Religion - The other dark meat by AnthonyT

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Religion - The other dark meat

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Sunday, November 23, 2008 06:27
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VIEWED: 1467
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Friday, November 21, 2008 10:00 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I have met 3 people in the RW and one one-line whose religion I thought enhanced and informed their being - they were awesome. The rest of the religious people I have met (and there are many in the US) have been narrow-minded, self-congratulatory rationalizers."

Hello,

I read this quote today on another thread. It made me sad.

Even in the midst of superchurches and other visible (and sometimes distasteful) evidence of religion, I have seen something else of late. A popular movement. A kind of anti-religious sentiment swelling in America, and perhaps elsewhere in the world. Some comedians have made fun of religion, and come up with a few jokes to make me laugh. But it seems to be going past that. I've lately seen intelligent and respectable figures deriding those who have faith. Calling anyone who believes in the 'talking snake' a fool. Decrying religion itself as an evil institution of disenfranchisement.

To be sure, the 'far right' and 'hardline conservatives' who frequently institute some questionable policies have been equated with 'religion.' It's come to be that people who are religious are being thought of as foolish, cruel, racist, sexist, homophobic agents of evil.

This makes me sad for two reasons. Most people who believe in God are not the people you see on Televangelist shows. They don't attend superchurches. They don't hate gays, or consider themselves superior beings. They don't think you're going to hell for being different, or believing different. They're just people who believe in something extra. Something beyond the veil. They believe that there's a reason for all this, and a creative mind behind that reason.

I'm one of them. Hardly what hardliners would call a 'model Christian,' but still a believer. Most of all I believe that God doesn't need me to be perfect. He loves me anyway. And I think he loves you, too. All of you.

The Bible, to me, is a confusing, contradictory book. I struggle through it, seeking meaning in various passages, even while recognizing its imperfections.

I watched a movie once, called Quills. It was a fictionalized account of the late years of the Maquis De Sade. There was a scene in that movie that really spoke to me. De Sade was sent to a mental instutution, where he wrote sensual works. He was deprived of writing implements, and was then forced to be creative. He whispered his story to the madman in the adjacent cell, who whispered it on to the next madman, and so on, until the story reached an accomplice who had writing implements. The Maquis said something like, "My tale - filtered through the minds of imbeciles... Perhaps they'll improve it!"

To me, this is an allegory for the Bible. God's story, filtered through centuries of imbeciles, then finally put to paper. The work is in shambles, but I still feel I can pick out bits of moral relevance from the text. I do not think God will stop loving me because of my imperfect understanding and my flawed attempts to practice what I perceive to be his law. I think I will do the best I can with what I have, and let him explain to me in the end where I went wrong.

But the point is this: Do not make religious people a hated class. Do not do to them what has been done to races, ethnicities, and people with alternative lifestyles. Don't label them as stupid or immoral.

They're just people. Just like you.

Just like me.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 21, 2008 10:26 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Amen.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 10:41 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"To be sure, the 'far right' and 'hardline conservatives' who frequently institute some questionable policies have been equated with 'religion.' It's come to be that people who are religious are being thought of as foolish, cruel, racist, sexist, homophobic agents of evil."

I was talking about religious people I KNOW in the real world. Not media-people hard-righters who are caricatures.

I know many people who claim to be religious.

What I find is that often they are
lazy (if I call myself religious it means I'm automatically good and I don't have to do one damn thing more than that),
rationalizing (I'm not hring her b/c she's hot - though less qualified than other candidates and though we both are married to other people - I'm hiring her because she's a 'good person' and religious just like me),
intolerant and prejudiced (he doesn't deserve a position here because he's gay),
greedy (god blesses me with wealth which is really important to me),
and a host of other things I don't have time to list right now.

Not to say that non-religious people aren't like that, but those religious people call themselves righteous, which makes them hypocrites as well.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 10:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Like I said many a time - long as they don't try to ram it down my throat on a bayonet, more power to em....

But the problem is not only that many of em do, it's also that they remain completely accepted by most of their brethren in spite of that, which amounts to a de-facto condoning of those practices.

That being why I view all folks holding certain beliefs from a hostile perspective till they prove themselves.

I think of em in the same fashion I do the crowd that comes to watch the school bully rough someone up for their lunch money, and says not a word, lifts not a finger - while not AS guilty, they're certainly guilty cause their silent inaction condones his behavior, however indirectly.

They need to solve THAT problem to get any respect from me, Anthony.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 21, 2008 11:10 AM

AGENTROUKA

I applaude you for posting this because it's easy to forget that religion, in many people's lives is a positive influence and gives them hope and strength and inspires them to be good to others.

Nearly all the people I know who are religious have never given me reason to feel threatened by their faith, and instead made me glad for them.

I do, however, blame religious people for making it easy to forget this.

Like Frem says, why do we never hear from the religious people who oppose what the more extreme corners express?

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Friday, November 21, 2008 12:09 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

You do hear religious people decry all manner of horribleness in other religious people.

It just may be, that like me, you don't think of them as 'religious people' because they fail to fit the stereotype you've created. Because I am the way I am, people who have known me for months or sometimes years do not know my faith. I usually reserve discussion of it when asked, or when I encounter some bias that I feel compelled to speak against.

You will see me here decrying every injustice I encounter, but you will not see me here punctuating every post with "and I'm a Christian."

I suspect that there are many good and wholesome people surrounding you every day who do in fact enjoy a faith in a divinity. They have no native bias to overcome because they do not wear neon signs or hand out pamphlets. The vast majority of believers are of this stripe. Reasonable people just like you.

It saddens me that your reaction to a person who reveals their religion would be, "Oh, well, now you have to PROVE that you're a good person." Really? NOW I do?

It's not a good bias to have, in my opinion.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 21, 2008 12:30 PM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

You do hear religious people decry all manner of horribleness in other religious people.

It just may be, that like me, you don't think of them as 'religious people' because they fail to fit the stereotype you've created.

Pray tell, what is the stereotype I have created?

I obviously only know of my friends' religious believes when I have had occasion to witness them talk about it, attended their religiously themed wedding or other such indicators. Otherwise I assume nothing.

I'm honestly confused as to what gave you the idea that I think ill of religious people.

Quote:

You will see me here decrying every injustice I encounter, but you will not see me here punctuating every post with "and I'm a Christian."

I don't think it would hurt to voice a religious opinion, as opposed to a neutral one. Because the religious-vs.-unreligious arguments are very visible, but they are naturally quite different from the arguments that people who share a religion would have about it.

Quote:

It saddens me that your reaction to a person who reveals their religion would be, "Oh, well, now you have to PROVE that you're a good person." Really? NOW I do?

It's not a good bias to have, in my opinion.

This isn't my reaction at all, and I do not think that my post implies it.

All I meant, if it wasn't clear, was that I wished that there was a more visible debate among religious people about the things that some religious people claim in the name of their religion.

I think it would matter to speak out as "I am a Christian and I disagree with these extreme views", for example. Just to give an actual, credible counter-weight.

Because right now, the extreme views are the most visible and other believers do little to give the impression that they mind being lumped into the same group.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 12:31 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I have seen something else of late. A popular movement. A kind of anti-religious sentiment swelling in America, and perhaps elsewhere in the world.

Good! Finally!! Destroy organized religion all together, I say.

Quote:

I believe that God doesn't need me to be perfect.

If God's up there, I believe he doesn't need bureaucracies to spread his word (and take money for it).

Quote:

But the point is this: Do not make religious people a hated class.

Don't label them as stupid or immoral.

Immoral is a judgement one must make for one's self, but stupid? Hell yes, most folk I come in contact with on pretty much every level are that way, religious or not.

Quote:

They're just people. Just like you.

Just like me.

Not so much like me, I think. I don't need to get together with hordes of like-minded peeps to reinforce my faith, or make me feel better about the crap I believe. I went to Buddhist temples a few times, & it was a pleasant enough experience, but I'll be damned if I let others tell me what or how to believe, much less PAY for the privilege.

There's an answer here- just believe.

Bookisall

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Friday, November 21, 2008 12:33 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Rouka, I didn't intend to respond to your post in particular, but rather those that asserted a negative bias against religious persons.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 21, 2008 12:37 PM

AGENTROUKA

Oh, well, in that case... carry on as it were.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 2:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Anthony, having been on the receiving end of considerable violence, and even more attempted, by folk of certain faiths has pounded that bias irrevocably home - you have to credit the fact that I am aware of it, and fully admit it, however.

Besides, when a persons witnessed actions show them to be a decent human being, I generally do snap a leash on it pretty quick, as you well know cause our first discussion here involved you keeping cool and polite in spite of me verbally sandblasting you.

Like I said in another thread, just cause I don't care for the belief, don't mean I can't like the people.

I got my reasons, and they're honest ones, it's not something based out of spiritual antagonism, but simply based on the actions of certain beliefs as a whole, and quite secondary to my perception of them as an individual.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, November 21, 2008 2:52 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

I don't have a bias, I have experience. Maybe the Xtian people I come in contact with are particularly pernicious - there may be a strain of thought in these parts that doesn't exist elsewhere. But my experience with religious people - with a few stellar exceptions (mostly RC) - has been dismal. And again, to some extent I find it to be that way b/c their professed morals are so at odds with their actions - which makes them hypocrites in a way that non-religious people wouldn't be.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 3:51 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I disagree about having experience instead of a bias. In fact, most bias is based on some kind of experience. The thing is, we choose what lessons we take away from our experiences. We think about what has happened to us, and we take either reasoned or emotional interpretations of the event into our psyche.

I don't remember if I've mentioned it before, but I attended Horace Mann Middle School for a couple of years after graduating from Elementary school. It was a magnet school for computers, and it was located in the middle of an African American community. The school itself was about 95% African American. About once a month, a 'cracker day' was declared when the students at the school would randomly attack white kids.

That was an experience. It was the first experience I ever had with African Americans, and it was also the most intense experience I ever had with African Americans. And keep in mind that I wasn't targeted by a lone bully or small groups, but that the majority of people at this school proved to be hostile.

Now, we should all agree that I shouldn't walk away from that experience with a bias against African Americans.

But yet, if they were Catholics, I should? Why? Because the bad ones are hypocrites? Obviously. But then weren't the 'bad' African Americans also hypocrites? Weren't they conducting the same kind of abuse leveled against them? So should I have a bias against them, based on two years of regular, intense experience with a large number of people?

The answer, of course, is no. I reasoned the situation, and I came to understand why this was happening to me.

It wasn't because they were African Americans, and it wasn't because I was a very white looking Cuban.

I might get into this more in the future, in a thread that touches on the subject of education. But the simple point here is that you can't tar an entire group with one brush. To do so does represent a bias, and not merely experience. It also happens to be unfair.

Frem, I'm glad you keep an open mind and allow for the potential of goodness...

But it's a shame when the default position has to be, "You suck until you demonstrate otherwise."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 21, 2008 4:00 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

AnthonyT

I have to leave for a meeting but --- at the risk of sounding like a one of those tone-deaf racists --- my best friend is religious. Two stellar members of my family were religious. I prize and praise the religious people I find who seem to hold themselves to the high standards of their ideals. I have very little against religious people per se. In fact, those few are an enlightenment, an example and a hope.

But the others I have no respect or liking for, a position I come to only after getting to know them well and seeing those professions of righteousness clash with their self-serving actions.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 6:57 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

AnthonyT - Which religion are you talking about? There are Muslims and Christians dieing in Iraq, both Shiite and Sunni and American- what's your message for them? How many religions are there?

I have the same issue with your post that I have with most religions: yours is mostly a message of wishful thinking. Think it through further.

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Friday, November 21, 2008 7:27 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think you'll find that I don't care what divinity you worship. You won't earn my ire for it, and I won't judge you.

I also don't care whether you worship no divinity. You won't earn my ire for it, and I won't judge you.

I think you'll also find that a message against discrimination, bias, and pre-judgement isn't wishful thinking. It's the road to the future. A road I hope we're already on.

I just think people need reminding when they stray.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Friday, November 21, 2008 11:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
But it's a shame when the default position has to be, "You suck until you demonstrate otherwise."

That's kinda my default position for everyone, when you think about it.

Remember, I don't ask - it's not like I grill someone about... well, anything at all, when first interacting with them, and if I've already marked em as "good people" and find out later that they profess a belief I'm not too fond of, it's not gonna affect my opinion of em negatively, no.

But when they throw it to me right up front like it makes em something special, it does strike and set a negative tone with me.

Ain't just Christians though, be glad you weren't a fly on the wall last time I had it out with a pair of really intolerant Dianic Wicca, they got nasty and I got all wormtongue on em and started pushing all their buttons, it got kind of ugly, tho it didn't come to blows, thankfully.

Intolerance is intolerance no matter what rationale one dresses it up in, and I damn sure didn't feel like being their victim to appease their *issues* simply cause I was male and standing there.

You think I'm nasty to mainstream beliefs ?
That's positively polite compared to my reaction to racist Astaru...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:33 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I think you'll also find that a message against discrimination, bias, and pre-judgement isn't wishful thinking. It's the road to the future. A road I hope we're already on.

I believe in this message too, and I don't think one needs to be "religious" to do so. I believe in the Golden Rule and the 10 Commandments - all good. I agree with Book.

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 6:42 AM

SERGEANTX

Your religion isn't my business, and I have no interest in judging it, until you make it so. When your religion instructs you to force your idea of the good life on me or mine, when it seeks, as an organized political force, to shape my society and culture, I feel obligated to speak up and comment on it's value. If it seems stupid to me, I'll say so. If you can't hear such commentary without taking it personally, keep your religion to yourself.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 8:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I not only have a problem with Christians, I have a problem with Jews, Hindus, Muslims, animists, Zeusists, Flying Sphaghetti Monsterists, and all form of religion.

Here's a religion:

Nepal 'Buddha Boy' returns to jungle
Quote:

The head of the committee that organises events around Bomjam continues to claim that he survives without food and water. "We have never seen him eat or drink and we believe he is a god in human form," said Bed Bahadur Thing, president of the Buddha Jungle Meditation Conservation and Prosperity Committee.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081122/wl_asia_afp/nepalreligionbuddhism
;_ylt=AgubmCleOQngMh0mq9xjV.Cs0NUE

Here's another

Woman stoned to death for adultery after Somali court ruling
Quote:
MOGADISHU (AFP) — Thousands of people gathered Monday to witness 50 Somali men stone a woman to death after an Islamic court in the southern port of Kismayo found her guilty of adultery, witnesses said.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gDlw7zYhGCUujV64GSv-BEJdMkFg rights group Amnesty International says the victim was a 13-year-old girl who had been raped.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7708169.stm

Here's another

Faith healing
Quote:
Church of the First Born: This group is mainly active in Colorado and Oklahoma. The sect promotes the use of prayer to heal; they do not believe in doctors or medicine.

Billy and Barbara Reed of Clifton CO withheld medical treatment in favor of prayer for their three-day-old son, Billy Ray. He died in 2000-JUL.
On 2000-JUL-17, Ruth Berger-Belebbas of Olathe, CO refused medical treatment as she was about to give birth. The fetus was stillborn.
In early 2001-FEB, Amanda Bates, 13, died from diabetes in Grand Junction, CO. Her parents withheld medical treatment. Her death was ruled a homicide by the Mesa County coroner, Dr. Rob Kurtzman.
www.religioustolerance.org/medical8.htm

The problem that I have with religion is that it is NOT SELF CORRECTING. "God's will" and "You must have faith" are all-ecompassing answers that justify any sort of lunacy. What is the corrective mechanism in religion which brings people back to reality?

Well... none, actually. Religion discourages people from asking questions or testing their assumptions. Events which contravene their religion are a "test of faith".

Also, one does not have to be religious to be ethical. Survey after survey show that atheists behave more ethically than believers.

Like Rue, I've known a few religious people who were just.... awesome. But most peeps use religion as an excuse for being blind.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 8:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BTW, a fair number of people in the USA (approx 40%) believe that humans were created about 10,000 years ago in our current form, so it's not like religious nut-cases are a small minority.

My response to religious peeps is that if I like you my eyes will glaze over when you talk religion; if I have to work with you I'll politely tell you that I'm not religious and walk away; but if I don't like you I'll prolly give it to you with both barrels.

And BTW AnthonyT, I like you.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 9:20 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

And BTW AnthonyT, I like you.

Ya can't NOT like Anthony, he is one severely decent dude.

The praising Chrisisall

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 12:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Well, thank you.

I find most folks here to be good, nice folks. Even 'the usual suspects' are nice people, I think, who just express themselves with more passion than reason. Something the best of us has probably done from time to time.

And I have to say, that graphic is hypnotizing. I can't not stare at it. I feel there should be a techno beat playing, though. ;-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 12:29 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
And I have to say, that graphic is hypnotizing. I can't not stare at it. I feel there should be a techno beat playing, though. ;-)

Tell me about it. I find it repulsive.... yet, oddly....

compelling.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 2:40 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I have the same reaction to this one, accompanied by giggles, and no idea why.

-F

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

On that one, my eye is drawn to the bandaid on that girl's knee.

A psychologist could probably write a paper on that, since they already do so much with inkblots.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Saturday, November 22, 2008 5:55 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I watched a movie once, called Quills. It was a fictionalized account of the late years of the Maquis De Sade. There was a scene in that movie that really spoke to me. De Sade was sent to a mental instutution, where he wrote sensual works. He was deprived of writing implements, and was then forced to be creative. He whispered his story to the madman in the adjacent cell, who whispered it on to the next madman, and so on, until the story reached an accomplice who had writing implements. The Maquis said something like, "My tale - filtered through the minds of imbeciles... Perhaps they'll improve it!"

To me, this is an allegory for the Bible. God's story, filtered through centuries of imbeciles, then finally put to paper. The work is in shambles, but I still feel I can pick out bits of moral relevance from the text.

AS a guy who doesn't believe, exactly, but who attended a Methodist church *E*V*E*R*Y* Sunday for 10 years, trying , and who is currently unattached, but going back over Advent, I like this allegory very much.
The problem is between this POV and that of the folks who believe that the Bible is the absolute inerrant word of God , literally true in every word, and who expect you to live by their interpretstion.

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Sunday, November 23, 2008 2:19 AM

CANTTAKESKY

http://lolgod.blogspot.com/

For those who can have a little sense of humor about God. I especially like the last one about the virgins waiting for Muslim martyrs. Hehe.

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

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Sunday, November 23, 2008 6:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Hey! Those virgins look like my elementary school teachers!!!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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