be very difficult to win.

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Friday, December 7, 2007 9:05 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

The thing is, I don't think that this man could be reasonably construed to have been making a threat.

I mean, if some skinhead said, "Hitler had the right idea, shoving Jews into ovens wholesale. He should get a commendation," that would be pretty comperable to what this teacher said.

Can they arrest you for that?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, December 7, 2007 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

The thing is, I don't think that this man could be reasonably construed to have been making a threat.

I mean, if some skinhead said, "Hitler had the right idea, shoving Jews into ovens wholesale. He should get a commendation," that would be pretty comperable to what this teacher said.

Can they arrest you for that?

If you're a Jew, it might ring something completely different, depending on the context.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 5:29 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I can't believe the law is subjective. If it is, then it's a bad law.

Unless someone says, "I am going to go find a Jew and shove him into an oven," then it's not a threat. It should have to be a direct threat to be illegal.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 5:37 AM

Okay, but that’s not really indicative of reality. People who want to harm you, generally do not specify their threats up front in clear language. To try to constrain the law to that kind of language, would essentially make it useless as far as protecting those being threatened.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 5:58 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

If you don't limit arrests to direct threats, then you're essentially in an interpretive, "He gave me the evil eye" kind of situation.

I am allowed to think that Jews should all be dead. I'm allowed to think that people who kill Jews are heroes. What I am not allowed to do is to say I'm going to kill a Jew.

Otherwise the law is infringing on free speech, restricting the expression of my opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:05 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Otherwise the law is infringing on free speech, restricting the expression of my opinion.

Anthony, I agree we should have free speech, but I'm also worried about the language in YOUR posts here- it could easily be spun the TOTALLY wrong way...
"See? Right here, he said that he wanted to..."

Just sayin' Chrisisall

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

If you don't limit arrests to direct threats, then you're essentially in an interpretive, "He gave me the evil eye" kind of situation.

Yes, that’s true. It’s a balancing act. But if you don’t allow that most, if not almost all, threats are subjective based on the context, the law might become very blind to the pleas of people for help.

I remember a Law and Order in which a woman called the police several times insisting that she was being threatened online, but when the threats were evaluated they weren’t found to be explicit enough or threatening enough or something. Eventually the police started regarding her as a little unstable and sent her home. The next day she’s killed by, as it turns out, the guy who was sending her the threatening emails. It was a compelling story and there was no easy way to view one side as right and one side as wrong. It just illustrated how the law becomes very difficult to apply in subjective area and how criminals can use this to their advantage.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:44 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Well, when we start arresting people for what they 'might' mean or 'might' be saying, we open a much bigger can of worms with much greater consequences than any direct threat could ever pose, in my opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 6:50 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

My wife just said something hilarious, and I thought to share:

"The law should never be an interpretive dance."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

My wife just said something hilarious, and I thought to share:

"The law should never be an interpretive dance."

Well the law has always been interpreted one way or another.

I’m not against your ideal of preserving liberty in what the law should be. But when the battered wife comes to the law and begs for help, we need to realize that turning her away because inflexible ideals don’t allow the law to act to save her, doesn’t do much for her liberty. Allowing the law to be abused so that there is a systemic failure is one thing. I certainly don’t think that we need to “start arresting people for what they 'might' mean or 'might' be saying,” as you put it; in the same way that I don’t think we need to be convicted people for “hate crimes.” But I also don’t think that we need to ignore a threat simply because it’s not conveniently stated to incriminate the issuer of said threat. Now where the balance is struck is never going to be an easy thing. Do you not think we can find an interpretation that protects both our Liberty and provide some degree of defense for those that have a legitimate reason to feel threatened?

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 11:42 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Unfortunately, laws have to be written with as little wiggle room as possible, else they'll be abused. When you ban 'Assault Weapons' (*shiver*) you have to define exactly what an Assault Weapon is. If you make threats against someone's life illegal, you should have to explicitly define what constitutes a threat.

And no, I don't feel that laws should be creatively re-interpreted to suit the needs of the moment. When they are, things like this arrest occur. If someone doesn't make an explicit threat, you ought not to be able to arrest them.

The law's intent can and will be circumvented by people intelligent enough to figure out how to do so. That is much more acceptable to me than the government redefining the law, or creating a law with no firm definition. In one case, you deal with occasional danger from individuals. In the other, you deal with danger from a vast and powerful organization.

Freedom is Dangerous.

The Alternative is Unthinkable.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 11:53 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
"Do you not think we can find an interpretation that protects both our Liberty and provide some degree of defense for those that have a legitimate reason to feel threatened?"

My frequently unpopular opinion is that as long as we give people the freedom to defend themselves, and perhaps even encourage them to do so, they will have less to fear from those that sidestep the letter of the law in order to achieve evil ends.

Nearly every villain in this life prefers an easy target.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 12:14 PM

Anthony, go READ some of these laws - you'll be scared shitless to even post.

Just about *anything* you say these days can be construed as a threat to somebody, or a hate crime, depending on how they wanna spin it, and under HR1955 - even most political discussion would be *out-right* illegal.

Do you really think I use the massive layers of smoke and mirrors to remain anonymous from advertisers and message board people ?

I saw this coming in 1997 back when the FBI was salivating over the GRU's SORM-II which gave them the ability to track, arrest and imprison anyone who dared buck the ruling order online.

Watching them clone it (badly) here as Carnivore/Omnivore in spite of being denied funding and a direct congressional ORDER not to do it, then use it on americans in contravention of a second, seperate congressional ORDER not to do that, specifically (all retroactively authorized the Patriot Act, but really the fuckers should be in jail, tbh)...

It prettymuch convinced me that it was *going* to come to this, and it will, and it has - you think that's the only person they've gagged and/or arrested, or hassled, or kicked in the door with no warrant or an unsigned warrant and physically wrecked someones server farm.. ?

Go talk to IndyMedia about that kind of thing, it's actually pretty common these days, and in spite of the law, and privacy policies - as the telecom surveillance fiasco reveals, they will roll over and take it like a bitch the minute some intel agency even hisses in their direction, selling you out without a care in the world, or even bothering to ask for a warrant.

Those same intel agencies which have failed us in every respect, failed to do the duties assigned to them, and for decades and more have been naught but a money pit that sucks up our money and freedom, and then shits on us, laughing all the while, because while they have utterly failed in every respect of their assigned duties and limits, every single one has a tremendously deep and long history or harrassing and abusing the very people they were intended, and are by their charters bound to protect.

And I haven't let this subpeano business go as easily as Conyers has, I *still* think those bastards down at USDOJ oughta be on the business end of a dynamic entry warrant service, tear that place from top to bottom and start throwing those fuckers in jail where they belong.

Privacy ? get real, the intel goons do what they will, and the government seems to have no intent on putting the leash on... is it really that far fetched that such behavior is gonna filter all the way down to local police depts given that no one is willing, or even (legally) ABLE, anymore, to put a stop ot it ?

You're only real hope there lies in a return to Propaganda of the Deed, and Response in Kind, by folks who are willing to flip big daddy Gov the bird

Go do some homework on HOW the COINTELPRO program was exposed - it sure as shit wasn't an FOIA request which'll get laughed at and sent heavily redacted forgeries, or told there's noting TO release - it was a blatant act of PoD/RiK committed by folks tired of taking shit from BigGov and their attack dogs.

How much shit are YOU prepared to take ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 8:18 PM

I hesitate to even comment in this thread because the subject pisses me off so bad, but the reaction of some makes it even worse. This case is the definition of appropriate discretion by the police. What kind of idiot thinks that advocating violence against teachers and maybe even students is acceptable protected speech. This is no different than shouting fire in a theater and the courts have dealt with this long ago. It is totally appropriate for the police to take this dude downtown for questioning. If they determine he's just a dumb ass, fine he'll walk in an hour. Maybe its just me but when someone tells me they think killing people is a good thing, I take them at their word.

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 9:46 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

His comments were on par with some of the comments one finds here.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, December 8, 2007 9:53 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I hesitate to even comment in this thread because the subject pisses me off so bad, but the reaction of some makes it even worse. This case is the definition of appropriate discretion by the police. What kind of idiot thinks that advocating violence against teachers and maybe even students is acceptable protected speech. This is no different than shouting fire in a theater and the courts have dealt with this long ago. It is totally appropriate for the police to take this dude downtown for questioning. If they determine he's just a dumb ass, fine he'll walk in an hour. Maybe its just me but when someone tells me they think killing people is a good thing, I take them at their word.

Kirkules,

I'm sorry, but I disagree on almost every point.

Shouting Fire in a theater is illegal because it can cause a deadly panicked stampede. Praising the Columbine shooters carries no such danger.

The man wasn't invited to answer questions. He was arrested.

The man didn't threaten anyone. He praised people who had committed murder.

Rue is right. Under the criteria which got this man arrested, several forumites of this very political forum could be hauled off.

It's not right.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 1:01 AM

You know, I really get sick of hearing that particular argument, especially applied to free speech.

You do, in fact, have every "right" to yell fire in a crowded theatre, however, you also have the *responsibility* to face the consequences of your actions - because when you exercise a basic right, it is your responsibility to do so in a manner that does not infringe the rights of others or harm them, such as is reasonably possible.

The Law is not a magic bullet - jaywalking is illegal too, is it going to drop a brick wall in front of you if you try ?

Gun free zones don't seem to have the magical ability to keep out some numnutz with a piece who wants to play target gallery on folks who can't shoot back, either.

Does lightning come down from the sky and disable your vehicle when you violate some minor traffic law, then ?

It's *IDIOTIC* that folks consider "the law" some kind of magic bullet.

Laws are made by people.
Laws are enforced by people.

Thus, the laws, and enforcement thereof, are only as "good" as the people who create and enforce them - and taking a good, long, hard, HONEST look at Congress, the courts and the Police as a force and community, you might begin to realize why I have little respect for "the law" as issued and enforced by a trio of the most corrupt, self-serving, abusive collectives in the country.

You can not, and should not, attempt to legislate common sense - that's nanny state shit which ends with everyone in a rubber room.

Jack made a great point a while back, about throwing crap like this in the pile.
Some guy roughs up some other guy - fine, assault and battery, duh...
But nooo, cause they're different colors, now it's a "hate crime".
Hurting someones feelings is now "hate speech" ?

Come on, that is ridiculous - the Gov has no business in what folk SAY to each other, someone starts slinging slurs, threats or hate... you ignore em, flip em the bird, respond or whatever, as is your right, the only time that should be a factor legally whatever is when someone is doing it to a "captive" audience, like a parent or teacher at a child, or a cop at a cuffed suspect.

Yer welcome to have an opinion or a grudge and verbally share it, that's your right - as is my right to mock, ridicule, flame or plain ignore you, I am not obligated to listen to you, and if I am on your property(or website) and you say something I don't care to be hearin from you, I can just take myself elsewhere - so what the hell is the problem ?

If you spout something I don't care for in public, I can just ignore you, or mock and ridicule, heckle, whatever - "the law" does not BELONG in that transaction until and unless it comes to violence, and the stupidity of offering violence to shut someone up just proves that emotionally and socially, we're still fekkin barbarians, to be honest.

It's true that mere words can "do harm" but as a general rule, only against a captive audience without the ability to remove themselves from the venue from which they are offered, publicly they can be avoided, and private property is an issue with it's owner.

ALL speech is protected speech, no matter how offensive or hateful it is - when you go begging big daddy government to go around shutting up people because you don't like what they say, or how they excercise that right, and then hand them the power to do it with one hand while pissing on the constitution (cause that IS what you are doing at that point) with the other, be advised that sooner or later that can and will come back on YOU, when someone with more money and political influance decides they don't like what YOU are saying.

The outright *STUPIDITY* of this kind of thing (directed specifically at you, Kirk) is what has lead us down the slippery slope to this abusive half-ass wannabe police state we've got now - every time you allow the Gov to disrespect the rights of those you do not agree with, you set it up for them to disrespect EVERYONES, including yours, and including mine, which pisses me off quite severely there, cheerleader.

This crap is really tipping over the edge into the practical realm of thought crimes, and the only real way to level a check against it when our so-called representatives no longer give a damn about our opinion is by total non-compliance.

See nothing, Say nothing, Do nothing - like them three monkeys, and if rooked into being some judges rubber stamp for a verdict against someone, remember the Zengler trial and the principle of jury nullification.

The Gov, in and of itself, is incapable of doing this shit to us, they get away with it because WE let them do it - the problem is, within our vile, sociopathic, stick it to everyone else to get ahead social order, there's certainly no shortage of snitches and sellouts who care less about the rights of others than they do getting an edge on everyone else.

For mine own, I ain't their bitch, and ain't ever gonna be.

How bout you ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 4:44 AM

CHRISISALL

Anthony & Frem say all the stuff I was gonna, and better too.

Speechless Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 5:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Laws are made by people.
Laws are enforced by people.

If you spout something I don't care for in public, I can just ignore you, or mock and ridicule, heckle, whatever - "the law" does not BELONG in that transaction until and unless it comes to violence, and the stupidity of offering violence to shut someone up just proves that emotionally and socially, we're still fekkin barbarians, to be honest.

ALL speech is protected speech, no matter how offensive or hateful it is -

, which pisses me off quite severely there, cheerleader.

For mine own, I ain't their bitch, and ain't ever gonna be.

How bout you ?

-Frem

I think for the most part I agree with most of your points. While I agree that all speech is technically legal, in this case the dude just suffered the result of his "*responsibility* to face the consequences of your actions". I would think that as an Anarchist you would not deny me my right to defend my family before "it comes to violence". Many of the sociopaths out there love using their free speech rights for years before they commit any serious offence. I personally think its better for the police to ask these people a few question when they start advocating violence then to wait for them to act.

Your sugesstion that I'm a "cheerleader" for the Government/police couldn't be further from the truth. I've had a few run-ins with jack booted thugs that call themselves police in my life and as a result I have little respect for them. In my opinion anyone who wants to be a police officer should immediately be disqualified from being one on this basis alone. Having said that, my bias against the police doesn't keep me from believing that it's better for them to preemptively deal with nut cases rather than wait for me to feel my family is threatened. As an Anarchist I'm sure you can see how that might not end well. While I don't think you are right that "we're still fekkin barbarians" you are certainly correct in my case.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 9:13 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
defend my family before "it comes to violence". Many of the sociopaths out there love using their free speech rights for years before they commit any serious offence. I personally think its better for the police to ask these people a few question when they start advocating violence then to wait for them to act.

Hello,

I don't think anyone argues with the police asking a few questions when someone makes an allegation of a threat. In fact, the police are pretty much obligated to do so.

You do NOT need to arrest someone to ask them a few questions. You do NOT need to take them into custody. Asking a few questions is what should happen BEFORE an arrest.

An arrest ought to occur based on the answers to those questions, not on account of the questions themselves.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 11:15 AM

Well, Anthony beat me to it...

You maybe ask em a few quick questions to make sure it's just verbal axe grinding, maybe keep a loose eye on em to see if it's just talkin smack or what - and really, you don't even have to involve the police for that.

And if someone is doing it anonymously, then you snicker at it and move on after a double check or your own safety procedures, unless it's a direct threat specifically at you.

I may come down real harsh, but we are legally treading damned dangerous ground here, and most folks don't even know it, and the only way the folks who are trying to keep the lid on can compensate for lack of numbers is sheer rabidity.

The provider shoulda never rolled this guy, especially without a warrant, and everything from that point was just icing on the cake, cause they damn sure should not have arrested him and hauled him downtown neither.

If someone offers specific threat against a specific individual, business or what have you, that is a different thing, even tho in my opinion that is not a crime until they actively prepare to carry it out - at which point you do question them, thereby informing them of the authorities interest in having that not happen and preventing the crime BEFORE it occurs.

Without needing to arrest or incarcerate anyone, and you maybe keep a loose eye on em a while after to see if they're dumb enough to continue anyway, THEN you bust em.

Problem is a lotta police have moved fully from crime prevention, to law enforcement, and will actively do nothing up till, or even after, just to bag the arrest.

And as it stands, we're becoming something out of 1984 complete with thought police and snitching on each other as part of the package, and if by my actions to prevent it some folk get offended, so be it.

Just sayin you need to take a closer look at the beast who's leash you're sawing free before you let that thing loose on everyone including yourself.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 3:05 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Is there any way for a citizen to collect reparations of some kind for being arrested in violation of his rights?

Hero? Do you know?

Yes, you can recover damages for false arrest. But its hard because the Govt and its agents (including police and prosecutors) have limited immunity so long as they had a good faith basis for their actions.

However this person made threats and such threats may consitute Disorderly Conduct. If another teacher was alarmed enough to call the police I'm not going to fault the police for arresting him.

Its like the article said...if its a threat, its illegal...if its not a threat but rather some sort of "tongue in cheek" comment on policy, then its protected speech. Either way its better to have the police react to the situation quickly then fail to act with a tragic consequence.

Its easier to pull back police who have gone a little to far then it is to make up for police who did not do enough.

H

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 6:37 PM

You know, I really don't want to live in the 1984 world or that of "Minority Report" (the short story, which is why it is in quotes). I know that we have it good; had it pretty good for awhile. But in the next few years, if the job market allows it, I think I may try living in a country where I feel that my voice is actually represented in government. That old "anyone can run" crap is ludicrous and worn out. Yea, anyone can run. But unless you have one hell of a rich daddy you don't have a prayer.
With this, the new executive order signed by Bush last week (I'll post a link once I find it again, i think it is a different thread on here somewhere), seeing all of these motorists getting the wrong end of the taser for doing nothing, the illegal phonetapping, secret torture-happy prisons, running willy-nilly off to fight (will get worse if either of the two front runners get elected), and the ever growing power of the executive branch, I just think I would be better off taking my chances somewhere else. Anyone here from Australia? I think I would really like to try that out.

E

"Half of writing history is hiding the truth."

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 7:49 PM

New Zealand, Oley - or if you're up for and able to learn a new language, Finland.

Secondaries would be Iceland, Sweden, etc..

Finland rather strongly believes in self-determination, if you check into their history, they've gone to some pretty extreme lengths to ensure it.

Australia's going the way of the US and UK, banning personal defense, spying on everyone, the usual precursors to either a violent revolution or the new Oceania, really, I'd stay away from that whole mess.

-Frem

PS - If yer gonna do it, convert your assets to hard silver, gold or uncut stones and take a friggin BOAT, cause you try leaving for those reasons, for good, you'll have homeland security up your ass with a microscope, and they WILL "confiscate" or freeze your assets - not to mention you WILL find out once you've left that the IRS never, EVER lets go, and will continue to apply their goddamn taxes against any income you make even over there and will demand payment.

It is that demand, and the threat of it's enforcement, that keeps most expatriates from EVER coming back.

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Sunday, December 9, 2007 11:57 PM

CITIZEN

Running for government is like the doors to an expensive hotel:
Open to everyone.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 2:31 AM

I am actually of Scandinavian decent, so those suggestions might work pretty well. Although it is really cold often there.

Ok Citizen, your wit intrigues me. What do you suggest? As I have explained before, those in power over the last 20 years have made change increasingly difficult. It is difficult to unseat a Congressman, which is why you have the same posers for years. We were just lucky in Virginia that George Allen screwed up enough times that he didn't get re-elected. Those in power have fudged up the education system so bad that it is becoming more difficult to get the quality students, those who have the ability to possibly make changes, into a position to do so by getting them into good schools. Administrations can't worry about them because they have to worry about getting all of the boneheads through.
So what are my choices? Run for city council? Lose. Because I don't have the time or the money to campaign because I have an honest job and a kid in college. Write my senator? Ha. Like that will do a lot of good. All of those blue-blood rich white guys represent their own interests, not that of their electorate. That mutual trust is long gone. So how the hell am I suppose to give big government the finger

when it is getting damn near the suspension of due process for people that take action against Bush policy?
Yea, anyone can run, but few can win. Just take a look at who sits up on the hill now. It is foolish to think that under current election laws that anymore than a handful of regular "Joe Bag-of-doughnuts" as my dad used to refer to the regular middle-class person. "We are all just folk now." Maybe they can actually represent those that make up most of the population in this country; only to have their voices stifled out by all of the fat cats that sit on their asses up there. They look out for no one but themselves. In most professions, you can do that, but not when people have entrusted you with their voice.
"I look out for me and mine." Mal was right. Helping people is grand. I do it often (at the risk of inflating my ego, I reveal that). But one has to take care of his or her own first. Maybe the USA should have thought of that before they went charging off on its high horse to go kill and be killed by people who have been in conflict for 1200+ years.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 4:02 AM

Well, like I said, your options are prettymuch threefold.

Bend over and take it.

Fight dirty and in secret.

Head for the hills.

It's not really simpler than that.

-F

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Monday, December 10, 2007 5:04 AM

Well let's evaluate:

"Bend over and take it."
Well, that is a simple choice for me. Spartans never retreat. Spartans never surrender. Just kidding, but really, come on. They are never going to keep me quite, I don't care if they tap my phones and kill my dog.

"Fight dirty and in secret."
That would lower me to their level, as that is exactly what they are doing. It also doesn't have a chance in hades of working. The only chance to make changes is to be vocal and try to get some attention. If you can actually get some support you can make a change. Problem is today's youth is incredibly apathetic. My son tries hard to get something moving, but there are too many students where he is that are perfectly satisfied with the status quo. Likely, those are the students that have wallets deep enough that they will avoid the slowly evolving war on the middle class.
Now this is not to say that I want to see the late sixties repeated. I was in junior high during that craziness. The summer of '68 was awful. Almost saw DC burned to the ground (again). The period is often glorified nowadays in film and music, but it really was a very scary and chaotic time. The youth today are innovative (at least some of them are) and need to come up with a way to tell the federal government "Hey, we have something to say and are reps. aren't saying it!" Maybe they could ask Joss for the copyright and call themselves Browncoats! Ok, wishful thinking.

"Head for the hills."
Not a terrible solution. If you can't beat'em, go somewhere else and laugh at the poor bastards that are stuck under Big Brother. You can still call forth the winds of change from outside the borders. As with myself, I would rely on the power of the pen. Still trying to figure out where to go though.

With whoever brought up the IRS thing, that is pretty screwed up. That is why we should listen to Ron Paul and dump the damn thing.

A while back there was a small movement in Vermont which wanted to secede from the Union. If that kind of talk were to ever become serious, I would definitely go. That would be fun to participate in. Run up and moon the Lincoln Memorial while I'm at it.

Oley

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Monday, December 10, 2007 9:55 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
I just think I would be better off taking my chances somewhere else. Anyone here from Australia? I think I would really like to try that out.

I'm all for it.

Get out. Leave.

Now.

Go on already.

Get.

Wait...turns out nobody else wants you and your not really welcome here...

I mean really, what have you got to offer another country. Your dollars are devalued and you clearly lack any cents.

Perhaps you could try Fantasyland...

H

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Monday, December 10, 2007 9:59 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
So what are my choices? Run for city council? Lose. Because I don't have the time or the money to campaign because I have an honest job and a kid in college.

And the fact that people would NEVER elect you. Never. If you were unopposed, unoppsed would win in a landslide.

I mean really...what's you platform? "Elect me, I can do worse and promise not to do any better and either way I'd rather be in Australia."

Inspiring.

H

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Monday, December 10, 2007 10:27 AM

FLETCH2

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
New Zealand, Oley - or if you're up for and able to learn a new language, Finland.

Secondaries would be Iceland, Sweden, etc..
.

You wouldn't like Sweden Frem. For a start, without a government issued ID card you're pretty much excluded from any none cash financial transactions. They will not honour your US drivers licence and the 3 part test can take up to 6 months to schedule (and you will fail it the first time, everyone does.) Add to that the taxes and the fact that major decisions are made collectively and I doubt you will fit in. The irony is the US is about the only country where the level of personal freedom you want is even tolerated. Most places view the groups rights as trumping that of the individual... sorry.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 10:29 AM

Wow. I'm sorry that I pulled on your panties too hard. I may be cynical, but was I really deserving of all that? I have been a public servant for over 20 years working for the federal government as well as for the states of North Carolina and Virginia. I have earned several degrees in the areas of political science and public administration. I am qualified to run for many seats of elected officials. And I'll tell you exactly what my platform would be; I will make myself available every week in a town hall setting to answer the questions and address the concerns of my electorate. Certainly wouldn't flip out on someone with an opposing viewpoint.

I am not sure how I stepped on your toes Hero. It is an inevitable fact that there is a growing number of citizens who are losing faith in their government and its capability to respond to their needs. I have addressed several of the reasons why I believe this is the case. I was being more than a little sarcastic with the whole pick-up and leaving the country thing, as were at least some of the responses. Little bit late for me to think of things like that anyway.

I am not sure where your problem with me lies, but perhaps you could actually address it rather than being insulting and rather rediculous in your response. Your earlier posts seemed to be from an educated individual who would not rely on such a irresponsible, glandular response.

If you feel that I have not earned my right to be here, that I have not earned my right to state my educated opinion; then I'm not the one that needs to be brushing up on my "What it means to be an American" guidelines. If everyone that didn't think like you were to leave, then there would be no challenge, no barriers in the pursuit of hegemony. What fun would that be? I certainly wouldn't want to wake up to find that I am wearing the same suit and driving the same car as everyone else.

Step back and take a breath of fresh air Hero. Relax a minute before you get in a hissy-fit to respond. Unless you are George W. Bush, I don't think I have done anything that should offend you. If I am mistaken, enlighten me. No need to talk about expediting folks here. There is no need for it, we are all friends here Hero

Shiny??

Oley

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Monday, December 10, 2007 12:03 PM

Oley, just ignore him.

Hero's a state prosecutor (or so he claims) and of the mind that the nation of Oceania didn't go far *enough* in restricting the rights of us mere peons.

He's tried to hide behind a mask of reason and logic, but as all his arguments have since crumbled to the dust of their constituting fantasies, he's shown his true colors as just another nasty wannabe jackboot clanger.

I'd pay him no mind, save as an example of the type of individual who still supports our current administration because they are employed by it or in some position (like, you know, being a prosecutor for it..) where they are almost wholly insulated from the damage it's caused to folks who live in the real world.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, December 10, 2007 12:21 PM

>>For a start, without a government issued ID card you're pretty much excluded from any none cash financial transactions.

Applies here to the US, too.

>>They will not honour your US drivers licence and the 3 part test can take up to 6 months to schedule (and you will fail it the first time, everyone does.)

Had the same problem in MI, and it was actually *rigged* besides, and wound up actually paying a BRIBE on top of passing it in spite of it being rigged.
In case you hadn't noticed, we have a corruption problem in every state run aspect of detroit.

>>Add to that the taxes

Income tax, FICA, property tax, sales tax, utility tax, gasoline tax, excise tax, phone line tax, ISP provider line tax, double-taxed bonuses, tax on interest earned, additional tax for self employment... tax, tax and more tax, and tax on tax to boot!

I am right tempted to do the research and compare - after ALL that shite above is added up, I get to keep less than 18% of my income... is swedens tax rate really 82% then ?

>>fact that major decisions are made collectively

Collectively I can tolerate, remember imma social anarchist, might not LIKE it, but I would find that infinately more tolerable than some corporation buying votes to change the law to benefit themselves at my expense...

If the people as a whole make a decision and I don't necessarily agree, then you talk to folk and try to convince them, a far better system than the retro-feudal corporatism we have devolved to here.

Thing is, it's one thing to agree to certain limits for the good of the community, and far and away another to have them TAKEN from you for some political or corporate cabals benefit without regard to the community save as a pool of cannon fodder or peons to be exploited.

I highly suspect that if the Government of any of the area states, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, etc,... EVER tried to pull even a tenth of what the US Gov has pulled, they would be lynched and torn apart by angry mobs inside of six months, if that.

To really understand my position, you have to quote the mantra.
Repeat after me, plz..

I AM NOT A PIECE OF YOUR INVENTORY.

YOU DO NOT OWN ME.
YOU DO NOT CONTROL ME.

YOU CAN KILL ME, BUT YOU CAN NOT MAKE ME.

Try it, close your eyes and say it... and if you're most americans, in less than a second your conscience is likely to land the bitchslap from hell on you, unless you really stand by it for real.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, December 10, 2007 1:13 PM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Oley, just ignore him.

I would not ignore him. Rather, I would watch him carefully. His words on this forum, veiled by anonymity, show the true nature of the corruption eating at the heart of our government. Unless things change the current course they will have to be dealt with. He and his type are a cancer spreading through our nation, sucking the lifeblood of liberty and freedom and using it to feed the bloated body of their self-serving agendas.

This is exactly what they mean by keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 1:33 PM

FLETCH2

I don't know about lynching. The difference I noticed between the US and Swedish officials is that nobody gives any deference to anyone based on their position in Sweden. By that I mean Prime Minister is a job like that of a dustman or a teacher or a cab driver. It doesnt suggest any difference in social tier over anybody else, the feeling is very much the case of "this is my job that is his" not that of ruled and ruler.

In Sweden if your manager leaves, your group interviews his replacement because you know the job he has to do and know if the applicant has what it takes to do it. A manager is just that, an employee detailed the job of managing, not "The Man" or a superior form of human.

Ironically for a state that started out being against aristocracy America loves titles far more than any other nation. After she left office I remember seeing an interview with Mrs Thatcher by a US network where the interviewer insisted in calling her "Prime Minister" throughout, in much the same way that former chief execs in the US be them presidents and governors keep those titles after leaving office. That never happens in Europe when a chief exec steps down he's usually just an unemployed politician not someone deserving of special deference.

Do have to wonder how you'd do if the community decides something and not secome to your reasoning though? I suspect you'd be equally unhappy with that situation.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 2:38 PM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
I just think I would be better off taking my chances somewhere else. Anyone here from Australia? I think I would really like to try that out.

I live in Peru.

Not a perfect country, but in some ways, it is freer.

For one thing, most folks mind their own business. They don't get offended at blogs and call the police.

The cops here can't be bothered to arrest people for being dumbasses. In fact, they seem to rarely arrest people for anything but theft, murder, and rape-if you happen to know who the perps are and where they live. Fraud? You're on your own. Most folks keep their word, and do business on verbal contracts only.

I once drove through a neighborhood with this welcoming banner: "Beware. We lynch thieves here."

There is no income tax on salaries. Businesses pay about a 5% sales taxes on items over $18. They had property taxes, but no one enforced them until recently, when they needed the money to fix earthquake damages.

There is no welfare to speak of, but folks take care of one another. Things get recycled a lot, sometimes to a fault. (I once bought a mattress I thought was cotton, stuffed with dried up used diapers.)

Anyone who wants to start a business can do so. If someone buys a fridge, they put a sign on their window saying "Jello for sale." If their fridge comes with a freezer, the sign says "Ice and Jello for sale." Or sometimes they send their kids out to the street with cups of Jello to sell. No business permits, no health inspections. And since jello cups don't cost more than $18, no taxes.

Homeschooling? No problem. No one cares if your kids go to school. Your neighbors can ask you questions and harangue you if you don't take good care of your kids. But you have no fear from the law.

For the most part, folks solve problems on their own, without the help or intervention from govt. Govt is like the rich uncle who never calls or writes; you know he's there, but you also know he can't be bothered, so don't bother. People rely on their own assertiveness and their close-knit communities to take care of themselves and troublemakers.

If that blogger were offensive enough, he'd probably get an earful from a group of angry teachers telling him off outside his house. That would be it.

I like it here.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

Aude sapere (Dare to know). -- Samuel Hahnemann, M.D., founder of homeopathy

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Monday, December 10, 2007 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
Wow. I'm sorry that I pulled on your panties too hard. I may be cynical, but was I really deserving of all that? I have been a public servant for over 20 years working for the federal government as well as for the states of North Carolina and Virginia. Oley

I don't know what tweaked Hero but I can say what did it for me. I'm sick and tired of people who have been sucking on the Government teat most of their lives telling everyone how terrible everything is in the real world. They spend half their lives surrounded by people that agree with them on everything, complaining about how terrible things are. In the the last 20 years I've probably had 10 different jobs because when I want a raise or don't like the way they run their business I take my skills elsewhere. The problems with our Government is not just the politicians, it's the disgruntled bureaucrats that would rather complain than help to make the system better. I'm with Hero on one thing. All these countries that your thinking about moving to don't need you, they've got plenty of disgruntled bureaucrats already.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 4:52 PM

I will explain again, the whole moving thing was sarcasm. The tone (yes, there is tone in written word) seemed pretty obvious to me.
Yea, I complain about politicians. I also complained about citizen apathy. If we could get one or the other to change, we would be sitting pretty. However, thus far I see no sign of change. Can't have everyone saying that it all works fine and dandy. Can't say I knew a whole lot of the people you describes as "complaining how terrible things are". I didn't do a whole lot of complaining myself. Sure as heck didn't talk smack working in the Pentagon, though while working as a civilian you don't have to listen to anyone under lieutenant. Some of those marine folks were pretty nuts.
Is there anything so inflammatory about what I said? Yea, maybe it is just talk, but I can't do much more than that at this point. Do you want me to stop expressing my concerns because I can't go out there and run in November? Come on. As I said before, I am well educated on how the system works. Not just from textbooks (though I did my share of that) but from plenty of real life experience working in several different venues. What more do you want? Are members of the media a target of your criticisms too? They are not allowed to exercise their watchdog function because they were "sucking on the Government's teat"?
Damn right bureaucracy has its problems. Not sure what you would suggest to replace it though. Problem comes down to human nature, no form of government is outside of that.
So I can't complain about the politicians. I suppose I should just hand them my tax dollars, turn around and shut up. There are plenty of folks on this thread alone that have flamed the gov., why target me?

Oley

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 11:54 AM

This is what people are afraid of.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bil
ls&docid=f:s1959is.txt.pdf

A bill (S. 1959) to prevent "Radicalization". What the people don't want is to keep seeing more of this. No one wants slippery slopes.

Oley

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
I will explain again, the whole moving thing was sarcasm. The tone (yes, there is tone in written word) seemed pretty obvious to me.
Yea, I complain about politicians. I also complained about citizen apathy. If we could get one or the other to change, we would be sitting pretty. However, thus far I see no sign of change. Can't have everyone saying that it all works fine and dandy. Can't say I knew a whole lot of the people you describes as "complaining how terrible things are". I didn't do a whole lot of complaining myself. Sure as heck didn't talk smack working in the Pentagon, though while working as a civilian you don't have to listen to anyone under lieutenant. Some of those marine folks were pretty nuts.
Is there anything so inflammatory about what I said? Yea, maybe it is just talk, but I can't do much more than that at this point. Do you want me to stop expressing my concerns because I can't go out there and run in November? Come on. As I said before, I am well educated on how the system works. Not just from textbooks (though I did my share of that) but from plenty of real life experience working in several different venues. What more do you want? Are members of the media a target of your criticisms too? They are not allowed to exercise their watchdog function because they were "sucking on the Government's teat"?
Damn right bureaucracy has its problems. Not sure what you would suggest to replace it though. Problem comes down to human nature, no form of government is outside of that.
So I can't complain about the politicians. I suppose I should just hand them my tax dollars, turn around and shut up. There are plenty of folks on this thread alone that have flamed the gov., why target me?

Oley

CaptainOley, don't take my response to seriously. Many of my family members are lifetime Government employees and I tell them the same thing I told you all the time. Don't let me or anyone else here cause you to "stop expressing my concerns". As far as "why target me?". You might want to read some of the old threads around here. I think you will see that everyone here gets criticized regularly and often harshly. I also get your point about "tone in written word" as my reading comprehension and writing skills often cause me to miss tone, or for my tone to be missed by others. I appreciate the balanced nature of your response to me, but if you feel the need just tell me to f... off.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 1:26 PM

I avoid telling people to "just f... off", as you so eloquently put it, because it is far from what I am trying to accomplish here or anywhere. The only people that I would say such a thing too would be those that are really out of line. Not so much with opinion as with the use on language that I have a problem with (there are very few instances of this too).

On another site, there is a woman who is adamant that African Americans in this country continue to have it worse than any other group in history and truly believe that black persons should remove every other population and control the entire world. If this makes very little sense to you, you are not alone. But even a person with such contradictory and fanatical views (who often tells those who disagree off quite harshly) has the right to say all of this stuff. I don't tell this person off because I try to understand her rationale, and if I get real lucky maybe get her to understand the rationale of others.

Long story short, I don't think that telling people off or insulting them is getting anywhere at all. Just causing more problems. telling people to pack up and leave town because they don't see eye to eye with you or with the administration is pretty childish (I am referring to Hero here, not yourself).

So back on topic, I mutually appreciate a balanced response from yourself. If we could have more discussion than mudslinging than maybe all of these empty words can become a bit more than that.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 2:33 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
I avoid telling people to "just f... off", as you so eloquently put it, because it is far from what I am trying to accomplish here or anywhere.

Gotta say, captain - welcome! I'm so glad to see someone not taking up the invitation to dance. I've been avoiding the RWED - well, I've stuck to occasional lurking - because this community finds the "just f... off" option to be perfectly acceptable. RWED threads, almost without exception, get stuck in that place instead of discussing issues. It quickly becomes unbearable.

Speaking of issues - is there any update on this story? Is the guy suing? I hope he does, because it appears that the only way to get our overanxious Authority to behave is to kick `em in the pocketbook. They certainly have no concern for individual freedom or privacy.

Canttakesky - certain elements of Peru sound lovely. Myself, I'm staying in Vermont, and if the vote to secede ever comes up... ahh, if only!

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 3:17 PM

This is the most recent update that I have found.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/06/AR2007
120600153.html

It is from the sixth. At least the poor guy didn't get charged. I don't think he is going to sue though. He will be lucky if he gets through this without owing some cash and looking for a job. Also, the article is cool because it used the word facetious. I like that word. Don't know why, I just like it. It is cool that Wisconsin has a teachers' union. I think unions are pretty terrible for the most part, but teachers really need the pull. It is an injustice how they are treated here. In Virginia there is no unions, so they are out of luck. It stinks. Anyone here from Wisconsin? How do the teachers do there (other than this guy)?

I thank you for the welcome mal4prez (hehe, not sure how good Mal would be as a pres.). I am glad that you acknowledge the same problem that I have. I think that most would say they would like to avoid this, but it comes to it anyway.

If you hear upon the winds that the secession talk starts coming up, be sure to let us know! Talk about making a statement, that would be so cool.

By the way, your avatar is cool. Where did you find that?

Oley

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 5:56 AM

MAL4PREZ

Thanks for the update, CaptainOley. And I agree about "facetious" - that was just getting to be my favorite word on the Flying Spaghetti Monster thread, but then the talk died out. Hmm... maybe turning to that word did the trick, slaying my debate foes with my brilliant vocabulary LOL!

As for teaching, I'm a scientist pondering a change of career... to teaching. But I think teachers are treated well in Vermont, especially in boarding schools. Well, the pay is good and all, but the boarding school environment does kind of limit one's behavior. Gotta be good, hide the tattoo.

Teacher's unions - there should be more. It's a big problem in the USA that teachers aren't venerated. It isn't a career that draws in the cream of the crop because they are treated like crap. And we need education. Big time. If more people learned how to actually think, instead of being babysat for 8 hours a day, this country wouldn't be the quagmire it's in. Bush never would have been elected.

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainOley:
If you hear upon the winds that the secession talk starts coming up, be sure to let us know! Talk about making a statement, that would be so cool.

Not likely to happen, although several town boards have voted to impeach Bush. And we have Leahy, the only senator with balls. I love him!

Quote:
By the way, your avatar is cool. Where did you find that?

I took the picture myself at the writer's strike last Friday.

See here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=31772

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:30 AM