Quote:

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Originally posted by Hero:
Add to that the unprecedented high turnout (again favoring Obama) and the fact that many areas simply ran out of ballots and the large influx of New Yorkers at Hillary campaign events.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

And for the record, I spit upon the asinine idea of folks in two faraway states being able to decide FOR me what candidate should be on the ballot by the time it gets to me,
-Frem

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Quote:

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Originally posted by rue:
The real conspiracy is that republicans came out and voted for Clinton b/c they think she'll be easier to pick off in the national election.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:

Quote:

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Originally posted by rue:
The real conspiracy is that republicans came out and voted for Clinton b/c they think she'll be easier to pick off in the national election.

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But Rue, they're all TERRIFIED of Hilary getting the nomination! They're all convinced that it's gonna be a Clinton/Obama ticket and that they will get their collective butt kicked--it's hilarious!

HKCavalier
.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
I believe Kansas hero John Brown would know what to do in a case like this.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
I believe Kansas hero John Brown would know what to do in a case like this.

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John Brown was not much for subtle political persuasion. Still...

John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
His soul is marching on.
CHORUS:
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His soul is marching on.

He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
His soul is marching on!

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
His soul is marching on!

His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
They go marching on!

They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
As they march along!

Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
As we are marching on!

H

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Quote:

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
it doesn't give the impression that Clinton or Obama would have much to worry about from a Republican this year.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No historian here, but didn't John Brown & his men raid a Federal armory in Harpers Ferry, Va ( now W.Va.), kill US Federal Troops, & was tried and hung for insurrection?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
The tiny light at the end of this long gorram, ruttin' tunnel....

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I very much doubt there will be a Clinton/Obama ticket since neither delivers something that the other doesn't already have. Both come from northern states, both will alienate a small but potentially significant part of the electorate.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
The ONE thing that Obama can deliver to Clinton, and vice-versa, is security. Having one of them choose the other as running mate makes the one in the lead basically "assassination-proof". Think about it: those who couldn't possibly accept a woman president wouldn't be any too happy with a black president, either - and the same holds true whichever one is running for President - the other one keeps them safe.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
No historian here, but didn't John Brown & his men raid a Federal armory in Harpers Ferry, Va ( now W.Va.), kill US Federal Troops, & was tried and hung for insurrection?

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Yeah.

The attack was put down by US Marines from Washington City led by one Col. Robert E. Lee. Brown was eventually exectuted by public hanging in Virginia (with security by the Cadet Corps from the Virginia Military Institute).

Brown was considered a hero and martyr by abolishonists in the north despite his long record of terrorist activities in Kansas. In fact he was a big part of the whole 'Bleeding Kansas' crisis. He led the attack on Lawrence, Kansas in 1857 that sacked and burned the town (Pottawatomie Massacre).

The song I cited became a Union marching song during the Civil War. I note for the record that were I ever given the choice, I'd prefer to be hung from a sour apple tree then just a regular one...so perhaps they were doing Jefferson Davis a mild complement.H

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Quote:

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Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Heya Fletch,

......

However, one thing that gives their terror just a little credibility is the largely unreported reality I see in this election cycle: the Republicans got no game this time out. If we didn't have the two party hype machine that we do, every last one of the Republican candidates would be an also-ran, a foot-note. None of these guys would be front tier. Every last one of them has HUGE Achilles heals with the electorate.

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
I contend that the Dems were not really serious about winning in 2004 because that would have left them in charge of the war and probably not in control of congress. They needed another 4 years to let Bush's unpopularity grow and affect congressional Republicans.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Thanks Hero...That's very interesting, and quite ironic when you think about it:
One man killed for the cause of ending slavery, then was captured by the man who would fight a war to keep slavery.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Thanks Hero...That's very interesting, and quite ironic when you think about it:
One man killed for the cause of ending slavery, then was captured by the man who would fight a war to keep slavery.

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Whats most amazing is that the he was able to fight both for and against the Union in two wars and a career of service without changing his moral values. He saw service to his state to be service to his country until those two came into conflict, then service to his state became something else entirely.

He was also against slavery. Riddle that one around. Stonewall Jackson was also against slavery (almost a radical abolishionist).

H

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:
I contend that the Dems were not really serious about winning in 2004 because that would have left them in charge of the war and probably not in control of congress. They needed another 4 years to let Bush's unpopularity grow and affect congressional Republicans.

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Your right. But for 9/11 I believe that Hillary would have challenged bush in 2004.


.....



After 9/11 I think Hillary decided not to run becuse Bush had soaring popularity up through the end of 2003 (when the war scandals started taking serious tolls). He was almost unbeatable, especially given the American preferance to retain wartime Presidents.

However 2008 belongs to her. She and her husband own the Democratic Party, this decision was made years ago. Whether Obama can win in the face of that truth is a far more difficult proposition for him then winning the general election.

On the Conspiracy subject...apparently Dennis Kucinich read our thread...

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8U3ERUO1&show_article=1

H

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:
I believe Kansas hero John Brown would know what to do in a case like this.

---

John Brown was not much for subtle political persuasion. Still...

John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
His soul is marching on.
CHORUS:
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His soul is marching on.

He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
His soul is marching on!

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
His soul is marching on!

His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
They go marching on!

They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
As they march along!

Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
As we are marching on!

H

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No historian here, but didn't John Brown & his men raid a Federal armory in Harpers Ferry, Va ( now W.Va.), kill US Federal Troops, & was tried and hung for insurrection?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

Actually I don't think it's that big a riddle. History has accepted the victor's version of waht the war was about --- slavery. I think most on the Confederate side saw it as a state's rights issue. You could be against slavery and still think that your State's rights needed defending against an over reaching Federal government.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kirkules:
I believe Kansas hero John Brown would know what to do in a case like this.

---

John Brown was not much for subtle political persuasion. Still...

John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave,
His soul is marching on.
CHORUS:
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
His soul is marching on.

He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord,
His soul is marching on!

John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
John Brown's knapsack is strapped upon his back,
His soul is marching on!

His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
His pet lambs will meet him on the way,
They go marching on!

They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
They will hang Jeff Davis to a sour apple tree,
As they march along!

Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
Now, three rousing cheers for the Union,
As we are marching on!

H

---

No historian here, but didn't John Brown & his men raid a Federal armory in Harpers Ferry, Va ( now W.Va.), kill US Federal Troops, & was tried and hung for insurrection?

---

There's a lot of disagreement as to whether John Brown was a "great man" or the "father of American terrorism". One thing is for sure, he had more to do with ending slavery in the US than any other single American. He wasn't necessarily a good man but he was effective.

The reason I referenced him in this thread is because of his actions after the Kansas election of 1855. That year thousands of pro-slavery Missourians came over the border into Kansas to vote in the election to determine if Kansas would be a free or slave State. After they stole the election they set up an illegal government and immediately legalized slavery in Kansas. As a response, Kansas "Free-Soilers" set up their own government and constitution. Hero's version of the events that followed is incorrect. The town of Lawrence was actually sacked by a pro-slavery posse sent to arrest the "Free-Soilers". In response to the attack on Lawrence, John Brown murdered five pro-slavery settlers, some of which he hacked to death with a sword.

Do the results John Brown achieved justify the means? I believe that slavery was such a great evil that it took a man like Brown to wake up the nation.

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Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Fletch2:

Actually I don't think it's that big a riddle. History has accepted the victor's version of waht the war was about --- slavery. I think most on the Confederate side saw it as a state's rights issue. You could be against slavery and still think that your State's rights needed defending against an over reaching Federal government.

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Exactly, yet if the victors write the history, it is truly amazing the kindness that history and the victors displayed to General Lee. Few American commanders are held in as high esteem.

H

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Barrack Obama.......

A black Muslim with almost zero experience...Yep, that's who I want for President!

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Barrack Obama.......

A black Muslim with almost zero experience...Yep, that's who I want for President!

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Which part is it you have the problem with? The fact that he's black, or the "fact" (which, by the way, isn't true) that he's a Muslim?

Or is it the "zero experience" part? Tell me, how do you think Reagan did as President? Keep in mind that he had ZERO (not "almost zero", but ACTUALLY zero!) national-level experience.

While I have my misgivings about Obama's qualifications or abilities to run this country, let's not just go around parroting that stupid, fallacious e-mail that's making the rounds. For one, it claims that he's a radical Muslim - simply because his father, whom he barely knew, was a Muslim. So by that reckoning, if your father was a racist, then that makes you...

Oh. Never mind. Mike
sweeping generalizations are wrong.

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Quote:

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I do know enough about him and his beliefs...

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Quote:

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Obama used a Koran? No, he didn't
By Angie Drobnic Holan
Published on Thursday, December 20th, 2007 at 01:23 p.m.



SUMMARY: An anonymous e-mail claims Barack Obama is a Muslim, attended a madrassa as a boy and took the oath of office on a Koran. The Truth-O-Meter says wrong, wrong and wrong.

In December 2007, the Hillary Clinton campaign asked for the resignations of volunteers who forwarded a chain e-mail falsely saying that Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim. Those firings are just the latest reverberations from a relentless e-mail that has piled up in in-boxes for at least a year.

The e-mail makes a number of specious claims to promote its Manchurian Candidate-style conspiracy theory. It says Obama was raised Muslim and that as a boy he attended a radical Wahabi school in Indonesia. The most recent twist on the e-mail falsely alleges that Obama took his oath of office for the U.S. Senate by swearing on a Koran, the Islamic holy book. The facts, though, are that Obama is a Christian and took the oath of office on a Bible.

Like many Internet smears, it's difficult to tell who’s behind the e-mail and when it got started. The earliest mention we found was on Snopes.com, a Web site devoted to investigating urban legends and other Internet oddities. Snopes checked out the e-mail it received in 2006 and found it false.

Also like many Internet smears, the e-mail starts with a bit of truth before wildly lurching into fantasy. It’s true that Obama’s father was from Africa, and Obama has said his father was born a Muslim. Obama's stepfather was from Indonesia, raised a Muslim. But there’s no evidence that either man was particularly religious as an adult — Obama's father is sometimes described as an atheist, while his stepfather drank alcohol, forbidden in Islam. Obama's American mother, Ann Dunham, rejected organized religion, according to several accounts. Obama has summed up his own faith history by saying he didn't grow up in any particular religious tradition. (Obama's mother, father and stepfather are all deceased.)

The chain e-mail spread from in-boxes to the mainstream press in January 2007, when the conservative magazine Insight published a story saying unnamed sources in the Clinton campaign had discovered that Obama attended a madrassa in Indonesia for four years. Clinton campaign officials denied the story. From Insight, the story was picked up by Fox News, the New York Post and the Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News.

The Insight story, still available on the Web, never makes clear that the rumors aren't true. An editorial in Insight recently defended the article: “The focus in our story in January 2007 was Hillary’s campaign strategy, not Obama. We were right in our January report about Hillary’s activities, the facts continue to prove us right that Hillary will do all she can to sabotage Obama, and we will ultimately be fully vindicated. Once again, the liberal media will have egg on its face.”

CNN, the Associated Press, the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune investigated the facts behind the e-mail's madrassa claim, sending reporters to Indonesia to interview former teachers and students. (“Madrassa” is an Arabic word meaning "school,” but Americans generally understand the word to mean a school where anti-Western Islamic ideology is taught.) These investigations found a public school where students wore Western clothing and prayer was a small part of the curriculum. The Chicago Tribune reported the school was “so progressive that teachers wore miniskirts and all students were encouraged to celebrate Christmas.”

Another allegation that appears to have been tacked on to the madrassa e-mail at a later date is the notion that Obama took the oath of office using a Koran. That’s false. Obama became a Christian as an adult, after working as a community organizer with African-American churches in Chicago, a process he recounts in his memoir Dreams from My Father. He is currently a member of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. When he took the oath of office for the Senate in January 2005, he used his own personal Bible, according to the Obama campaign and press reports from the time.

It's worth noting that a December 2007 NBC/Wall Street Journal poll showed only a small minority — 17 percent — correctly identified Obama's religion as Protestant. Eight percent said Muslim, and 70 percent didn't know or refused to answer.

Because the chain e-mail is clearly intended to defame Obama (asking "Would you want this man leading our country?") and because it gets so many salient points wrong, we award it our Pants on Fire ruling.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Quote:

---

I do know enough about him and his beliefs...

---

That's just it, though - you DON'T know enough about him and his beliefs; you only "know" what you've been told by others trying to push their own agendas.

The e-mail you keep going back to about him refusing to take the Pledge of Allegiance, put his hand over his heart, and being sworn in on the Koran is utter and complete bullshit. It doesn't even have the right target! The guy who was sworn in on the Koran was Michigan Congressman Keith Ellison, who was indeed sworn in by placing his hand on a copy of the Koran - the same copy of the Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson!!

What you "know" about Obama is akin to me saying I "know" that Mitt Romney is a polygamist baby-raper (he must be - he's a Mormon!), Rudy Guiliani is a card-carrying Al Qaeda terrorist cell leader (his firm represents and takes money from those who hid Bin Laden), Mike Huckabee is a pedophile (he must be - he's a Baptist minister!), John McCain is a Commie sleeper agent (he must be - I saw The Manchurian Candidate, and he was a POW!), and Fred Thompson is a liberal Hollywood lefty (he must be - he's a TV and movie star, and we all know how *they* are...).

Here's more info on that e-mail, courtesy of The Congressional Quarterly:

Quote:

---

Obama used a Koran? No, he didn't
By Angie Drobnic Holan
Published on Thursday, December 20th, 2007 at 01:23 p.m.



SUMMARY: An anonymous e-mail claims Barack Obama is a Muslim, attended a madrassa as a boy and took the oath of office on a Koran. The Truth-O-Meter says wrong, wrong and wrong.

In December 2007, the Hillary Clinton campaign asked for the resignations of volunteers who forwarded a chain e-mail falsely saying that Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim. Those firings are just the latest reverberations from a relentless e-mail that has piled up in in-boxes for at least a year.

The e-mail makes a number of specious claims to promote its Manchurian Candidate-style conspiracy theory. It says Obama was raised Muslim and that as a boy he attended a radical Wahabi school in Indonesia. The most recent twist on the e-mail falsely alleges that Obama took his oath of office for the U.S. Senate by swearing on a Koran, the Islamic holy book. The facts, though, are that Obama is a Christian and took the oath of office on a Bible.

Like many Internet smears, it's difficult to tell who’s behind the e-mail and when it got started. The earliest mention we found was on Snopes.com, a Web site devoted to investigating urban legends and other Internet oddities. Snopes checked out the e-mail it received in 2006 and found it false.

Also like many Internet smears, the e-mail starts with a bit of truth before wildly lurching into fantasy. It’s true that Obama’s father was from Africa, and Obama has said his father was born a Muslim. Obama's stepfather was from Indonesia, raised a Muslim. But there’s no evidence that either man was particularly religious as an adult — Obama's father is sometimes described as an atheist, while his stepfather drank alcohol, forbidden in Islam. Obama's American mother, Ann Dunham, rejected organized religion, according to several accounts. Obama has summed up his own faith history by saying he didn't grow up in any particular religious tradition. (Obama's mother, father and stepfather are all deceased.)

The chain e-mail spread from in-boxes to the mainstream press in January 2007, when the conservative magazine Insight published a story saying unnamed sources in the Clinton campaign had discovered that Obama attended a madrassa in Indonesia for four years. Clinton campaign officials denied the story. From Insight, the story was picked up by Fox News, the New York Post and the Glenn Beck program on CNN Headline News.

The Insight story, still available on the Web, never makes clear that the rumors aren't true. An editorial in Insight recently defended the article: “The focus in our story in January 2007 was Hillary’s campaign strategy, not Obama. We were right in our January report about Hillary’s activities, the facts continue to prove us right that Hillary will do all she can to sabotage Obama, and we will ultimately be fully vindicated. Once again, the liberal media will have egg on its face.”

CNN, the Associated Press, the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune investigated the facts behind the e-mail's madrassa claim, sending reporters to Indonesia to interview former teachers and students. (“Madrassa” is an Arabic word meaning "school,” but Americans generally understand the word to mean a school where anti-Western Islamic ideology is taught.) These investigations found a public school where students wore Western clothing and prayer was a small part of the curriculum. The Chicago Tribune reported the school was “so progressive that teachers wore miniskirts and all students were encouraged to celebrate Christmas.”

Another allegation that appears to have been tacked on to the madrassa e-mail at a later date is the notion that Obama took the oath of office using a Koran. That’s false. Obama became a Christian as an adult, after working as a community organizer with African-American churches in Chicago, a process he recounts in his memoir Dreams from My Father. He is currently a member of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. When he took the oath of office for the Senate in January 2005, he used his own personal Bible, according to the Obama campaign and press reports from the time.

It's worth noting that a December 2007 NBC/Wall Street Journal poll showed only a small minority — 17 percent — correctly identified Obama's religion as Protestant. Eight percent said Muslim, and 70 percent didn't know or refused to answer.

Because the chain e-mail is clearly intended to defame Obama (asking "Would you want this man leading our country?") and because it gets so many salient points wrong, we award it our Pants on Fire ruling.

---

Mike

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Reagan had been a Governor & like other Governors, Clinton, Carter, (jeesh, must be beter examples)

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Fletch2:

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

Reagan had been a Governor & like other Governors, Clinton, Carter, (jeesh, must be beter examples)

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You forgot Bush... yeah doesnt help much.... sorry

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Quote:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
History probably won't show that the Iraq War was a war about money or about oil. Things like that don't look good in a Middle School textbook.

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Quote:

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You'll probably never find a Middle School textbook that says the Civil War was fought to preserve the power and dominion of the Union over the States. That's not sexy or romantic.

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Quote:

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But fighting Slavery? That's a good fight. Sign me up.

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As an aside, when the enemy has a terrific military leader, you can't ignore the multiple brilliant victories he wins. It makes more sense to talk up his capabilities and prowess. Since you eventually beat this person, it only makes you seem even cooler. I mean, if the history texts said, "General Lee was a pansy" then you'd be hard pressed to explain his truckload of victories during the first half of the war.

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