Polygamist Pedophiles and Papal Pontifications by deadlockvictim

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
I lose what little faith I ever had in organized religion.

Organized religion is a powerful force, a force that can be used for good (which is Godly) and one that can be used for evil (thats us). That makes the church no different then any other human created entity.

Your problem seems to be that you want to hold the church to a different standard then you would...a grocery store. There may come a time when a grocery store sells you bad food...that does not mean all grocery stores intentionally sell you bad food or that all the food is bad. You just have to be careful, check the expiration dates, and follow safe preparation practices in your kitchen. Churches are exactly the same.

Put you faith in God, your trust in man, and be careful not to mix the two up.

Edited to add: I really want to work in some kind of line about 'not bowing down to Roman Popery'. Does not really fit, but its my favorite line from 'Gangs of New York.'

H

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Your problem seems to be that...

I really don't see myself as having a problem...(i don't abuse children), but I understand your point - and the grocery store analogy - it's just never been hard for me to see the disparity in what the church preaches and what the church does.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:51 AM

An interesting sidebar to the Polygamist story in Texas surrounds the custody hearing being held in San Angelo...

Quote:
About 350 lawyers from throughout Texas are converging on San Angelo to represent free of charge the 416 children and scores of parents caught up nearly two weeks ago in a raid on the compound.

A marathon child-custody hearing is set for Thursday (17th). Because of the size of the case, the Texas state bar called for volunteer lawyers to represent the children, as well as any parents who want to fight for custody.

San Angelo is a town of about 90,000. Lawyers will stay for what they believe to be at least two nights - some will stay at the homes of local lawyers...

H, I know there is a joke in there somewhere and I'm sure you've heard more than your share... so i'll leave it at that

Just thought you might find that interesting.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 10:58 AM

CHRISISALL

This thread, and the very notion of organized religion offends me.

Or not.

Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:06 AM

mea culpa, oh thin-skinned one...

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:10 AM

CHRISISALL

HEY! 'Culprit' come from that!

The easily thrilled at new discoveries Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:14 AM

PIRATECAT

Child molestors are predators. You'll find most of them where the kids are. Schools, day cares, churches, parks, and so on. If your in a neigbor hood the child molestor will always pick out the idiot family. The dad's a drunk the wife is caught up in the drama. The kids aren't being looked after and here comes Joe friendly. You protect your kids because when their harmed its the parents fault for being dumb asses. Then you execute the pervert. Simply. Now on the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Look at what you got an ex nazi running the show. Men who don't lay with women. I think god wants you to do that. Rabbis get married. They own the most land in the world, art, and whole bunch more. But they can't spare a dime to the children's lives they have ruined. Its just a corporation. Nothing spiritual about em reminds me of a pharoh with the hat. Alot like an ancient Babylonian cult. I watched this irish catholic on tv once speaking as a pr dude in Boston he blamed the teenage boys not the pervs in the church. When people like that are representing the church time to bolt.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:24 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

While I share your objections to the heinous acts preformed by so-called religious leaders and my sympathies go out to the victims - I’m not sure I think the church is obligated to pay reparations. Because some crazy Mormons made a prison camp for their sexual exploitation of minors shouldn’t reflect on the Mormon church as a whole. In the same way that a priest who commits his how twisted acts of sexual exploitation of minors shouldn’t reflect on the Catholic Church. In the same way that the twisted religious practices of 19 hijacker shouldn’t reflect on the Muslim church as a whole. That doesn’t however mean that the crazy Mormons and the twisted priests shouldn’t get their due reward at the hands of a big hairy dude named Ben Dover.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:49 AM

There are Good, Bad & Ugly aspects to all walks of life I suppose, and I'm not trying to lump all Mormons, Catholics, etc into the same category... but there does seem to be a few long established trends in some of these religions that don't always work for the betterment of mankind.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 11:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
HEY! 'Culprit' come from that!

yep, i'll be your huckleberry...

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:32 PM

PIRATECAT

Finn Mac, I disagree with you. If you represent your church to do crime. Your company, goverment, or church will be held responsible. The religons are covering up their deviate behavior. The child molestors have a hunger that of a predator hunts the small, weak, and unprotected.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:41 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

I'm gonna side with Finn on this one. Just because famous televanglists end up in pay-for-sex scandals does not mean every evangelist is a hypocritical slug.

I've known some damn fine priests in my day. I've also known some crazy PE/Coaches that ended up molesting athletes. No generalizations here. It happens. It sucks. When we find out we must stop it. Money won't fix this. Helping them find and pay for counseling would help, but I see no reason to give them a check.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 12:53 PM

That's the thing, predators are just that, and capable of camoflauging it under anything, but yeah, because of it's power, Faith is one of those blankets they hide under.

Contrary to a bit of holier than thou snarkery about it, it's not JUST christian faiths that have such problems, as due to the varied and often vague tenets of pagan beliefs, a lotta folk try to slide under the rails by trying to use them as excuses for behavior NO goodly belief system should accept.

Trust me, this crapola is NOT confined to any one belief system, and while folks are pissed at the catholics for the (proven) coverups, it's not like it does not happen in other sects of christianity or even other belief systems.

In spite of my dislike for religion in general, individually it does come out on balance as a positive force - it's just when folks externalize it and go to the middle man of an organized system religion that it opens the doors to behavior of this type or worse.

I say believe what you believe... but YOU believe it, don't shove it off on some middleman, look inside for enlightenment if you need it, or look at natures world around you, and the correct path for YOU, will reveal itself.

Technically imma UU* Lay Priest, so it's my responsibility to instruct and educate folk in whatever belief system seems appropriate to them and they have interest in, even if it's not one I care for - over the years this has shown me that *individualised* religion is definately a positive force in the world, with a positive effect on behavior.

Just one of those cases where empirical evidence has proven a logical conclusion wrong, I guess... I still don't care for religion, mind you, but I cannot deny the evidence of my own experiences either.

Now, THAT bein said... to the non-religious part.

-F
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:03 PM

KIRKULES

I agree with Piratecat here. The U.S. Catholic church covered up for, transferred, and tolerated pervert priests for to long to escape liability. To the extent the international Catholic church receives funds from the U.S. church, they're responsible also. After the first wave of pervert priests, the members of the church should have demanded action or left the church. Those in the U.S. that remained in the church became somewhat liable just because they stayed in the church and continued to give money even after they were aware that there was a big problem. This problem went on for decades even after knowledge of the problem was generally known to members of the church.

Don't get me wrong , as churches go, the Catholic church is pretty cool with the rituals and all. I would probably join up if the would clean up their act, and accept atheists.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:11 PM

THATWEIRDGIRL

They didn't cover up all the cases in the US. Some officials felt it necessary to cover stuff up and hide the sickos, but not all of them did. See, it's the generalizations that get me. I know churches that have successfully gotten rid of bad priests. I know Bishops that have worked to make sure victims find the help they need. This isn't recent stuff either, this is stuff that happened years ago. There are good, responsible faith practitioners out there. And to lump them all into one category as cover up pedophile lovers is wrong.

---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:23 PM

Non-religious part.

If you wanna scream at someone, start with the FBI.

They were, once AGAIN informed, repeatedly, with warrant-quality evidence and chose, once AGAIN, to sit on it, until contacts within the USDOJ, although fewer now than back when real action on this front started, forced them to either act or hand off responsibility so that USDOJ could intervene.

This is a common event with the FBI and this type of crime, dating all the way back to George Burdinsky and Operation Innocent Images, an investigation initially rebuffed and refused by the FBI, until USDOJ literally forced them to investigate, to which the FBI deliberately bungled it - identifying 9000 perps in six weeks, and choosing to arrest only 12, let 9 go, and charge 3 with misdemeanors.

All too often you take a crime like this to the FBI and they either ignore you and sit on it..
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=33076
Or they arrest and prosecute YOU.
(See Also: Alice)

SOP back when Marcus Lawson and US Customs were semi-reliable you could take it to them, but he went out on a forced retirement and that whole division was disbanded in favor of throwing it onto civilians at NCMEC, which don't have the access or authority to do anything more than pass the report on to the FBI, which will ignore it.

Some of this had to do with a certain amount of legal pressure from a former victims family and their lawyers...
(Told you that was comin...)
And some had to do with the Alphabet goons looking for another Waco, they were real assholes about it coming in all ninja turtle with an APC, which in my opinion was just plain over the top bullshit.

There are currently TWO credible, trial-worthy claims, and until we have more evidence or testimony further speculation is just that, I guess they were lookin for the same press-hysteria play they used on Koresh, but it didn't pan out that way, thankfully.

Part of the dog and pony show is also cover for THIS little factoid - these folks own NewEra Manufacturing, a defense contractor with a history of single-bid contracts, in the seven figure range.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/33519.html

Understandably that makes some folk nervous given the possibility of sabotage in retaliation for events, but I don't think that's a likely possibility, the sect and the company are not really linked closely enough for that to be a danger.

All of this could have been handled with a few interviews and a quiet conversation with the sects leadership in an attempt to secure their cooperation with cleaning house - followed by discreetly arresting the perps, rather than a stonewalling from the FBI and local officials, followed by an overblown show of force by the USDOJ.

This is a dog and pony show, folks, don't you forget it - and until a proper unbiased investigation is done, probably no longer possible due to the ninja turtles, the APC, the overblown theatrics, and press hysterics, we really don't know the extent of the problem at all.

And for the moment, that's all I know about it either - you're lookin at at a total overkill response to a relatively minor issue blown far out of proportion by a complicit media.

Lemme be blunt here - the mainstream media has done this in the same exact fashion folks around here flame PN for, they should NOT get a pass.

The cops went in looking for a war and trying to provoke one, they should NOT get a pass.

Can we really expect an unbiased full investigation under these current circumstances ?

And let's not get into testimony by kids practically at gunpoint who watched a small army with APC roll up and start tearing their "home" apart, seperated them from the only people they knew, and then started asking loaded questions ?

Look, I am *ALL FOR* smashing predators, but goddamn we need to do a better job of it than jumping at shadows with massive overkill like this.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
They didn't cover up all the cases in the US. Some officials felt it necessary to cover stuff up and hide the sickos, but not all of them did. See, it's the generalizations that get me. I know churches that have successfully gotten rid of bad priests. I know Bishops that have worked to make sure victims find the help they need. This isn't recent stuff either, this is stuff that happened years ago. There are good, responsible faith practitioners out there. And to lump them all into one category as cover up pedophile lovers is wrong.

Ditto what she said.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:09 PM

KIRKULES

Just to be clear, I wasn't making generalisations about Catholics or Catholic priests, just legal liability.

That being said, I think the definitive work on the priest sex scandal was done by the guys at South Park in the episode Red Hot Catholic Love. http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/608/Red-Hot-Catholic-Love.html

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 3:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And some had to do with the Alphabet goons looking for another Waco...

I was waiting for this. Actually, I thought someone would side with the FLDS and freedom from persecution on the basis of religious beliefs.

The weird thing is, when the whole Ranch Apocalypse thing went down I was living less than 50 miles away. I knew Vernon Wayne Howell from frequenting the same feed store, although I was not aware of what was happening at his compound. He seemed a regular enough guy.

Quote:
I guess they were lookin for the same press-hysteria play they used on Koresh, but it didn't pan out that way, thankfully.

What happened out at Mount Carmel was a complete travesty of justice, if you ask me. The Alphabets, as you say, were just there for the show. Announce their presence with authority, so to speak, and it blew up in their faces, but, as you say, thankfully the results were not the same in Eldorado.

Quote:
All of this could have been handled with a few interviews and a quiet conversation with the sects leadership in an attempt to secure their cooperation with cleaning house

The same thing could have applied to Waco - Howell, (Koresh) was in town often. The local law officials knew him and monitored his movements. He could have been taken into custody away from the compound, but even if not, storming the facility the way the ATF did was total overkill designed for maximum press coverage.

Believe me, at that time I did want to scream... at local law enforcement, the FBI, ATF and all who were involved in that nightmare.

I'm not sure what prompted the raid in Eldorado, other than what the media reports. I want to believe that officials were acting in the best interest of innocent victims, but sometimes that kind of naivete can get your home burned to the ground or get you killed....

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 5:41 PM

FLETCH2

My thoughts on it. What a sect decides to do in their bedroom is a personal thing. I don't hold much with polygamy because no matter how you look on it someone is being shorted in that relationship. However, all parties need to be consenting adults. Girls as young as 15 having babies? That's wrong as far as I'm concerned, people should have a chance to grow up and live some before they need worry about marriage and offspring.

I'm sure if the Mormons cleaned house and abided by the same age rules the rest of us accept nobody would care how many wives a man had, just so long as they were 18 or over.

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Wednesday, April 16, 2008 6:35 PM

Quote:
I want to believe that officials were acting in the best interest of innocent victims, but sometimes that kind of naivete can get your home burned to the ground or get you killed....

Without a doubt some are, and also without a doubt some are fulfilling personal agendas, and even the former, Gov't employment is no immunity to the bad habit of jumping in with both boots without fully researching the situation, rather the opposite, cause the consequences are so far removed from the individual who did so.

Right now it's a total fubar mess, you got the usual petty jurisdictional stuff, a couple ladder climbers lookin for a turned back to stick the knife in, pissed off folk lookin for someone to blame, folks who mean well but are disgusted by the whole mess, and folk trying to sort it out maybe enough to process an actual case out of it that's not a show trial, folks who WANT a show trial trying the shade the evidence...

And that's on the Gov side - compounded by social workers dealing with kids who've been somewhat traumatized by the tactics used to "rescue" them, who are afraid, confused and maybe a little angry, who are as usual badly undertrained for dealing with such things, and no way are they gonna be sympathetic towards the folk who scared and confused them in the first place, thus putting the social workers in the crossfire between trying to comfort and treat these kids on the one hand, and trying to extract testimony on the other, an untenable situation if there ever was one.

And then you got the parents, the folk running the place, and potential perps, who are without one ounce of doubt gonna go straight to their lawyers, the ACLU, and the media, in that order, once released from custody, which is gonna further muddy the waters on top of everything else.

Chances of processing an actual, fair trial of a justified case out of THIS mess, at THIS point ?

Jack Diddly Shit.

Once you've blown an investigation this badly, there's no point in continuing, cause it's just a dog and pony show from there.

By no means am I defending FLDS, cause they got much to answer for, given that I am aware of two cases at least that *could* have been pressed, but not after everyone peed in the pool on us like this - that's what I am angry about, is how they totally bungled it, you see.

I think what sparked the overkill factor was a combination of external pressure from some victims, families and lawyers, layered on top of the FBI and local officials refusing to act whatsoever, when they had more than sufficient evidence to do so, there's a big frustration factor in there from the USDOJ folk pissed off at having to come in over top like that cause no one wanted to dirty their hands doing the job.

This COULD have been handled with a hell of a lot more discretion, but no one wanted to touch the hot potato.

And I highly doubt, having invested so much effort and media attention, the authories are gonna admit fault, apologize and make reperations.
(While, if they have any sense, keeping a close watch for further misbehavior)

Nope, can't have that, so we're gonna have a dog and pony show, and a bullshit trial, which might stick, but even if it does will almost certainly go to appeal and likely be tossed due to evidence contamination...

What a freakin waste of a good case and needed resources, grrr.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:08 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I feel very bad for all those kids. I only hope the authorities truly do a good job in finding out who the bad guys here are, and allow these children to be with their moms again. The entire treasury of this cult should be evenly dispersed to help these kids. Any "moms" who participated in the pedophilia should go to prison right along with the men.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
San Angelo is a town of about 90,000. Lawyers will stay for what they believe to be at least two nights - some will stay at the homes of local lawyers...

H, I know there is a joke in there somewhere and I'm sure you've heard more than your share... so i'll leave it at that

Can't find a joke there. I have found there are hundreds of lawyers here in Ohio that would do the same thing. Problem is there are thousands of lawyers here in Ohio...

H

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 2:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just to be clear, I wasn't making generalisations about Catholics or Catholic priests, just legal liability.

Oh, well in that case your dead wrong. The members of the church have no liability for the misdeeds of the individual priests or the Church's coverup.

That's like making you responsible for you neighbor's failure to meet City 'Use of Land' laws. After all, you live there, same neighborhood, and did nothing to make him clean it up and you never moved away.

H

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
I'm not sure what prompted the raid in Eldorado, other than what the media reports. I want to believe that officials were acting in the best interest of innocent victims, but sometimes that kind of naivete can get your home burned to the ground or get you killed....

Well said. I hope we get answers from today's hearing. The Texas AG must be able to justify the removal of the children. He said yesterday he has all he needs to show they were in danger. I watched his interview, he didn't seem overly political like a lot of AG's...more businesslike and professional, which I liked.

That said, the interviews I watched with some of the mothers were downright scary. There was clearly something seriously wrong going on there.

From what I heard the children were removed from their mothers, shifted around, given new names and birthdays on a monthly basis so that the children can't identify their mothers and some of the mothers can't identify their children. They also claim to have evidence of child rape and the marriage and impregnation of young girls. After watching the mothers on FOX I believe we'll see thats what was going on...

I note for the record I would have gladly volunteered to represent a kid, I used to do that back in Lawschool and for a couple years after I graduated. I think I'm still on their list, but inactive since my job generally makes it a conflict (although when kids are involved I often take a 'best interests' approach). Had to Rule 6 some kids last month...Mother abandoned them in the Mayor's office after the City shut off her electricity for nonpayment. They were good kids, woulda taken one home...but we're not allowed to do that. Took a kitten under similar circumstances, but that's another story.

H

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 6:18 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by deadlockvictim:

An interesting sidebar to the Polygamist story in Texas surrounds the custody hearing being held in San Angelo...

Quote:
About 350 lawyers from throughout Texas are converging on San Angelo to represent free of charge the 416 children and scores of parents caught up nearly two weeks ago in a raid on the compound.

A marathon child-custody hearing is set for Thursday (17th). Because of the size of the case, the Texas state bar called for volunteer lawyers to represent the children, as well as any parents who want to fight for custody.

San Angelo is a town of about 90,000. Lawyers will stay for what they believe to be at least two nights - some will stay at the homes of local lawyers...

...with the remainder being accommodated by local farmers.

Quote:
H, I know there is a joke in there somewhere...

Ya mean like, "Didja hear the one about the traveling lawyer and the farmer's daughter?" (That's as far as I've got, so far...)

It was like that when we got here!

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:15 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
...what consenting adults do to each other in the name of – whatever – does not concern me, but the abuse of unsuspecting minors, imo, is wrong and should not be protected in the name of any particular deity.

Yup. And yup. From what I've read (and been reading more, lately), the fundamentalist Mormons are basically just another fringe group who've taken to heart the things that the religion's founder, Joseph Smith, actually said, preached, and published (things which the more mainstream Mormons have since renounced, but which WERE PREACHED AND PRACTICED BY THEIR FOUNDER). Plural wives, "marriage" when the girls are able to bear children (or when they're able to bear the weight of a grown man on top of them...), etc.

Seems to me some pervert (Smith) just decided to codify as a "religion" his desire to fuck little girls. You can call it a religion all you want, but that don't make it right.

Ditto the Catholics and their NAMBLA-pamby ways.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:59 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

the difference between a grocery store and a church is that the grocery store is selling milk and meat...the church is selling its moral authority.

I certainly agree that from my perspective they are no different. They are both businesses. But anybody who purchased the moral authority of a church that does what it can to cover up sexual abuse cases(the current pope apparently had a hand in that)should be looking at getting a refund.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:02 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

FINN: Churches, the military, cults, police, business... you'll find beatings, harassment, initiations beyond the pale, torture, pedophilia in all of them at one point or another. IMHO responsibility should float to the top, unless the organization can show that it tried to prevent (proactively) and to eliminate retroactively) criminal activity. I'm tying this one back to the "Do You Support Our President?" thread because the organization IS responsible for the "culture" that it's members inhabit.

Talk to any Human Resources Department and they'll tell you the same thing.

FREM: If the girls have undergone physical exam (and I believe they have) that would certainly reveal if underage girls are non-virgins, have signs of sexual intercourse (bruising etc.), have borne children. If the practice of marrying off and impregnating underage girls is as widespread as has been suggested, then physical evidence will be easy to find, and a case could be made based on that evidence irrespective of what the children have been taught to say.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:42 AM

Siggy, my concern is that in spite of such evidence the case is polluted beyond repair by the over the top tactics, playing fast and loose with the regulations (possibly invalidating evidence obtained) and the media circus of press involvement as a propaganda tool.

I'd like to see the perps fry too, but when we start lookin the other way folk who bend the rules, we're soon to find those rules bent around our necks.

I am hoping they can salvage a case out of this, but am also highly doubtful it's any kind of possible at this point.

While I doubt he'd admit it, Hero knows exactly why I am pissed off and could probably articulate it in explicit detail if he wanted to - it's annoying as hell to have a perfectly good case wrecked by some gung-ho asshole with no respect for proper procedure.

-F

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:55 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
FINN: Churches, the military, cults, police, business... you'll find beatings, harassment, initiations beyond the pale, torture, pedophilia in all of them at one point or another. IMHO responsibility should float to the top, unless the organization can show that it tried to prevent (proactively) and to eliminate retroactively) criminal activity. I'm tying this one back to the "Do You Support Our President?" thread because the organization IS responsible for the "culture" that it's members inhabit.

Then you are responsible for every criminal on the street, since your point can easily be extended to society as a whole.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Then you are responsible for every criminal on the street, since your point can easily be extended to society as a whole.

HUH????

No, it can't. Because it has to do with lines of authority... surely you've heard of that!

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:43 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

And of course you imagine yourself outside of those lines of authority.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:21 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Just to be clear, I wasn't making generalisations about Catholics or Catholic priests, just legal liability.

Oh, well in that case your dead wrong. The members of the church have no liability for the misdeeds of the individual priests or the Church's coverup.

That's like making you responsible for you neighbor's failure to meet City 'Use of Land' laws. After all, you live there, same neighborhood, and did nothing to make him clean it up and you never moved away.
H

I wasn't saying that every individual Catholic should be sued for the actions of a few priests. The Catholic church should have the same liability as any other group or corporation. When a corporation gets sued for wrongdoing by one of their employees, all the stock holders in the corporation are punished when a huge reward goes to a plaintiff. The only way a Catholic can avoid being held liable is to leave the church. Just like the share holder in the corporation has the option of cutting their losses by selling their stock when a lawsuit is announced, a Catholic is free to minimize their future losses by leaving the church.

As far as your bad neighbor argument goes, I might have some liability if we are both in the same homeowners association. If the neighbor doesn't comply with City laws, and then abandons the property, the City will then come after the HOA.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:38 AM

Mister Grigg makes some interesting points, although I am not sure I would fully agree with him.
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2008/04/your-children-are-ours.ht
ml

He does however point out some of the procedural misdeeds, and the outright hypocrisy of texas officials regarding this case in relation to their own concept of public welfare.

One thing that jumps out at me is the intent to permanently take custody rights even from parents with utterly no evidence of wrongdoing, as a gesture of contempt and usurpation on behalf of the state - which burns me to no end given the well known horrors of the texas foster care system, and known, proven complicity of it's social service dept in one of the freak-feeder food chains as victim procurement.

Our people are on full all hands alert, those with legal training are volunteering as gaurdian ad litem and others are monitoring such as is possible without invasion of privacy.

If even ONE of those kids gets dumped into the feeder system or handed off to one of the known perps via the foster care system, you folks are gonna see a shitstorm of epic proportions in any way we can cause it to happen.

Children are not a commodity, nor are they property, and both the FLDS and the State of Texas need desperately to learn this lesson, and should they push matters in the direction it seems to be going, that just might happen.

-Frem

Guardian Ad Litem
"Guardians ad litem are also appointed in cases where there has been an allegation of child abuse, child neglect, PINS, juvenile delinquency, or dependency. In these situations, the guardian ad litem is charged to represent the best interests of the minor child which can differ from the position of the state or government agency as well as the interest of the parent or guardian. These guardians ad litem vary by jurisdiction and can be volunteer advocates or attorneys."

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And of course you imagine yourself outside of those lines of authority.

Again... HUH?????

I'm not "the boss" of a LOT of people! I may have a moral or ethical obligation to do "something" about criminal activity... such as call 911, defend someone, or act as a helping witness... and I've done all of those.... but if I'm not in charge of the person committing the criminal act I'm not liable.

It's all about authority and responsibility. If I'm the officer/ manager/ bishop/ in charge and I claim some sort of authority over certain people I also have responsibility for what they do under my authority. I'm not 100% liable ... there are exceptions for what I couldn't reasonably have known... but I AM liable. In the case of the Catholic Church, for example, there WERE Bishops who simply transferred "problem priests" from parish to parish, knowing full well the history of complaints. Clearly they knew what was going on and they didn't stop it, so they're liable. And the same goes for Cardinals.. if they could have reasonably known what the Bishops under their authority were doing but didn't stop it, they're also liable.

So I have absolutely no idea what you're driving at.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 3:37 PM

CRUITHNE3753

Well they did once have a guy in charge who had a name that sounded something like "Bring 'em Young"...

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 4:00 PM

Erm, I generally would not assign responsibility to the management of a church, but for obvious evidence of complicity.

Primary amongst which is the Church of the Servants of the Paraclete.

Go on, look it up - they used it as a recycling center to stuff known offenders till the heat died down, and then from there sent them to new, unsuspecting parishes without even the courtesy of warning them of the perps history.

Just sayin.

My current problem is how to keep an eye on 416 people without violating their rights or privacy, so that they don't disappear into the black hole of a feeder system on us.

-F

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 4:00 PM

Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I'm sure these kids are going to be in much better hands when the Beast known as US Gov has property ownership over their lives till they're 18 years old.

Any even minute chance at happiness these kids ever had is completely out the window now. The government, pigs, lawyers and that judge have successfully turned their lives upside down and they will all be ruined.

You people watch too many cop shows and Lifetime movies. Who the hell are you to judge how a separatist society runs? Sure there are bad apples in every bunch, but they should be weeded out. To raid the enitre place and uproot their entire way of life over one single phonecall claiming abuse is absurd. It's a mega-waste of Texas taxpayer dollars for one, but it's blaming everybody for what one person did.

No class, no respect, no recognition to the right to privacy and the right to practice your religion..... No suprise, right?

I am very ashamed of my Government on a daily basis, but it's things like this and Waco that really take the cake. When we abuse our own citizenry.

You may go back to celebrating your victory "for the children" now, you crazy mob.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:40 PM

KAYKAYF

just so you all know FLDS member are NOT Mormons, sorry this just bugs the b-jesus outta me.

hi

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 7:58 PM

EMPIREX

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
While I share your objections to the heinous acts preformed by so-called religious leaders and my sympathies go out to the victims - I’m not sure I think the church is obligated to pay reparations.

I think people are furious with the Catholic church because they covered it up. When a family or victim would come forward with allegations of abuse, instead of kicking the pedophile priest or bishop out of the church, removing them from their post and excommunicating them... they quietly sent them to other diocese where no one knew what they had done. So these pedophiles were able to continue molesting children in their new churches.

Disgusting.

While the church shouldn't be held responsible for something they had no knowlege of, the minute they found out about it and did nothing to stop it, and then aided in covering up the crimes, they ARE accountable. Absolutely. They should be held responsible for their actions, or non-action, as the case may be.

We sue doctors and lawyers for malpractice. Why not a church leader?

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:17 PM

EMPIREX

I agree. If a man and 5 women are happy in a polygamist relationship, who am I to say they can't do that? Even raising children in that environment - if they're happy and well-cared for, loved and nutured, who cares if it's two moms or two dads or 5 moms and 1 dad?

What I take issue with is this deep-seated belief that a teenage girl is chattel - to be taken in hand, trained like a proper dog, deflowered, and turned into a baby-machine.

Suddenly, I'm having a flash back of Hard Candy. This whole story makes me want to grab a scalpel and do some gelding of my own - particularly on some "godly" and "righteous" old farts.

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 8:44 PM

That's all well and good, but honestly I don't see how it's any of your business. Or mine, or anyone's on this board. When you and I live in a Utopic society that isn't teeming with disease, decadence, inhumanity and "Democracy" at the helm, then yes, I think we can start telling other people that their way of life is wrong. Any society that needs to pop pills on a daily basis to cope is not a role model and should not be telling people how to live, in my opinion.

That being said, Big Gov had no more business upturning that society's life and lively hood and turning it into a media circus than they did doing the same thing in Iraq.

WMD's in Iraq, rape in Texas. It's all the same bullshit spin to get the proles behind the Goverenment's only desire, which is apparently the Imperialization of the entire world and to one day use the ever-improving technology at their disposal to keep tabs on every single human being in the world, micro-manage every aspect of their lives, and know everything there is to know about them. One day that six inches between your ears won't be private anymore either.

For some, like me, who blog their feelings on these matters, a lot of what was in there is already on the books. I'm not too concerned for my own well being because I'm not doing anything wrong, but I'm quite confident that there are people keeping tabs on my internet usage. I know for a fact that it happens at my job, but it's possible that I've pissed more than a few people off up on the hill that I shouldn't be pissing off by not being a good little Bushbot and just shutting up and washing my War down with a couple of tabs of Soma every day.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:38 PM

EMPIREX

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
That's all well and good, but honestly I don't see how it's any of your business. Or mine, or anyone's on this board. When you and I live in a Utopic society that isn't teeming with disease, decadence, inhumanity and "Democracy" at the helm, then yes, I think we can start telling other people that their way of life is wrong.

Were you replying to MY post? If so, I don't think you read what I wrote.

I find it offensive that my fellow "sisters" are forced to marry lecherous men that are old enough to be their fathers or grandfathers. I find it offensive that this little "utopian" society condones rape. I find it offensive that they use young women as brood mares.

That being said, once a young woman turns eighteen, the law says she can do what she wants. So if she chooses to be one of ten wives, that's her business. If she wants to be a part of a society that can take her children away from her if she misbehaves, that's her business.

On a similar note, did anyone read about these two moronic Christian fundamentalist parents who let their daughter slip into a TREATABLE diabetic coma and die? Yeah, they just prayed over her and expected a miracle. Apparently, they'd never heard the phrase, "God helps those who help themselves."

These fundamentalists could learn a thing or two from the Amish. The Amish encourage their young people to go out into the world and decide if they want to stay in the community or leave. While the adults may or may not use modern medicine, they recognize that they do not have the right to deny their children proper medical care.

My point is, once a person is of legal age to make decisions about how to live their life, the government shouldn't interfere with those decisions. But if a parent or community leader is trying to force a child to participate in religious practices that are ILLEGAL or physically harmful, then yeah, the government should step in. Absolutely.

"Can you, for a moment, imagine how depressing it is to teach one thousand years of masculine ineptitude? Why do you think there are so few women historians? I'll tell you why. Because history is not such a frolic for women as it is for men... History is a commentary on the various and continuing incapabilities of men. History is women following behind with a bucket and a mop." - Alan Bennett, "The History Boys"

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 9:47 PM

I got all you said the first time, and I admit that it's hard to disagree with a lot, if not most of it. I'm just saying that before people sit back in judgement of these people who's lives were upturned by our own Government pulling a hurricane Katrina on them, they might want to take a step back and look at just how screwed up their own lives are, and the fact that the very Government that is "saving" your sisters from the alleged lecherous men is the very same Government which has laid the groundwork for the current miseries in today's Western Democracy.

Hardly calling their life Utopian here, just making a commentary that in general our own lives and livelyhood is just about as far from Utopian as you can get without each and every one of us being physically collared, and all things considered, I find it quite rediculous that we're at the forefront of spreading (forcing) our wonderful Democracy on everyone else and making sure that they're a secular a people as we are. Hey, ain't life great when we replace religion with Idol Worship a 'la Kelly Clarkson? I know I feel blessed.

Now give me my pills.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:14 PM

Empire - It's not just girls, it's children as a whole.

See, one of my primary axes to grind is that nowhere in our law, our society, do we ever actually consider them human beings, consider them PEOPLE - till they hit the magic number.

Until that point they are legally and socially considered in a class just below pets, beloved property, but property just the same, and I mean below pets cause if you did some of the same crap to a pet that folks do to kids, you would be charged for it.

That bein said, the state which has formented that environment is no proper caretaker either, there's no emotional bond, no logical reason for them to care other than as a matter of social control.

When it comes to hair splitting, barring an iron-clad, proven case of sustained abuse at the hands of their parent(s) - the State has no business nor any moral authority to make value judgements.

Many of our social ills stem directly from the way we treat our children, and the horrors we often visit upon them in the work "raising" or "educating" them, to offer them in a place in a society that, from a childs viewpoint, is often nightmarish, dystopic even, and when they choose to reject it, we bring out the square peg hammer and apply it quite liberally, don't we ?

They ain't pets, livestock or a commodity, they are PEOPLE - but until you, I, or anyone else can ram that through to society as a whole, and the State besides, it's just gonna be the way it is.

One should ponder the influence of those who do connect with the younger generation and treat them as human beings, given the plain and simple fact that some day a percentage of those kids is gonna be in charge.

Ponder it good, and consider your fate once it is in their hands.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, April 18, 2008 2:42 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
No class, no respect, no recognition to the right to privacy and the right to practice your religion..... No suprise, right?

I am very ashamed of my Government on a daily basis

What religion? It was the farthest thing from a religion imaginable. Their leader Jeffs is a convicted pedophile rapist, and the entire cult compund was set up as a pedophile's fantasy land. There are no records of any legal marriages, no records of any birth certificates....brothers and sisters don't even know the other, or who their parents are...they were born and raised for one purpose..to provide future sexual deviant opportunities for the criminal pedophiles running the place. These women are zombies.....females with zero self-respect for themselves, females willing to sacrifice their own identities to become dominated living sex toys for the male dominators. And as far as you being ashamed of the Government....what else is new?

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Friday, April 18, 2008 3:10 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That's all well and good, but honestly I don't see how it's any of your business. Or mine, or anyone's on this board. When you and I live in a Utopic society that isn't teeming with disease, decadence, inhumanity and "Democracy" at the helm, then yes, I think we can start telling other people that their way of life is wrong.

This is the rhetorical tactic of demanding perfection from the opposing view.

Quote:
That being said, Big Gov had no more business upturning that society's life and lively hood and turning it into a media circus than they did doing the same thing in Iraq.

I know that you don't like laws and government in general, but they WERE breaking the laws of Texas (and most other states) by enforcing pedophilia. So the state did have authority over those folks, unlike Iraq over whom we have no authority whatsoever. BTW I think laws against pedophilia are GOOD laws. Are you so disgusted with "the government" that you can's spare any disgust for pedophilia?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Friday, April 18, 2008 3:28 AM