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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:



Data: The debt of the US cannot be sustained, and another program would only hasten eventual collapse. Additionally, data shows that wealthy citizens in countries with socialized medical programs travel here for treatment rather than stand in line for care at home. In some rare cases, un-wealthy terminal patients have died standing in line waiting.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is not to debate morality or to judge actions, but to establish simple fact as well as available data will permit.


R) The President did not lie concerning WMD.
L) The president lied about WMD.

Available data indicates he intentionally misled the people concerning WMD with the possible hope that some would be found eventually during/after the invasion of Iraq.

R) Bush is a great man & leader.
L) Bush is evil.

Available data indicates that Bush is doing what he truly believes is best for his country in the long run.

R) Obama is dirty.
L) Obama is clean.

Available data indicates that while Obama has had intimate contact with many questionable peeps, this is by no means uncommon, and actually a necessary part of a politician's daily life. No data concerning corrupt acts perped by the President elect himself exists at this point.

R) No such a thing as Global Warming.
L) Global climate change threatens to destroy us.

Available data suggests a pro-active attitude concerning the world's dwindling food supply, as climate change is having severe effects already, however, end-of-the-world scenarios are a bit premature as well as counter-productive to attending to the problem as it exists today.


How are we doing so far? Wanna throw some in? Wanna challenge the ones I put up?

I'm actually lookin' to see where left & right can come to some simple, calm agreement on seperatin' fact from opinion.







The experimental Chrisisall

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Yours seems even more biased.

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For the record I was trying to be neutral. I could add a third statement to bring it back to center, but my inital intent was 2 neutral sentences presented without passion or predjudice.

Guess I missed.

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Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Yours seems even more biased. For the record I was trying to be neutral. I could add a third statement to bring it back to center, but my inital intent was 2 neutral sentences presented without passion or predjudice.

Guess I missed.

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Originally posted by rue:

R) Bush is a great man & leader.
L) Bush is evil.

Available data indicates that Bush either evil or stupid.

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Originally posted by rue:
Well, to start to dabble:

R) The President did not lie concerning WMD.
L) The president lied about WMD.

Available data indicates he intentionally misled the people concerning WMD with the possible hope that some would be found eventually during/after the invasion of Iraq. But historically, the search for WMD wasn't started until after int'l pressure built for Bush to pursue his WMD claims. He may have thought they would be abundant enough that US troops would stumble across them. However, given that the UN inspectors did not find WMDs and were close to concluding their search, it's more likely that he knew there would be none, and was hoping he wouldn't be called on to address the issue.

R) Bush is a great man & leader.
L) Bush is evil.

Available data indicates that Bush either evil or stupid.
A person of reasonable intelligence and average ethics would check to see if the results of his good intentions - 2 wars, curtailing freedoms, disaster response, national economy and other policies - were producing good results over time. Given that the results have not been as expected, a person of reasonable intelligence and average ethics would try to determine what went wrong, and either try to mitigate the problems, or at least not repeat them.
Given that these didn't occur, the choices are that Bush's intentions weren't good, or he is incapable of learning from his mistakes.


R) Obama is dirty.
L) Obama is clean.

Available data indicates that while Obama has had intimate contact with many questionable peeps, this is by no means uncommon, and actually a necessary part of a politician's daily life. No data concerning corrupt acts perped by the President elect himself exists at this point.

R) No such a thing as Global Warming.
L) Global climate change threatens to destroy us.

Available data suggests a pro-active attitude concerning the world's dwindling food supply, as climate change is having severe effects already, however, end-of-the-world scenarios are counter-productive to attending to the problem as it exists today. Available studies indicate that scaring people doesn't create productive attitudes towards finding and implementing solutions.

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by rue:
Hey ChrisIsAll

I added this later, I thought you might be interested in commenting.

R) Socialized medicine is evil
L) Socialized medicine is good


Data shows that wealthy citizens in countries with socialized medical programs sometimes travel here for treatment rather than stand in line for care at home. However, generally, the treatment they are seeking is elective, and they are avoiding wait-times rather than trying to get treatment at all.
There are some countries that have policies in place that limit expensive treatment for patients who are terminally ill. ("How much would you pay for 6 more months of life?")
However, given that a higher standard of care is available through socialized medicine ("France best, U.S. worst in preventable death ranking"), the burden for-profit healthcare puts on the economy and individuals ("Retiree couple needs $225K for medical"), the incentive of for-profit medicine for cutting corners ("Reports Allege Merck Misrepresented Vioxx Research"), the inherent conflict of interest between for-profit medicine and providing care ("Supreme Court case: Do health plans have conflicts of interest?"), the lack of coverage, overall poorer health, higher infant mortality and earlier deaths of US citizens compared to countries with socialized medicine,

data indicates that a capitalistic economic agenda does not fit with health care delivery.


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Originally posted by AURaptor:
There is no data which objectively suggest that Bush intentionally mislead anyone.

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Originally posted by swish:
how about we don't let this thread devolve into a pointless "No he didn't!" "Yes he did!" spat with him?

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Originally posted by whozit:
Hi RUE (pick a fucking side) how ya been?

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Originally posted by swish:

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Originally posted by whozit:
Hi RUE (pick a fucking side) how ya been?

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See, the point of an "unbiased" statement is that you don't pick a side. But the bagel down and think, son.

BTW Chris, I was thinking of doing a similar thing as this thread back before the election, mostly regarding Palin. I was challenging myself to argue both sides with her, just to see if I could handle it. I wanted to start a thread seeing if other folks could manage similar things, but I'm just not online enough to follow through with such a venture.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
swish,

what you and others fail to acknowledge, either by intent or sheer ignorance, is that I always bring evidence to back up a specific claim.

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Originally posted by rue:
ChrisIsAll

The global warming report Rap linked is a political report drafted by US Senate republicans.

Out of curiosity, I checked the list of supposed scientists. Many are TV weathermen, doctors, or scientists in unrelated fields. To me, that attempt to inflate numbers is ethically challenged. And that it was drafted by politicians of one party makes it partisan in the extreme. It look more like a propaganda attempt.

I estimate the number of genuine experts to be 20 - 30.

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Originally posted by rue:
BTW - thinking about global warming per se -
it is a fact that CO2 and methane are a greenhouse gases, and it is a fact that atmospheric CO2 and methane levels have been rising over the decades. It's also a fact that Antarctic ice cores reveal that CO2 and methane levels are at the highest they've been in 800,000 years ("Ice Cores Reveal Fluctuations In Earth's Greenhouse Gases" - "The fundamental conclusion that today's concentrations of these greenhouse gases have no past analogue in the ice-core record remains firm," Brook said in the report. "The remarkably strong correlations of methane and carbon dioxide with temperature reconstructions also stand."). There is also an increase in soot levels (which deposit on snow and ice and cause it to melt, decreasing the earth's albedo).

However, there is an increase in SO2 levels from fuel combustion which decreases the amount of sunlight reaching the earth. SO2 released from China is thought to be a mitigating factor in global warming.

Overall, however, global warming is expected to be the dominant factor. The decrease of sunlight reaching the earth is thought to ultimately reduce the ability of plants to absorb CO2, as well as reduce food production.

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Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
swish,

Of course you won't dance, because dancing would force exposure of fraud on your part.

I understand.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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I'd bet there are more real scientist, in real related fields against man made Global warming than for it.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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I'd bet there are more real scientist, in real related fields against man made Global warming than for it.

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Mmmm?? Really? How much?


---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Originally posted by swish:

***jumps onto dancefloor and shakes ass***

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How are we doing so far? Wanna throw some in? Wanna challenge the ones I put up?

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Objective analysis of partisan arguments & talking points (hopefully)
CHRISISALL

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R) The President did not lie concerning WMD.
L) The president lied about WMD.

Available data indicates he intentionally misled the people concerning WMD with the possible hope that some would be found eventually during/after the invasion of Iraq.

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R) Bush is a great man & leader.
L) Bush is evil.

Available data indicates that Bush is doing what he truly believes is best for his country in the long run.

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R) Obama is dirty.
L) Obama is clean.

Available data indicates that while Obama has had intimate contact with many questionable peeps, this is by no means uncommon, and actually a necessary part of a politician's daily life. No data concerning corrupt acts perped by the President elect himself exists at this point.

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R) No such a thing as Global Warming.
L) Global climate change threatens to destroy us.

Available data suggests a pro-active attitude concerning the world's dwindling food supply, as climate change is having severe effects already, however, end-of-the-world scenarios are a bit premature as well as counter-productive to attending to the problem as it exists today.

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How are we doing so far? Wanna throw some in? Wanna challenge the ones I put up?

I'm actually lookin' to see where left & right can come to some simple, calm agreement on seperatin' fact from opinion.

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BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN
L) A national socialized medical system is needed now to provide all citizens with equal care, and to insure citizens against insurance abuses rendered on a daily basis.

R) A national socialized medical system is economically impossible, could never be implemented effeciently, and will make things worse.


Data: The debt of the US cannot be sustained, and another program would only hasten eventual collapse. Additionally, data shows that wealthy citizens in countries with socialized medical programs travel here for treatment rather than stand in line for care at home. In some rare cases, un-wealthy terminal patients have died standing in line waiting.

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Would everyone please take a break from the political stuff for a moment. I'm trying to make a fan film and need canon help.
Go to my thread in Firefly--Immediate Assistance and answer my canon questions gorramit!

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AURAPTOR
Three point,...four hour,...should do it.

Friday, December 12, 2008 - 13:20

There is no data which objectively suggest that Bush intentionally mislead anyone. In fact, there's every bit of evidence to suggest the exact opposite. ( See 9/11 Commission , '04 and '06 Congressional Hearings on WMD )

CIA Release of NIE, October 2002: We judge that Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions. If left unchecked it probably will have a nuclear weapon within this decade. http://www.factcheck.org/iraq_what_did_congress_know_and_when.html

i wouldn't go as far as to call Bush a GREAT leader. Hell, he's subverting the will of his own party by bailing out the UAW and the BIG 3 Auto makers, simply to save his legacy. Bravo.

Too early to tell about Obama. We elected a complete unknown.

650 Scientist come out against manmade global warming. Somebody better tell AlGore ! http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&Conte
ntRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6

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Rue- Not bad! Fact-based, non-confrontational...I can deal!

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The bias comes in stressing one side aspect of the US health care system as if that defines it entirely. Wealthy foreigners who come here for health care are not having the same experience as the average American, ie they are wealthy and not at the mercy of their HMO.

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SWISH

Hey - I have a novel idea. Since Rap always shows up spouting this same blind madness, how about we don't let this thread devolve into a pointless "No he didn't!" "Yes he did!" spat with him? It seem that every thread I check into here turns into a Rap name-calling argument. It does derail more interesting conversations.

Just a suggestion.

ETA: I'm referring to this: "There is no data which objectively suggest that Bush intentionally mislead anyone." This horse corpse has been beaten folks. Nothing but bone. She ain't gonna run again!

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Originally posted by whozit:
Hi RUE (pick a fucking side) how ya been?

See, the point of an "unbiased" statement is that you don't pick a side. But the bagel down and think, son.

BTW Chris, I was thinking of doing a similar thing as this thread back before the election, mostly regarding Palin. I was challenging myself to argue both sides with her, just to see if I could handle it. I wanted to start a thread seeing if other folks could manage similar things, but I'm just not online enough to follow through with such a venture.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:


I think they sincerely believed in the WMDs. Here's why
a) Rummy had been there to deliver them
b) More importantly, it's a terrible excuse for war. If they were making it up, they would have thought of something better.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is not to debate morality or to judge actions, but to establish simple fact as well as available data will permit.

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Bullshit

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R) The President did not lie concerning WMD.
L) The president lied about WMD.

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Sure... if you live in a vacuum of black and white.

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Available data indicates he intentionally misled the people concerning WMD with the possible hope that some would be found eventually during/after the invasion of Iraq.

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Available data, meaning the media outlets none of us really trust 100%, right?

I do believe that it was known that there were no WMD's and a game of Wag the Dog was played on all of us, but I'm not convinced that Bush even knew about how he was being used, let alone my complete inability to wrap my head around the concept that he masterminded anything of that scale.

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R) Bush is a great man & leader.
L) Bush is evil.

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It's really not a partisan decision unless you let it be....

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Available data indicates that Bush is doing what he truly believes is best for his country in the long run.

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I think that is a subjective analysis of it, but I tend to agree with this. I don't agree with his idea of what is good for the country, but I do believe that he really does have that in mind even though he's been lead so far astray...

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R) Obama is dirty.
L) Obama is clean.

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I have many reasons that I don't trust him, at least anymore than I trust Bush, or McCain, or Big Brother, or Peter Francis Geracie. Nothing that has happend in the last week gives any weight in that decision. I'm still stuck on why the Governer really got called out now. I just don't buy that it was the Republicans that did it to make Obama look bad. We've all seen enough M Knight Shamalamadingdong's movies to know that the evil Republicans exploiting the people with an obvious lie at this point is highly suspect, if not completely trite and unoriginal.

No.... I think Obama will be a martyr here.

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Available data indicates that while Obama has had intimate contact with many questionable peeps, this is by no means uncommon, and actually a necessary part of a politician's daily life. No data concerning corrupt acts perped by the President elect himself exists at this point.

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They're all dirty man. Some people we dig a lot further to prove are dirty though.

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R) No such a thing as Global Warming.
L) Global climate change threatens to destroy us.

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I do hope you're joking now, or just pointing out what "they" want us to think, cause if you really paint it this black and white I'm starting to find this post very condesending.

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Available data suggests a pro-active attitude concerning the world's dwindling food supply, as climate change is having severe effects already, however, end-of-the-world scenarios are a bit premature as well as counter-productive to attending to the problem as it exists today.

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I thought about stuff like that when I was a kid and even remember asking adults questions about what would happen in the future when there is no more room to throw away garbage and what if oil ran out, but they all basically shrugged it off with a "don't worry about it" answer. When I was a kid, I thought that they meant that I was being silly and that would never happen. Now I realize that they were just talking to me like a kid and trying not to think to hard about the question I was asking.

We are messing it up, although I don't need any article or video by the "experts" telling me what is happening based on "theory". I know I throw too much crap away. I know I don't preserve water like I should. I know I don't recycle as thouroughly as I should do.

Bottom line, an end of the world scenario, as scary as it sounds, might be the only catalyst to get everyone on board and fast. How much alternative energy talk have you heard in the last week or two at 1.70 a gallon for gas? Don't we have an Auto bailout to think about now?





I am 6. I am neither Rethug nor Demon. Step outside of the lines.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Abortion: No one supports it, except in the case of life of the mother, so, health children being a burden is the real reason for most abortions.
L: Abortion is a right
R: Abortion is murder

Compromise: Legislation is probably not the answer, the right should discourage the practice by...

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Here's a misfact. Auraptor. I will not argue this misfact, it's a waste of time. You wasted more time composing it.

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Another fact: The US medical system has a rating of zero, meaning that seeking medical care has no statistical advantage over not doing so.
Socialized medicine worldwide has a net negative effect, up to -10% chance of survival. Canada and Sweden are +3% or so, but so are free market systems like Korea.

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Or, we could just suggest that Auraptor attempt to be more objective and self analytical, as we all should.

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1. Let the left define itself and and define the positions of the left, and then let the right do the same for the right. I think that having the left and right define each other has led already to some radical misrepresentation.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:


Here's some data, which doesn't support any of these positions: Statistically, the best healthcare system in the world is Indian Ayurvedic traditional medicine, and the worst is the former soviet union system, according to a recent UN/WHO study.

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Another fact: The US medical system has a rating of zero, meaning that seeking medical care has no statistical advantage over not doing so.
Socialized medicine worldwide has a net negative effect, up to -10% chance of survival. Canada and Sweden are +3% or so, but so are free market systems like Korea.

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Originally posted by swish:


Available data indicates he intentionally misled the people concerning WMD because he believed that the real dangers he perceived in the US's future - increased reliance on the whims of OPEC and economic upheaval due to high oil prices - could be prevented by winning control of Iraq's oil. And if he happened to find WMDs in Iraq along the way - hey, bonus.

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Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
This is not to debate morality or to judge actions, but to establish simple fact as well as available data will permit.

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Bullshit

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SWISH

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Abortion: No one supports it, except in the case of life of the mother, so, health children being a burden is the real reason for most abortions.
L: Abortion is a right
R: Abortion is murder

Compromise: Legislation is probably not the answer, the right should discourage the practice by...

I agree with what you're saying, but would work in one fact: Data shows that abortions will happen whether legal or not.

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Another fact: The US medical system has a rating of zero, meaning that seeking medical care has no statistical advantage over not doing so.
Socialized medicine worldwide has a net negative effect, up to -10% chance of survival. Canada and Sweden are +3% or so, but so are free market systems like Korea.

Interesting. Almost laughable, if it wasn't so terrible. Where'd these numbers come from?

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1. Let the left define itself and and define the positions of the left, and then let the right do the same for the right. I think that having the left and right define each other has led already to some radical misrepresentation.

I disagree. The internet is full of the left defining the left and the right defining the right. The world is full of it, and it goes no where because one doesn't listen to the other. It's much more enlightening to try to walk in the other side's shoes.

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I feel like many of the debates I've lurked through here are stuck in misrepresentations of each side. Seems useful to bring these assumptions to light. Like in debate - you have to be able to argue both sides to truly understand an issue, right?

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