Some ruminatin' . . . by Static

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Some ruminatin' . . .

POSTED BY: STATIC
UPDATED: Monday, May 17, 2004 15:53
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Friday, May 14, 2004 11:11 AM

My idea behind this is to offer my two cents to several different threads that have been posted here in regards to the unjust war in Iraq and the acts committed by American soldiers, as well as the decisions made by our President.

Of course, I know that you guys understand that I don't speak for the Armed Forces as a whole, nor do I represent the President, The Defense Secretary or even my own unit. I am speaking as an individual.

Afghanistan: Just war. Noble cause. No-brainer.

Iraq: COULD have been a just war. . .COULD have been a noble cause . . .COULD have been a no-brainer. . .but our government, in a mad scramble to get the blessings of the UN, which we didn't really need, screwed up and lost the world's support. Iraq is a terrorist nation. It is a nation that supports terrorism and offers haven and comfort to terrorists. Iraq earned a spot on 'the list' long ago. If Bush had simply said, "We're going to go finish the job that the UN would not allow us to finish back in 1991.", we wouldn't be sitting here with egg on our face.

I helped liberate Kuwait in 1991. I wasn't a pilot then, so I didn't hover above the war in my little kevlar cocoon. I met an 85-year-old woman who was gang-raped by Iraqi soldiers. I met the 13-year-old Kuwati girl who was raped by Iraqi soldiers and had her left nipple bitten completely off.

I met survivors of the Kuwait city hospital massacre, where Iraqi soldiers walked the halls of the hospital randomly firing their weapons into patient rooms.

The crap that those morons at the prison in Iraq did. . .stupid. Extremely stupid. PLEASE remember that these were the acts of a few, not the execution of an Army policy. ALSO. . .please remember that our President is NOT aware of every act taken by every soldier at every moment. Point blank. . .it wasn't his fault. Yes, he's our commander in chief, so YES, he will have to shoulder responsibility . .but it's not like he said, "Yeah, guys. . .go ahead. That looks like fun."

The beheading of an American civilian. . .unforgivable, inexcusable, outrageous. "Retaliation for the atrocities committed against Iraqi prisoners" my big hairy bum.

Now then. . .quick detail. . .anyone catch who those guys belong to? Al Queda? Does that name sound familiar? Yeah. . .those are the guys that flew a couple of planes through our office buildings. Lessee. . .Al-Queda is operating in Iraq and retaliating for acts committed against Iraqi citizens.

The Bush Administration should have had the guts to go ahead and say, "We're going after Iraq because they're just one more corner those cockroaches can hide in. We start kicking enough kiesters around here, and folks will realize that it doesn't pay to be friends with Al-Queda." But no. . .he had to try to win UN support with a bunch of stuff about WMD. Now we find ourselves in this situation.

Let me sum up. . .and if I've offended you, I hope you've kept your mind and heart open long enough to read this last bit. . .

Iraq is an unjust war. We're doubly screwed because we can't really pull out. . .if we do, the place will be even more screwed up than it was, and it'll be OUR fault. We have to repair the damage we've done.

HOWEVER. . .Iraq is ONLY unjust because of the CITED reasons for going in. Iraq is a terrorist nation. Thhey support terrorists, they give comfort and haven to terrorists. The Hussein regime was a powderkeg poised to set the middle east on fire, and if left unchecked, Saddam and his sons could have easily been the orchestrators of events that would have made 9/11 look like a sunday-school picnic.

Lives have been horribly horribly wasted. . .but there is NO war in history, no matter how just, where the loss of life was not a waste.

Your support of the troops, even if you do not support the government which commands those troops is truly a stirring thing. In fact, it fills me with great personal pride to know that the right to question our government is still alive in the country I fight to defend.

If any of you ever wish to ask me about Afghanistan, I will answer as best as I can without, of course, going into the classified stuff.

Thanks for your time.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Friday, May 14, 2004 11:24 AM

CALHOUN

Is there a war on?

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Friday, May 14, 2004 1:02 PM

LIGHTINTHEBRAINPAN

Thanks for your post, Static. I'm a civilian, have no military tradition in my family, and as a teenager protested against the Vietnam War; but, having read about what happened in 1991, I concluded that we betrayed those people, and that is for ME, as an American citizen, the hardest thing to accept.

I too wish that Bush could have simply stated, "We are going back in to finish the job." Perhaps the administration had reason to believe that would not be enough to convince the American people that it was the right thing to do (let alone the world). Or perhaps he didn't want to make his father "look bad."

The US helped create Sadam Hussein, perhaps in one of those deals with the devil that we seem to make when we have to choose the lesser of several evils. In 2003, we had the chance to confront that mistake, albeit too late. I keep hoping that if we persist--and if Bush can start to articulate the mission to the American people--we might still have some chance to START what will have to be a long-term process toward a better life in that region. Yes, it's in our own best interests as a nation, but I don't believe that's necessarily an evil in and of itself. Of all the governments in the world... and despite all of its faults... ours is still the best.

I also believe it's ultimately in the best interests of the people in the Middle East as well. It may sound trite, but I believe there is nothing so essential to human beings as the freedom to work hard AND by that labor own their own property and the means to make their children's lives better. If people have something to work for, they have less time to spend in terrorist activity. Period. Let's face it, many Arab leaders do NOT want this for their people.

Oh well, this board isn't the place for such discussions, I guess, and I know that the Mid East is waaay more complicated than can be distilled into a post. It's just my two cents as a person who happens to be in a moment of some despair about what I'm seeing in the news.

And also my small way of showing support for you [Static] and the troops. You guys are doing a great job under rough circumstances and, to the extent possible in any war, you guys DO have a noble mission---if only you're given the means and the leadership to JUST DO IT.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 6:28 AM

GHOULMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
SNIP!

Iraq is NOT a terrorist haven. Never was. I blame the White House for this obvious lie.

There is no such thing as a terrorist nation. That's not a proper phrase.

Afghanistan is where lots of actual terrorists are. Yea, no brainer.

But you're way off from the third paragraph Static.

EVERYONE who was a terrorist expert told us after 9/11 Iraq isn't a terrorist hide out. Besides, the USA already controlled that countries airspace and knew what was happening all over Iraq. The US even bombed Iraq regularly. Not much of a threat eh?

Why do you say Iraq is a terrist hideout? It isn't. The only people who say it is, was, or ever was are the people in the White House. Guess why.

BTW, since it's Rumsfeld and Bush who are to blame for the torture of prisoners ALL THROUGH THE US ARMY PRISON SYSTEM I find it shameful STATIC forwards the propoganda that "a few sick" American soldiers are to blame.

No American soldiers are to blame. Thier bosses are to blame.

Since the torture scandel and from the shitty performance of American forces in general these last few years I've heard that on the whole most feel the USA has made a complete fool of itself (like in Vietnam... you know, the other war Dick Cheney worked on). Basically, the US invasion of Iraq is seen as an illegal and evil occupation on the level of Saddam. Murder? Rape? Torture? The USA has shown it does that too (as anyone who reads knew already). Is it any wonder most American Generals were against this action in the first place? Maybe those Generals were wondering who would get the blame if things went wrong.

Hey Static. Ever been spit on because you're an American soldier? Start counting the days. Start wondering who is to blame. Really.

Aside from that; I think it's a good time to remind and thank those who served in the Gulf Conflict or Iraq I. That 'highway of death' thing certainly is fitting punishment for the crimes Static describes the Iraq Rep Guard commited. See? The USA had a great past and had gained great honour after thier terrific performance over 10 years ago. That's all pissed away of course...

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Monday, May 17, 2004 8:30 AM

JASONZZZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:

BTW, since it's Rumsfeld and Bush who are to blame for the torture of prisoners ALL THROUGH THE US ARMY PRISON SYSTEM I find it shameful STATIC forwards the propoganda that "a few sick" American soldiers are to blame.

(Buzzer sounds) Mmmmmeeerrr! wrong! If you have proof that "prisoner torture" was happening all over Iraq in every single US rrran Military Prison - show it. So far, it has only been found for a handful of folks specifically in the 372nd MP Company. The behavior was *not* wide spread. Read the Taguba report. It outlines everything in there that Gen. Taguba has done in his investigation. It is the failing morale, lack of training, and the complete lack of discipline that provided the hotbed for these few to have done what they have done. It didn't help that they were dumb and readily took the suggestions to do those things from the civilian contractors - Steven Stephanowicz and John Israel (page 48 of the report specifically cites them).

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Monday, May 17, 2004 8:50 AM

GHOULMAN

The Taguba report is very peliminary and, frankly, low level Regular Army. They wouldn't know, they wouldn't report. It's not thier job.

Sure you could argue the fact, but if you had been paying attention to questions put to Tabula then you'd know there are about 5 other investigations that have been going on since January. Tabula was not commenting on any of these.

It's a simple quesiton. Do you think American soldiers are all a bunch of Nazi, racist, scum or do you think they were ordered to do it? Trust me, wide spread behavior of any kind has a cause.

Big clue: this torture is going on in every jail 'enemy combatants' are held. All of them. Sure, that may not be proven (and will not be until the investigations and trials and hearings are over), but it's the truth. Hey, ask an American soldier, don't ask me.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 8:53 AM

GHOULMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(Buzzer sounds) Mmmmmeeerrr! wrong! If you have proof that "prisoner torture" was happening all over Iraq in every single US rrran Military Prison - show it.

btw there are pictures! Pictures from more than one prison. So yea... there is proof. Try again genius.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 10:03 AM

SIGMANUNKI

*sigh* I was hoping that this one would go away as it is basically a direct copy of what is/was going on in other threads as of late. But, here we go.

Jasonzzz, there may not be explicit *proof* that there is a wide spread "policy" of torture in Iraq, but, we do have good reason to suspect it. Was this a policy just at this particular prison (see quote below) or was it throughout? Time will tell.

First off, we all know about and have seen those infamous pictures. So, we *know* that this *is* happening.

Secondly, the Red Cross reported to the white house (in February I believe) that this could be going on and described it as a pattern of behaviour.

So, from only these two points we get some pretty disturbing stuff. Such as, if we assume that this torture isn't going in some wide spread manner then this is just the first incidence before the damn breaks.

But, then again (from http://www.citizenonline.net/citizen/archive/article700F8846F31A4FF485
CC2DCB5A11057A.asp):
"
According to the report, the organization’s delegates visited Abu Ghraib in October 2003 and witnessed “the practice of keeping persons deprived of their liberty completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness” for days.
“Upon witnessing such cases, the (Red Cross) interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities. The military intelligence officer in charge of interrogation explained that this practice was ‘part of the process.’” The report said that what Red Cross representatives saw “went beyond exceptional cases” and was “in some cases tantamount to torture.”
"

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, May 17, 2004 11:17 AM

JASONZZZ

Mmmmerrrr! wrong again! The 800th MP ran all of the US prisons in Iraq. Gen. Taguba's investigation is all about that.

If you don't think people are coming up with this stuff all by themselves, just go to any Frat rush week. (Or any corporate work place for that matter, some people are just incessantly sitting around dreaming up sadistic crap to *torture* each other ) People come up with stuff like that all by themselves and it just keep escalating in one-up-man-ships.

Maybe you were deprived and your parents never sent you to summer camp. Never woke up with mud in your shoes, your cot (and you) sitting out in the middle of the field with you and your sleeping bag ducted tape to it. It's called a prank, and when people are bored out of their minds and bake in the heat long enough. They come up with increasingly stupid crap to do to each other.

If you want something more specific, read this.

http://www.prisonexp.org

You might wanna point out where else the pictures are coming from. Since there is only pictures from Abu Ghraib so far. While there were reports of singular instances of detainee abuse at 2 or 3 other camps - they were not at the same scale as at Abu Ghraib. Why? Because all of the interrogation activities are consolidated at newly established Theatre Joint Interrogation and Detention Center at Abu Ghraib. The mixed roles of MI and MP was part of the basis for their problems.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
(Buzzer sounds) Mmmmmeeerrr! wrong! If you have proof that "prisoner torture" was happening all over Iraq in every single US rrran Military Prison - show it.

btw there are pictures! Pictures from more than one prison. So yea... there is proof. Try again genius.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 11:48 AM

JASONZZZ

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
*sigh* I was hoping that this one would go away as it is basically a direct copy of what is/was going on in other threads as of late. But, here we go.

Jasonzzz, there may not be explicit *proof* that there is a wide spread "policy" of torture in Iraq, but, we do have good reason to suspect it. Was this a policy just at this particular prison (see quote below) or was it throughout? Time will tell.

First off, we all know about and have seen those infamous pictures. So, we *know* that this *is* happening.

If I was some sort of conspiracy theorist, I might "suspect" that the pictures and videos and everything was planted by some kind of free-militia group or some radical journalist/media organization hell-bent on fabricating world issues just so they can boost their ratings.

But I am not, so I am not even going to suggest it. I am not disputing that abuses went on. I am saying that it's possible for people come up with stuff like that all on their own - that I doubt that it was some sort of Higher "UnWritten" order/command from Georgey or Rummey.

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Secondly, the Red Cross reported to the white house (in February I believe) that this could be going on and described it as a pattern of behaviour.

There is ICRC again - perfectly deserving all of my respect. An organization that steals money and cheats the people who donate them *and* the people who need them. Now there is an organization that is ripe with problems at the very top.

So far, I have only read that they bitched and complained - they are always bitching and complaining about the smallest crap. Has anyone seen their actual report or complaint? Any details other than "We complaint about some going-ons back in Feb..." Now that there is this going on, they want a share of the limelight, so they go and dig up whatever arbitrary phone log they have and post it to the media. "Oh yeah, ur, back in Feb, we complaint to someone about some prisons getting Sugar Puffs instead of Wheaties, that's really unconscionable"." I am not trying to minimize it, but the media is sending all of these things out, the ICRC is saying all these things. Where is the report? What is it that they actually found - back when?

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

So, from only these two points we get some pretty disturbing stuff. Such as, if we assume that this torture isn't going in some wide spread manner then this is just the first incidence before the damn breaks.

Why does it have to be a huge conspiratorial thing? If it's not some widespread thing, then wouldn't it by nature, be something smallish and locally contained? Maybe something a bunch of dummies sitting around the poker table telling each other "Say, last night, I kicked the shit out of this one guy - didn't like the way he looked at me"... and some other guy/gal "Oh yeah, I'll show you, I'm gonna kicked the shit out of two guys and I'll sig the dogs on 'em"

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

But, then again (from http://www.citizenonline.net/citizen/archive/article700F8846F31A4FF485
CC2DCB5A11057A.asp):
"
According to the report, the organization’s delegates visited Abu Ghraib in October 2003 and witnessed “the practice of keeping persons deprived of their liberty completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness” for days.
“Upon witnessing such cases, the (Red Cross) interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities. The military intelligence officer in charge of interrogation explained that this practice was ‘part of the process.’” The report said that what Red Cross representatives saw “went beyond exceptional cases” and was “in some cases tantamount to torture.”
"

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Ok. now here we are talking about one thing. Abuses - keeping someone naked, in the dark ,etc, etc. Which is different from sadistic and torturous crap like having them masturbate each other or sticking things up each other's bum.

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Monday, May 17, 2004 1:54 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Things have a tendency of escalating don't they. It may have started off as something a little stupid like who could get away with doing something, but, over time things would get worse without intervention.

You can't seriously think that I'll believe that something of this magnitude went on for any period of time without anybodies superiors knowing that it was going on, do you?

And for the record, the word is torture, *not* abuse. One of the other threads that discussed such things had a quote from the Geneva convention that stated that such things (ie you reference keeping naked, etc) is torture. You must be aware of the fact that torture is described in physical and mental terms, right?

You say that you are not minimizing it, but, that is exactly what you do when you call it abuse instead of torture and call into question things that have been brought to light.

And I never said that it was a huge conspiracy thing. I said:

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, from only these two points we get some pretty disturbing stuff. Such as, if we assume that this torture isn't going in some wide spread manner then this is just the first incidence before the damn breaks.

Which is about human behaviour, not some conspiracy theory.

There have been studies done where people are divided in two groups (one the prisoners, the other the guards) and then put in a mock environment to see what happens. Every time the guard group became sadistic (Stanford 1971 I believe).

So, if you put people under an extreme amount of stress (ie an US soldier in Iraq) something like this is only a matter of time.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:22 PM

PEACE

I recommend folks read this:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

Seymour Hersh is pretty well respected, and has sources; and his report hangs together, imo.

Now I'm off to the ICRC site to see what they got....

Oh, bugger! Now I have to wait for someone to wake up!

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:31 PM

JASONZZZ

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Things have a tendency of escalating don't they. It may have started off as something a little stupid like who could get away with doing something, but, over time things would get worse without intervention.

You can't seriously think that I'll believe that something of this magnitude went on for any period of time without anybodies superiors knowing that it was going on, do you?

And for the record, the word is torture, *not* abuse. One of the other threads that discussed such things had a quote from the Geneva convention that stated that such things (ie you reference keeping naked, etc) is torture. You must be aware of the fact that torture is described in physical and mental terms, right?

ok. I think you and I agree on some of the things.
And I've read the Geneva Convention about a couple of thousand times now. If you operate in the frontline areas like I did (or anywhere close enough to it where you might be in danger of having the lines breached and your ass end up behind the lines), you damn well remember how the heck you should be treated should you become a POW. IAC, What I am trying to convey is those comparatively menial things versus getting your head bashed in, having your eyelids glued wide open, having each of your bones in your body broken slowly over a period of time, and having your skin slowly flayed off your body is a bit different then getting your food couple of hours late and left naked in a cell. Yeah, it's all described rather broadly as *torture*, but I think it's a little different and rather a broad range of things would be considered *torture*. Torture is someone else's words - however we label it, it's fine - by law, you are not suppose to do any of it. But I would just like it to be recognized that there are a million different shades of things that fall under all of that category. And some of what I've seen fall under the "panty-waist" side of things as compared to the "Holy Shit, keep that away from me, I am eating dinner, for crying out loud" middle of the road, and definitely different from "Christ, I thought they did away with those kinds of machines back in the middle/dark ages". Maybe you are right, maybe they have more "drawn and quartering", "the stretcher", "the Iron Maiden", "the hot poker in the eye" stuff that we haven't seen yet. (Oh, and let's not forget the slowing drawing out of the entrails - bonus goes to the one who names that trick)

But then again, maybe there isn't any. And what we've seen is it.

The abuses that I talked about were the things that people are bitching about at the other camps, detentees getting bumped or shoved in the line. To me, that's a bit more harassment than being abusive.

All of this PC crap is getting out of hand - soldiers can't even curse at each other (ok, you are not supposed to, but cursing still goes on). It's like we are going to hurt each other's feelings - for God's sakes - we KILL people for a living. We are supposed to worry about cursing and calling each other bad names?

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

You say that you are not minimizing it, but, that is exactly what you do when you call it abuse instead of torture and call into question things that have been brought to light.

And I never said that it was a huge conspiracy thing. I said:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, from only these two points we get some pretty disturbing stuff. Such as, if we assume that this torture isn't going in some wide spread manner then this is just the first incidence before the damn breaks.

Which is about human behaviour, not some conspiracy theory.

There have been studies done where people are divided in two groups (one the prisoners, the other the guards) and then put in a mock environment to see what happens. Every time the guard group became sadistic (Stanford 1971 I believe).

So, if you put people under an extreme amount of stress (ie an US soldier in Iraq) something like this is only a matter of time.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

It was the Stanford Prison Experiment in 1971. I've quoted it and asked folks to look at it themselves about 20 thousand times here now. I am glad that you've brought it up... for reference.

http://www.prisonexp.org

http://www.prisonexp.org

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Monday, May 17, 2004 2:53 PM

FOSTER

Static,
I like your point over all about seeking approval. Not necessary. If we are going to have troops there though we should supply them with the things that will help them stay alive. Perhaps having ARMORED transportation and such would be a good idea. But no sending that is more expensive than losing lives. I do have to mention that our worst day in Iraq is better than some of the best in Vietnam.

To address the prisoner abuse scandal however I would like to point out that these things happen probably every day in American prisons with victims who are citizens of our country. Interesting how no one is making a huge stink over that at least not in the media. Question. Has any one seen a film such as Helter Skelter that makes one wish that the perpetrators burn in a special place? Who at some point has not said fry the sucker? How are our people who have been captured being treated?

We are not dealing with a western culture in any sort of form it is completely alien to what people in the US are used to. If anyone thinks that deep down all cultures are alike have the same belief systems well you need to go find yourself a little more education. Cultures are vastly different and theirs is nothing like yours. They may share the same “God” as a branch of the Abraham family but they assimilated a vastly different cultural origin and value system.

It is easy to sit thousands of miles away from the point of origin and receive second hand reports and criticize. One can not say with a hundred percent certainty that you would have done the same thing if you were in that position. The armed forces are a family of sorts, and if a group is killing one’s family members, it tends to piss one off.

If you truly want the war over quickly the best way to do it is pour money in. Yes I know that it is expensive but it is less expensive than being over there for years as a police force. Taking away money only limits what we can accomplish.

"The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility." -Admiral Sir John A. Fisher

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Monday, May 17, 2004 3:53 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
And some of what I've seen fall under the "panty-waist" side of things
...

I haven't really seen any of those, but, then again, our personal definitions are probably somewhat different.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
Maybe you are right, maybe they have more "drawn and quartering", "the stretcher", "the Iron Maiden", "the hot poker in the eye" stuff that we haven't seen yet.
...

But then again, maybe there isn't any. And what we've seen is it.

Rummy himself said that we've not seen it all. So, the question remains, will we and how much worse is it? Only time will tell.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
The abuses that I talked about were the things that people are bitching about at the other camps, detentees getting bumped or shoved in the line. To me, that's a bit more harassment than being abusive.

It only depends if that bumping or shoving is just that or done with the butt of a rifle. If the former I'd say grow up. If the latter, well, to put it mildly, that isn't so nice.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
All of this PC crap is getting out of hand - soldiers can't even curse at each other (ok, you are not supposed to, but cursing still goes on). It's like we are going to hurt each other's feelings - for God's sakes - we KILL people for a living. We are supposed to worry about cursing and calling each other bad names?

I definitely agree with the PC crap getting out of hand. Over here in North America we've been flooded with certain terms that we can't use because that group (or someone "defending" that group) says that it's offensive. So, then we have the term of the week for a lot groups in society. I find stuff like that going on bloody well ridiculous.

But, in Iraq given the cross-cultural aspect there, I think that when dealing with the Iraqis, the US should handle it will extreme caution. After all, when arresting someone you usually put them on there stomachs on the ground, which usually means the forehead to the ground as well. The last here being *extremely* offensive to the Iraqi people.

I'm just saying that being PC in some cases may be appropriate and will stop some misunderstandings from happening. After all, the US could really benefit from stopping misunderstandings right now. Well, with the latest developments and all.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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