TEA party protesters and what we really want. by SignyM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Jongsstraw, I feel that we are talking at cross-purposes here. Either I'm missing your point or you're missing mine. WHAT IF everything that we ever wanted COULD be produced by a mere 20 hours of work per week, and we could all get along just fine on that? What is the PURPOSE of creating system system where "hard work" is rewarded by "success", if "hard work" isn't even necessary?

Sarge- sorry, not ignoring you. Your point is well-taken, but too complex to get into right now.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw, I feel that we are talking at cross-purposes here. Either I'm missing your point or you're missing mine. WHAT IF everything that we ever wanted COULD be produced by a mere 20 hours of work per week, and we could all get along just fine on that? What is the PURPOSE of creating system system where "hard work" is rewarded by "success", if "hard work" isn't even necessary?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I cannot imagine any scenario where hard work would not be necessary. Hey I'd LOVE to work only 20 hours a week believe me, but then why would my employer pay me what I get now for working less than half the time I put in now. If we're talking just theory here, you give me a system that I can retain my current income with only 20 hrs/week and I will sign up with bells on.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:30 AM

SergeantX: Hee hee! I got that! Yeah, no worries, I know my anarchy/tribal ideas are kind of soft on the actual number crunching economics.

I don't think anything's wrong with live and let live. Although, just how much of a disconnect are we talking about encouraging here? Hermits do just fine, but not everyone's a hermit.

It's easy to disassociate the human factor from economics, but I'm not so sure it should be done. The people who work work work, all the time, just gunning for profits and success... That seems really empty to me. I know it sounds weird and maybe contradictory for me to say that, considering what I've said previously in the thread, but remember I consider myself a special circumstance.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:40 AM

*blinks, stares at Byte*

How that got past me I got no idea, I been busy as of late though.

I too favor moving to an extended family/clan/tribe social structure, historically it's really worked quite well overall - and happen to be about as obvious an anarchist as you'll find, just that my way of gettin there doesn't involve carnage and destruction, is all.

-F

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:41 AM

What I think Jongs is trying to get across is that hard work in an attempt to acheive a certain result is what makes a success. He brought up Oprah, Tiger, etc. as an example because they worked hard to become what they are today. Tiger practiced and practiced to become one of the best golfers of our time. If he just went out a couple times a week, didn't try to improve his swing, his short game, etc, then he would not have become successful. Doctors have to "work hard" by studying and striving to become very good at what they do because the masses depend on them to do their jobs correctly. If these doctors did NOT "work hard" they wouldn't even pass the exams. If Thomas Edison (and other inventors) didn't "work hard" and gave up after the first 10 tries at creating the light bulb, where would that leave us today? Someone else may have discovered it? Possibly, but not without hard work and determination.

So by working hard to try and make the world a better place, THAT'S where industry and improvement comes from. If NO ONE worked hard or tried to maked things easier or better, then nothing would ever really be accomplished. We might as well be living on Miranda.

Now, in terms of what you are trying to say in terms of physical hard work. Yes, that would be ideal. For everybody to only work a 20 hour week and have more time for themselves and their families, to read, do hobbies, etc. BUT, that would mean that everyone would only be making a certain amount of money per day/week/year. And that's where the whole economic system would possibly deteriorate. There would be more people working (0% unemployement) but overall everyone would be making less money. Not to mention not every job pays the same rate to begin with. So, for the perfect "everyone works, everyone works less, everyone is happy" wouldn't really work either. A burger flipper, working the new full-time hours of 20 hrs a week, wouldn't make the same as a computer programmer and if he WERE that would would be one dang expensive hamburger.

Somewhere it was mentioned that technology has made it possible for us to do less work and that is completely true, but it is also completely true (as also mentioned) that groups such as the UAW would not allow the US car companies to modernize to the extent they intended to originally because of the amount of people it would have put out of work. It was marginally allowed by the unions later with the added implementation of the jobs bank which payed thousands of people to sit around and do nothing. Add to that, the unions wanted more money for less work to the point where it got ridiculous.

What you're thinking of, possibly, is the "pie in the sky" vision created by Gene Rodenberry. After Warp technology was created and we're contacted by an alien race, we all lay down our weapons and become a relatively peaceful race. Money is abolished, we all work together for the betterment of all mankind, etc. How the whole money thing would ever actually work, I have no idea. I think it wouldn't work in a monetary system at all. The economics just wouldn't work out and SOMEONE would be making a ton of money and several others making very, very little.

I remember hearing about the first US settlement Jamestown (and I admit this may be a myth). They tried a system where everyone worked the fields and shared in the overall harvest. Well, the problem with that was that many people STOPPED contributing to the labor and left the work to others, but still expected to get a char of the harvest. Was that fair? Of course not. So the governor had to rework the laws so that every man worked their own field for their own benefit and was able to share in the bounty if they cared to and for a profit if they saw fit. If anyone can shed any light on that, I'd appreciate it. I can't find anything right away.

To answer your question about what I want . . . the government to be held accountable in terms of what they actually do with our money. I want it to become fiscally responsible, I want term limits set on Representatives and Senators and I think it would be a good idea for them to actually have an actual JOB on top of their legislative duties so they can really and truly keep in touch with the people of this country. If they expect US to make sacrifices and cut backs, I expect the same from THEM (a lot more than $100 million, I can tell you that right now). I want THEM to take ownership and responsibility for their actions and decisions just like WE are (and that goes for every stinkin' administration for the past five decades). I want a tax system to be fair and understandable by ALL (Flat tax or fair tax). If the government would actually do what they claim they want US to do, then we'd all be in a LOT better shape.

And I also want . . . oh yeah . . . more Firefly like Kwicko said

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:14 AM

Well heck yeah, Frem! I figure anarchy is just going to be the natural progression of events, no need for any violent overthrow at all. Eventually the damn fascists are going to take themselves out, because all their goals are counter-productive for human life.

In fact, I'm praying there won't be a violent coup, because they always tend to be radical in the "restore the original government to it's pure form" sense of the word. Radical: latin, derived from "root."

And seeing a government reinstalled that I think is prone to inevitably decline into decay and corruption, prompting ANOTHER overthrow... That runs counter to everything I hope for for the human race. See, I'd kind of actually like to see all the cyclical class-struggle and bloodshed STOP.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
If we're talking just theory here, you give me a system that I can retain my current income with only 20 hrs/week and I will sign up with bells on.

You sure about that? There would be tradeoffs, yanno.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:29 AM

I don't know about Jamestown: actually what I heard was that on ocassion they were a little too stubborn to learn from their native american neighbors, and a lot of them died the first year because they drank bloody salt water instead of moving up the estuary to where the water is fresh. Nor did they anticipate any problems when the Iroquois migrated inland in preparation for hurricane season...

BUT! We do have a myth just like that in Utah! The Mormon Church (which I'm NOT a part of) says that when Brigham Young first brought the pioneers to where they founded Salt Lake City, he tried some sort of shared produce from the fields communal project... Which they say failed for some reason. But it's obviously a myth, and a politicized anti-socialism morality message from conservatives that dominate the state, because the Mormon church STILL uses the silos where it collects grains to distribute to the less fortunate. Really, they're probably the most socialistic organization in the entire United States, and that INCLUDES the socialist parties.

So I'd suspect, RipWASH, is that what you're hearing is a similar myth.

And I agree with you on most everything there, in that Capitalism certainly wouldn't work without people working at least 8 hours. And even in other systems, like the one I advocate, people kind of need to work so they have something to do, progress to make, ideas to develop.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
If we're talking just theory here, you give me a system that I can retain my current income with only 20 hrs/week and I will sign up with bells on.
You sure about that? There would be tradeoffs, yanno.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Jeeesh Signy, I give you honest answers to your questions, and then you keep upping the ante. Hey, we've had the better part of a day here engaged in a civil manner. Let's call it a day while we're ahead.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
What you're thinking of, possibly, is the "pie in the sky" vision created by Gene Rodenberry. After Warp technology was created and we're contacted by an alien race, we all lay down our weapons and become a relatively peaceful race. Money is abolished, we all work together for the betterment of all mankind, etc.

Face it, if we all had a replicator and a holodeck, we wouldn't need much else.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:46 AM

What a scary thought.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:26 AM

Quote:
And seeing a government reinstalled that I think is prone to inevitably decline into decay and corruption, prompting ANOTHER overthrow... That runs counter to everything I hope for for the human race. See, I'd kind of actually like to see all the cyclical class-struggle and bloodshed STOP.

Ayep.

The reason I liken it to a child leaving the home of an abusive parent and striking out on their own is because it really is the same dynamic, just writ on a national scale.

And the sooner we learn this, the sooner we accept this - the sooner we will grow up as a species, and eventually look back on this in the same mildly derisive tone we do the dark ages.

My current focus is on elevating our children to the same level of personhood that women now enjoy, because given the evidence, how they were once considered subhuman property (and sadly in some places still are*) that DID change, and yet children are still considered subhuman critters about on the level of housepets ?

Nope, gotta fix that, before we step forward, cause in that lie the seeds of carnage, and we'd best stop planting them as soon as possible instead of trying to weed the garden from the other end, or else it's pointless.

-Frem

*That being why my support of RAWA is so wholehearted despite my personal opinion they don't play hardball enough.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Jeeesh Signy, I give you honest answers to your questions, and then you keep upping the ante. Hey, we've had the better part of a day here engaged in a civil manner. Let's call it a day while we're ahead.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Well, I appreciate your honest answers. I really do!

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:07 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay, to do some pencil-whipping about how much work is REALLY required: (I used the latest available figures- from 2006 to 2009.)

There are roughly 305 million people in the USA. About 28% (84 million) are under 20. About 13% (38 million) are over 65. According to ITTATC 19 million working age adults are disabled. That leaves approximately 162 million employable adults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
www.ittatc.org/technical/litreview/e.php

Out of those, approximately 140 million are employed at an average of 33 hours per week.

www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

If we were to take those hours and spread them across the entire work - able population, that comes out to an average work-week of about 28 hours. (You may get slightly different numbers because the ones I posted are rounded.)

Now, as far as lifestyle is concerned, the per capita income of the United States... literally, the total income of the United States averaged over every man, woman, and child... is $36,700.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104652.html

If we take that per-capita income and distribute it over working AND RETIRED adults, that comes out to an average of $67,300 dollars per year for a 28-hour work-week OR as a retirement income. Clearly, there is more than enough money to go around, and the work that's currently being done isn't as "hard" as the work that we currently require.

The greatest discrepancy is in the distribution of income. Roughly 50% of the total income goes to 10% of the population.
www.econ.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-UStopincomes-2006prel.pdf
However, it is doubtful that this 10% actually does 50% of the total work! And almost 25% of the total income in the USA goes to the top 1%! WHAT does this 1% do that "earns" them a quarter of the total wealth? (Over $390,000 per year per person) These are hedge-fund managers, bank presidents, CEOs, CFOs... people who work WITH MONEY every day. The top 400 taxpayers made approximately 60% through capital gains.

So, if you want a system that rewards "hard work"... we appear not to have it. At least, not for the very wealthy.
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
My answer to your question will likely seem old-fashioned to you, but here goes...If you want to succeed in business, work harder and smarter than everyone around you. Come in early, leave late. Be loyal, honest, and committed. Put things in the perspective that it's your company and your money. Does all this guarantee that you will advance in a company? No, but you won't know until you try. If your extra efforts are not recognized or appreciated, you can stay on with pride that you've done your best, or you can consider moving on. Honestly, I see many young people apply and start working where I'm employed. Some have that special quality a company is looking for and demonstrate it almost immediately. Others seem to have either an attitude problem, or un-realisitc expectations of what work is supposed to be.

I worked through a temp agency for a while some years back, and they sent me on a warehouse job with 20 others in my group. I jumped right in, worked hard, and had others whom I'd started with telling me to slow down and make it last. I told them that I viewed this as akin to an NFL tryout - you give 'em everything you've got, leave it all out there, and at the end of the run (it was seasonal work), maybe, MAYBE one of us would get an offer for a permanent position.

And I was right. I was the last seasonal employee to be let go, and a couple months later they called me to offer me a permanent position. I'd already accepted a better-paying gig at the time, but I remain friends with my boss from that job, and he gave me an outstanding reference when I was interviewing for my current job.

I had a boss one time who told me I should slow down my work and stretch it out to get more hours. He also told me I shouldn't try to show the other printers (it was a print shop) all my tricks, but should hold some knowledge back to make myself more valuable. I told him I could teach them every single thing I knew about printing and I'd still be safe in my job, because everything I taught them I had to learn on my own, and I had a twenty year head start.

By the way, within a year I had that boss's job, and he was out on his ass for sandbagging the overtime.

So yeah, I know a li'l' bit about hard work. Been working pretty much non-stop for almost 35 years, since I was 13. If I'm lucky, I'll be working 'til the day I die.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:33 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just wait till you get to be MY age, son. I remember saying the same thing when I was your age. After hearing it several thousand times and running significantly short-staffed for four years with all kinds of extra "emergency" projects I finally got fed up with the whole "do more with less" mantra...

Fuck 'em. It's an artificial demand. It's an artificial shortage of jobs

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 2:11 AM

So basically, what you're saying in your scenario is that you think it's fair to pay a burger-flipper at McDonalds with no education the same as a doctor with 8+ years of education doing research to cure cancer which is a base pay of $67K+ a year? How does that make sense? If everyone knew they would make that amount of money no matter what they did, then where would the incentive be to do MORE and make the world a better place? Sure, medical expenses would go down, but the cost of a burger at McDonalds would go WAY UP!!! That means you're willing to pay EVERYONE who works at a fast food joint approximately $46.22/hour for a 28 hour work week. The mantra would be "Why should I do any more work than the other guy when he's just going to end up making the same salary as me anyway?"

You may as well take it to the Star Trek Extreme and say why pay anyone anything at all? Let our efforts and contributions be enough to pay our way through society and all of our needs. Under that system we will ALL work hard for the betterment of mankind.

. . . . .

Yeah . . . . right.

I'm sorry if that comes across as mean spirited. Just meant it as sarcastic. I just don't see how that would work. As Utopian as it may sound, I just don't think the economics of it would work favorably in the long run.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, April 24, 2009 2:28 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Are YOU saying that it's fair to pay a health insurance executives- whose sole function, it seems, is to protect his fat paycheck and rip everyone off- twenty TIMES more than any doctor, who is actually in the business of saving lives? Thats it "fair" that these administrators suck 30% out of every dollar YOU pay for health insurance?

For what?

I'm not advocating universal flat salary. Hell, no! That would be as unfair as a FLAT TAX, wouldn't it?

But CLEARLY our compensation system is flawed. It doesn't reward hard work, advanced education, or brilliant insight. Its skewed to favor the uber-wealthy, who do little of anything except screw us over and hang like leeches on the carotid arteries of commerce.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 2:57 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Look, I'm just trying to bring some clarity to our thinking.

We peons... and yes, we're peons here... simply CANNOT imagine the wealth and power above our heads. There are things we take as so fundamental we never think about - much less question: Unemployment. Substandard to marginal wages. Insecurity. Lack of options and real power in our lives. "Hard work."

We think we're somehow privileged that we get to scramble at the bottom of the barrel against each other, the Chinese, the Vietnamese... whoever is willing to work for less than we are. And we defend it on the basis that it's "fair" because "hard work" is necessary and should be rewarded. Meanwhile, the people who REALLY control the system... and trust me, its not you or me!... apply no such standards to themselves. They have no problems with lining their pockets because they can. They vote themselves fat paychecks, juicy bonuses, and hundred-million-dollar stock options because their buddies... who sit on the same interlocking Boards and play golf at the same exclusive clubs... will be depending on them to return the favor. They pit us against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely!

If YOU think we have a system that rewards hard work, you really haven't been looking. When the top 1% rake in 25% of the ENTIRE compensation of the United States... something is seriously askew because clearly these people are not putting in 25% of the work! So, to get back to unemployment for a second, here's a question for you. I dare you to answer but I'll bet you can't: In a world of desperate need, where people starve to death due to lack of food, or shit to death due to lack of clean water... where billions go without education or health care or decent housing. where the entire planet needs rehabilitation. And in OUR nation where drug-dealing is sometimes the best option and people are fundamentally insecure about their future.... Why do we have unemployment?

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 3:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So yeah, I know a li'l' bit about hard work. Been working pretty much non-stop for almost 35 years, since I was 13.

That explains why you're always grumpy and pissed. You're a tired old man who needs a vacation.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 4:00 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Anyway, Sarge, part of my answer to your statement is in my previous post.

There is nothing "voluntary" about capitalism. You think that just because you're free to roam your prison cell that you're free. You simply aren't looking past your own boundaries. But any time you work for someone or buy something made under a capitalist system you automatically pay a 30% "capitalism tax".

So, good luck with freedom and all that.

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They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 4:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not advocating universal flat salary. Hell, no! That would be as unfair as a FLAT TAX, wouldn't it? But CLEARLY our compensation system is flawed. It doesn't reward hard work, advanced education, or brilliant insight. Its skewed to favor the uber-wealthy, who do little of anything except screw us over and hang like leeches on the carotid arteries of commerce.

You may not advocate it, but you were the one who proposed it in the thread. Thus my response.

Many of the systems of anything are extremely flawed because of the human condition. Humans are selfish and greedy by their very nature. The majority will try to get as MUCH as we can for as LITTLE as possible. Exceptions, yes, of course there are. So we can all agree that capitalism is flawed and socialism is flawed - and either side will say one is more so than the other. The US government is clearly flawed (too big and self-righteous for it's own good on BOTH sides of the aisle). The economy is flawed. Unions are flawed (Needed at one point, but not so much anymore). Our health care system is flawed (I think insurance companies should be dissolved completely, IMHO). Social Security is flawed (and when one side wants to fix it the other side cries foul). Why? Because they all depend on a collective of honest, well-meaning people to make sure everything is done properly. Over time, the HUMAN influence will taint each and every system we can ever imagine. It would take a great deal of sacrifice on so many levels to fix everything in our day and age that it seems impossible and there would be so many roadblocks . . . don't even get me started.

So you ask a question that you claim has no answer then dare us to answer it? Hmmmm . . . interesting

I will say this, though. The uber-wealthy got so because of "hard work" and determination at some point in their family ancestry. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, were smart cookies. They and their partners developed something and marketed it and now everyone has what they created and seemingly can't live without it. So people pay a LOT of money for that stuff. These guys now have more than enough money to last several lifetimes. They have every right in my opinion to give it to their kids, who will then give it to their kids, etc. So yes, THOSE descendants will not have to work hard because of the innovation of their ancestors. Like the Kennedy's, the Rockefellers, etc.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, April 24, 2009 4:34 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Actually, I wasn't advocating a flat income, I was just providing a pencil-whipping estimate of the average labor-hours are going into keeping this economy going, and the average compensation. i DO have a favored system which is neither socialism nor capitalism, but I think before we even start banging systems against each other we should come to some sort of realization as to what is possible and clarity about what we really want. Because there will always be tradeoffs.

Quote:
So you ask a question that you claim has no answer then dare us to answer it?

I didn't say it had no answer, I said (please don't take this badly) that YOU probably can't answer it.

Quote:
They and their partners developed something and marketed it

Gates and his partners viciously squashed competitors through illegal practices to build a monopoly, and got away with it because they partnered with the NSA to build back doors into their software. This is once again a defense of a system you clearly don't understand.

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They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 5:41 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

All of the good ideas came from Allen, including the idea to get into the software business at all. It was Allen who convinced Gates to take on the job with Altair. Nearly all of the code was written by Allen and others. BTW, the original idea was that Gates and Allen would split 60/40 (though why Allen was supposed to only get 40% is a mystery to me. As the person with all the long-term technical and business insights, he should have been in line for 80% or more.) Somewhere along the line Gates screwed his 'friend' out of another 10%, reworking the agreement they had without telling Allen. And Gates - in his pronouncements and vision for the future - has always been a buffoon and secret embarrassment to his wanna-be fans.

The reason why Gates is so rich is b/c he's a bastard who would do ANYTHING to ANYBODY for money, no matter how unethical or illegal.

And b/c we have a system that often rewards the greediest and least ethical among us.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 6:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
So you ask a question that you claim has no answer then dare us to answer it?
I didn't say it had no answer, I said (please don't take this badly) that YOU probably can't answer it.
Quote:
They and their partners developed something and marketed it
Gates and his partners viciously squashed competitors through illegal practices to build a monopoly, and got away with it because they partnered with the NSA to build back doors into their software. This is once again a defense of a system you clearly don't understand.

How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly? Hmmmm... I guess I must be too stupid to understand you're line of thinking then. You propose a flat income to avoid hard work then call me an idiot for not understanding what you're proposing. And I was civil the whole time, too. I know you didn't flat out call me a moron, but it's certainly implied.

I brought up Gates AND Jobs (admittedly not the BEST examples) to imply that they and their ilk did indeed both come up with a type of computer system that the masses ended up wanting en masse. Right or wrong, their practices got them extremely rich (and yes, I do understand that they were downright bastards at the same time and it wasn't meant as me putting them on some lofty pedestal). But what I meant was that these guys, through their actions which were probably very similar to the Rockefellers, Kennedy's and the like (both extremely wealthy AND Democrats mind you). They were probably downright bastards also to garner their success also and THEIR children and grandchildren are doing quite well and hardly contributing to society at all.

I may not understand the system completely, but I dare say you do not fully understand it either. So stop acting all high and mighty on me.

Sorry. That just got me a little ticked. The attack against my intelligence, when you don't know me other than this website, is an insult. I may not be a chemist or astrophysicist or whatever you claim yourself and Rue to be, but I do have a modicum of intelligence and an ability to think for myself, than you very much.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:

How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly?
Sorry. That just got me a little ticked. The attack against my intelligence, when you don't know me other than this website, is an insult. I may not be a chemist or astrophysicist or whatever you claim yourself and Rue to be, but I do have a modicum of intelligence and an ability to think for myself, than you very much.

Don't give it a passing thought friend. They call everybody stupid here. It's a badge of honor to be called stupid by them.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:05 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"did indeed both come up with a type of computer system that the masses ended up wanting en masse"

Again, not true. Due to (illegal) licensing agreements with vendors, for the longest time that was ALL you could get at the going price.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:07 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly? Hmmmm... I guess I must be too stupid to understand you're line of thinking then. You propose a flat income to avoid hard work then call me an idiot for not understanding what you're proposing. And I was civil the whole time, too. I know you didn't flat out call me a moron, but it's certainly implied.

I DO apologize. I am so very sorry. I tend to do that, and it gets very much in the way of what I'm trying to say. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

If it makes you feel any better you can kick me three times around the block 'cause I deserve it!

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"did indeed both come up with a type of computer system that the masses ended up wanting en masse"

Again, not true. Due to (illegal) licensing agreements with vendors, for the longest time that was ALL you could get at the going price.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

*SIGH*
Whatever then . . . pick another example with your ginormous intellect.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Okay, anyway... I will try not to be so infuriatingly snarky as I do, indeed, appreciate the honest and insightful conversation!

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 7:59 AM

That was directed toward Rue. Your apology is accepted. No hard feelings.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, April 24, 2009 8:00 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rip - YOU are the one with a point to make. It is up to YOU to illustrate your point to show it is a good one.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 8:06 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That was directed toward Rue. Your apology is accepted. No hard feelings.

We cool then? GREAT!

I want you- and Jongsstraw, Sarge and others- to know that this board HAS changed my thinking. While I'm still extremely skeptical about the basis and future of capitalism (IMHO it doesn't do what it says it does, and it's got a fatal internal contradiction that keeps needing to be papered over with a bigger and bigger money supply) I've also become more skeptical about the willingness of our current political system - democracy tho it is- to tackle our problems. It has a 65/35 history. Not all bad, but definitely not all good either. Too corrupted by wealthy/ powerful entities and interests to really promote democracy and freedom.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 8:34 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Rip

At this point I AM going to give you the insult you so clearly deserve.

"How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly? Hmmmm... I guess I must be too stupid to understand you're line of thinking then. You propose a flat income to avoid hard work then call me an idiot for not understanding what you're proposing. And I was civil the whole time, too. I know you didn't flat out call me a moron, but it's certainly implied.
^
|
That was directed toward Rue."

Point out where I made these comments.

POINT OUT WHERE I INSULTED YOU. Point out where I personally directed any comment to you. Point out where I even IMPLIED a personal insult, anywhere. Point out where I did ANYTHING except disagree using historical facts, and discuss using logic.

YOU ARE A LYING ASS.

There. NOW you have your personal insult.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 8:40 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Rue, I think RIP confused us. Happens a lot cause we sound a lot alike. I definitely deserved a slap uspide the head, you IMHO did not. Just chalk it up to an oops and let it go.

Anyway, Sarge, in case you missed it, I did reply to your post. What I said was: There's nothing voluntary about capitalism. Every time you work for someone or buy something made in a capitalist system you pay a 30% "capitalism tax". That we are given narrow options by the PTB, and being free to choose among the bad options given to us isn't "freedom".

As I value your opinion, I wonder what you think about my viewpoint.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 8:42 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

NO. I get accused of a LOT of crap that I don't do.

I have HAD it with that shit.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 8:46 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Yeah, but mostly by peeps like rappy. Consider the source.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 9:35 AM

Rue - I never insulted you and you calling me names is uncalled for. I clearly responded to each of your posts with the quotes from each post that I had issues with. So please consider THAT before ripping on ME. My initial response was to Signym on what SHE said and I indicated it as such by referencing HER quote. Not yours.

Rue - my response to you, to which I referenced your quote, was a frustrated resignation with YOUR insistence on pointing out the flaws in my example of Gates and company. If you want to pick out the flaws so badly, then please pick your own example. That is all that was meant.

Let's move past this, shall we?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:06 AM

Easy now, folks...

For the most part it seems despite our disagreements, and with the exception of a few lunatics, we're mostly moving towards a consensus here, which is pretty cool.

As for why we have unemployment, for the same reason we have starvation despite more than enough resources to feed the whole goddamn planet twice over - quite deliberately for use as a political platform in combination to the neglect, inefficiency and outright greed of our current system.

I remember as a very young man wondering why the hell we were paying farmers to not grow food, or to let it rot, while americans were starving, and me being me, went about findin the hell out, and came away not liking the answers one damn bit.

I wish I could invest more time and thought in this convo right now, but alas I am up to my neck in catherding a bunch of well-meaning idiots while protecting them from pre-emptive assault and agents provacateur on a massive scale and it's kinda melting my brains and takin up all my time at the moment.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:21 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Wow. I step away from this thread for one day and the socialists are at each others throats.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:23 AM

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:28 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

At least he made it past April 15. Wait until 2010 when I'll bet the $$$ is spent before the IRS even has it.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 10:52 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So yeah, I know a li'l' bit about hard work. Been working pretty much non-stop for almost 35 years, since I was 13.

That explains why you're always grumpy and pissed. You're a tired old man who needs a vacation.

You may be onto something there, Jongsy. Don't matter, though - I don't get to take vacation. If I did, the other people at work would either screw things up so bad that I'd have to work twice as hard once I got back, or they'd figure out that they could do it without me! Can't risk either of those things...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 11:36 AM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Easy now, folks...

For the most part it seems despite our disagreements, and with the exception of a few lunatics, we're mostly moving towards a consensus here, which is pretty cool.

If we could just reach consensus on who the "lunatics" are.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 11:57 AM

Aw, does it matter? Sometimes even "lunatics" have good ideas. It's always the people on the fringe who come up with the solutions, not the people shouting down on the floor.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 11:58 AM

That's easy Kirk - the answer, not just to you, but to everyone, is as close as the nearest mirror.

We're ALL nuts in some way, I was just making a subtle joke as a mild chainyank.

I'd get more into the discussion, but I got a huge pile on my inbox (am chuggin a Bologna & Cheese "lunch" at the moment) and have a crap ton of stuff to handle - and it's only gettin worse since locally I get tapped to handle THIS matter, since our police protection is all but illusory despite the expense...
http://rebelreports.com/post/98982420/us-cities-increasing-use-of-arme
d-mercenaries-to

Private security ain't mercs, Blackwater, etc are PMCs, NOT private security, and private security has a pretty decent code and conduct once you discount the bastards playin footsie with the military and alphabet goons, and now I gotta write a damn proceedures and ethics manual from almost scratch as a universal guideline for this whole damn county, oh joy oh joy...

And the SHIT that passes for word processors these days is such crap I am tempted as hell to go dig out my goddamn manual Underwood Five and have at it THAT way and they can scan it to PDF later, grrrrr...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Friday, April 24, 2009 12:02 PM

KIRKULES

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Are YOU saying that it's fair to pay a health insurance executives- whose sole function, it seems, is to protect his fat paycheck and rip everyone off- twenty TIMES more than any doctor, who is actually in the business of saving lives? Thats it "fair" that these administrators suck 30% out of every dollar YOU pay for health insurance?

For what?

The health industry is highly regulated by Government, so you can hardly blame Capitalism for fat cat insurance executives. We only have ourselves to blame because we continually reelect a Senate and House that are in the pockets of the insurance lobby. If voters weren't so complacent we could fix this in one election cycle.

Quote:

I'm not advocating universal flat salary. Hell, no! That would be as unfair as a FLAT TAX, wouldn't it? But CLEARLY our compensation system is flawed. It doesn't reward hard work, advanced education, or brilliant insight. Its skewed to favor the uber-wealthy, who do little of anything except screw us over and hang like leeches on the carotid arteries of commerce.

I think you're right that a one rate "Flat Tax" will never fly, but how about a progressive flat rate tax were you would simply take the rate for your bracket multiplied times your gross income and that's your tax. No deductions, no loopholes period. The entire new tax code could be written on one page instead to the thousands in the current code.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 12:34 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The health industry is highly regulated by Government

How?

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

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Friday, April 24, 2009 3:21 PM