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Originally posted by rue:
I'm sure Geezer will have something to say about this. How upstart start-ups are the lifeblood of capitalism, how they prove that the biggest one doesn't always win. He told us Ben&Jerry's was - different. A beacon of light showing us all the true way of capitalism.

Yep. Apparently so.

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Originally posted by Geezer:

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Originally posted by rue:
I'm sure Geezer will have something to say about this. How upstart start-ups are the lifeblood of capitalism, how they prove that the biggest one doesn't always win. He told us Ben&Jerry's was - different. A beacon of light showing us all the true way of capitalism.

Yep. Apparently so.

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Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint, and then go do something else. If that doesn't happen, you may still have a company that provides you a good living.

But I keep forgetting, making a good living by being innovative or risking all your capital is evil. You shouldn't want to better yourself.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Actualy, it is. The idea is to start a company that's so successful you can sell it for a mint

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Hey Geezer, just so's you don't take that old argument out of context: The argument started over whether capitalism contains an inherent drive towards monopolism. It was Walmart versus the mom & pop, remember?

THANKS for proving my point for me!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.

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Ah, so it wasn't Stalin who was evil, it was the Russian people who didn't stop him. Was Stalin just misunderstood?

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
We have a CHOICE where to shop

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
We have a CHOICE where to shop

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LOL, You're funny, Rip.





The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by rue:
"That's what some people say . . . friends even. "

Hey, if all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you follow them ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:


Oh yeah . . . I forgot the whole "Stalin = Wal-mart" equation. But Stalin wasn't a Capitalist and the majority didn't want to buy what he had to offer. We have a CHOICE where to shop, not so much a government dictatorship which is FORCED upon you. So your point is moot.

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:


Oh yeah . . . I forgot the whole "Stalin = Wal-mart" equation. But Stalin wasn't a Capitalist and the majority didn't want to buy what he had to offer. We have a CHOICE where to shop, not so much a government dictatorship which is FORCED upon you. So your point is moot.

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That's not the equation, I was pointing out the absurdity of blaming everyone but Walmart for Walmarts actions. Sure they wouldn't be around if people didn't shop there, but that doesn't make shoppers responsible for Walmarts executive decisions. If you didn't have a widescreen TV a burglar couldn't steal it from you, so if you're broken into and some twat makes off with your TV, I suppose that means you should be blamed for having a TV that someone wants to steal? Or is personal responsibility for ones actions something rich people (like Walmarts management) to be let off of? Personal responsibility does tend to be something only ever leveled at the bottom rungs of society.

You can't really declare my point moot, I was never trying to draw a comparison between Walmart and Stalin, I was drawing a comparison between your statement that Walmarts decisions are everyone else's fault, and a statement that Stalin's decisions were too. I was highlighting the absurdity of your point, so it's rather not moot.

Regardless, Walmart's policies are to artificially lower prices, driving competitors out of business while using their sheer size to keep afloat in the local market. If you're barely managing to keep afloat yourself, then of course you're going to go to the cheapest outlet. I'd hardly say it's a simple choice, it's more like choosing between a rock and a hard place. Plus Walmart's business plan is centred around removing choice from the American Consumer, which again renders my point (or what you thought was my point at least) a little less moot.

And for the record most people in Russia didn't only want Stalin then, but a fair sizable want him back now. Take from that what you will, but I think it rather helps prove my point.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less. Everybody wants a bargain. That's the way we operate. We all want a bigger bang for our buck. If Wal-mart provides that, then that's where the supermajority of American shoppers will go. So it's not really Wal-mart that's evil, but Americans in general.

I agree with Geezer (big surprise, I guess). The goal of many, many people who start a company is to MAKE money. Anyone who does this is, yes, taking advantage of Capitalism.

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Corporate decisions aside . . .

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Walmart would lose money if people didn't shop there.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
B) You take things WAY too seriously.

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C) Why start with the degrading of other people right away? Calling my point absurd was a little uncalled for. It was simply a point. An opinion. Period. Not leveled at any one person or thing.

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Corporate decisions aside . . . Walmart would lose money if people didn't shop there. Period. People stop going to Wal-mart, profits would go down, they'd have to close stores, etc. People decide not to listen to Stalin, they got a bullet to the head (that's my understanding of it anyway). Hey, you started the comparison, not me.

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I don't know what to make of your comment about people wanting Stalin back. That makes no sense to me. But if it's true, it's true. I have nothing to add to it.

"I think you're burdened with an overabundance of schooling"

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People DO have a choice of where to shop. Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.

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Originally posted by citizen:
People worship Reagan as a demi-god, despite the fact he fulfilled none of his campaign promises and most of what he's credited with had bugger all to do with him.

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Again, thank you for proving my point about capitalism being inherently evil.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
Don't like Wal-mart or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T SHOP THERE! It's as simple as that.

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Don't like Earth or the corporate decisions they make, THEN DON'T LIVE THERE! It's as simple as that.



The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
The "I want the best and I want it NOW." There's no more waiting or saving up to buy stuff. People want to be able to afford to by a flat screen TV now, so they claim (yes me included), right or wrong, that they don't get paid enough. People want their cable/sattelite tv, the new car, Playstation 3.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
And yes, Citizen, I think you're a mite bit too serious for your own good. You picked apart that little joke about politics for goodness sake! I said latin instead of greek! *GASP*

Oh . . . and I thought your equation of Wal-Mart to Stalin was absurd . . . so there

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
The "I want the best and I want it NOW." There's no more waiting or saving up to buy stuff. People want to be able to afford to by a flat screen TV now, so they claim (yes me included), right or wrong, that they don't get paid enough. People want their cable/sattelite tv, the new car, Playstation 3.

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We bought a home smaller than we could "swing", My son has a lowly PS2, my car is from 1999 & still running well, I have a tube TV that looks very nice & is almost flat, and very basic cable because reception of broadcast TV is nearly impossible where we live. Going camping or climbing a mountain or going on a long bike ride is very cheap, healthy & fun.

Being happy has less to do with having the best, and more to do with getting the best out of what you can comfortably manage. Serenity on DVD, some popcorn & I'm having a better time than most peeps on a yacht, I conjure.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
And yes, Citizen, I think you're a mite bit too serious for your own good. You picked apart that little joke about politics for goodness sake! I said latin instead of greek! *GASP*

Oh . . . and I thought your equation of Wal-Mart to Stalin was absurd . . . so there

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I'm astounded by you're ability to read my mind, almost as much as you're ability to get it so astoundingly wrong.

I was reading in the paper today about this dwarf that got pickpocketed. How could anyone stoop so low?

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

Again. . . you're proving my point . . . I win LOL. Hahaha. Joke. Kidding, Whatever else it will take to let you know I'm saying things in jest here. Holy cow . . .

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

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Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less.

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

Then you, my friend, are living a happy life!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'd be way happier if they'd release a decent transfer of Outland to DVD, but whatca gonna do?

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Originally posted by citizen:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'd be way happier if they'd release a decent transfer of Outland to DVD, but whatca gonna do?

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We've got one, it's region 2 so you can't watch it, ahh, ahhh, oohh, region twoo.
http://www.play.com/DVD/DVD/4-/1877/Outland/Product.html

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Originally posted by Storymark:
It's really not that hard to convert a region 2 disk to region 1 or region free.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
On the disk?

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Originally posted by RIPWash:
I win LOL. Hahaha.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yours is an evil laugh.

MU HU HU HA HA HA HA!

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:
It's really not that hard to convert a region 2 disk to region 1 or region free.

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On the disk?


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

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Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less.

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But it is their fault that small businesses get driven out of town by unfair practices.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Are you sure you're not Geezer's sock-puppet?

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by RIPWash:

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Ah yes . . . the "Big, Evil Wal-Mart" routine. It's not their fault that Americans want to buy things for less.

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But it is their fault that small businesses get driven out of town by unfair practices.



"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Indeed.

Rip, you should look into a little book called "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)" by David Cay Johnston. He lays out a pretty good case against the megaretailers, including Wal Mart and others, and illustrates with FACTS how they've gamed the system. In many places, they demand - and receive - multi-year abatements of property taxes. That's normal enough, and while not ideal, it's done in many places in order to lure in the "big box" stores that tend to anchor most shopping centers.

But what you likely DON'T know is that, in many, many instances, these megaretailers are also allowed to keep the sales taxes they collect on the goods they sell. That's a huge part of why they can sell so cheaply; it's not all economies of scale, you see, or that they're just so much better or more efficient at doing business. They've got an unfair competitive advantage - if they can COLLECT the sales tax (they charge you that tax, remember; look at your receipt to confirm that) and not PAY IT to the city, county, or state, then they've automatically got a 5-10% "cushion" whereby they can undercut other retailers who are forced to pay their taxes. And these, like property tax abatements, are generally multi-year deals. In other words, that great "boon to the tax base" that Wal Mart is supposed to bring to the area is paying neither property NOR sales taxes for several years.

Now, combine THAT with the economies of scale, and you have a retailer that is already able to undersell its local competitors. With the strength and size of the Wal Mart corporation behind it, though, a new store is also able to price items BELOW what anyone else can even buy them for at wholesale - so there is simply no way to compete, unless you're shopping other stores out of the goodness of your heart. And not many of us practice altruistic shopping, unfortunately...

Just something to ponder... (Hey, that's getting to be my tag line!)

Edited To Add: I've nothing against fair competition; I just don't like unfair competition, especially when it's shoved down our throats and sold to us as "fair".

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...



The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Indeed.

Rip, you should look into a little book called "Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill)" by David Cay Johnston. He lays out a pretty good case against the megaretailers, including Wal Mart and others, and illustrates with FACTS how they've gamed the system. In many places, they demand - and receive - multi-year abatements of property taxes. That's normal enough, and while not ideal, it's done in many places in order to lure in the "big box" stores that tend to anchor most shopping centers.

But what you likely DON'T know is that, in many, many instances, these megaretailers are also allowed to keep the sales taxes they collect on the goods they sell. That's a huge part of why they can sell so cheaply; it's not all economies of scale, you see, or that they're just so much better or more efficient at doing business. They've got an unfair competitive advantage ...

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The real problem is the attitude that causes this crap to be so commonplace to begin with: namely the notion that it's the responsibility of government to foster economic growth and supply citizens with "jobs". Until we can get past that presumption it will be hard to convince people how insidious this sort of preferential treatment really is.

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Signy today, Rue tomorrow

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Maybe if capitalism did a better job at fostering economic growth and providing jobs, people wouldn't feel the need for another avenue. But it can't and it never will, because the whole point of capitalism is to reduce labor costs.

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Maybe. Anyway, it's still a really bad idea to have government selling it's services to the highest bidder, don't ya think?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
And it seems the way power works in human society is that power coalesces, and different kinds of power glom onto eachother. The FF had it right in that they tried to create an internal balance of powers within government, but (1) they didn't go far enough and (2) they didn't realize that power distributed among many (eg Congress) will inevitably bow to power wielded by a few (Executive Branch). If I were to "design" a society, the various forms of power would be divorced from each other as much as possible.

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Has anyone here even heard of a national rep pursuing such legislation?

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Originally posted by SignyM:
... my understanding is that the current interpretation of the constitution keeps the Federal government completely out of the loop of state and local authorities raising money (which is why state and local taxes and bonds are Federal-tax free.)

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