Hey Signy.... by 6ixStringJack

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Hey Signy....

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Friday, September 26, 2008 17:16
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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:02 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Well, I'd say the percentage of functional sociopaths is proably higher among the very wealthy and powerful - these are people who principally relate to the vast amount of humanity as servants, employees, numbers on a balance sheet, or the simply invisible. Their background doesn't give them much experience with empathy. And their self-interest in their own wealth and power in a zero-sum system are a large disincentive to any budding humanity. B/c what if you cared about the debt-slave children in India whose work is the source of your high profits ?

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
what I AM saying is that a system HAS to account for the fact that some ppl WILL behave in a sociopathic manner. If you can't account for that, then your system is not durable. It's as simple as that.

Well of course you're gonna get some through the cracks, never denied that.

I never said folks are born perfect, believe me there's an infinite amount of screwups that can happen, what I meant was it's not a dead-bang gonna-happen predestination.

I mean, by all rights I should be such simple by virtue of my sharply reduced emotional capacity, but I ain't, or leastways don't think so, although asshole I may be.

My point is that even born with every single possible bent and precursor, genetic and otherwise, they're still not a "lost cause" if you can get to it early enough, and by doing so you can minimize the numbers substantially.

As for accounting for it, dealing with it, in order to have a substantial impact, a sociopath has to get other folk to act in concert with em, and without that they're just an individual aberration and outcast - if you take away the social paradigm of honoring their behavior, holding it up as some kind of laudable thing and encouraging it, there goes a lot of the incentive to listen to one of these folk, as you can imagine.

I don't care how smooth, charming, charismatic or reasonable someone is, they're not gonna convince me to violate the core tenets of my personal philosophy, which serves the same function for me that religion does for others.

Not sure if that concept is gonna get across so well here in text, but I tried.

Quote:
The problem is that the "more efficient" systems do seem to overtake the less efficient ones. Again, you have to build in a firewall to keep an efficient (but ruthless) system from "outcompeting" yours.

I'd say that kinda depends on your definition of efficiency.

Cycle Shop: "$85 an hour, minimum one hour, we'll get to it on tuesday, maybe."
Frem: "So, what's it worth to ya ?"

Cycle Shop: "We don't work on those."
Frem: "That's a Casal, portugese Zundapp clone, parts are gonna be a bitch, but we can try."

Cycle Shop (3AM): "Our hours are 8am-5pm mon-thurs, please call back during normal business hours."
Frem (3AM): "Mreegh?! WhaddaF.. it had better be good, wakin me up AIN'T cheap..."

Cycle Shop: "90 days on parts and labor, factory defects only on the parts."
Frem: "You have any trouble with that, call me."

Cycle Shop: "Cash, check or credit card, sorry."
Frem: "So what can you do for me ?"

Cycle Shop: "This is our price, take it or leave it."
Frem: "How old are you, kid ? first bike eh ? know how to use a lawnmower ? keep your money, go mow my lawn, and I should by done here by the time you are with the lawn."

There's efficiency, and there's efficiency, and some folks will honestly pay more or go out of their way for the human touch (and some in the other direction to avoid it, sure).

Quote:
The problem I have here is the SOLE reliance on a individual changes of heart, or mental models, to change the system. While I think it is necessary, I'm not sure that it is ENOUGH.

By itself, no - but it's a strong, and in my opinion, wholly necessary keystone to the rest of things cause like I said, the structures only have meaning in the means of guiding folk who already respect the purpose of them, it's not the only thing, but in my opinion such a critical one because it multiplies the effect of every other check and balance exponentially.

Quote:
I think we agree on much, but where we disagree is the idea of "just take stuff away". The problem in my view is that you have to REPLACE some of what you took away with something else that actively distributes power. The FF didn't just say "Let's get rid of monarchy". No, they attempted to replace it with a form of distributed power. Similarly, I agree with the idea of getting rid of corporate personhood, but if we don't actively replace it with something else, it'll spring up anew (in the mileu of trans-national trade, money and profit).

That's where a certain level of trial and error is just gonna HAVE to happen, you can have a plan, sure - but you know the best way to totally fuck up a perfect, flawless, impossible to fail plan, right ?

Introduce it to reality, and try to use it, lol.

So you have your plan A, and plan B, and a general idea of where you wanna go with the concept so that you can tweak it to form based on everybodys input and the effects as witnessed and percieved by them, which is a little more free-form than some folk are comfortable with, but in the presence of a strong *internal* moral and ethical bent against exploitive behavior, a bit less risky than it otherwise would be.

Like I've said quite often, we sure as hell ain't ready for that just yet, although we COULD start hacking out structures that have no use whatsoever, or in actual practice are counterproductive to their intended purpose.

Quote:
And he doesn't?

Not so much as either one of us, let's face it, I can be downright nasty, especially if I feel someone has lied to me, Sarge generally tries to hold a pretty reasonable line, and tends to just put down his silverware and go home when things turn nasty.

It's usually Rue or me that starts gouging eyes out with a fork, to be absolutely honest about it, and usually one having the other as intended gougee.
*snicker*, come to think of it, yes, I can laugh at that... in a dark and twisted sorta way it's actually funny.

And yeah, I meant that last bit in a general sense, about Caral, I do appreciate the example, but my statement was something to toss into the center of the table and see what others thought on the matter.

A final nod to Rue's last point also, cause I can find absolutely nothing to dispute about it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Strange as it may sound Frem but I believe that your view is rather....ermmm... naive. You think that others are going to be as ornery as you.

Quote:
As for accounting for it, dealing with it, in order to have a substantial impact, a sociopath has to get other folk to act in concert with em, and without that they're just an individual aberration and outcast - if you take away the social paradigm of honoring their behavior, holding it up as some kind of laudable thing and encouraging it, there goes a lot of the incentive to listen to one of these folk, as you can imagine.

I suppose. But I can imagine a sociopath doing things that are ostensibly "legal" and still gaming the system and screwing everyone over in the process. The socio, he don't care WHAT you think! And he may not need compliant goons to do it with. Bill Gates is a stellar example.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:38 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"My point is that even born with every single possible bent and precursor, genetic and otherwise, they're still not a "lost cause" if you can get to it early enough, and by doing so you can minimize the numbers substantially."

That's an unwarranted assertion. We can't even 'fix' the mildly impaired - or perhaps other-gifted - such as those with ADHD. (Having been a kid with undiagnosed ADHD I will tell you right now it isn't a phantom diagnosis. Nor is it benign.)

"As for accounting for it, dealing with it, in order to have a substantial impact, a sociopath has to get other folk to act in concert with em ..."

Well, look here then: http://www.newsweek.com/id/142636
Whatever happened to ... the people who were there at the beginning who made u-soft viable (as in, it wouldn't even be a company without them) - including and especially Paul Allen ? Who are the sociopaths ?
I count one. As for the others, they all got suckered to one extent or another. Allen did the heroic portion of the original programming, made the greatest contributions (even more so that Gates), and was chiseled out of his fair share by his friend - Bill Gates. Everyone else was working for the thrill, for a paycheck, and nothing else. They went along for their own reasons which were honorable but they were taken advantage of by Gates and never saw it coming.
As for the empire, Ballmer is a sociopath in his own right and he and Gates were on the same page from day one. So it's possible for sociopaths to be on the same team.
The u-soft lawyers who crafted and defended the illegal business practices were just doing a job. As were the programmers, accountants, janitors ...
Lesson: There are all sorts of non-sociopathic ways a sociopath can get people to go along with him (or her). And you don't have to be smooth or charming to do it - Gates certainly wasn't. Nor do you have to convince people to violate their personal tenets. You just have to be a wolf ready to eat people, even your friends, by bleeding them in ways they don't expect and are unable to fight against.

"There's efficiency, and there's efficiency ..."

I can't speak for SignyM, but faster accumulation of profit would be my definition. Money = power, whether in the marketplace to buy, sell, or hire. And more profit = more money = more power.

"... structures only have meaning in the means of guiding folk who already respect the purpose of them, it's not the only thing, but in my opinion such a critical one because it multiplies the effect of every other check and balance exponentially. ... in the presence of a strong *internal* moral and ethical bent against exploitive behavior"

I can think of a paradigm RIGHT NOW that would guarantee EVERYONE a secure and comfortable life from birth to death, a clean world, and global peace, and not just for them but for their children, and their children ... and so on ad infinitum. And it would be self-promoting because the benefits would be a daily observable reality. But it would be a hard sell - b/c people are completely vested in their current paradigms even as they're being killed by them. The hardest thing to change is a mind. Good luck with that.

"Sarge generally tries to hold a pretty reasonable line, and tends to just put down his silverware and go home when things turn nasty."

I find he goes home when the questions get specific and he can't answer them. In this last instance he went home when a paradigm he wasn't comfortable with (cooperative society) was brought up.

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Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:28 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Siggy

Quote:
Strange as it may sound Frem but I believe that your view is rather....ermmm... naive. You think that others are going to be as ornery as you.

Actually I don't, and lament the fact quite often.

I think they can learn to be, and if ANY systematic improvement is to be made, they'll have to do so or we'll just wind up with more of the same shit no matter what system is used as a foundation.

The question is getting from point A to point B there, and my method has been to influence younger folk who haven't accepted our current system, by encouraging that orneryness as a blessing rather than a curse.

Rue

Quote:
That's an unwarranted assertion.

The genetic component... no, not any more than we can effectively reverse downs syndrome, at least with our current level of research and technology, which kinda does here and there rub up against my belief system as partains to "playing god", due to my concerns about ethical standards and the use such research is put to.

But the behavioral component can be managed, while no great fan of medication as you well know, a big part of that is the fact that so much of the time it's handled in a fashion I consider medical quackery and butchery instead of as a comprehensive theraputic regime designed to enable healing and minimize dependance on outside assistance.

Personally I consider it downright malpractice to prescribe without patient input, monitoring of effectiveness and supplementary therapy and treatment.

There's a huge world of difference between having the school push you to a doctor who does a 10 minute checklist "diagnoses" and finds ADD 100% of the time a child is sent to them, resulting in a prescription for an off-label amphetamine without any more followup than calling in refills and upping the doseage at any sign of a problem...

And actually taking a child to a doctor who does a full workup, evaluation, and tries to FIX THE PROBLEM, or at least work out a method of longterm mediation and self-sufficiency using the full range and scope of possible treatment options and alternatives, with patient feedback and close consultation with the parents of the patient regarding the treatment process.

I have a massive chip on my shoulder towards the former, and no problems whatever with the latter - but due to many factors, undue influence of the schools, ineffective or absentee parenting, misinformation or the lack of it, most of what I have seen is actually the former model, and that is what I am flaming, so let's have that one clear first, ok ?

Sorry for the sidetrack, just wanted to clarify where my problems with the whole thing were, so there's no misunderstanding.

Quote:
Lesson: There are all sorts of non-sociopathic ways a sociopath can get people to go along with him (or her). And you don't have to be smooth or charming to do it - Gates certainly wasn't. Nor do you have to convince people to violate their personal tenets. You just have to be a wolf ready to eat people, even your friends, by bleeding them in ways they don't expect and are unable to fight against.

That's where a much stronger sense of self, and clear defined limits when dealing with other people come in handy, but that one's a bit sticky cause most folk don't have the emotional detatchment (or lack of attachment in the first place) to cut someone out clean and quick when they cross certain lines.

And yes, one can take the concept of self into ridiculous extremes, as with any other concept, just saying that we need to learn to recognize when that given inch starts stretching, and cut the rope on the spot despite emotional attachments.

And for one really obvious reason, it's simply a point I am incapable of arguing past this since I have no internal baseline model useful to make comparisons with here.

Quote:
I can't speak for SignyM, but faster accumulation of profit would be my definition.

But perhaps not everyones - and despite the cycle shops being larger, having much better tools, more personnel and a cleaner, more efficient infrastructure, I do manage to compete quite effectively in spite of being more or less a shade-tree mechanic, albeit one with an astounding wealth of knowledge within my specialty.

I take your point, mind - just pointing out that no monopoly is gonna cover every need and service, not at all hours, and most lack any form of human contact or interaction beyond product for money, which does create satellite niche markets which can be exploited even in our own economy in spite of their monopoly, yes ?

Just sayin humans are human, and that borg like efficiency does not a market-lock make, is all.

Quote:
The hardest thing to change is a mind. Good luck with that.

Indeed, I don't have much hope for our own generation, but I do have some for the ones coming after us - although right now were looking at defensive measures rather than a sea change, but it's a freakin start, and better than not acting at all.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 26, 2008 5:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sounds to me, Frem, like the best you hope for is for ppl to exist in the "niches" where monopolies don't. Personally, I want a system that simply DOES NOT ALLOW concentration of power. Period.

I'll give you another example: Cisco.

The REAL INVENTOR of Cisco is not the so-called founder Len Bosack, but Bill Yeager, his ex-friend at Stanford. Len ripped the idea off his "friend". Bill has been fighting a losing battle ever since.

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Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 9:25 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I think we can all agree that we'd like a system that you propose there Signy. The only problem is, short of Star Trek, if we are to believe that the Federation is as "perfect" as they portray themselves to be, such a system doesn't even have a name, other than Utopia.

Just wondering what's going to happen now is all. Things are going to change for us either way, whether it's a painful overnight blow, or just a continuation of the slow downward spiral we've been riding since we were born.

I have a couple friends who's dads have made their own livings doing remodeling and construction. That seems to be getting harder and harder for people to do today when big daddy Government wants to come in and tell you how much insurance to carry, who to hire, how to do your job and then have the audacity to make you pay 33% of your earnings for the pleasure of obeying, before you pay property taxes, sales tax, sin tax.... ya know, our basic life taxes....

Someday, quite possibly after this debacle much sooner than I expected, the ability to have your own business will be a relic of the past. Those men are the closest to free that I have ever known.

It's a damn shame....

The system wasn't perfect, but none have ever been, or we'd be living in it now. But for those of the future generations that would have had it in them, it breaks my heart to know that it will be impossible for them to forge their own destiny and fortune in the new system.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Friday, September 26, 2008 9:51 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

6Six,

So we fight.

I'm done with giving up my hopes for tomorrow.

I'm done with praying that those in "power" will do the right thing.

I'm done being part of the "sheeple".

I'm done playing.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 1:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA

At this moment in time, Siggy, I am acknowledging that's all we have.

I mean, for one guy who has to put food on the table besides, I've made a pretty damn good bit of impact, enough to actually have a collective which is self sustaining of other folk who believe in and spread the same principles...

But in the end that amounts to the efforts of one single person, and that is flatly, not enough.

We need ENOUGH people to get pissed off enough about matters to stand up and act on it, and we just ain't got em, it's that simple.

So while it's all well and good to theorise about point Z...

Let's get point A to point B first, yes ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 26, 2008 1:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Wulf, the keystone to that, and your primary goal at this point in time should be the concept of leadership, at least in getting folk to listen to you, to be able to influence and motivate them, and the ability to pass on your message and concepts without being snarled or laughed out of the conversation.

While an extremely cynical take on it, Uncle Makky as I call him has some good advice for ya.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince

Also worthy of note is Mary Renault's "The King Must Die", for reasons only apparent usually AFTER fully reading it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_Must_Die

And a good basis on which to start your concepts or to work into your own, is Peter Kropotkins Mutual Aid Theory, which offers a perspective on human nature counter to Darwin and Uncle Makky, and in my own opinion and empirical experience, far more accurate.
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents
.html

While an Anarchist work, it has value to any political philosophy that desires a better understanding of humans and the reasons and triggers behind their actions.

In order to fight effectively, you must learn how, and the greatest force multiplier you have is right there, between your ears - it's the one weapon no one can counter, disable, outlaw or take from you.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 26, 2008 2:45 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Frem

Re small neurological divots - they can be physically acquired through means other than genetic inheritance.

The brain has to undergo an exacting physical-growth and a wiring-up process which starts months before birth. Many things affect it, for better or worse - extra choline in the mother's diet, or a trivial maternal flu infection during pregnancy. Even the epigenetics of the grandparents influences development and health.

My sense is that, under average circumstances, the earlier a problem shows up, the more likely it is to be something that was acquired in utero. And under normal circumstance it is probably more tied-in with physical brain development gone awry for subtle reasons, since psychological factors aren't a major factor at that age.

Autism is like that - they've been able to pinpoint subtle changes that make diagnosis in the first year possible. (Schizophrenia is an exception, while brains show disorganized structure and function, symptoms usually don't show up till late teens through late twenties.)

I have not found any significant 'other treatments' for even minor neurological divots.

The state of the art is such that even a common and relatively livable condition like mild ADHD (as opposed to say florid psychosis or extreme autism) has no alternative treatment that isn't out and out actual quackery and butchery.

When it comes to socioapthy, arguably another neurological divot, lack of empathy shows up generally well before school - on the extreme end pets die, friends get hurt, things get stolen, fires get set. And there is simply no treatment or program that is geared to change that course.

(As an aside, you may feel that you were a proto-sociopath, and that only through the grace of your upbringing you were spared that fate. But I seriously doubt you were torturing your pets at the age of four. Unless of course there's something you wish to confess ... And I suspect while you may not feel a squishy warmth which is the reward-system for empathy, you in fact have a sense of fair and unfair, right and wrong. The moral sense is there, just not the reward circuits that make it pleasant.)

The point, finally, is that while your call to rely on different options for children born only partly normal is admirable, it's also completely unfounded in reality. At this point there are no other options.

And to further propose a society based those non-existent options is entirely fruitless. Maybe it could happen some day as knowledge of human development is gained - assuming humanity as a whole lasts that long - but not any time soon.

But since we have examples of actual human societies that seem to have avoided the pitfalls the rest of us are mired in - I suggest it behooves us to figure out what they did differently. And I posit that what they did differently was what they told themselves about themselves and their world. And consequently, how they structured their societies. And how that was done - seemed to leave no room for the sociopaths to gain power.

Re-creating their social structures - now that's a do-able goal.

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Friday, September 26, 2008 4:44 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
The point, finally, is that while your call to rely on different options for children born only partly normal is admirable, it's also completely unfounded in reality. At this point there are no other options.

Human flight was at one time unfounded in reality as well.

I am pushing to research and discover other options, which is what CITIVAS and The Child Trauma Academy do, and understand the underlying psychology enough to get maximum use out of the treatments we DO have, point of fact.

There's also the matter of the degree in which the hardwiring is out of wack, and how badly that affects the reasoning process - our understanding of brain function is pretty damn primitive at this time, a minor twitch that may have utterly no affect on one persons behavior may, in another person, cause significant aberration, yes ?

And I heavily dispute the unfounded in reality comment, as a significant fraction of the folk with me in this may indeed qualify as being born only partly normal, but look at say... a predisposition towards alcoholism, for example - that's a predisposition, not a prophecy, and completely avoidable.

You take a normal born with a heavy predisposition towards sociopathy, even if they have the precursors and structure, it's not going to happen unless something pulls the trigger on it.

Now, if someone should be born with a downright misfire, or pre-triggered, if we can call it that, I would say that's an awfully, awfully rare event - far more common is that folks are born with the precursors which are then triggered by environment and then that behavior gets carried on till it calcifies beyond reasonable chances for treatment to have any affect.

That CAN be mitigated if gotten to early enough,

Even in the rare event of a pre-trigger, I am not going to just throw in the towel on a human being cause no CURRENT options exist, I consider it species-vital to find the hell out the whys and wherefores, and in the doing find some method of treatment or mediation cause without it, our CURRENT society is completely fucked by these and has no effective check and balance for it, nor will any built in the future.

You can call it fruitless if you like, but when the current society has no check and balance either, and is destructive in ways all it's own on top of that, seeking a solution that eliminates some or all of those destructive elements is not by any means fruitless, just less effective in the whole.

Quote:
But since we have examples of actual human societies that seem to have avoided the pitfalls the rest of us are mired in - I suggest it behooves us to figure out what they did differently.

No shit sherlock, and I am betting on at least a few of the tenets I've proposed as necessary to such a thing are present too, and it'd be the course of wisdom to find the hell out for sure, no doubt about it.

As for the whole idea, and why I disagree with you so - you'll have to understand the basis of the research I have the background to comprehend, but not sufficient to argue on the fly cause I am not a scientist, right ?

So, I found you a whole collective of the work in a single place to peruse in your spare time, as you may find it informative, and, when you run up against a specific incidence that you dispute, bring it up and we'll thrash out that specific point, rather than trying to argue an entire freakin field and body of research all at once like this.

This link here should contain sufficient stuff to start with.
http://home.earthlink.net/~hopefull/TC_brucedperry.htm

So when you find something you dispute, bring that with how and why you particularly dispute it and any research with contrary results so that it can be discussed and debated individually in a scientific manner rather than as a clash of ideologies, which is what we mostly been doing.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 26, 2008 5:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
And I suspect while you may not feel a squishy warmth which is the reward-system for empathy, you in fact have a sense of fair and unfair, right and wrong. The moral sense is there, just not the reward circuits that make it pleasant.

Close, they just don't work towards humans, in point of fact.

Clipped this bit from an interview with Perry.

"It is a sad reality that for many children, the most nurturing, predictable and unconditional experiences come from animals -- dogs or cats. Children with abusive and unpredictable adults caring for them, put their hopes and dreams and faith in relationships with non-humans. So when they see an animal die, they actually feel the loss. But when a human dies - they may not. It is, however, the rare individual who can kill a human without remorse and still have a connection to anything living. But it happens."

I DO connect to animals, to a degree that weirds people out sometimes, I understand their emotional and non verbal signals a hell of a lot better, and this allows a certain degree of communication most folk just don't realize.

Do you know how a cat smiles, and how to smile back ?

I do.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, September 26, 2008 5:16 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Do you know how a cat smiles, and how to smile back ?

Oddly - I do as well. But it's not a big Cheshire grin ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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