Screw 'em if they hate us by 6ixStringJack

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
[]b]Canada is just the quiet smart kid in class who doesn't need to be starting anything because they got nothing that anybody really wants and with the bully of the west right next store they have the privilege of keeping a low profile and living minimalistic lives. Nothing bad there, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

At least you see that we're a bully. So why don't you ask the question Do we HAVE to be The Bully of the West? What, exactly, will fall apart if The Bully is gone? I think you should think long and deeply about that question, because if you come up with an honest answer you'll uncover some assumptions that underly your thinking... assumptions so deep you don't even know they exist. And in my book, invisible assumptions are the enemy of clear thought.

But second, what do you mean by "leading minimalistic" lives? I have a couple of close Canadian friends and their lives are anything but "minimalistic"! They work hard. She's a neuropsychiatrist with a private practice (Yes, private practices thrive under Canada's "socialized medicine") and he's a QA manager for an international pharma. They work hard, travel extensively, are close to their families, and have rewarding lives so... ??? He had also lived in the USA for a number of years, and they both look at our country and shake their heads. The difference is that when he got lymphoma ten years ago, he got the full treatment including an autologous bone marrow transplant and didn't have to worry about running out of insurance.

The only thing "minimal" about Canada is their military budget IMHO. Now, if you want to talk about people being forced to live minimal lives, you should visit Mexico. For the average Mexican, the only "full" part of their lives is uncertainty and stress.

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You mention many other countries further up the scale on all the good things in life. I'm just wondering if I'm talking to a world traveler or I'm talking to someone who has read a lot of books that agree with their own pessimistic viewpoint.

Not a world traveler myself (except Mexico and Canada) but ny SO has close friends who vacation in Europe at least once every two years (This year it's a biking holiday in Germany.) and relatives who live in Hungary. What they notice is that people are not as stressed in Europe.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6: Canada is just the quiet smart kid in class who doesn't need to be starting anything because they got nothing that anybody really wants and with the bully of the west right next store they have the privilege of keeping a low profile and living minimalistic lives. Nothing bad there, but you're comparing apples to oranges.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM: At least you see that we're a bully. So why don't you ask the question Do we HAVE to be The Bully of the West? What, exactly, will fall apart if The Bully is gone? I think you should think long and deeply about that question, because if you come up with an honest answer you'll uncover some assumptions that underly your thinking... assumptions so deep you don't even know they exist. And in my book, invisible assumptions are the enemy of clear thought.

I've said that 1,000 times in this board Signy. This is nothing new. It's not as if I've been Rap and suddenly had a revelation. So don't talk to me like I am because I happen to disagree with less than half of what you're saying. My history speaks for itself and I feel no need to go into details about it.

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But second, what do you mean by "leading minimalistic" lives? I have a couple of close Canadian friends, and like Rue I've visited Canada often (tho not as often as her.) Their lives are anything but "minimalistic"! They work hard. She's a neuropsychiatrist with a private practice (Yes, private practices thrive under Canada's "socialized medicine") and he's a QA manager for an international pharma. They work hard, travel extensively, are close to their families, and have rewarding lives so... ??? He had also lived in the USA for a number of years, and they both look at our country and shake their heads.

Good for them. My step sister is a doctor and her husband is a neuro-surgeon. I don't even talk to them much but I can't imagine they wouldn't be living the high life too... Unfortunatly, most of us aren't THOSE kinds of people. But do we spend like we're not THOSE kinds of people? Don't we..... really?

Go ahead and blame it on Capitalism Signy, but the majority of us (see: a vast majority of the 99% not in the top 1% of wealth in the country) spend beyond our means. Is that the government's fault too? Should they have coddled us and told us all how to live our lives the last 50 years? Maybe they could have gotten that done successfully by wiretapping all of our phones since WWII?

I

smoke and I'm told that it's my choice and I should have to deal with the consequences. Fair enough. What about a country addicted to debt? Are you going to blame your Government for that one too? Are you going to blame them for a majority of people getting themselves so deep in a hole that they become puppets and yes-men?

When does personal accountability come into play?

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The only thing "minimal" about Canada is their military budget IMHO.

My point exactly. Wouldn't it be nice to be the smart kid who slides by under the radar with little worries when the bully is right next door drawing all of the attention? With 11 aircraft carrriers (see: bloody behemoth death-machines of the sea).... and two more updated ones under construction now?

WITHOUT THE US, IF ANYTHING EVER WERE TO HAPPEN, CANADA WOULD BE ROLLED IN 5 SECONDS.....

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Now, if you want to talk about people being forced to live minimal lives, you should visit Mexico.

Who said anything about forced? I respect Candadians for living within their means. I didn't talk down about their standard of living. When you have a level head and separate your wants from your needs it's not too difficult to make a decent living and save a nest egg up (see: the means to personal freedom). Good for Canada for doing it.

This all comes down to personal accountability and your general person there compared to their fiscal counterpart here is wiser with their money simply becuase of the fact that they've never had a rediculous overabundance of wealth to splurge on shit and spend like they shit gold.

We got more toys here. Who's to blame?

And you don't need to inform me of how Mexican's got it. My step father lived in a boxcar growing up picking cotton. I'm not kidding... Imagine his dismay when his step-sons were lazy Nintendo playing idiots who thought they could lounge around doing nothing and live forever.... Can you say culture clash?

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Not a world traveler myself (except Mexico and Canada) but ny SO has close friends who vacation in Europe at least once every two years (This year it's a biking holiday in Germany.) and relatives who live in Hungary. What they notice is that people are not as stressed in Europe.

Yeah... and Winston tried to get the old man to tell him about how life was before Big Brother was in the picture and realized that he couldn't get a legitimate picture of how it really was from the viewpoint of a man who saw the world of that time through the eyes of a human being who will interepret it much differently than the next human being, us all being snowflakes and all......

I'm sure people you know have it great. But don't kid yourself that there aren't plenty of people in these other countries which, just like our country, don't even have an internet voice because even if they had hookups to their little spot under the bridge they wouldn't be able to afford dialup.

I know we ain't perfect Signy. And I want us to improve, vastly.

Just stop painting the picture that everywhere but here and Iraq is paradise. (Oh... and Mexico too)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:31 AM

Just because I truly believe that Our Country is much better in many regards to most other countries in many aspects does not make me a tunnel-visioned die Hard Rightist O'Rielly zombot.

So sue me. I belive that. You going to help me make other people in the world believe that like they used to, or are you going to join the world mob and stone a country that's veered off it's path to death for not being perfect?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:58 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
I've said that 1,000 times in this board Signy. This is nothing new. It's not as if I've been Rap and suddenly had a revelation. So don't talk to me like I am because I happen to disagree with less than half of what you're saying. My history speaks for itself and I feel no need to go into details about it.

So... what makes it so necessary that we continue to be The Bully of the West? What would happen if we were to collectively have a revelation and decided to change our foreign policy? You haven't come up with an answer.

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Good for them. My step sister is a doctor and her husband is a neuro-surgeon. I don't even talk to them much but I can't imagine they wouldn't be living the high life too... Unfortunatly, most of us aren't THOSE kinds of people.

My SO and I have similar professional lives. But WE spend our time trying to figure out how to insure our daughter once we're gone. Because the USA doesn't have universal health care, with our daughter's medical history it would be impossible for her to even buy medical insurance. So in order to ensure her care, we have to do all kinds of contortions just to make sure that she gets on the Medicare/ Medicaid roll. It's stressful and stupid and our system is wasteful and corrupt.

But, to go back to our friends... their families are not like they are. His dad was a train maintenance guy, his mom was a stay-at-home. They had four kids to support. "She" never knew her dad, but her mom is a certified nutcase. Their parents, siblings etc are not exactly international jet-setters, but their lives are also not "minimalist"! But he recalls, to this day, the day Canada went to universal health insurance. (He was a kid at the time) He said the stress level in his family went way down.

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But do we spend like we're not THOSE kinds of people? Do we really? Go ahead and blame it on Capitalism Signy, but the majority of us (see: a vast majority of the 99% not in the top 1% of wealth in the country) spend beyond our means. Is that the government's fault too?

No, it's capitalism's fault.

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I smoke and I'm told that it's my choice and I should have to deal with the consequences. Fair enough. What about a country addicted to debt?

6ix for god's sake get some education in economics! Capitalism is addicted to debt! It can't possibly exist any other way! That was Keynes' brilliant solution to the problem of the Great Depression!

Once you have sucked profit out of the "lower classes" ... how are they going to buy your products??? The only way to prevent the economy from collapsing is to put money back into the hands of that vast majority of people who do the vast majority of buying. It's supposed to work that way. Is it unstable? Will it lead to a greater collapse later? Well, it depends on how sustainable that cash flow is. If it's based on credit (like a housing bubble) it'll eventually fall apart. NOBODY SAID CAPITALISTS WERE SMART.

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Are you going to blame your Government for that one too?

Well, yes, I am. The government itself has gotten deeply into debt, and THAT is a direct cause of the falling dollar. So, you tel me...

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Are you going to blame them for a majority of people getting themselves so deep in a hole that they become puppets and yes-men?

Puppets? You're a puppet 6ix. AFA getting into a hole: About half of personal bankruptcies are due to medical costs. HALF. Now, I don't care how well-prepared, independent and frugal you think you are, a medical disaster will ruin your life.

As for the rest: You should read Nickel and Dimed

Quote:
Bringing funds all for unexpected expenses, approximately $1300, she leaves her home and her middle-class existence, with a few personal items and her car, for a few months of low wage work.

Starting off in her backyard, Ehrenreich searches for lodging and a job in neighboring Key West, Florida. After securing jobs at two restaurants and flirting with a one-day stint as a housekeeper, she works for one month before succumbing to an extremely busy night at one of her restaurant jobs and walking out mid-shift. Ehrenreich subsequently heads to Portland, Maine for a fresh start.

Beginning anew, Ehrenreich lands two more jobs after a four day search, one as an assistant at a nursing home and another as a maid at a cleaning franchise. She is again worn down by her workload and work-related stress and leaves. Her final destination is Minneapolis, Minnesota, where she is employed in the women's department at a Wal-Mart before ultimately ending her investigation. Even with the odds stacked on her side -- a car, no dependents, and initial funds -- Ehrenreich fails to achieve a sustainable lifestyle.

I "get" that you think that everyone has your personal history of falling into debt, and that if YOU could climb out of it so can they.

I would bet that not everyone has your IQ, education, or a kindly grandma. Lots of people also have children. Now, I've seen plenty of people make bad financial decisions... truly, I have. I'm in the process of garnishing someone's wages because her stupid and repeated financial mistakes. But IMHO they don't represent more than about 15% of the overall US debt problem (seeing as the govt is the biggest debtor). OUR debt problem is the result of being turned into a Third World country by the capitalists. Of squeezing people until they can;t live... even "minimally"... on a paycheck. And THAT is capitalism doing what it does best: impoverishing people.

And now, I have to go to work.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 5:17 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And THAT is capitalism doing what it does best: impoverishing people.

Why are we not all communist then?

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 5:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Why are we not all communist then?

Turn it arouind... Why are we not all capitalists then?

Most of the world lives in an economic system which is not like the USA. More than 1.5 billion (that's with a "b") live under nominal communism (China, Russia) another half billion under tightly regulated production, which includes Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc. (Did you know that half of Taiwan's industries are nationalized?) Another half billion or so live under socialism (the EU). About 2.5 billion (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, most of Africa, and parts of South and Central America) live on farms in peasant, primitive, or plantation economies.

6ix- Let me make this as clear as possible. You say that if people stop being addicted to debt and live w/in their means then our problems will be over. I've been saying for well over a year... ask Fletch2... that capitalism is unsustainable and depends on debt ot keep it going.

Now, you yourself have said that the vast majority... 99%... spend more than we earn. What would happen to the economy if everyone were forced to live within their means?

Well, that is exactly what's happening because of the "credit crunch": people are being forced to live w/in theri means. And yanno what? The economy's collapsing as predicted.

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 5:53 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
More than 1.5 billion (that's with a "b") live under nominal communism (China, Russia)...

And where do you suppose the average Chinese/Russian person rank themselves on your standard of living scale?

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
About 2.5 billion (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, most of Africa, and parts of South and Central America) live on farms in peasant, primitive, or plantation economies.

And this is better in your eyes than capitalism?

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So... what makes it so necessary that we continue to be The Bully of the West? What would happen if we were to collectively have a revelation and decided to change our foreign policy? You haven't come up with an answer.

A lot of the people America's foreign policy has pissed off in the last fifty-sixty years will be turning around for pay back, sig. It would be like if Imperial Rome stopped sending the legions to the frontier. In fact that did happen, and the Romans started employing contractors like the Visigoths, who then turned around and sacked Rome. If American's want to change their foreign policy, it can't be done in one fell swoop, you'll have to do it gradually, and it'll be a hell of a lot of hard work. It's very easy to make enemies, and very difficult to lose them.

American's do sometimes seem to have this victim complex, perhaps it's just something that happens to the top dog; there was something similar in British sentiment of the 19th century, people always thought someone was about to invade the home islands. From the Revolutionary French under Napolean, the Second French Empire (again under a Napolean, the nephew this time), to the Prussians, there wasn't a decade when the British, who ruled a quarter of the world and were the unquestioned masters of the sea, weren't worried about someone invading. But back to the point, American's have often lamented why everyone hates them. And, back in the day it wasn't actually true, there was much in the way of nationalist jokes, usually along the lines of how all Americans are fat and stupid, but nothing you wouldn't find American's doing to other nationalities. But now, now things are different, people do actually hate America, not just the extremists, but there's growing anti-American sentiment in Europe (not that 'Freedom Fries' America has much of a moral majority to comment there). America had a fair bit of goodwill in Europe and elsewhere, during Clinton's presidency he helped to broker the lasting peace in Northern Ireland, and the somewhat more strained, but nonetheless lasting, peace in the Baltic's. Believe it or not, whatever you guys think of your last president, internationally he was somewhat respected, and did America's world image and reputation a world of good. By working for peace, by working with the UN, rather than against it, he showed that America wanted to be a part of the international community, not ride roughshod over it.

Then ya'll had to go vote for the drooling Texan cowboy wanna be didantchya. The guy that embodies just about every terrible national stereotype the world has of American's. The guy who thinks peace can only be attained at the end of a smart missile, the guy who only has interest in working with the international community, when they're doing what they're told to do. The arrogant, swaggering, lone star, ignorant cowboy hick: you put him in charge, and it's going to take a lot of Clinton's to get the good faith and respect that that chump has pissed away, back.

It's not going to be as simple and as easy as pulling out of Iraq, staying in Iraq as you our is bad, just pulling out is worse. It's not going to be a matter of pulling troops in from overseas. It's not going to be a matter of bending over for the UN. Though with American's being used to bending over most of the rest of the world and shafting them, letting them stand and pull their trousers back up may seem like just that, largely to the American Nationalists, Neo-Cons and War hawks I imagine.

It's going to take hard work, and a willingness to not get your own way all the time in order to rebuild your image America. Because half of international politics is compromise, and not getting your own way all the time, that's just how it is kiddies. America will have to show some contrition, not saying "yeah, we were wrong and everything is our fault since the dawn of time!!111!!", which is the spin geezer will no doubt attempt to put on my words, but by admitting that: you know what, yeah America shouldn't have just said fuck you UN, when the UN's decision wasn't to their liking, and just go and do whatever the hell you wanted anyway.

AURaptor makes a big thing about how it was ok for the US to invade Iraq because of this or that UN resolution, or this or that vote, but when it comes down to it, why should Iraq cow-down to the UN's judgement, when America won't? America's foreign policy has become a farce that can be summed up in one sentence "do as we say, not as we do". Then American's wonder why the international community sees America as a hypocritical arrogant bully?

The best thing for America to do right now is to open dialogue with the nations, like Iran, that aren't half as bad as American propaganda says. Sure, they're not happy joy joy fun land, but America will enjoy more success with them at the bargaining table, than on the Battlefield. A bit of contrition in the UN would help, don't just pull out of Iraq, some gesture along the lines of "we made a mistake here, and we need help" could go along way. I'm not saying it will, but it would be better than nothing and at least you could say you tried. Getting the Arab nations on board with rebuilding Iraq is really required, but all that flies in the face of the corporate and national American interests that are holding sway, because just like the British in the 1920's, you're capitalising on Mesopotamia for your own interests, and it's pretty obvious. Cutting your losses, taking the hit and forgetting about milking the Iraqi government for resources and puppet potential will do more to stabilise the situation than a million years of occupation.

That's why, if Obama drops his insistence to pull out of Iraq the moment he gets into office, he's the closest candidate you've got to one capable of repairing America's international image.

Though if you want an American hegemony, slowly turning more insular and paranoid as it becomes isolated from the world community, until the point it collapses under it's own Imperial overstretch, there's always John McCain, I here he's going to stop the Mexicans, it depends what you think is more important.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And where do you suppose the average Chinese/Russian person rank themselves on your standard of living scale?

Russia's experiment with laizzes faire capitalism (1990-2000) was a complete and unmitigated disaster. Comparing one to the other, Russians did better under their version of communism, as rigid and inefficient as it was. They are now heading back towards some version of a nationalized economy. China is expanding fast. The local joke (I know someone who spends at least three weeks a year in the Chinese hinterland) is that the national bird of China is the construction crane.

But I'm not a big proponent of nominal communism, just as I'm not a big proponent of primitivism. I think we should be heading in the EU direction. If I had my 'druthers tho, my vote would be for "economic democracy".

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:15 AM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Just stop painting the picture that everywhere but here and Iraq is paradise. (Oh... and Mexico too)

Haven't been following all the thread, but want to pitch in a few things...

First, I am a bit of a traveler. Been to every corner of the US except the deep south. I've spent time in the Caribbean (and not at resorts - had work projects. Yeah, that sucked.

), Canada, western Europe, the Middle East, Turkey, parts of the ex-Soviet Union, and New Zealand. Again - these were mostly work trips, and involved spending a lot of time with the locals.

One thing I can tell you 6ix, is that all these people I've met spend a lot less time talking and thinking about the US than you seem to believe. In fact, they'd ask me questions about America more to be polite than because they really cared. They were much more interested in talking about their own home countries.

And when foreigners visit here - my company holds meetings where we bring folks from Euroope, Central Asia, China, and the Middle East to the states - they may marvel at our nice pavement and are thrilled to go to WalMart and buy cheap clothes to take home. But believe me, they are more than happy to go home. Oh yes they are! They LOVE their countries, flaws and all. Even if it is no paradies - and believe me, I've seen these places and in ways they are indeed far from paradise - they still LOVE their own ways of life. They look at all our wealth and "fancy ways" and say "Hmm. Interesting." And then they go home and forget about it, except for having a few stories to tell about how American is, same as you would tell stories about how China is or whatever.

This includes folks from poor and unstable countries. Even if many things are a challenge to them, they tend to focus on fixing their own country rather than: "I really wish I was in America." Or "I really wish we were just like America." Nope. Uh-uh. Not even a bit. To them, America is just a place over there, a distant country with a big ego and superiority complex. They think we're weird more than they envy or hate us.

It would do you good to travel. You might realize that the only people who put America on a mighty pedestal are Americans. Most of the rest really don't care.

The other thing I want to say: I do love my country. I have had opportunity to relocate - had a job offer in Europe that had the standard (for them) 35 hour work week and 5 weeks of vacation. (This was someone way up the thread meant by Americans working too much!) I turned it down because when I visited I just didn't feel at home there. There are things the states offer that I can't give up.

The reason my pride in my country doesn't display itself more often is that, since about 2002, the rightwing Bush propaganda machine - including folks on these boards - has redefined patriotism to mean In Support of Bush. For a while there, a wave of the American flag meant one thing: "I support Bush whole-heartedly no matter what he chooses to do." Anyone who argued against Bush was assumed to hate this country, which is absolute bullshit. It's been a battle to win the definition of patriotism back, to give it a more general definition again, so that we all can own it no matter our political affiliations.

My point is - instead of accusing people of not loving America, maybe you need to broaden your idea of what love of America means.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:05 AM

KHYRON

Nice post, Citizen. I'm not sure what you mean here, though, since it's a bit ambiguous:

Quote:
That's why, if Obama drops his insistence to pull out of Iraq the moment he gets into office, he's the closest candidate you've got to one capable of repairing America's international image.

Did you mean "if, once he gets into office, Obama drops his insistence [...]", or did you mean "if Obama would just drop his insistence [...]"? Either way, I'm not sure that'd be a good thing to do, since he'd be going back on a (big) campaign promise, and apart from that, if he reneges on this pledge of his, I think there'd be a lot of unhappy people around the world and it'd be a very bad start to trying to repair America's image internationally.

Btw, as far as I know, he plans to have a phased troop withdrawal over 16 months, perhaps longer if necessary, so it wouldn't be an immediate pull-out anyway.

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This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:16 AM

Khyron:

I mean that on the whole Obama is the most credible candidate, with the only approach that has any chance of repairing America's image, but withdrawing troops from Iraq, even phased over 16 months, would be pretty disastrous. The American Army is between Iraq and chaos, much like the British army was between Iraq and chaos in the 1920's/30's, and we know where that ended up.

Point is if America withdraws, Iraq goes to shit, and everyone blames America. That's Obama's policy, and, IMHO it's toadying to an American public that's got bored of a protracted conflict.

McCain's policy is no better. McCain's policy is to keep going as it is, with a slow burning civil war killing at a higher rate than Saddam's death squads, destroying what's left of America's image and basically keeping with the same arrogant "do as we say, not as we do" policy that's caused America to take a lot of ill will.

Obama's idea is one extreme, McCain's is another. The only way to save Iraq, it's people and America's image (not to mention her credit rating) is to find another way. Part of that, is to my mind holding up your hands, admitting going into Iraq with little plan, and the way it was handled was a mistake. Then asking, not demanding, for help. But not just help with man power and money, handing over administration and decision making to an international body, which includes Iraqi's and their neighbours as at least equal partners. Obama could even keep something like that on plan, making the handover a gradual plan over the course of 16 months...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:20 PM

You got an answer for everything Signy.

Why don't you move then?

Obviously America isn't for you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:23 PM

If Obama wins we'll just be a seat at the UN in 4 years, we will lose the right to bear and cigarettes will cost 20 bucks a pack. That won't bother him though, because when he wants to smoke he can just dip into that book money and buy a pack.

Yeah... Obama smokes. Good luck getting a picture of it though. He's already a liar in my eyes.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:31 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

It's funny, how we got the cigarette nazis from the crowd that wanted to 'legalize it' (pot) , back in the 60's.

That conundrum has always intrigued me.

I don't smoke, cigs or pot, but have no real problem with either. I grew up around smokers, so I sorta feel immune to the whole thing. Even sympathetic to them. ( As long as I'm not getting smoke blown in my face, mind you )

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
My point is - instead of accusing people of not loving America, maybe you need to broaden your idea of what love of America means.

I've already done that. If you're accusing my patriotism as mindless love of Bush, you've obviously never read any of my posts in here.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
If Obama wins we'll just be a seat at the UN in 4 years, we will lose the right to bear and cigarettes will cost 20 bucks a pack.

Let me adjust:

Though if you want an American hegemony, slowly turning more insular and paranoid as it becomes isolated from the world community, until the point it collapses under it's own Imperial overstretch, there's always John McCain, I hear he's not planning to do away with guns, Cigarettes or Alcohol, so that should please Oasis, it depends what you think is more important.

At any rate, he won't take guns and cigarettes away, he's black, man. He does need to give Rednecks anymore of an excuse :p.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:05 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You got an answer for everything Signy.

I'm older than dirt, I've been through a lot, and I've thought about it. I think that entitles me to have a few more ideas in my head than average, wouldn't you say?

Quote:
Why don't you move then?

Because I love my country. DUH.

Yanno Jack, mebbe you wouldn't feel so sick and tired if you just stopped defending.

You're a smart guy. Apply that brainpower.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:33 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
My point is - instead of accusing people of not loving America, maybe you need to broaden your idea of what love of America means.
I've already done that. If you're accusing my patriotism as mindless love of Bush, you've obviously never read any of my posts in here.

I mean much more than that, if you'll just put some effort into listening and thinking about it. Did you? At all? I'm thinking not, and let me explain why.

I have a friend who was in Tiananmen Square when the shit went down. She spent all her cash on the very long bus ride to get there and risked life and limb and personal freedom in order to protest a government she didn't agree with. Afterward, her family begged her to go to school in the US, partly because she was brilliant and could get into any school she wanted, but mostly because she was never going to sit back and keep her mouth shut, never going to play the game and act like she loved the government. She hated the system in power, though she did and still does love the culture and people of China. She has been in the states for over a decade now, living apart from her family and home because she feels unsafe voicing her critical opinions there.

6ix, just a few posts ago, you said: "You got an answer for everything Signy. Why don't you move then? Obviously America isn't for you." Obviously, your idea of patriotism is to make America much like communist China, where people who disagree with too much must leave.

Pardon me for thinking you have a mind sorely in need of stretching. I would ask if you've considered that love of country means hating the aspects of it that drag it down, but several people have suggested that concept and you don't seem to get it.

Your attitude - that seeing flaws means a total absence of love, that Signy should leave because he doesn't toe your line - is something I very much hate. But I'm glad as hell that in this country you can say such things without any consequences. Well, other than making yourself sound like a complete asshole.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, June 21, 2008 4:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

If Obama wins we'll just be a seat at the UN in 4 years, we will lose the right to bear and cigarettes will cost 20 bucks a pack. That won't bother him though, because when he wants to smoke he can just dip into that book money and buy a pack.

Hate to break it to you, but we ARE just a seat at the UN. Sure, we're on the Security Council, but other than that we're pretty much just another member nation.

As for the right to bear arms, you might want to check your Congresional websites. Search for "H.R.6257: Assault Weapons Ban Reauthorization Act of 2008 (Introduced in House)". Pay close attention to the Bill's sponsors - all Republicans!

You were saying?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:01 AM

wrong Mal....

Again, if you've read any of my posts the last few years, I'm one of the loudest in opposition to things that we do. There is a difference in how I voice it and how Signy voices it. Whenever Signy says anything it comes off as another America hate speech.

And Cit...

If I live in a country where guns have been banned and cigarettes can be taxed out of existance than nothing else matters because we've already lost the Government we used to have and there is nothing left for me to defend.

Oh... and there's no way in hell that I'm voting for McCain either. Both of them are media driven swine who will further the current agenda of destroying the constitution and enslaving the people.

My vote is still with Ron Paul. Unless a miracle happens, he won't be getting in, but I can sleep better at night knowing I didn't fall for one of the whore's tricks.

BTW.... Obama just said "Yes We Can!" to reinstating the FISA. He says that he's going to try to get the whole immunity for telco companies out of there, but

a) nearly impossible to do after the fact and if he really believed that he wouldn't have voted for the entirity of the act and..

b) how many politicians do you know who haven't lied to get a vote?

He's part of the Democratic run Senate which has a 12% confidence rate in recent Gallup polls (14% less than our president FYI). I mean, even a lone Republican from Illinois voted against FISA for chrissake.

Quote:
Rep. Tim Johnson (R-IL), voted against it. A spokesman told Ars that Johnson "voted that way, consistent with all of his past votes on the FISA bill, because he's worried about its impact on civil liberties, and he believes that the necessary authority for the intelligence agencies already exists. He's talked to people on the front lines, and the system works very effectively now.

But we want it to work better! We want to have unfettered access to every piece of information that anybody ever communicates over phone, email or text messaging. Since the phone company can't be sued, nobody will be held accountable for any abuses of our newly self anointed supreme power!!!!!!!!!

Queue evil maniacal laughter

Read about how the Rethugs and Demons had a big cocksucking fest over passing the FISA:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080621-congress-pats-itself-on-
back-as-it-caves-on-telecom-immunity.html

A Change too many of us are dumb enough to believe in:
http://rawstory.com/news08/2008/06/21/obama-ill-fight-to-strip-telecom
-immunity-from-fisa/

But he doesn't support the Real ID though:
http://news.cnet.com/Technology-Voters-Guide-Barack-Obama---page-2/210
0-1028_3-6224109-2.html

Oh.... why's that?

Quote:
By Barack Obama: "I do not support the Real ID program because it is an unfunded mandate, and not enough work has been done with the states to help them implement the program.

Right... a wolf in sheeps clothing then. I like how money is the motivating factor in that decision and the trampling of American's constitutional rights didn't factor into the equation.

Change..... Not in the next 4 years anyways.

More about the Real ID:
http://norealid.com/

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:18 AM

KHYRON

6ixstring, I'm with you on the FISA thing. Very disappointing to see how easily the Democrats capitulated.

------------------------------

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:26 AM

Half... HALF of them voted YES WE CAN!

Are you kidding me? All this talk about impeachment that never happened, or getting our boys and girls out of Iraq so they aren't killed for a meaningless and illegal war that never should have happened.... but HA HA John Stewart made a few jokes about it and we're just going along with the status quo again.

But FISA! There's no way this can be happening! Democrats... the champions of civil liberties.... caving into the President, this time even inflicting irreparable damages upon the Constitution!

Haha... Just kidding man. I'm not in the least suprised. Both parties are just different sides of the single party coin. Like I said before, it's the SOS, just a bit of a different overall flavor every 4 or 8 years.

People wanted change? Well you told change you didn't want him around.....

There's still time though. You know what I'm talking about. He hasn't gone anywhere. He's patiently waiting for America to wake up and join him.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
And Cit...

If I live in a country where guns have been banned and cigarettes can be taxed out of existance than nothing else matters because we've already lost the Government we used to have and there is nothing left for me to defend.

Oh... and there's no way in hell that I'm voting for McCain either. Both of them are media driven swine who will further the current agenda of destroying the constitution and enslaving the people.

My vote is still with Ron Paul. Unless a miracle happens, he won't be getting in, but I can sleep better at night knowing I didn't fall for one of the whore's tricks.

Fair enough, but last I checked you had a two party system

. The thing about Ron Paul is that he's always seemed to good to be true, for American voters at least. Anyone who can unite both sides of the political spectrum in a country with as violently partisan politics as the US, just sounds fishy to me.

But his policies toward the outside world are far more isolationist than America needs. He'd cut America off from the outside world, and try and retreat inside the shell of it's borders. At least that's my reading. Beyond the fact that'll have a disastrous long term effect on the American economy, nations that cut themselves off from the outside world near always turn paranoid, and end up sacrificing their civil liberties.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But his policies toward the outside world are far more isolationist than America needs. He'd cut America off from the outside world, and try and retreat inside the shell of it's borders. At least that's my reading. Beyond the fact that'll have a disastrous long term effect on the American economy, nations that cut themselves off from the outside world near always turn paranoid, and end up sacrificing their civil liberties.

The truth is brother that we have plenty within these boundaries if we were to rethink things fiscally and politically and with a little common sense and a little less "me" attitude. Way things are headed in the minds of American's today it ain't true, but it could be true. We have a great geographical spot in the world with perfect climate to grow more food than we'll ever need with our small population (in relation per square foot to China), we're surrounded by comparatively weak countries who are for the most part friendly surrounding us on the North and South and two very large and beautiful oceans protecting us on the West and East. Two countries, I might add, that without the rest of the world could really come to appreciate one another much more because we do have things to offer each other in a world sans Europe and Asia.

We're all relatively sane people on this half of the globe, at least in terms of self preservation. You got your bad apples in every bunch, but I don't view any threat on this side of the globe to be as scary as the movie Aliens. What I mean by that is the reason that Aliens was the scariest movie from my childhood is because they were bloodthirsty, maniacal killing machines who would stop at nothing and climb over each other to kill, with no regard for friendly fire or sacraficing themselves to kill.

I've never even known that this drive truly existed en mass in the world until recently, have you?

And besides that, before the FED and the lifting of trade embargos, what did we need anybody else for?

We still don't, spiritually and in terms of self sustinance on a basic level.

I mean, come on... I know a lot of you agree with me on a few points here. Why do we need embassies all over the world to make our presence known? Do we want a world where embassies from each country exist in every state here? Why are we going to war with other countries when a majority of the people don't agree with them? Would we want China or Russia to do the same now that they're becoming equally potent world powers?

I saw Red Dawn and I believe the answer to that is No... No we wouldn't.

EDIT: I reread your post Cit and I wanted to comment on this. I've never heard it before and thought I wanted to address my views on it.

Quote:
Anyone who can unite both sides of the political spectrum in a country with as violently partisan politics as the US, just sounds fishy to me.

I don't believe that to be true. I believe you are saying that his politics are far to the right, but that is not the case. Maybe that's what you heard more often in the news on that side of the ocean. The possibility that your Media is as corrupt as ours is has to occur to you at least once on a daily basis, being the thinking person you are. Maybe I'm wrong too, who knows.

Ron Paul is adamantly against the Real ID act. Something that all leftists should in spirit be just as adamant about. Ron Paul is against FISA. Something that we've just found out yesterday that Democrats aren't against as a majority... even our likely future president. Sure, he's for guns and he's not happy about abortion, and probably a million other things that you could quote to me now digging through the internet.... But he believes that the states should decide that. Less Federal money going to wars and building centralized power. That's what it's all about. If we had strong state governments who would stand together and oppose the Central beast, we wouldn't be in a war right now.

I want Choice. Choice we can believe in. Ron Paul. Yes WE Can!

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:46 AM

KHYRON

6ixstring, I'm also more disappointed than surprised by the Democrats giving up so easily on FISA (or war funding, while we're at it). That's why, were I an American, I would always consider myself a left-leaning independent and never a Democrat, because of stupid shit like this.

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
But his policies toward the outside world are far more isolationist than America needs. He'd cut America off from the outside world, and try and retreat inside the shell of it's borders. At least that's my reading.

That's how I saw it too, it's the main reason why I wouldn't vote for him.

Quote:
Beyond the fact that'll have a disastrous long term effect on the American economy, nations that cut themselves off from the outside world near always turn paranoid, and end up sacrificing their civil liberties.

Those things seem to be happening anyway.

------------------------------

This isn't my signature. I have to type this every time I make a post.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 5:49 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Whenever Signy says anything it comes off as another America hate speech.

No 6ix, it's a hate capitalism speech. Is there ANY airspace in your mind between America and capitalism, or is all just one big blob? I love America. But I'm tired of your pathetic whinging and misquoting and your silly attacks on me. Now, I've tried VERY hard not to personally attack you or denigrate your character or tell you to leave the USA but it seems that every time you run across an idea that make you uncomfortable you throw a little tantrum. And THEN the anti-liberty comes out! Oh, yes it does! You really DO want to be a little dictator, don't you? You have the prescription for how we can all* get nationalistic and isolationist. *Everybody sacrifices to fit into 6ix's view.

*But not the capitalists. Not the rich and powerful. You will NOT impose any responsibilities on the wealthiest and most powerful of us. And why?

Because you're a coward. Because they ARE rich. And powerful! Because our corporate masters might get mad at us! Because "something" might happen! We might actually have to take some responsibility! We might actually face consequences! You KNOW where the real power is and it scares you. So instead of attacking the REAL power you throw tantrums about politicians.

Politicians??? Politicians only hang on with our votes. Oooooh. Scary bunch, huh?

Grow up, son.

Quote:
and a little less "me" attitude

Tell that to the big and powerful. If anyone needs to tone down on the "me" attitude, it's them.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 7:21 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Bump for 6ix.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We still don't, spiritually and in terms of self sustinance on a basic level.

Really? You don't import Oil from the Middle East? Products from China? Mentioning China, if they called in your debts the American economy would collapse over night. It's kind of arrogant to assume that America is the only country in the world, that doesn't actually need to be a part of the world, yanno. Take a look at world history, the histories of China, Russia, Japan. Countries that isolate themselves atrophy, like muscles unused. They grow weak and wither, a fact a growing globalist United States used in the late 19th/early 20th century when it dictated trade agreements to the isolationist Japanese with just a few gunboats.

The US runs a massive trade deficit (over 800Billion Dollars in 2006), if the US is so massively self sufficient, and doesn't require trade with other countries, why is it so seldom in surplus? No nation can successfully stand alone Jack, those that try either give it up, or collapse. In every example of isolationism you find destructive paranoia about the outside world, and crippling economic stagnation.

Quote:
Would we want China or Russia to do the same now that they're becoming equally potent world powers?

Russia is a corrupt and bankrupt failing state, with little functional and viable military, China, despite having a huge army, has no power projection capability. The Chinese don't even have a single viable aircraft carrier.

Quote:
I don't believe that to be true. I believe you are saying that his politics are far to the right, but that is not the case.

How on Earth did you read that? No, I said he managed to unite the disparate warring partisans of the US. The US has some of the most viciously divided partisan politics I've ever seen, and when one guy's policies manage to unite both sides it sounds rather to good to be true.

Having said that, Ron Paul is a rather uncompromising libertarian, with a strong isolationist bent. Even in the rather right-wing skewed politics of the USA, that's a little more right than centre.

Quote:
Maybe that's what you heard more often in the news on that side of the ocean. The possibility that your Media is as corrupt as ours is has to occur to you at least once on a daily basis, being the thinking person you are. Maybe I'm wrong too, who knows.

Of course, but even if that's so, what possible objective would the British media have to slur an American candidate? The British don't vote in your elections.

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No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:30 AM

You're a simple minded idiot who only reads what they want to Signy. Keep painting me with the same brush you paint Rap with. You're only fooling yourself.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:32 AM

Quote:
Of course, but even if that's so, what possible objective would the British media have to slur an American candidate? The British don't vote in your elections.

No, but they sure have a lot to say about them, don't they? And boy do they love Obama too.

As for the rest of your post, you obviously didn't read mine so I'm not going to reply to yours. If you want to read it again, in its entirity, and you have something intelligent to say, I'll be glad to debate it with you.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:55 AM

I'm sorry you didn't understand my post. Tone down the arrogant nationalism and try again.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 11:13 AM

It's not arrogant nationalism.

You didn't catch my drift, or you purposely ignored it. Truth is we could go to bluebacks within 5 years saying to hell with any debts we owe. By that time we can drill our own oil and grow our own food without any need for you or anybody on the other side of the globe..... Plenty to go around on the west from Canada right on down to Punta Arenas and without all the crazy Muslim shit that you all have to put up with over there.

This, of course, would mean that we would have to scale back the materialism that most Americans have grown accoustomed to and we'd have to grow and be a lot more responsible, but it can be done.

Don't talk to me about how we need the world economy when since the world economy started we've racked up 12 trillion dollars deficit, much of that money we spent supporting and rebuilding countries we destroyed.

I'm talking about a world where America doesn't meddle in everyone elses lives because we are completely self sufficient and have no need to do so.

Don't you be arrogant and think for a second that we need you Cit.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 11:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
It's not arrogant nationalism.

You didn't catch my drift, or you purposely ignored it.

I caught it just fine. You believe that America is some how unique, and better than, the other nations in the world, so that it'll be the only nation in history that'll manage to successfully implement isolationism. Isolationism was the your general drift, was it not? It was the viability of isolationism was arguing against.

It's wholly arrogant to believe that America is apart and separate from the world. Entirely Nationalistic to believe Americans are inherently more worthy and better. I got your drift, really I did, I just don't find it as profound as you seem to think it must be, I'm sorry but I don't.

Quote:
Don't talk to me about how we need the world economy when since the world economy started we've racked up 12 trillion dollars deficit, much of that money we spent supporting and rebuilding countries we destroyed.

What does rebuilding countries that have been destroyed by America got to do with the world economy? When did the world economy start in your view anyway? There was world wide trade before America even existed, so here, at least I have no idea where you're coming from. You seem to be tying completely disparate threads that have no need nor want to be so tied.

Quote:
I'm talking about a world where America doesn't meddle in everyone elses lives because we are completely self sufficient and have no need to do so.

Not meddling is fine, but self sufficient isolationism is a pipe dream. America is a part of the world, not apart from it.

Quote:
Don't you be arrogant and think for a second that we need you Cit.

I never said America does need me. It is not, however, arrogant to say America is a part of the World, but it is arrogance that says it doesn't have to be.

You remind me of the Beyond Thirty: The Lost Continent by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Its up at Project Gutenberg, you should read it, you'll like it I promise.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:21 PM

Nope... you didn't get it

Read it again.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:41 PM

I got it just fine. You just don't like the implications, and you can't back up your assertions.

Try again.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:41 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No 6ix, it's a hate capitalism speech.

Hmm. I thought it was 'corporatism', you hated, or 'monopolism'. To most folks they're not identical to capitalism.

BTW. We've been over that "I don't hate America. I hate (fill in the blank)" earlier in the thread. Your statements still never reference anything but America until you're called out on them for your spite against the US.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:55 PM

Back up yours Cit.

It's all a "What If" scenario from either side, so I doubt you'll find any scientific evidence supporting your theory.

All I'm saying is we're the land of plenty here and we've got geographical borders that protect us. There's no arguing against that.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Back up yours Cit.

It's all a "What If" scenario from either side, so I doubt you'll find any scientific evidence supporting your theory.

My statements are based on history and precedent, yours are based on an assumption that America is different. Every nation that has given over to isolationism has gone down the same route, I'm not working on what ifs, you maybe, but I am not.

Quote:
All I'm saying is we're the land of plenty here and we've got geographical borders that protect us. There's no arguing against that.

That's not all you're saying. You're saying that, and then saying because of that America can isolate itself from the rest of the world. There is arguing with that, because America is far from the first nation to try isolationism, and many of the other nations that have tried it have had similar things going for them.

Your assumption is that America, and Americans are 'different' to people who live in other countries, and it's not the case.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:12 PM

We are.

With a bit of responsibility and self accountability, we can fully support all of our own activities with the resources available.

We are geographically protected from 95% of the bullshit going on in the world today.

And though according to polls we might not be the most educated country on average, we have plenty of brilliant minds to put it together.

What you fail to add to your equations of the past Cit is that we are positioned much more favorably than any great nation ever has been. We're not some little island surrounded by hostile folk that will be known one day as Airstrip One.

Sorry, but that's all true...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:57 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Eh, that's what I get for using a common computer!

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:10 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Ditto! I'll have to log in under my own name!

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:15 PM

CHRISISALL

Removed part: "You can't exist without buying from or working for a major corporation."
I was about to agree, except for homeless, thieves, and prisoners.

But since it got removed- nevermind.

isall

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:51 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Hmm. I thought it was 'corporatism', you hated, or 'monopolism'. To most folks they're not identical to capitalism.

Most folks don't even know what capitalism is. Like you, they conflate capitalism with democracy. It's only taken us 150 years to transition from an economy of relatively equal farmers (slaves excluded) to depending on large corporations for ... everything.

Quote:
BTW. We've been over that "I don't hate America. I hate (fill in the blank)" earlier in the thread. Your statements still never reference anything but America until you're called out on them for your spite against the US.

Prove it.

---------------------------------
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Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:53 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You're a simple minded idiot who only reads what they want to Signy. Keep painting me with the same brush you paint Rap with. You're only fooling yourself.

to repeat: "Now, I've tried VERY hard not to personally attack you or denigrate your character or tell you to leave the USA but it seems that every time you run across an idea that make you uncomfortable you throw a little tantrum."

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, June 22, 2008 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Citizen:
Your assumption is that America, and Americans are 'different' to people who live in other countries, and it's not the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
We are.

Hence my accusation of arrogant nationalism.

Quote:
We're not some little island surrounded by hostile folk that will be known one day as Airstrip One.

America was part of Oceania too. Besides, I was never talking about the UK, Britain has never followed an overtly Isolationist policy.

Quote:
Sorry, but that's all true...

Unfortunately, what you fail to drag into your nationalist equations, is that it isn't

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, June 23, 2008 3:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It's only taken us 150 years to transition from an economy of relatively equal farmers (slaves excluded) to depending on large corporations for ... everything.

Aww. I didn't realize you were an old hippie. Back to the land on a commune. Make all you need and don't depend on THE MAN.

So how much do you really want to give up to achieve your goal of not depending on the corporations for...anything? Somehow I don't see the local blacksmith making a FMRI or x-ray machine at his forge.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, June 23, 2008 4:48 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Aww. I didn't realize you were an old hippie. Back to the land on a commune. Make all you need and don't depend on THE MAN.

Once again, putting words in my mouth. What is it with you, Geezer- a reflex when you can't think of anything intelligent to say?

If anyone wants to know the definition of "strawman", just look up "Geezer".

Quote:
So how much do you really want to give up to achieve your goal of not depending on the corporations for...anything? Somehow I don't see the local blacksmith making a FMRI or x-ray machine at his forge.

Nothing. I thought that was pellucidly clear. Furthermore, depending on HOW you transition the economy away from what we have now (laizzes faire monopolism) most people would see improvement: greater access to resources, a better sense of fairness and certainty about the future, the assurance of a job for those motivated to work.

But you're not really interested in what I think. If you were, you wouldn't be constantly stuffing words into my mouth.So you're not really interested in how we can improve our lives w/o losing the gains we've made.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, June 23, 2008 5:53 AM