A Question for Mr. Obama. by Wulfenstar

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

There are many "blinded" studies that show prejudice still exists: testers with the same financial/ personal background calling up about rent, some sounding Anglo, black, or Hispanic, being treated very differently. Testers with the same financial qualifications- some women, black, or hispanic- applying for loans and getting different results. Applications for research grants submitted "blind" being treated worse if a woman's name was attached to it. (Women had to be seven times more productive than men to get the same grant.) What may look like gross "unfairness" to YOU may be simple fairness in reality.

If we could establish a TRUE meritocracy... require that ALL applications for loans, rent, school admission, grants, jobs etc... be evaluated without names or voices attached... that would be a step in the right direction.

Then we could focus on getting the education resources to those who truly need them.

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 7:56 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

That is exactly how the housing crisis started however.

Banks were forced to give loans to those who were never going to be able to afford them.

So fair enough.

No names, no voices. Just credit?

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 8:01 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Credit history, employment history, family income, down payment. Name, age, sexual orientation, and anything else irrelevant redacted.

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 8:23 AM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I have a question for Mr. Obama.
Will you end Affirmative Action and any race-based "initiatives"?

It's why I didn't vote for him. He will not. In fact it's probably going to get worse. He, and Michelle are Affirmative action advocates.
His redistribution of wealth plan is also another low blow for hard working Americans.
I like my salary at my job. I don't want to "spread" it around to those too lazy to work.

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 8:26 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"I like my salary at my job. I don't want to "spread" it around to those too lazy to work."

Do you make more than $250,000 a year ?

I didn't think so. Don't worry, then. You'll be getting a tax break. And if you don't believe me, just ask Rap. He's got even better news for you. According to him, it's even odds you'll get more from the government than you pay in taxes.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 8:34 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Why the family income?

Isnt that a bit invasive?

Your family may be multi-trillionairs, but YOU may be a poor working slob because you chose a different path.

Hell, your family may hate you and youll never see a dime of it.

Leave the family income out of it, and I agree with you.

At least in terms of loans.

Now, what about quotas?

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 9:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Why the family income?

Isnt that a bit invasive?

Your family may be multi-trillionairs, but YOU may be a poor working slob because you chose a different path.

Which is why I had to work 2 jobs to put myself through school - as an incoming freshman at 28 years old (who'd been living on his own since the age of 16), the school *insisted* on having my parents' wage & earnings statements. And because of what they earned, even though we were estranged, I couldn't qualify for student loans. And as a high-school dropout, I didn't qualify for anything in the way of scholarships. But I still managed to work and pay my way through 3 years of college with a 4.0 average. Maybe before I die I'll have a chance to go finish.

Mike

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 9:32 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, I didn't mean "mom and dad". I meant "spouse", as in... a person who ie obligated to you financially.

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 9:38 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Kwicko

I had the same thing happen to me. And since I was going though school during the 'Reagan revolution' when I went to apply for food stamps, they looked at my income and expenses and said -nobody could possibly be making what you're making and going through school on that money. You MUST be getting help from your parents (with a sneer - literally). Denied. No appeal. Don't come back."

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 9:40 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Which is WHY using the government to solve soical/cultural problems will NEVER work.

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 9:46 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

I'm not sure whom you're answering. But I wasn't looking for the government to solve any social/ cultural problems. I just wanted to get food stamps to help with the expenses while I was going through school - something to which I was legally entitled at the time (and which I would have fought for if I wasn't so otherwise busy).

BTW - if the government isn't able to 'solve problems' then I guess the rest of the industrialized world (and much of the non-industrialized world) has healthcare all wrong. I'll just have to let all those long-lived people and healthy babies with socialized medicine know that they too can have the benefits of shorter lives, more dead babies, and more people without health care and with medically-induced bankruptcy if they just get with the program that works, damnit !

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 3:28 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Banks were forced to give loans to those who were never going to be able to afford them

BTW

This has been disproved over and over and over again, both by "outside" sources AND by peeps here on the board who worked in banks and made mortgage loans. No bank was "forced" to give loans to the poor, so please get that outta your head, 'mkay?

The banks created those loans because they got ultra-greedy. They made the loans, then bundled them into CDOs (which as allowed by deregulation) and sold and re sold them all around the world

What Fannie and Freddie did was to (unwisely) provide a market to which those subprime loans could be sold. Even then, Fannie and Freddie soaked up less than a quarter of the subprimes that were generated, and about half of the loans with toxic features were made to high-income peeps who would have qualified for a traditional loan.

PLEASE PLEASE STOP with the nonsense! Put the blame where it belongs, not where it doesn't!

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Thursday, November 6, 2008 4:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

If *I* ever crack 205k a year, you know what ?

Frankly, the folks in need, down at the bottom end would be WELCOME to that extra 3-5%, if for naught else simple payback to a system that allowed me to climb that high.

Ponder the caste systems of India, Sumptuary laws of england, and all the other stupid bullshit to separate folk into classes over the course of history, and the amount of violence and misery that has resulted.

Sure, I'd still bitch about throwing it away to hostile foreign governments and war toys, needless waste and all that, but to cut a chunk back and toss it down the ladder to help give the folks behind me a leg up ?

Nah, that I wouldn't begrudge so much.

Don't sneer at one of the few things that makes America still a teensy bit better than many other countries.

-F

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Friday, November 7, 2008 5:37 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

But getting back tot he point of my little excercise.

To bring this country together, to remind us that we are all "just folks"...

Lets end all of the race base intiatives.

Make it an economic issue, not one of race.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 5:51 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I'd be in favor of eliminating any quota systems, if that's what you mean.

I ought not to be hired in favor of a more qualified candidate merely because my parents were born in another country.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 7, 2008 6:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
If *I* ever crack 205k a year, you know what ?

Frankly, the folks in need, down at the bottom end would be WELCOME to that extra 3-5%, if for naught else simple payback to a system that allowed me to climb that high.

Rather than let the government decide how to spend your money, contribute to a charity you've researched and are sure will use the money wisely. Not only can you see the good, you'll also (at top rates) reduce your Federal tax by a buck for every three you donate, plus whatever you save on state taxes.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 7, 2008 6:20 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Lets end all of the race base intiatives. Make it an economic issue, not one of race.

I agree, with one exception... I think white suburban schools need to bring in excellent black teachers and administrators, especially men.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 6:40 AM

Obama has at least adressed that issue in a big way, in his speech about race. He recognized in it that there are many who feel like the system as set up has disenfranchized them, has taken their opportunity and given it to somebody else.

............

Actually, what you're talking about is ideally how we should be looking at the problem Wulf,
if things weren't broken the way they are.

Black families are still significantly disadvantaged in this nation, and sadly that does require a drastic correction. That doesn't mean that there aren't even white families out there that need help, and hopefully a good deal of Obama's Presidency will adress that,

but it does mean that affirmative action, as I see it, is a neccesary redistribution, even if it lowers the bar slightly. And why? Just taking school for example, while some of these kids may be performing at lower grade averages, or with lower standardized test scores, evnironment does matter.

If you've never seen what both teachers and students have to overcome to teach and to learn anything in some inner-city schools, then you should check out The Wire: Season 4(for a fictionalized example) or Hard times at Douglass High(for the documentary of the same school).

There is an institutionalized disadvantage, and it stands to reason to me, that it requires an institutional adjustment. Racially, we are still a segregated United States, and that is an illness that breeds more of the same. Now, while I recognize that affirmative action supposedly stokes that racism, I think that is offset by the matriculation - BECAUSE when blacks associate daily with whites, and whites with blacks, tensions not withstanding, barriers are broken down, stereo-types are eroded, blind hatred is trumped by familiarity.

And frankly, we all need that, and you probably more than most, Wulf.

Is it fair? NO. Are the current imbalances fair? NO. So that's really not a particularly salient point. What we're looking at is a future that will be more even keel. We're looking at the children of blacks who are helped out of bad situations, to be raised in better schools in better neighborhoods, in a more stable home-life. We're looking for that next generation to be a generation that has solid enough a foundation, that it can help out it's own relatives, you know, through all the ways the many white families can....through example, through a degree of nepotism, through just being a beacon of real possibility, something at the level of attainability.

Your hands-off solution is just too slow, and it will continue to result in disenfranchisement of people in this nation, just for the color of their skin. Yes, our solution might close a couple doors for some whites looking for a certain job or a certain school, but lets not pretend that there aren't many doors open. Will it make it harder for some who already had it hard. Admittedly, yes.

I'm willing to admit that that will even be a tragedy. But for most people, it will only be a set-back. They will have been raised with the proper infrastructure, they will have been educated in a better school, they will still go to college, if slightly less in esteem, and they will still have the advantage of color on their side, when they come out and into the workforce, where white skin is still an advantage in hiring(a study was posted and discussed on this board about six months ago which dealt with skin shades directly correlating to hiring practices, all other things being equal).

So yeah, it's an overcorrection, but an overcorrection is needed, and its not just needed for black people, its needed for all of us. For the health of our nation, we need to fix this. It is a crying shame, and it is one that effects how we all look at our nation, and how we look at our fellow Americans, and how we work together as a whole to a common purpose.

Affirmative action won't be the answer, because it does carry with it, its own baggage, but in my idealistic, totally untested future vision, post Affirmative action, when it is no longer needed, when it has already corrected, and can fade into the history books, then we can truly start to heal those remaining wounds. And there will be doves! and Rainbows! And Chocolate Cows!

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Friday, November 7, 2008 6:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

The very most basic problem here is shortage and the zero-sum game. If there was a decent-paying job for everyone who wanted to work and a good school for everyone who wanted to be educated, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But as it is, my gain is your loss. My job, your unemployment. My opportunity, your closed door. My education, your lack. That is the system as capitalists want it and as capitalists have structured it. I lay that directly at the feet of that 0.1% of the population that controls 50% of the wealth. They have set up a nice system where THEY get all the $$$ while WE fight for the crumbs.

them!

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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:06 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"There is an institutionalized disadvantage, and it stands to reason to me, that it requires an institutional adjustment. Racially, we are still a segregated United States, and that is an illness that breeds more of the same. Now, while I recognize that affirmative action supposedly stokes that racism, I think that is offset by the matriculation - BECAUSE when blacks associate daily with whites, and whites with blacks, tensions not withstanding, barriers are broken down, stereo-types are eroded, blind hatred is trumped by familiarity

And frankly, we all need that, and you probably more than most, Wulf."

Really? Really, that is what you think?

Righteous, you do not know me. Or my history, or my "familiarity".

I am keeping things civil by stating that you should be carefull with your own "prejudices".(i.e pre-judgements)

The old ideas/beliefs of a "racist" America have been proven dead and buried.

Forcing continued falacies of race being the reason folks fail, will only allow it to continue.

We have a chance here, people. To look/act as one people. Not a collection of different subsets.

The ideology/propoganda of "instituional racism" has been delt a huge blow. Do not try and revive it. Let it die so we can all move ahead.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:17 AM

No they haven't dude.

You saying they have doesn't prove it, and Obama's ascendency to Presidency does do a great thing for our country in that regard, and does prove that in this instance, people were willing to take a chance with "the black guy"

and that many wanted to make that leap forward. I'm not going to downplay its significance. It was huge. It in no way proves that race is not a factor in this country.

.................

Sorry for the little jab, and I know I don't know you. That's why I said "probably." I am curious though, about how far off I am.

I just want to know you Wulf...let me know you...

..................

Race does still matter, and the numbers don't lie brother. I'm going to revisit this point, once again.

If race does not matter, then why do more blacks live in poverty? If race doesn't matter, then why are more blacks incarcerated than whites?

If its not systematic disenfranchisement, then your only other choice is to say its a result of inferiority. Otherwise, everything else being equal, everything should be equal, right? Or what am I missing here?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The old ideas/beliefs of a "racist" America have been proven dead and buried.

Really?

Prove it. Bring up some studies that peeps are treated fairly no matter their color. If you can find five studies I'd be amazed. Meanwhile, I'll bring a dozen to the table showing otherwise.

---------------------------------
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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:34 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So your answer is to continue the racism, but in the "other" direction?

I really wonder if you, or anyone else, knows what that will do.

I have seen racism. I have felt its effects. I have known the ugly violence that ensues from it.

I pray that none will know what it is like.

But you will, if you do not let it die.

Make another choice.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:41 AM

in my long post, I suggested that this would improve race relations, not aggravate them,

so no, my answer is not to do what you just said.

And I stand by the fact that while it may be an overcorrection,(one that I think is needed), it is a policy that combats racial inequality(and thus racism that builds out of discernable differences).

It enfranchises a populace that has been disenfranchised, and is still being disenfranchised.

.............

Obviously you have an ugly story in your past, and I'm sorry to hear that. You certainly drew your own lessons from the experience. Perhaps I would draw different ones though, as an outsider. Being up close isn't always an advantage for perspective, but it is certainly a powerful lesson, I'm sure.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:47 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

So the failed, divisive, racist get-back-at-em, policies of the baby-Boomers will just continue?

The pendulum needs to swing back and "over-correct"?

No.

Not this time.

Not THIS generation.

We have a chance to stop the cycle. End the endless back-and-forth racism.

I pray that we have the guts to see beyond our indoctrination and make a different choice.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 7:55 AM

do you think less of a black man who was helped by affirmative action? Do you think less of his qualifications if he makes it through college and gets a good job?

If you do, then you're the one allowing yourself to be stoked by the supposed divisiveness of this policy, and are to blame, in your small part for that continued illness in this country.

I only say it is an overcorrection, because I believe that it might affect white families by taking something that seemed wide open to them and closing some of those doors, while opening them to people who only knew a wall existed.

My point was not that we need all black ceo's, and all black Senators and congressmen, and white slavery at some point in the future. The result will hardly be an overcorrection. It will just help to balance things out.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 8:23 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

We can be a culturally diverse people, and are, without resorting to racism.

End the quotas. End the cycle.

Truly make each person accountable for their own actions.

I question those who call for "balancing" If THEY were the ones who got "balanced", how would they feel?

Some might be fine with it.

But why even bother with "tipping the scales", and "over-correction" when RIGHT NOW, we can equalize everything?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 8:43 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"End the quotas. End the cycle."

The problem is, you seem to think once quotas are gone all problems will be over, as if quotas are the only problem left. Sad fact is, racism and sexism are alive and well, even thriving. There are too many studies and statistics showing that to be the case. If you want to close your eyes and plug your ears while singing la la la la la la very loudly - and pretend you live in a fair and unbiased society - that's your choice. But you won't find many people joining you in your private little world, too many people have to live in the real world.

You may have experienced prejudice. I get to 'pass' for a redneck. What people still say when they think they have a safe audience is shocking.

BTW, if Obama had been white it wouldn't have even been a contest. And one milestone can be easily surpassed by another. All it takes is one well-placed bullet.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:09 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"What people still say when they think they have a safe audience is shocking."

Its called Free Speech. And? It shocks you? Im sorry that are you so delicate that what people say outside of your "safe zone" upsets you so much.

"If you want to close your eyes and plug your ears while singing la la la la la la very loudly - and pretend you live in a fair and unbiased society - that's your choice. But you won't find many people joining you in your private little world, too many people have to live in the real world."

No, I am saying that we open our eyes to reality. End the bias, end the vicious cycle. Choose to be better than our forbears. Choose differently.

"You may have experienced prejudice."

Yes, I have. And racism. The real kind. Not the "they looked at me funny" kind.

"BTW, if Obama had been white it wouldn't have even been a contest. And one milestone can be easily surpassed by another. All it takes is one well-placed bullet."

What does this even mean?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:22 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Its called Free Speech. And? It shocks you? Im sorry that are you so delicate that what people say outside of your "safe zone" upsets you so much."

Things like 'we should kill all the niggers and send the Mexicans back to Mexico ... in pieces ... ha ha ha ha ...' I'm not talking about one or two people, I'm talking about whole towns that believe that and talk that way when they think they have your approval. It may be free-speech, but it's still prejudice - you know, that thing that you think has gone away.

"End the bias, end the vicious cycle."

Great idea. Go for it. Just make sure to change the people (above) who still hold their biases in high regard. Then we can talk.

There's been a lot of talk that America has somehow turned a corner with Obama's election. As if, suddenly, prejudice and hate have been magically erased. They haven't. In fact, I guarantee there are some people right now who are really, truly bent about the fact that a black man got elected. Who are really truly serious about erasing that fact. A well-placed bullet would make that little fact undeniable.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:29 AM

heh

wulf, how do you seriously miss the point so badly?

this whole thread is not about how people are allowed to talk....good god man, how did you turn it into that?

it's about how they do talk. You claim there's no racism. I don't know where the hell you people who claim that live, because I live in the bay SF bay area, and I can assure you there's plenty of it alive and well even in librul california. I hear racist comments every day, about black people, and jews, and mexicans.

the fact that people say racist things on a daily basis should suggest to you that maybe...just maybe your premise about the issue being settled, is off base.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:32 AM

Wulf, if the current set-up has an inherantly racial bias, which the facts suggest, and affirmative action attempts to correct that, then is affirmative action unfair? or is it just an attempt at balancing out an uneven playing field?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:37 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Things like 'we should kill all the niggers and send the Mexicans back to Mexico ... in pieces ... ha ha ha ha ...' I'm not talking about one or two people, I'm talking about whole towns that believe that and talk that way when they think they have your approval. It may be free-speech, but it's still prejudice - you know, that thing that you think has gone away."

So, you have personally spoken to EVERY SINGLE PERSON in these "towns" and they have all said those exact phrases? To the letter?

Do you have proof? That EVERY SINGLE PERSON SAID THIS? Or are you GENERALIZING? Are you being PREJUDICED?

"There's been a lot of talk that America has somehow turned a corner with Obama's election. As if, suddenly, prejudice and hate have been magically erased. They haven't. In fact, I guarantee there are some people right now who are really, truly bent about the fact that a black man got elected. Who are really truly serious about erasing that fact. A well-placed bullet would make that little fact undeniable."

This is exactly what I mean about choosing differently. Some folks LIKE the idea of prejudice, racism, sexism. It is an exscuse for when their lives don't turn out how they would like them to be.

These same folks who preach about ending racism, are the same ones who want it to CONTINUE. For without that psychological safety net, they would have to actually work to prove to themselves that they are worth anything.

True equality, the idea that you are what you make yourself to be, IS SCARY. Without an exscuse to hide behind, we all would have to face ourselves.

But IT IS NECESSARY for our country, our home. This generation must choose differently. It must reject the failed exscuse making of our forbears, and instead EMBRACE TRUE EQUALITY.

The cycle must end. The pendulum must be stopped, AND DESTROYED.

Edit: Do not mistake what I am saying for the idea that racism no longer exists. I am imply saying that we can end it, here and now.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:37 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

So let's assume there IS racism. And not just the redneck kind. Asians? They can be so VERY aware of exactly WHICH Asian country you come from... There is brown on black racism, and vice versa. There is black racism. And that's not even counting sexism, or religion (which fall under the more general category of "prejudice").

Whites in the country still have an advantage over blacks. Rich, white males most of all. So, how do we best eliminate racism specifically, and prejudice in general?

Or do we just concentrate on making sure that EVERYONE can get a decent-paying job if they choose and are able to work?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 9:50 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"So, you have personally spoken to EVERY SINGLE PERSON in these "towns" and they have all said those exact phrases? To the letter?
Do you have proof? That EVERY SINGLE PERSON SAID THIS? Or are you GENERALIZING? Are you being PREJUDICED?"

So, this is your reasoning as to why racism doesn't exist ? Lame. You haven't shown that racism is gone, have you ?

No, I didn't speak to every single person. I did have a chance to hear a good cross-section and watch how others reacted. Old, young, well-dressed and men in dusty jeans. No one seemed unconfortable - it was like they were loosening their pants and letting their belts out a bit.

"Some folks LIKE the idea of prejudice, racism, sexism. It is an exscuse for when their lives don't turn out how they would like them to be.
These same folks who preach about ending racism, are the same ones who want it to CONTINUE."

That sounds pretty - racist. But hey, I know a Hispanic who has a thing for Hitler. (He thinks that if he allies with them they'll consider him one of them. What a tool ...) Which just goes to prove you don't have to be white to be racist.

"Edit: Do not mistake what I am saying for the idea that racism no longer exists. I am imply saying that we can end it, here and now."

Good. Then let's GIVE everybody an equal education - no excuses. Let's PAY everybody equal pay for equal work - no excuses. Let's eliminate the prejudice - and not merely the reaction to it.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:03 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW, if we go with Wulf's plan... make this all about economic need and not skin color... that would help SOME of the problem.

But racism is more than just economic. Most people think of blacks as either threatening or tragic or (at best) stupid and comedic, thanks to the media's relentless mono-dimesional protrayal. Most people think of Hispanics as lazy and ignorant. And just rubbing shoulders with other racial groups doesn't help: we've had riots among school children here who've had to choose between siding with their best friends or their "race".

That's why I think it's important for white and yellow children to see black and hispanic AUTHORITY FIGURES: teachers, principals, doctors, and lawyers, not just sports figures, entertainers and day-laborers. Thats' why boys need to see women scientists and mathematicians.

It all start with how you FEEL when you see a person of another race, or sex, or religion, or sexual orientation. Do you see them as a threat? Angry? (Perhaps guilt drives that reaction?) As lesser beings?

ETA: So by all means: Let's start with equal education, equal pay, equal loan opportunities, equal rental opportunities, equal treatment by the police, and equal job opportunities. But should we stop there?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:10 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Sig,

Of course there is racism. There always has, and there always will be. I hesitate to call it "racism" as it is more along the line of "collectivism".

However, to end such things in our country, or at least, to dial them down so that they no longer matter, you must do several things.

1. This generation must reject the idea that thought/ideas/feelings can be regulated through administrative policy/law. It is ludicrous and Nazi-esque.

Thoughts, ideas, feelings will never be regulated, or controlled. Especially not here.

Nor should they ever be.

2. We MUST level the playing field. In all directions. To do so, people must be made accountable for themselves.

They must also be taught responsibility and self-determination. Remember, you are only guaranteed the right to PURSUE happiness.

You must WORK for that car, a Mercedes is not owed to you.

3. End all quotas, and race based initiatives. Instead help those (ALL OF THOSE) in NEED.

4. Lastly, reject the notion that people (Any people) are less, and NEED a hand up. This is classist and contrary to what we, as Americans, stand for.

In essense, this generation must ChOOSE DIFFERENTLY. It/we must choose to reject the notion that your "race" makes or breaks you. But rather, choose to know, that it is you actions AND your RE-actions which determine your life.

Edit: ASLO, we must realize that stereotypes are EARNED. They don not apply to everyone, of course, but there are those out there who fill them.

We must know our own stereotypes, and, if they are negative, never fulfill them.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:15 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Blink" had some interesting statistics that I haven't followed up on.

In the chapter that has to do with 'priming' -

Roughly 80% of people (including 50% of blacks) make negative unconscious associations with blacks. It shows up in reaction times when they have to make positive associations between word lists. It takes significantly longer for people to make those positive associations with blacks than whites; and a significantly shorter time to make negative associations with blacks than whites. (Similarly with females and words denoting authority, accomplishment, and intellectualism.)

This, according to the author, is an extremely rugged result that has been duplicated many, many times across many different areas of the country and demographics.

It happens b/c society primes people every day with negative associations.

The author says that this reaction time can't be changed by trying harder, by trying to go faster, or by trying to mentally rehearse ahead of time.

But he says it CAN be changed by consciously changing your subconscious priming - by reading books about George Washington Carver or MLK.

But I haven't followed up on his references, let alone his references' references, so I'm not sure how rugged that statement is.

ETA: Society regulates people's feelings all the time. It's the essence and nature of society to do so. Racism is a prime example of that.

***************************************************************

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:23 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
This generation must reject the idea that thought/ideas/feelings can be regulated through administrative policy/law. It is ludicrous and Nazi-esque

Should we stop teaching patriotism in school? Should we eliminate the Pledge of Allegiance, and all references to "god"? Obviously SOME thoughts and feelings are transmitted by policy.

Quote:
We MUST level the playing field. In all directions. To do so, people must be made accountable for themselves. They must also be taught responsibility and self-determination. Remember, you are only guaranteed the right to PURSUE happiness. You must WORK for that car, a Mercedes is not owed to you.

While I agree with you that peeps SHOULD be taught self-responsibility, that entirely contradicts what you just said about not controlling the feelings and thoughts of others through policy. So if the govt ISN'T doing that "teaching" which you feel is necessary... who is??? Also, I think peeps should be taught compassion and logic... but that's another story.

Quote:
End all quotas, and race based initiatives. Instead help those (ALL OF THOSE) in NEED

No argument from me there! But that seems to be contradicted by...

Quote:
Lastly, reject the notion that people (Any people) are less, and NEED a hand up. This is classist and contrary to what we, as Americans, stand for.

Unless perhaps HELP THOSE IN NEED is different from A HAND UP?

However, I'm gonna say that some peeps are NOT equal. Babies, of course, are helpless. Some peeps are brain damaged, some are physically handicapped, and eventually most of us will get old and feeble. So the notion that we can ALL be self-reliant all of the time is a little sweeping.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:37 AM

Wulf,

that's not true that those are the only proponants. There are people who are white and very successful who KNOW that their race helped them. Tom Brokaw said it the other day, that he was given chances he probably didn't deserve, as he put it.

I am not a succesful white man, by any stretch...any stretch, but I know that the opportunity was readily available to me. It was palpable, the road was clear-er than for others. Sadly, when I didn't push for success, I had no nepotism to fall back on and give me numerous legs up, and living in San Ramon now,(a fairly wealthy neighborhood - I'm in an apartment) I know so many kids, real fuckups even who are working good jobs because hteir daddy's got them for them.

Good for them, and hopefully some day they do something with it, and I'm not expecting that that is what we all need. I think I was shown enough of the road through the trees. I think too many people aren't, and blacks are disadvantaged as a group in this regard.

........

personal responsibility is good. Everybody should take responsibility for their actions. Nobody should expect things to just be given to them. They should be instilled with a sense that they are responsible for themselves...but that has to come with real opportunity. That has to come with more than just words about how "you aren't discrimiated against now, so it's all you buddy."

Why? because that abdicates our responsibility. If we care about personal responsibility, then hell, lets take some. We as a society have helped to support a system that has been cruel to black americans, unfair to them, and the results are still with us. we have a personal responsibility, to our country, to help to fix that.

...............

by the way dude, did you really just say some stereotypes are earned, even while you try to tell me that we are all going to treat every body equally? Stereotypes are never for the people exibiting the behavior, Wulf, they are always for the person who comes after, which means that you are saying it is acceptible to judge based upon a preconception...before say...hiring?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:44 AM

Of course, we should help all people in need, just to appreciate Sygm's contribution to the thread,

and simple economic legs up would seem on the surface to help more black families anyway, if they are disproportiately the ones in need, but there is still a problem that is not correctible that way, Sygm. As you suggest, there should be more professional black people working in white schools etc., because people need to see that people are people, but we need more black professionals don't we?

There aren't enough in black communities, or rather there are too many disaffected people that far outnumber them, to be able to make much of a difference even there. What the problem is, and we've already brougth it up, is that even if blacks can afford school, and even if they can get the good grades, all things being equal, quota system in place, they still don't get hired for equal ability, if there is a lighter option.

Which means that quotas seem to be at least the fast-track way of getting to where you are saying we should be, or am I misunderstanding?

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:50 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Why? because that abdicates our responsibility. If we care about personal responsibility, then hell, lets take some. We as a society have helped to support a system that has been cruel to black americans, unfair to them, and the results are still with us. we have a personal responsibility, to our country, to help to fix that."

Where does that end or begin?

I never owned slaves, nor killed Native Americans, or Mexicans, or engaged in oppressing women.

However, I did grow up white in a ghetto. Believe me when I tell you that its not all cutesy like 8 Mile. I have the scars to this day from that time.

So, by your sentiment, who owes ME?

Or did I just pay the "debt of my birth and race"?

See? Its got to stop. The endless cycle of who-owes-who-what and get-you-back and all of it.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Which means that quotas seem to be at least the fast-track way of getting to where you are saying we should be, or am I misunderstanding?

Not quotas.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 10:58 AM

there is absolutely a responsiblity that we should take for white ghettos. You were certainly disadvantaged.

You are less-so in the workforce, than say a person who came out of a black ghetto, but that is an American problem, one we should all appreciate our part in, however small, even if its just the excessive pride that often accompanies "self-made" men, the memory lapse about how our mom made sure we got the right math tutor to get us through the SAT, or our dad got us that summer job at the law firm.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:00 AM

Sygm, could you ellaborate on an alternative? Because quotas certainly have baggage...if you think there's a better way, I'd be willing to abandon my opinion that we need them.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:08 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"there is absolutely a responsiblity that we should take for white ghettos. You were certainly disadvantaged."

You misunderstand. I grew up WHITE, in a BLACK ghetto.

Big difference.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:12 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My parents came from Poland - I was REALLY out of the loop on slavery. Though as a female I was told there was no place for me in medical school. (Ehh - I was also laughed at after I stood in line for hours to sign up for electrician and pipe-fitter apprenticeships.)

But that doesn't mean that as a white person I wasn't automatically given open doors that a black person wouldn't have. And I do recognize the advantages I had - in terms of the high school I went to, the education level of my parents (no thanks to the US school system), and to the college admission process.

Yes, I worked my way through college. But I understood that once I had my degree(s) there would be a job for me in my field.

A black person can make no such assumptions.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:17 AM

heh...Wulf, you are right. It is a big difference.

that childhood had to be rough, but it was a product of no matriculation, of defacto segregation, aside of the few exceptions, and that made race a big factor.

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Friday, November 7, 2008 11:20 AM