Were we left-leanin' peeps and Libertarians spoiled by the last quarter of the 20th Century? by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

And for it to be a harmless vaccine and not a case of anthrax we'd have to actually get over it without substantial, lasting damage. I don't see that that's possible.

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."

So the U. S. should come out of the Bush Administration with a ruttin' "S" on it's chest, eh?

To run with the medical analogy for a moment longer, sure we have broken bones n' s**t, but we can heal. Maybe a limp here, a few scars there... Like Geezer said, we've been worse & survived.

The Optimistic Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I take umbrage at the title of this thread...left-leaners and Libertarians are NOT the same thing. Not even close.

lol

Okay

, I know, it 's just that both tend to prize the individual's rights over the states, except the LOONEY left fringe, but that's another story, heh heh.

NotfringyChrisisall

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:22 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Chris, Is All

Ehhh - wait till you get as old as me. Somehow you can carry the dings and dents without much problem when you're young. But when you get older ... they ALL resurrect from a long-forgotten youth and take their toll. They they're not making you stronger - they just make you hurt. And feel tired.

But anyway, to the US specifically - I'd have to see that the problems - the disease one might say - are actually being overcome. I'd need to see individuals rights to privacy enshrined in the constitution by name. Corporations stripped of personhood. The media acting like something other than a whore. Elections run by neutral parties and not those with agendas. Congress acting as a check on the presidency. Justice meted out to the administration. Big money out of government. ... The list is even longer, but you get the idea.

If these things don't happen, then how can we say the patient is on the mend ?

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

If these things don't happen, then how can we say the patient is on the mend ?

Maybe the patient has, like, herpes, you know, it's never really gone, but it flares up every now & then...? The idea is to control it, make it manageable.

PatientzeroChrisisall

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Ahem ... well, uhhh, you see, herpes is kinda like really, really slow AIDS - it might not kill you (as quickly) but it's there, quietly doing damage all the while. And why, before you know it, in a mere 40 years or so you have high blood pressure, or dementia ... but, that's just getting a little too carried away with the analogy ...

I understand what you're driving at. I'm just not sure I think there's a grand sweep to history with an inevitability of better days at some unknown point in the future.

Just call me a cockeyed pessimist !

***************************************************************
Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice.

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:38 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Okay , I know, it 's just that both tend to prize the individual's rights over the states, except the LOONEY left fringe, but that's another story, heh heh.

The Left prizes the individual's rights? What you been smokin', son? The Left prizes the collective good (as defined by the Left), and is willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals for the supposed good of the whole. Hence, for example, the "Although you're law-abiding, we demand that you give up your right to own firearms on the off chance it might keep a criminal from using one." type retoric. The Left want the government to "take care" of us, and improve our lives (using their image of 'improved') whether we want to be taken care of and improved or not.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 3:42 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well, Chris, Is All

The thing is I think the really evil people DID take over. I'm not talking about Bush - he's just the brain-dead puppet they use to put a face on the machine - but Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice et al.

And just think. If the majority of the people agree with you, in a few months all those evil folks will be out of a job.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:32 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

The Left prizes the individual's rights? What you been smokin', son? The Left prizes the collective good (as defined by the Left), and is willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals for the supposed good of the whole. Hence, for example, the "Although you're law-abiding, we demand that you give up your right to own firearms on the off chance it might keep a criminal from using one." type retoric. The Left want the government to "take care" of us, and improve our lives (using their image of 'improved') whether we want to be taken care of and improved or not.

Actually, with the sole exception of the Second Amendment issue, this sounds like the playbook the "new right" has been going off for at least the last eight years. So the neo-cons are really just the old left?

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:28 PM

I still favor the French solution.

A freakin downright purge, drag them from their holes and string em up, a reign of terror that will put even the WORD "Neocon" in the same lexicon as "Nazi" - to where no decent human being will ever associate themselves with it again.

Be kinda theraputic, when ya think about it.

Of course, humans being humans, it wouldn't really happen that way and there would be way too much collateral damage to innocents from me to *really* want that to happen....

But a fellow can dream, can't he ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

The Left prizes the individual's rights? What you been smokin', son? The Left prizes the collective good (as defined by the Left), and is willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals for the supposed good of the whole.

What you are describing is the LOONEY left fringe, and funnily enough, the NeoCon agenda- see, the crazies meet at that part in the circle.

Libertarian: A liberal or Conservative who is in their right mind.

Independentisall

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:16 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

If "we" (American individuals) are the white blood cells and immune components of our political health, guarding the body politic against corruption and tyranny then....

We're hosed, man.

Gimme another six-pack and let me watch them funny Superbowl commercials on my big screen.

*burp*

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Gimme another six-pack and let me watch them funny Superbowl commercials on my big screen.

Let us eat cake....

The Somnambulist publicisall

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

See we're better'n the Roman plebians. Not only do we have cake, we have circuses in our own homes, and beer.

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Sunday, August 17, 2008 6:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
See we're better'n the Roman plebians. Not only do we have cake, we have circuses in our own homes, and beer.

Beer...
Throw me to the lions- just do it after happy hour...

*hic*isall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 3:42 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Fred,

Come on! Can you honestly say that 'neocons" are any worse than Liberals?

Both are extremes of their particular belief-branch. Both would bring this country to its knees.

I say, string both Liberals and Ultra-Righ-wingers up from the same tree. They both deserve it for what they've done.

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Monday, August 18, 2008 4:20 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I still favor the French solution.

A freakin downright purge, drag them from their holes and string em up, a reign of terror that will put even the WORD "Neocon" in the same lexicon as "Nazi" - to where no decent human being will ever associate themselves with it again.

Be kinda theraputic, when ya think about it.

Yep. And look at the wonderful results. The Terror, where anyone and everyone could be denounced and chopped. Massive government control of every phase of life. Napoleon, the classic strongman savior who got the country into any number of costly and ultimately futile imperialist wars. An eventual return to monarchy.

I agree that it might be a momentary rush to string the bastards up rather than vote them out, but history shows that such fun generally comes at a high cost.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 18, 2008 4:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Can you honestly say that 'neocons" are any worse than Liberals?

I can.
Liberals believe in freedom, Loony lefties believe in an ultimate nanny-state, which is a hairsplit from the fascist Iron Fist NeoCons would prefer to see.
The fringes of each are almost identical.

Defining Chrisisall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 4:34 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
What you are describing is the LOONEY left fringe...

Do a bit of reading on Progressivism, the precursor to the new Liberals. Check out the New Deal or the Great Society - "The government knows best and will fix it". Consider the 15,000 families displaced by the TVA. Wilson, Roosevelt and Johnson were the LOONEY Left?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 18, 2008 4:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Wilson, Roosevelt and Johnson were the LOONEY Left?

Yes, just as Reagan, Bush & Bush were/are the NeoCon right.

isall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 5:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
1975 to 2000...no MAJOR war, blacks, women, gays all being more accepted as equals & getting more rights protected...Star Trek returning...

It seems we were getting used to a more open society, taking it for granted even...then BAM! Here rides in Bush Jr. to show us all how fear can be used to keep the local systems in line.

Did Bush do us a disguised favour setting us back so far? What if someone who was not merely incompetent, but really evil got a hold of this nation post 9-11? Maybe Bush is the warning sign we all needed...? Like a vaccine, sort of?

Whaddya think?

Postulatin' Chrisisall

Donkeys live a long life. None of you have ever seen a dead donkey...

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 18, 2008 5:22 AM

I've also never seen a donkey show, but I don't know what that has to do with the price of tea in China...

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, August 18, 2008 5:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Johnson ........ the LOONEY Left?

Wanting a "Great Society" while feeding kids into the 'Nam meat grinder?? I'd call that looney all right.

Chrisisall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 6:02 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"1975 to 2000...no MAJOR war, blacks, women, gays all being more accepted as equals & getting more rights protected...Star Trek returning..."

Really? Is that a Liberal utopian society?

I love Star Trek, dont get me wrong, but....they were under a "benevolent" military dictatorship.

And, did you notice how both religion and money were never explored/explained in the series?

Also, no major wars? No, we just had a bunch of illegal "police-actions" which benefitted no-one.

"Blacks, women, gays all being more accepted as equals & getting more rights protected..."

Getting more rights than white Americans you mean to say.

Furthermore, do I need to mention how the STD rates skyrocketed (A.I.D.S. anyone?), how crime exploded, how divorce rates expanded, and how much free speech was curbed in favor of "political-correctness" and Nanny-State b.s.?

Granted, I can't see a Conservative utopia as being much better...

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Monday, August 18, 2008 6:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Really? Is that a Liberal utopian society?

I love Star Trek, dont get me wrong, but....they were under a "benevolent" military dictatorship.

Uh, no.

Quote:

Also, no major wars? No, we just had a bunch of illegal "police-actions" which benefitted no-one.

Agreed.

Quote:

"Blacks, women, gays all being more accepted as equals & getting more rights protected..."

Getting more rights than white Americans you mean to say.

To deny that the pendulum will swing once released, when pulled so far to one side previously, would be...illogical.

Quote:

Furthermore, do I need to mention how the STD rates skyrocketed (A.I.D.S. anyone?)

I believe it was a myth- I never knew anyone with Aids...

Quote:
, how crime exploded,

Prove THAT, please...

Quote:
how divorce rates expanded,

An inevitable consequence of expanding freedom- deal with it.

Quote:
and how much free speech was curbed in favor of "political-correctness" and Nanny-State b.s.?

I agree here too, PC started out fine (like so many movements do), then got heady, and finally laughable.

Quote:

Granted, I can't see a Conservative utopia as being much better...

More agreement...

Chrisisall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 6:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I've also never seen a donkey show, but I don't know what that has to do with the price of tea in China...

I expect more than that from you Kwicko....

Maybe somebody here gets it, maybe they don't. If they don't that's life, ain't it?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 18, 2008 6:23 AM

Wulf, careful with that kool-aid there.

The folks who I believe you mean, worshippers of the nanny-state at it's extreme, are more properly labeled National Socialists, and I do not care for them a whit neither.

I'm very picky about this kind of thing, even when levelling insult, as you'll note that I never file garden-variety Conservatives in with the Hard-Right Straussian NeoCon slime.

Your garden variety Liberal doesn't belong in the same pot with the National Socialists neither, for all the mainstream press attempts to plant them there all day every day nonstop in a very successful attempt to demonize them.

Considering how much other bullshit they shovel, and we know they shovel, why should the above point be accepted when nothing else that comes out of their orfices is true ?

The garden variety Liberal wants you to comply with their little plans, but lacks the will or intent to force you, and is (rightfully) afraid of placing that power in the hands of the Government because they're neither stupid or blind enough to believe that's a good idea.

The National Socialist wants you to comply too, and while they lack the will to force you directly, has no problem handing the Government the power to force you, as they believe in the need for, and benevolence of, Government with a zeal bordering on religious fervor.
(Geeze makes good point on Progressivism, these kind of numnuts have been with us almost as long as the fucking Federalists)

By themselves, not especially dangerous - but you sure as hell wouldn't want the machinery of Government in their hands, either.

I tellya, the circle of crazy meets right in the middle, with the National Socialists and NeoCons having the same Facist-stinking Straussian agenda that goes all the way back to Plato's freakin Republic if you think about it, but I consider the NeoCons the greater threat because unlike the National Socialists, they'll poison ANY structure they can reach into doing their bidding, Media, Religion, anything they touch feels the taint, and results in hordes of wild-eyed "Prrroud to be ignerrrnt!" Brownshirts with zero thought process, no mercy and an axe to grind.

I simply address them in order of their threat level to me, my freedom, and my personhood, and frankly, the National Socialists don't have their shit together enough to present a valid threat at this time - although I DO worry about them being voted into power by folks so sick of the Right-Wing jackboot on their neck that they'll turn to ANY alternative that presents itself without considering the implications.

Frying pan to the fire is NOT an improvement - most of the current Democratic Party isn't even pissed off about the crapping on our rights, as witnessed by their complete and total cowardice (Yeah, talkin to YOU, Conyers) in addressing the matter, they're just pissed that they ain't in CHARGE of it, is all.

But garden variety Liberals ? pffth, no threat to me, idealists most of them, and in fact potential allies, remember, as an Anarchist, imma bout as "Liberal" as it gets, and you don't see ME advocating and praising the merits of Big Daddy Government, do ya now ?

Geeze

Quote:
I agree that it might be a momentary rush to string the bastards up rather than vote them out, but history shows that such fun generally comes at a high cost.

That's why I said it was just a dream, I know FAR too much history to not know exactly how that would go - the price for it would be way too high without significant corresponding benefit.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 18, 2008 6:40 AM

Oh I got it, Jack, it's just that it requires a whole lot of prereq knowledge to really get that one since it's so obscure.

I think ya aimed that bit of snark a bit high, cause it damn near flew by ME.

Don't get me started on Star Trek...
My position on em was actually summed up quite well by Kyril Finn in the TNG episode "The High Ground".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyril_Finn
He delivered a well deserved and long overdue chops-busting on them, even if it was watered down cause the whole concept conflicted with the writers "vision" it did for ONCE show the opposite viewpoint, at least.

But the very BEST smackdown on Federation Policy was in fact delivered by Maqui operative Michael Eddington during the episode "For the Cause".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_Cause
"Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation...You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."

Star Trek = Firefly from the Alliance POV.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, August 18, 2008 6:48 AM

Sorry man... just read it for the first time actually. My Great-Aunt gave it to me 17 years ago, and sadly, I just got around to reading it now.

I now know who the author is, and in extention know a bit more about who I am in the process.

200 years after our anarchy it would probably look a lot like it does now, wouldn't it?

I remember watching 12 Monkeys the second time and thinking it was a completely different movie than it was the first time I saw it.

J

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Monday, August 18, 2008 8:08 AM

You've never read "Animal Farm" before? Man, you got some catchin' up to do. Animal Farm, 1984, Stranger in a Strange Land, Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World, A Clockwork Orange... those should be required reading for EVERY American.

Glad you're reading at all, though. To stop reading is to stop learning; to stop learning is to die inide.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, August 18, 2008 8:09 AM

BTW - Sorry I didn't catch it earlier, Jack. Been sick. Fever no fun. :(

Hang on - things could get weird. And when the going gets weird, the weird go pro.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, August 18, 2008 8:30 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Glad you're reading at all, though. To stop reading is to stop learning; to stop learning is to die inide.

I think you meant to say "inside".

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Monday, August 18, 2008 8:46 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Wilson, Roosevelt and Johnson were the LOONEY Left?

Yes, just as Reagan, Bush & Bush were/are the NeoCon right.

Okay, are you actually agreeing that the major icons of the liberals are part of the looney left, pretty much making the entire left the looney left, or is this just more of your sarcasm? Wish we had a

emoticon you could use to designate, 'cause somtimes it's hard to tell.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 18, 2008 9:14 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The garden variety Liberal wants you to comply with their little plans, but lacks the will or intent to force you, and is (rightfully) afraid of placing that power in the hands of the Government because they're neither stupid or blind enough to believe that's a good idea.

The National Socialist wants you to comply too, and while they lack the will to force you directly, has no problem handing the Government the power to force you, as they believe in the need for, and benevolence of, Government with a zeal bordering on religious fervor.

Fremd.

You might want to go by the library and pick up a copy of Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. He makes a pretty good case that liberals, since the turn of the last century, have proposed policies pretty much in sync with Mussolini's Fascism and Hitler's National Socialism (Less the racial purity thing, which which was more a German than Fascist thing. Italy had Jews in the Fascist government pretty much until the Germans forced him to remove them after the war started.) Goldberg notes, for example, the idolization of Mussolini by progressive and liberal U.S. politicians and academics in the 1920 and '30s. Many of them also thought National Socilism was the wave of the future.

He draws the contrast between, say, National Socialism and Liberalism using the masculine totalitarianism (boot stamping on a human face - forever) pictured in 1984 where everyone lives in fear, with the feminine totalitarianism (nanny state) of Brave New World where everyone's smothered with care, like it or not.

Also some interesting points about how Liberals create and support corporatism, as long as the corporations toe the line.

Some of his stuff is over the top, but he has interesting points to ponder.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 18, 2008 9:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

Okay, are you actually agreeing that the major icons of the liberals are part of the looney left

Yes.

Quote:
pretty much making the entire left the looney left

No.
No more than 'all Conservatives are part of the NeoCon agenda'.

Good Liberals and Conservatives have much common ground, fringy idiotlogues- not so much.

(I made up a new word

)

Chrisisall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Glad you're reading at all, though. To stop reading is to stop learning; to stop learning is to die inide.

I think you meant to say "inside".

Right you are!

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, August 18, 2008 10:04 AM

Quote:

He draws the contrast between, say, National Socialism and Liberalism using the masculine totalitarianism (boot stamping on a human face - forever) pictured in 1984 where everyone lives in fear, with the feminine totalitarianism (nanny state) of Brave New World where everyone's smothered with care, like it or not.

Interesting analogy; I like it.

Mike

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence[sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero, Real World Event Discussions

I can't help the sinking feeling that my country is now being run by people who read "1984" not as a cautionary tale, but rather as an instruction manual. - Michael Mock

The Myrmidons were an ancient nation of very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and were commanded by Achilles. - Wikipedia

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Monday, August 18, 2008 12:43 PM

I think I mighta read that a while back, but it's no matter, I can by-morrigan GUARANTEE you that our local library won't have it.. too "dangerous", if you know what I mean.

But again, not that it matters, remember Anarchist history, we hated these fuckers with a passion, and were all too well aware of how they idealized the Fascists as the wave of the future, happy, productive drones willing to enrich them without a single thought to themselves all for "the greater good"...

And we ain't never, EVER forgetting what they did to US in the doing, as a handy scapegoat along with those pesky Unionists.

While it's useful to have those kind of distinctions so far as figuring out how to best gum up the works on them, my primary concern when I look at a political philosophy is the end point, and whether it be the NeoCons, National Socialists, Islamic Fanatics, or what have you, if the end point is them controlling every aspect of my life - up goes the Black Flag and it's time to spit on ones hands and lower the pike.

In the end, they're all the same to me, really.

-Frem
"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."
H. L. Mencken

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Monday, August 18, 2008 1:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Liberals create and support corporatism

Why, I thought that was corporo-Libertarians. In other words, you! *bats eyes*.

In any case, my progressive friends call both Liberals and Libertarians "Liberaloids".

---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal

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Monday, August 18, 2008 1:24 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I think I mighta read that a while back, but it's no matter, I can by-morrigan GUARANTEE you that our local library won't have it.. too "dangerous", if you know what I mean.

C'mon. If they have it here in Fairfax county, the bastion of Virginia liberalism, they'll have it there. Or maybe you should get the hell out of there before they start putting Soma in the water.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 18, 2008 1:34 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Why, I thought that was corporo-Libertarians.

No such thing. And you're confusing corporatism with capitalism again.

"Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is held by civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and/or professional groups. These civic assemblies are known as corporations (not the same as the legally incorporated business entities known as corporations, though some are such). Corporations are unelected bodies with an internal hierarchy; their purpose is to exert control over the social and economic life of their respective areas."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

"Capitalism is the economic system in which the means of production are owned by private persons, and operated for profit[1] and where investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are predominantly determined through the operation of a free market.[2] Capitalism is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and corporations to trade, incorporate, employ workers, and use money, in goods, services (including finance), labor and land."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Corporatism, practiced by both the Italian Fascists and German National Socialists, seems to embody a lot of the same ideals as the Cooperatives you frequently espouse.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, August 18, 2008 2:18 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

The Left prizes the individual's rights? What you been smokin', son? The Left prizes the collective good (as defined by the Left), and is willing to sacrifice the rights of individuals for the supposed good of the whole. Hence, for example, the "Although you're law-abiding, we demand that you give up your right to own firearms on the off chance it might keep a criminal from using one." type retoric. The Left want the government to "take care" of us, and improve our lives (using their image of 'improved') whether we want to be taken care of and improved or not.
"Keep the Shiny side up"

Oh bullshit

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Monday, August 18, 2008 2:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
And you're confusing corporatism with capitalism again.

Capitalism in America these days is a long wait for a train don't come, Geeze, at least when you're talkin' the big bucks. It could be a lot worse, but it's still pretty bad...remember when OCP was satire in the movie Robocop? Well baby, it's like that now...but, y'know, without the heroic cyborg.

RoboChrisisall

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Monday, August 18, 2008 3:48 PM

Oh he's definately got a point, FMF - I just don't think he, or anyone, should be smearing the entire Leftward end of the political spectrum over the conduct of certain branches any more than one should smear the entire Rightward end over the Neocons.

That bein said, there is indeed a danger to us looming in the folk he's speaking of, and one well worth considering when we yank the carpet out from under these Neocon sumbitches... we don't wanna roll it out for an extreme at the other if we can at all help it, yanno ?

"I'm thinkin, a place in the middle..."

I will also state that what we have here in the States is a far cry from a Free Market when Corporations have the same rights as people (See Also: Corporate Personhood) and can buy themselves favorable laws and regulations from the politicians.

What we currently have is more accurately described as Crony Capitalism or Vulture Capitalism, with a side order of Government-Mandated Monopoly.
(See Also: Amtrack)

As for the library and the water, this podunk little town's library refuses to stock anything more controversial than romance novels, on top of which their selection of anything but reference works is so puny that they're practically begging for donations....

And if you wanna talk about the water supply, PN makes a good case for Flouridation being the equivalent of the Soma or the Pax, a claim which, on serious investigation, holds a surprising amount of weight given the evidence.

Not like that's of any great concern to me, given that I am of West Virginian ancestry and Michigan allows you to brew over a hundred gallons a year of whatever the hell ya please for personal consumption...

Distilling WATER ? pffth, waste of good equipment, ya ask me.
(Cue: Rude Sounding Banjo Music)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
BTW - Sorry I didn't catch it earlier, Jack. Been sick. Fever no fun. :(

Hang on - things could get weird. And when the going gets weird, the weird go pro.

HT... one of my favorites

I've actually read most of your list there, and I agree they should be mandatory reading. From what I understand most of it was in school, but they've been dropped....

Funny that, isn't it?

But yeah... I was a dumb kid who read a bunch of crap until I was about 23 and started reading anything of substance.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:32 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Capitalism in America these days is a long wait for a train don't come, Geeze, at least when you're talkin' the big bucks. It could be a lot worse, but it's still pretty bad...remember when OCP was satire in the movie Robocop? Well baby, it's like that now...but, y'know, without the heroic cyborg.

Yep. It's pretty funny, but most big companies nowadays can't really be described as Capitalist. They're so tied into government, and rely on so many complicated regulation and reporting requirements to keep smaller competitors at a disadvantage. Big companies actually lobby for MORE regulation, and the government's happy to oblige...if the companies fall in with the party line. The Corporatists are winning.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, August 19, 2008 3:12 AM