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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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There are LOTS of Billionaires in Zimbabwe !

And , we ALL want to be Billionaires , Right ?

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All of which makes you think about it, when you hear how many billionaires have been created in the last decade or so in the United States. Sure, they're billionaires and all, but a billion ain't what it used to be! :)

"A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money!"

Unless, of course, it's Zimbabwean money...

Quoth Monty Python: "My brain hurts."

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Originally posted by rue:
You think that currency isn't real ? Just wait till the banks close and you can't get of that phony stuff out. Trust me, it'll hurt.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well you're right and you're wrong there Rue...

Take, for instance, how because of the price of copper has gone up so high while the value of the dollar has gone down, because the Fed doesn't have the balls to raise interest rates, that now it is becoming lucrative to melt down pennies and cash them in. It's not making a ton right now, but if we see both of those trends continue on, we'll likely eliminate the penny altogether as we run out of lighter and cheaper metals to keep mixing with that copper.

It's really why Capitalism gets a bad name in my book. There really isn't a Free Market or even True Capitalism when you have notes that aren't backed up by anything but a promise and the big boys on top can raise or lower interest rates to effect us common folk significantly in our decisions.

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families using worthless bank notes to burn furnaces because it was cheaper than buying firewood.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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families using worthless bank notes to burn furnaces because it was cheaper than buying firewood.

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Yeah O2B, that's what I said

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Even paper money might have a higher value... as kindling, if nothing else

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I am well aware of hyperinflation. My MIL lived thru it.

So?

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The Federal Reserve is incapable of accomplishing its stated objectives.

It is a cartel operating against the public interest.

It's the supreme instrument of usury.

It generates our most unfair tax.

It encourages war.

It destabilizes the economy.

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I note, once again for the record, that wars, depressions, unfair taxes, and usury all existed well before the Federal Reserve... or indeed banks... came into existance. Ridding ourselves of the Federal Reserve will not eliminate those problems!

Instead of trying to convince of the "bad stuff" the Fed ISN'T responsible for, why don't we focus on the problems Fed IS responsible for???

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Let's party like it's 1929.

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Originally posted by SergeantX:
zeitgeist.

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.... and how could you say otherwise?, given that "planning progress" is at the heart of your political zeitgeist.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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.... and how could you say otherwise?, given that "planning progress" is at the heart of your political zeitgeist.

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By this do you mean my belief is that if "the Fed" didn't exist, something like it (a centralized agency) would have to take its place?

We see how well that worked for good 'ole Louis, right?

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mechanisms need to be in place which aggressively and positively place power in the hands of individuals.

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In my view, the concentration of power is beyond individual action to reverse

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Democracy is one such system which deliberately places political authority into individual's hands.

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One of those mechanisms is the right and ability to possess weapons capable of levelling the playing field. Sure, it's far from being the only one, but still, that IS one of them, and should remain so. A 110lb little old lady with a Bersa Thunder is more than a match for a 280lb crackhound with a crowbar, but take away that Bersa, and she's just one more victim.

Not sayin they're a whole solution, but it's certainly a part of one.

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When it comes to freedom, the first and most important is recognizing the importance of organization.

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Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
This is creepy!

Not too long ago I saw this documentary that predicted this very scenario. Ooooh, it gives me the chills.

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Originally posted by out2theblack:

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Well you're right and you're wrong there Rue...

Take, for instance, how because of the price of copper has gone up so high while the value of the dollar has gone down, because the Fed doesn't have the balls to raise interest rates, that now it is becoming lucrative to melt down pennies and cash them in. It's not making a ton right now, but if we see both of those trends continue on, we'll likely eliminate the penny altogether as we run out of lighter and cheaper metals to keep mixing with that copper.

It's really why Capitalism gets a bad name in my book. There really isn't a Free Market or even True Capitalism when you have notes that aren't backed up by anything but a promise and the big boys on top can raise or lower interest rates to effect us common folk significantly in our decisions.

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If folk would ever bother to re-check the Coinage Act (1792) , they'd know that the poorest folk were well protected , in the original instance...Pennies were Worth MORE than their 'face value' , so that in a worst case situation , if anyone had as much as a few cents on hand , they'd still have something of True Substance , of significant worth and VALUE , that could be traded for other commodities of worth...

Now , since 1964 , even 'Silver' coins have had their worth extracted , and they're the non-Lawful 'cupro-nickel sandwich' , in the best case...

The pennies , as it turns out , are an even more egregious abuse...They used to be solid copper , but for more than 20 years are substantially , 'copper-washed zinc' , which is banker/lawyer/politician Federal Reserve Suckerese for 'there goes your True Substance and your Lawful Money yet again , chumps !'...

A fortunate few are able to find old pennies and melt them for exchange for the 'Bank Notes of the realm'...

The Liars and Deniers persist , but they are 'Heroes' at the expense of everyone else...

Witness the Worldwide Demand for frickin' manhole covers and sewer grates as 'currency'...

That's some big dang 'Coin' for common folk to have to tote around , but hey , the desperate do what has to done...

< http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4PCTA_e
nUS286&q=stealing+manhole+covers>

< http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=stealing+manhole+covers>

Oh yeah , the 'upscale' criminals are stealing the catalytic converters off of parked cars...A hacksaw will get you into that 'business'...

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

It's sad that natural born American's don't know any of that. I admit that though what you say makes perfect sense, I never learned about it in school. I'm even willing to bet that it is in the textbooks somwhere between K-12, but to the best of my recollection we never covered more than 1/8 of any history book my parents paid 50 to 100 bucks for growing up.

I never knew if you were natural born or not, but I know that (at least I think I do and don't get pissed if I'm wrong) that you're of Asian descent. I know that doesn't mean that you aren't a natural born citizen or anything, but either way I appreciate it more coming from you and feel just that much more ashamed that I really know nothing about how this wonderful country had been erected and what is happening to it now by both those in power and those who stand aside and allow it to happen.

Thanks for enlightening me on that. I have no doubt that something of that significance was truly set up that way in the beginning before Government no longer existed to serve the people.

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Originally posted by Iremist:
Not to interrupt y'alls in depth and migraine inducing conversation, BUT...


There IS nothing wrong with the US Dollar

There is NOTHING wrong with the US dollar!

There is nothing WRONG with the US dollar!


However, after scrolling through this thread, I just may invest in LEAD, preferably in 180 grain increments...............

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Originally posted by SignyM:
If you would just read a little history, and look at the reign of the Louis XVI you'll see that despite the fact that the government had a monopoly on currency AND it created its coins out of gold there was STILL massive unemployment, poverty, injustice, debt, inequality and... ultimately.... THHHHWHACK!!!

I'm a little too busy to tackle your post point by point. I don't deny there are problems. Heck, ask anyone around here, I'm the Eeyore of capitalism and even more pessimistic about the dollar. I just don't see the Fed being the sole problem, or even the most important one.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
If you would just read a little history, and look at the reign of the Louis XVI you'll see that despite the fact that the government had a monopoly on currency AND it created its coins out of gold there was STILL massive unemployment, poverty, injustice, debt, inequality and... ultimately.... THHHHWHACK!!!

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Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
I'm refering to a documentary, a sort of conspiracy theory, called Zeitgeist (it was on YouTube) and in one particular part it spoke of the careful manipulation of currency in the US by the Fed (which is actually a private consortium and not a government entity).

It detailed how this group was looking to control the world market and actually get rid of paper money and control things by credit with the advent of the imbedded microchip. The microchip would be placed into everyone wrist and you would be tracked by this "chip". Some of the things it talks about have already taken place and now the latest debacle of the powerful dollar has me thinking it's predictions are not far off.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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Originally posted by kaneman:
Doesn't matter if it implodes. The FED can just keep on printing the stuff like it grows on trees(oops it does).....I have a wheel-barrel

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Originally posted by Kwicko:


...About all I can say at this point is, "I *HOPE* it's wrong."

Even as I fear it's probably not only right, but understated.

Signs read "Rough Road Ahead"...

Mike

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What Can US Policy Makers do to Prevent a Catastrophic Melt Down?

None of the following alternative policies will provide a painless solution to a serious economic problem. Nevertheless, as we are repeatedly reminded with natural disasters, such as hurricane Katrina, ignoring a problem only serves to magnify the ultimate damage. Hence I hope that you will at least consider the following alternatives.

Policy Alternative #1

The federal government must dramatically reduce the size of the federal deficit. Only then will it be possible to relieve pressures that have built up during the past decade. As tax payers, we all appreciate the reductions in federal income tax rates that were enacted early in this decade. However, when combined with two long and expensive wars, the result was a dramatic reversal of federal budget surpluses that had been established in the late 1990s. Federal budget deficits stimulate the demand for goods and services in general. When combined with a strong US dollar and increasingly liberal trade policies, the record setting US budget deficits of this decade have had an especially strong impact on US imports.

Unlike prior budget deficits, which were largely financed domestically, US budget deficits of the current decade have been largely financed by the rest of the world. Until recently, the external financing of US budget deficits effectively shielded US consumers from the financial costs of war. The traditional tradeoff of guns versus butter was seemingly replaced by a choice of more guns along with more butter. Unfortunately, as is the case with any public or private program that is funded by a rapidly increasing debt, the illusion of a free lunch is short lived. Eventually lenders seek repayment with interest. The US has entered the early stage of the repayment phase of its war-time borrowing program. If policy makers continue to ignore the inevitable, the economic consequences will be severe....
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“[T]he banking problems in the United States continue to mount, while the federal government’s deficit continues to soar out of control. . . . So what happened to cause the dollar to rally over the past three weeks? In a word, intervention. Central banks have propped up the dollar, and here’s the proof.

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Originally posted by JaynezTown:


HOW TO CONCEAL MASSIVE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE
http://www.webofdebt.com/articles/wag_the_dog.php

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“[T]he banking problems in the United States continue to mount, while the federal government’s deficit continues to soar out of control. . . . So what happened to cause the dollar to rally over the past three weeks? In a word, intervention. Central banks have propped up the dollar, and here’s the proof.

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Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
This is creepy!

Not too long ago I saw this documentary that predicted this very scenario. Ooooh, it gives me the chills.

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

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... Even with stagnant real incomes, we can always live a little better every year through borrowing and pretending that our living standard is still rising, just as it was for decades. So the Great Bull Market made us feel rich, and we felt justified in saving less and borrowing - and spending - more.

After stocks collapsed, home prices took off, making us feel rich all over again. So we continued saving less and spending more, creating the illusion that our living standard was still rising. In 2005 our personal savings rate went negative, but even that didn't slow us down, because our homes were still appreciating - and rising home values meant that household net worths weren't declining. (Don't be fooled by that saving-rate spike in this year's second quarter; it was probably a one-time event resulting from the federal stimulus payments.)

Of course, we don't hear those assurances anymore. Stocks are back where they were eight years ago, and home prices are where they were five years ago.

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... That's where the credit card reports come in. Last year, just as the subprime crisis happened, credit card debt took off. The home-equity ATM had been shut down, so people turned to the last source of easy money they had left, the most expensive debt on the menu, credit card borrowing. Since credit card debt has been growing much faster than the economy - more than 8% in last year's third and fourth quarters and over 7% in May (the most recent month reported)- people are apparently using it as a substitute for income. Thus, for the past year or so we have still maintained the standard-of-living illusion. But a big crunch is coming - and here's why. Credit card debt, like mortgage debt, gets bundled, securitized, and sold off by banks. Citigroup (C, Fortune 500), one of America's largest credit card lenders, just reported that it lost $176 million in the second quarter through securitizing such debt. That happens when the buyers of those securities observe rising delinquency rates and rising interest rates, and decide the debt is worth less than Citi thought. More generally, the amount of credit card debt that is securitized nationwide has plunged by more than half in the past five months because it's getting riskier. That means credit card issuers will be charging customers higher interest rates, and since the banks can't offload as much of the debt as before, they'll have less money to lend to cardholders.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

The next credit crunch

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Fortune Magazine -- We made it through the bursting of the Internet bubble and now the bursting of the real estate bubble. Next we may be approaching the end of the most worrisome bubble of all: the standard-of-living bubble.

That conclusion comes from the latest data on credit card debt. It's growing fast, but the problem is bigger than that - and to understand what it means, we have to take a few steps back.

For the past several years, the average inflation-adjusted total pay of American workers hasn't been increasing.

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So much for the myth of the robust economy under Bush...

After stocks collapsed, home prices took off, making us feel rich all over again. So we continued saving less and spending more, creating the illusion that our living standard was still rising. In 2005 our personal savings rate went negative, but even that didn't slow us down, because our homes were still appreciating - and rising home values meant that household net worths weren't declining. (Don't be fooled by that saving-rate spike in this year's second quarter; it was probably a one-time event resulting from the federal stimulus payments.)...


...And this is what happens when you don't recycle cash down to the worker-bees: You have to maintain "the economy" through debt and inflation. And that is the problem with profit: it concentrates capital to the point where it chokes the economy .

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