Hey, we want to be part of the hate! by dreamtrove

Maybe the level-headed to regroup elsewhere. Anyone agree with sentiment, PM me.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:58 AM

AGENTROUKA

I started reading that thread and then stopped when I stumbled over the term "diaper head".

Why do people do this and not feel like idiots?

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:35 AM

BYTEMITE

I think the slurs are the only way they know how to express themselves on these subjects. But maybe I shouldn't put words in people's mouths. <_< It could be the arguments just bring out the ugly, I've seen that happen too.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:54 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

It's ignorance.

You can browbeat people who are ignorant of universal humanity, you can shout them down, you can pick up and take your toys and ideas elsewhere,

but none of those things will educate, or will help to wear away that misunderstanding. True, there are those disintersted in bothering, there are those who don't want to see the world differently and are unwilling to,

but this is a pretty good board with a "fairly" civil tone, considering how dynamic the views are of the people who post here,

and it gets new readers on the occasion,and on a very rare occasion it gets some of its posters to give some ground.

Maddeningly, as soon as a new post opens they are somehow posting the same nonsense they already grudgingly disavowed, but it's something.

the site keeps me open-minded. It keeps me aware and wary of the rhetoric that comes from people I agree with. I think twice, maybe three times before posting some ideas because suddenly I'm aware that they don't hold as much water as they seemed to when I was just feeling them. In that way I think it keeps me more intelectually honest.

I can only hope it does the same for many of the people I don't agree with.

but back to racism---- People are dogmatic. America became pretty prejudice after 911, because it was scary, because it was large in scale, because it was people from a foreign land that did it. So...heh, people clung to their guns and religion. They chose a boogie man, and saw a crusade of good versus evil. Exterminating evil, according to this model, is of course good.

That mentality is too wide spread to just pick out bad apples. Its more of a phenomenon or a culture. It has certainly faded over the years, but I don't think the solution is to disassociate. I think the solution is to continue to be a part of their discussions, to continue to poke holes in the veil they have let be placed upon their heads,

and more cheezy metaphors...

There are people who don't already have a hardened mind on the world, some of which probably read this board. So you continue to discuss issues with those you disagree with for them.

Sure, if every post turns into an insult fest we have a problem where no information is being discussed, but I don't see that to be the case most of the time.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 10:56 AM

Quote:
I started reading that thread and then stopped when I stumbled over the term "diaper head".

Why do people do this and not feel like idiots?

Thank your various Gods for the Silent Majority

Okay, I will grant that the fault was mine for not doing the same. I tried to argue sense into these people. It went into high flame when *someone* started belittling the holocaust, in which my father's entire extended family was killed. As I posted, it's very difficult to offend me, not impossible.

Curiously, some of these people can be made to see reason, but only for brief periods. I know that some people have mental issues, it didn't occur to me that those employed by our military did, but it would explain a lot.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:32 AM

Quote:
RIGHTEOUS9
It's ignorance ... but this is a pretty good board ... considering how dynamic the views are

Actually, it would be easy to make a troll list. I've posted on this board for years, and I think that regardless of politics, certain people could be booted.
If it were my board, I would make this temporary. Not booted for a position, but booted for lack of civility. Then they could be allowed to return, if they chose, and be booted again. Like being voted off the island. I never liked the IRC system, even as an op, because I thought it was a dictatorship. I think the majority should find someone out of line, and they should be forbidden to post for a while.

Another issue is over-posters. Certain Users post 3 threads a day. That clogs things up.

Quote:
the site keeps me open-minded. It keeps me aware and wary of the rhetoric that comes from people I agree with. I think twice, maybe three times before posting some ideas because suddenly I'm aware that they don't hold as much water as they seemed to when I was just feeling them. In that way I think it keeps me more intelectually honest.

This is a thought. A lot of people have said I make them think, particularly I got that from the left. Taoism is pretty conservative, I guess religions are, but it's not completely in line with say "christian conservatism" though there are many points in common. My own conduct is out of line with my faith at times because I'm a flawed human and I get emotionally outraged, or decide to engage some debate that is fruitlless.

I can only hope it does the same for many of the people I don't agree with.

Quote:
America became pretty prejudice after 911

I'm not sure I buy this. It fed the feeling, but if you haven't yet, watch the 1997 film "the seige" with denzel washington and tony shalhoub. the movie is downright precient. But it speaks to the growing anti-islamic racism and the connected real fear of islamic terrorism. I personally think that 9-11 was in part an inside job, I have no idea if there were any muslims involved, but certainly there has been islamic terrorism. The most credible islamic terrorism has been against Israel and ironically, Iran, but there's a fair amount in Africa. Russia, like the US, I am suspicious of, as I am of the UK, that some of these events are staged. Now maybe the only staging is someone sees an islamic terrorist plot and decides to let it happen, but some of the stories, in depth, are completely implausible. Internal to the Islamic world, there's a lot of terrorism, I count Iran out as being a different religion, but Afghan-on-afghan terrorism has been an issue for a while, though often with russian or american support.

But, for a reference point, it's been 20 years since the Cure song "Killing an Arab." It's not new.

Quote:
So...heh, people clung to their guns and religion. They chose a boogie man, and saw a crusade of good versus evil. Exterminating evil, according to this model, is of course good.

Yes, this is the most simple model of human manipulation, and one of the big ones that Tao warns you about. If you can define something as good or evil, you can define the other by contrast. It is of course, a false dichotomy, which is the point. Our partisan political system is based on it.

Quote:
That mentality is too wide spread to just pick out bad apples. Its more of a phenomenon or a culture.

There are certain members, not just the one I'm angry at at the moment, but certain members who are constitantly drummers for the cause of panic and hatred. I suppose these people are always there. But temporary suspension would work to remove the behavior from everyone else.

Quote:
I think the solution is to continue to be a part of their discussions, to continue to poke holes in the veil they have let be placed upon their heads,

I don't think that the moles will ever see reason. They're there for propaganda purposes. As are some of the people I think of as basically good guys who have a couple of bad ideas.

Quote:
There are people who don't already have a hardened mind on the world, some of which probably read this board. So you continue to discuss issues with those you disagree with for them.

A waste of time and not my job?

I think that if we are to do this, we need a new forum set of rules. You're encouraging me here to start a new forum. But I might want to try it here. I think the first thing there should be is a 200 word limit per post. No personal attacks. And a limit to new threads per user.

Quote:
Sure, if every post turns into an insult fest we have a problem where no information is being discussed, but I don't see that to be the case most of the time.

There's just a lot of that, and what I see as an increasing amount of just bigotry. The tone of debate needs to be self-moderating if it is to be enlightening. A random surfer to come to this board and read the top topics today, would then report this site to the hate site list. I think it's that close. I've been to out and out Nazi sites like stormfront.org and read the hate, it's not as strong as this. Strongest hate I've ever seen on any site: HillaryIs44.com, second place would be LittleGreenFootballs.com. There are a couple muslim sites that try, but they don't hit the fever pitch of "every other post is about hating some ethnic group." Unfortunately, a couple of the libertarian boards got very high on anti-Mexican hate last year. I would prefer, as I would with our ideals for all forms of governance, that it be self regulating.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Ah, but that's the crown jewels, DT.

They don't even seem to realize that they are in essence, giving you a guided tour (albeit a damn short one!) of the insides of their head, and even conveniently labelling all the gears, buttons and levers for you.

To know what makes them tick is key to manipulating them, and both myself and Piratenews occasionally play on that by yanking their chains to watch them foam at the mouth on "command" for amusement value.

You know they're self-destructive, and here they are handing you the means and ability to encourage it if not fully bring it about, of their own free will, and yet in your own hurt you don't see the potential that is being offered.

Don't take injury, don't hate back, USE what you're learning about them, against them.

Dude, you're never gonna make evil overlordship at this rate...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:56 AM

I see your point, but I don't think they're mindless automatons of a sector to manipulate, I think they are propagandists of the MIC.

Oh, and I won't turn into a giant snake. It never helps.

BTW, email me, off forum, at gmail. There are some things I want to discuss but not on the forum. Items of mutual interest. I've been discussing off forum with John for some time, and also Barb, and occasionally Kathy. There are things not to be posted.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Read through the posts and find people spouting against the racial inferiors, genetic, religious, their own special monkey people in need of extermination.

That would be bad if it really happened, but it didn't except in your own personal delusion. One off color remark and all of a sudden everyone that disagrees with you is a fascist. You're the one that seems to know every racist epithet known to man and repeats them ad nauseum, attributing them to imaginary posts that don't exist except in your own fucked up brain. Most of the posters here have never used the hatefull language you attribute to them in all the time I've been here, but since you've been here it turns up in the majority of your posts. You won't have to worry about me responding to your hate filled posts any longer, it's pointless to argue with someone that is incapable of seeing reality. And yes, there is only one reality jackass.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:13 PM

Ah Kirkules, so kind of you to join us, I knew someone would want to be part of the hate.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 1:43 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I have quit posting, hell I have quit reading most of the threads for the same reason.

Yeah. I'm kinda with ya there. I suppose part of it has to do with being busy with other things, and just general boredom with the same tired cheerleading, but it also seems that there used to be more of an "Independent/Browncoat" spirit in our midst. It'd be nice to get back to that.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 2:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I know there are good people here, but the Israel thread has really brought it out. Check out the actual nazi forums and see how tame they are in their animosity compared to what's posted here. I was genuinely offended by the suggestion that because I don't want to see another race get exterminated that this makes pro-holocaust, esp. as the descendent of holocaust suvivors, or more to the point, non-survivors.

No one suggested exterminating anyone, and no one said anything bad about any holocaust victims, unless you include your parading their suffering and death out as a desperate plea to emotionalism. It’s offensive the way you use the Holocaust as a cheap stunt to trump reasoned debate. As far as extermination, you’re the one who refuses to apart any blame to a terrorist organization targeting Israeli civilians. A terrorist organization that has vowed, in their own words, to take over all of Palestine aggressively:

“There is no solution for the Palestine question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. Palestine is an Islamic land.” -- The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)

Here’s another quote from one your buddies:

“As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.” Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 2:50 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

Here’s another quote from one your buddies:

“As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map.” Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Except that he didn't say it.

Quote:

To quote Ahmadinejad's exact words in Farsi:

"Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad."

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "regime." pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh" is not contained anywhere in his original Farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's president threatened to "wipe Israel off the map." despite never having uttered the words "map." "wipe out" or even "Israel."

The Proof:

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

So if I were to say that the Bush Regime will vanish from the page of time, would that be the same as saying that Bush must be wiped off the map?

I didn't think so.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Except that he didn't say it.

Yes, he did say it. There have been many attempts by people sympathetic to Iran to whitewash his statement by parsing the translation. But in the end, even the most generous translation clearly enunciates the idea of eliminating Israel as a state, or wiping Israel off the map. It is an accurate translation.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:11 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

you're right, I way simplified 911's influence. Prejudice is something that's always been with us, obviously. Maybe America more than alot of european nations(not positive on this though), but 911 certainly stirred up those latent phobias.

I did watch the siege...AND I was going to write a story very similar to it, until it came out and stole my thunder.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:13 PM

RIGHTEOUS9

and finn,

just gotto ask cuz you've made me curious,

what is the basis for you saying that even the most generous translation says what you say it does?

Do you yourself have the ability to translate the words, or have you read from numerous sources and translations(maybe even some sources that don't have a mainstream bias) that informs your statement?

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:20 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Scuse me while I laugh at the moron-monkey for believing a MEMRI translation.

ha. ha. ha.

The very definition of gullibility is not believing facts which conflict with your worldview, while chug-a-lugging whatever wacky kool-aid does regardless of it's validity.

The wonderful edge of folks like that around here is that by their actions, and their idiocy, it allows easy discrediting of their entire position and anyone who holds it, if I didn't know better I'd say they were strawman carriers workin for the other side - but alas, they actually believe this shit, or believe in the agenda behind it, which'd be hi-larious if it weren't so pathetic.

So, let em pratfall all they want, there's no better way to wreck their agendas than to toss out banana peels you KNOW they're gonna step right on cause they're too blind to do anything else.

Seriously, it's almost TOO easy.

Oh, and DT ?
No, and you know why, sorry.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:24 PM

My apologies. Kwicko didn’t even cite his comments. Let me provide the link for you.

Quote:
The inflammatory "wiped off the map" quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source. Iran's Foreign Minister soon attempted to clarify the statement, but the quote had a life of its own. Though the IRNA wording was inaccurate and misleading, the media assumed it was true, and besides, it made great copy.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR200
70120&articleId=4527

According to this site, which as I said has Muslim sympathies, the translation was inaccurate, but it was the translation of the government sponsored Newspaper of Iran. And I’m pretty sure that the official propaganda machine of the Iranian government has a better grasp on what the espoused positions of the Iranian government are then the people at Global Research do. So it’s a little haughty for them to claim that their translation is superior, but that’s just a display of their bias. And in the end, the CGR arrived at a translation that while nuanced to be somewhat muted by Western standards, still conveyed the clear idea of the elimination of Israel as a state.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:33 PM

Quote:
Take a look at the site that Kwicko posted. It comes from Left-wing site with Muslim sympathies called the Center for Global Research.

Actually, it doesn't. So you're 0 for 2 on this one, wrong both times. But keep trying; it amuses me to watch you flail about.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 3:53 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Israel the Nazi State :

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFu
ll&cid=1230733139909

"...I said Israel will attack any boat carrying doctors and medical supplies," Barr wrote on her blog, adding that, "Israel is a NAZI state. The Jewish Soul is being tortured in Israel."

The Emmy-award winning actress, who has courted controversy in the past, also condemned Israel's counter-terror operation against Hamas, asserting that, "The destruction of the Jews in Israel has been assured with this inhuman attack on civilians in Gaza."

In her post, Barr likened Hamas to "street gangs" in the Los Angeles neighborhood of Watts, saying that Israel's military campaign is the "equivalent to Los Angeles attacking and launching war on the people of Watts to kill 'the Bloods' and 'the Crips.'"

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 4:43 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Take a look at the site that Kwicko posted. It comes from Left-wing site with Muslim sympathies called the Center for Global Research.

Actually, it doesn't. So you're 0 for 2 on this one, wrong both times. But keep trying; it amuses me to watch you flail about.

Of course, when you don't provide cites for your quotes, folk are left with googling them. Since such statements are often copied on other sites with no attribution, it's often hard to find the original source.

Is this the one you quoted?
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=5866
It seems to be the original, but it's hard to tell.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:12 PM

Cumhal, you may delete your own words, and put words into the mouth of Ahmadinejad or myself, but you will not get a debate from me. Ever.

As I said, I'm also a farmer with a fifth grade education. There's no reason on earth why a man of the military intelligence should care what I say or think.

Personally, I think you're a moron, and incredibly dishonest, a discredit to your profession, and a disgrace to our nation. But that's just my humble opinion, based on the years of nothing that you have posted.

Do us both a favor. Ignore me, and my threads.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...but you will not get a debate from me. Ever.

Promise?

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:26 PM

Geezer:

Thanks for the Link
"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

That sounds much more like the man. Understand also the context. To Ahmadinejad, there are two pressing issues:

1. He cannot support Israel and hold his job. He's already out on a limb because he is a third party candidate with no real base of support who won an election by a fluke of conincidental corruption scandals on the right and left.

2. He's a life long opponent of Apartheid. He is sincere when he says that the zionist regime is an apartheid regime. He looks forward to a joint jewish-palestinian rule, where there is equal power sharing. He prefers this to a two state solution.

I disagree with this, I prefer a two state solution, because I think the one state would be riddled with internal terrorism. Nonetheless I have great respect for the man. My respect for a man is not based on how much he likes me, or how much he and I agree, but on the convictions of his beliefs the consistency of his strength of character and his ability to act on those beliefs to support what and who he loves and cares about. Few leaders measure up to this standard. Manmohan Singh of India, and Ro of S. Korea are such men, as is Fidel Castro, a man who politicially, I have nothing in common with.

US predient I most admire would be TR. I, unlike many, am fond of Nixon and Carter, they measure up to these standards. Reagan I have a few issues with, and Eisenhower I can say a good number of positive things about, but cannot forgive the nuclear testing. Thomas Jefferson is someone that we should all be able to admire, in spite of the fact that he kept slaves.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:27 PM

Quote:
Promise?

It would be a waste of my time.

Oh, and to everyone else, thank you for the support and comments. All insightful, and helpful. I feel less alone here now.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Promise?

It would be a waste of my time.

Probably. Unless you have something intellectually honest to add.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:51 PM

Quote:
Probably. Unless you have something intellectually honest to add.

Possessing no education, I can assure you that I will never have anything intellectual to add. It would be easy to snark that you will never have anything honest to add, but I believe the cat.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:54 PM

Frem

No, I've forgotten. PM me the reason. It does not make sense to me that we should continue to act in solace, and there are things that I will not post to the board.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 4:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Geezer:

Thanks for the Link
"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

That sounds much more like the man.

Actually, it sounds like Imam Khomeini, who he is quoting.

I'm also not seeing the great difference between "Israel must be wiped off the map." and "...this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, January 5, 2009 5:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer, one implies that the occupying force of a city must no longer be an occupier. The other implies that the entire government must disappear.

Finn, you fail to be sufficiently aware of that age-old conundrum: In order to fight Hitler, must one become fascist? In order to fight genocide, must one become genocidal? At one point, you agreed that your goal was to kill only as many as required to save more lives. But the Israeli ambassador to the UN said: "There is no proportionality. We're sorry for the loss of civilians, BUT..."

Ends and mean. Your ends might be fine, but your means betray them.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 8:54 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

DreamTrove

These are the people I have been arguing against during the the last two years you've been gone. They ARE filled wih hate and prejudice, along with deception.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 9:05 AM

Quote:

I'm also not seeing the great difference between "Israel must be wiped off the map." and "...this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."

Of course you aren't.

As I said earlier, if I say that George W. Bush will go down as a terrible president, and will be largely forgotten by history, that isn't QUITE the same thing as if I said I'd like to see him "wiped from the map", is it? One is saying that the pages of time will little remember a thing or event, and the other is saying we should actively destroy said thing or event. Subtle difference, I know, but I hoped you could figure it out. Guess I overestimated you.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, January 5, 2009 10:57 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Questions? Comments?

Free speech can be a really great thing...until people start saying stuff you don't like.

It can also be noisy.

I think that what you are saying is that you want to end free speech on this board. While that sounds really bad and dramatic, traditionally reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions have not been inconsistant with free speech...so long as you can guarrantee content neutrality.

I note for the record that most of us have been called a troll or worse on this forum, most often when our political opinion is not shared by the other party. I've been hanging around here for years...and I can think of only one person that crosses the line on a regular basis. So if your going to ban someone or set some kind of standards...he's your huckleberry (and we all know who it is).

H

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Monday, January 5, 2009 11:14 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"Not booted for a position, but booted for lack of civility."

I don't see any attempt to infringe on free speech here. Free speech doesn't appear to be the issue.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 11:24 AM

Geezer,

Yes, there is.

One is calling for the obliteration of a nation state, the other is calling for regime change.

While I may disagree with the Iranians on a lot of things, I wouldn't disagree with regime change for Israel, however, I don't think it's the Iranians job to do it, and I think they know this. It it the job of the Israelis.

There was a long discussion a while back about how would you have run the Iraq war. A surprising majority of people on the forum supported regime change in Iraq, but not by the means we did it. Collectively, people seemed to think that the US should have supported groups within Iraq who wanted regime change. If Iran does the same thing in Israel, then I guess it's fair. If they try to do what we did in Iraq, it will not only be wrong, but should they succeed, it will be a disaster. No one is going to accept a regime not of their choosing.

This is why the US lately gets my praise for supporting the Maliki govt. even when that govt. does not support us: Because it is a govt. that the people of Iraq want. Chalabi and Bremer were not a govt. that the people of Iraq wanted, and supporting a continuation of that would have ended badly. A lot of people think Iraq is an irreparable disaster. I disagree. I think it's very close to being a stable nation state. There were points within the war where I strongly disagreed with tactical decisions, but in the end, cooler heads prevail. Let us hope the same for Israel and Iran, as well as Palestine.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 11:34 AM

Quote:

DreamTrove

These are the people I have been arguing against during the the last two years you've been gone. They ARE filled wih hate and prejudice, along with deception.

I pity you.

As for the free speech, it's not an issue of free speech to walk up to a latino on the street and say "sp*c" or "chicano go home." Civility is a matter of etiquette. If someone wants to write an editorial criticizing US immigration policy, they can. If they want to oppose gay marriage in text, or talking amongst people they know, they can. If they show up at the funeral of a soldier and say "god hates f*gs and all marines are gay because of the don't ask don't tell policy so we're glad your son is dead." That's not free speech, it's inciting people to riot.

Next, a message board has never been, any more than an editorial, protected by free speech. If someone were to come here and start posting the names and addresses of jews or muslims and inciting people to take acts of violence against them, I'm sure they would be kicked out. You cannot go into a church and yet "F^&k God!" at the top of your lungs. You can't go into the post office and say anything political. You can't go into a supermarket and say "You're all whores!"

Free speech is to be taken as its intended, the right to state a point of view, not the right to insult and threaten, and on a public forum, there are always rules. Sexy pictures of firefly actors is acceptable. Posting pictures of people having sex with animals would undoubtedly get you banned. So there are already rules, it's just a matter of defining them.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 12:12 PM

Signym,

Good points all. You're wasting your time talking to the propaganda machines, they never intend to admit that the opponent is human, so there's really no point.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Not booted for a position, but booted for lack of civility."

I don't see any attempt to infringe on free speech here. Free speech doesn't appear to be the issue.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Can I be the moderator of civility. Someones got to do it, might as well be me since I'm the most civil unbiased person here.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Signym,

Good points all. You're wasting your time talking to the propaganda machines, they never intend to admit that the opponent is human, so there's really no point.

Yes, apparently in this case the opponent is a crocodile...or a scorpion...or a "diaper-head" (whatever the hell that is)... but definitely not human, because we all know that people with more melanin who believe in different gods CAN'T be human like us!

(Hopefully you'll recognize the obvious blatant sarcasm in this post...)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, January 5, 2009 12:33 PM

SWISH

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Fascism is running high on the board. I probably should have left earlier. I hate to leave on a sour note, but this has become a hate site.

Granted, I'm not around much, but didn't you already start a thread about how you were leaving this board?

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Monday, January 5, 2009 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Fascism is running high on the board. I probably should have left earlier. I hate to leave on a sour note, but this has become a hate site.

Granted, I'm not around much, but didn't you already start a thread about how you were leaving this board?

As the new self appointed moderator of civility, I wonder if you would describe your state of mind when you responded to Dreamtrove. Were you hostile, sarcastic, hateful, or (fill in the blank). In the interest in maintaining civility could everyone just describe their attitude and intended tone before posting. I don't know how I'll fairly administer disciplinary action if I don't know whether or not you intended to insult, offend, flame, or abuse ahead of time. Maybe you could just use the code word Nazi or Fascist in your first line to give me a clue as to your intent.
Thanks for your cooperation,

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Monday, January 5, 2009 1:30 PM

SWISH

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Fascism is running high on the board. I probably should have left earlier. I hate to leave on a sour note, but this has become a hate site.

Granted, I'm not around much, but didn't you already start a thread about how you were leaving this board?

As the new self appointed moderator of civility, I wonder if you would describe your state of mind when you responded to Dreamtrove. Were you hostile, sarcastic, hateful, or (fill in the blank). In the interest in maintaining civility could everyone just describe their attitude and intended tone before posting. I don't know how I'll fairly administer disciplinary action if I don't know whether or not you intended to insult, offend, flame, or abuse ahead of time. Maybe you could just use the code word Nazi or Fascist in your first line to give me a clue as to your intent.
Thanks for your cooperation,

Summary: Bad Person (Not quite Nazi level)
State of mind: Amused
Intention: To mock the schmoe for whom one self-absorbed attention-seeking tantrum wasn't enough.

I will now sit in the corner with the Official RWED Bad Person hat on.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 1:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by swish:
I will now sit in the corner with the Official RWED Bad Person hat on.

Wow, this is the easiest job I've ever had.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 2:07 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I'd rather have free debate than arbitrary civility.

One of the things I *like* about this place is that you HAVE to argue your position, and effectively, instead of running to a friendly mod and silencing the opposition.

95% of "debate" on other boards seems to various factions trying to bait each other into being banned so that the "winners" don't actually have to argue their positions, and it demolishes the entire purpose of said boards in my opinion.

So I accept the lack of civility, even and especially when it's thrown at me, Kirk's pointed out before I got no issue with takin a couple servings of what I dish out, long as the topic at hand is thrashed out in a useful and informative fashion.

I'd rather have an uncivil argument that actually resolves or clarifies something rather than one so bound in PC politeness that I can't even make sense out of the positions, much less what's being argued.

-Frem

*steals the bad person hat and runs around smacking people as the jester-herald of our glorious imperial mistress, TWG*

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Monday, January 5, 2009 2:07 PM

Kwicko

That was sarcasm overdose, but I understand the difficulty of expressing sarcasm online. There should be a convention for it.

Swish,

I've left this board many times over the years. It's like a gravity well. If you orbit it, you might fall in and then it's difficult to leave.

Kirkules,

The moderation of civility was proposed as a democracy, not a dictatorship. This doesn't mean that we should all jump on whozit over the bagel thing, but that if people feel the bagel thing is inapproriate, or in this case, just plain boring, then he should give, unless there's a strong maturpasty-ater contingent arriving.

Secondly, since everything you say is sarcasm, it's hard to see why you're here, ditto for whozit, but I'll ignore that. Just saying that sarcasm has its place, but like anything, when overused, loses any meaning at all.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 2:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I'd rather have free debate than arbitrary civility.

But, Frem they're talking a Dictatorship of the Majority, what could be fairer than that.

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Monday, January 5, 2009 2:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
DreamTrove

These are the people I have been arguing against during the the last two years you've been gone. They ARE filled wih hate and prejudice, along with deception.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

I'd replace deception with delusion

they are true believers

Lets party like its 1939

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Monday, January 5, 2009 4:35 PM