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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, to specifically address rappys' point: You're setting the bar very low if the only thing you can claim is that we're "not as bad as them."

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Finn, if you want to have a REAL discussion on the issue, why don't you answer the question I posed to Rappy?

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Originally posted by Hero:

A little water and discomfort is a mild price to pay for the continued existance of an entire people.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
the way you cry about it

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Finn, if you want to have a REAL discussion on the issue, why don't you answer the question I posed to Rappy?

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First of all, you weren’t talking to me. Secondly, you’ve not made a post to me that wasn't trolling, which has been your reputation lately. Would you like to deflect that argument to my spelling again? You’ve already demonstrated to me how little your interested in discussion, so you shouldn’t be surprised if people seek out other members of the board when they're interested in discussion.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So now you're trolling me then, eh? What in this post of yours is NOT trollish?

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're". Hey, you asked...

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're".

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
So now you're trolling me then, eh? What in this post of yours is NOT trollish?

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're". Hey, you asked...

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And now you know why I'm not interested, next time don't act so disappointed.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

BTW, you misused "your" when you probably meant "you're".

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You just couldn't resist...



The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
AgentR ?

I find it very telling that none of em even addresses my arguments despite the fact that I know something about this kinda thing and happened to provide hard evidence of our own admissions we did in fact torture folks to death.

They just go on arguing with everyone else in the thread and dance around ever having to own up to the facts of the matter - which is rather typical when authoritarian types run up against something that refutes their entire worldview.

It's like it don't even exist, because they cannot fit it into the artificial reality they have constructed for themselves.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Landay also quoted a former intelligence official, who said, "There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used."

"The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there."

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Originally posted by Hero:

A little water and discomfort is a mild price to pay for the continued existance of an entire people. If we were them...they would cease to exist in the fire of American fury. But we're not them...so instead the get water and mercy. Such is life.

H

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Facts be damned, Fox News and others pressed forward with the story repeatedly.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Finn, if you won't speak for yourself people will naturally wonder why. And they will infer all kinds of thoughts and motivations to you that might not belong.

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I won't cheer and I won't laugh. I also won't be terribly surprised.

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Originally posted by rue:
Conservative leader and radio host Rush Limbaugh asserted, "If you look at what we are calling torture, you have to laugh," said that "if somebody can be water-tortured six times a day, then it isn't torture," and claimed that "appeasers" have "water[ed] down" definition of torture like "NOW gang" did with definition of domestic violence.

Radio host G. Gordon Liddy compared the proposed technique of placing a detainee who "appears to have a fear of insects" in "a cramped confinement box with an insect" to his appearance on a game show, stating, "I went through worse on Fear Factor."

Fox News contributor Mike Huckabee mocked the same technique: "Look, I've been in some hotels where there were more bugs than these guys faced." Huckabee went on to state that under the Obama administration, "We're going to talk to them, we're going to have a nice conversation, we're going to invite them down for some tea and crumpets."

Fox & Friends co-host Gretchen Carlson replied, "That usually works with your kids, too, right? When they're in trouble for something, they just tell you everything."

To which her co-host Steve Doocy joked, "Mr. Moussaoui, it's time for you over in the time-out chair."

To buttress his support of torture, Fox News' resident conspiracy-theorist-in-chief Glenn Beck aired a clip from Fox's 24.

When they weren't bowled over with laughter, many media conservatives were serving up the dubious claim that harsh interrogation techniques used on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed "stopped an attack on the Library Tower in Los Angeles." The claim conflicts with the chronology of events put forth on multiple occasions by the Bush administration. Indeed, the Bush administration said that the Library Tower attack was thwarted in February 2002 -- more than a year before Mohammed was captured in March 2003. Facts be damned, Fox News and others pressed forward with the story repeatedly. (But missed the bigger story that time travel had been perfected.) Typifying the use of this story, Sean Hannity claimed this week that enhanced interrogation techniques "saved an American city, Los Angeles."

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


The Left will demonize anyone

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You know, for a long time now, every time you go on about "the Left...", I hear it in that voice of the guy from Temple Of Doom- you know the one- "..it seems THE BRITISH blah blah blah..." LOL.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
The Left will demonize anyone, any position they can think of, no matter what it is, just to sway public opinion and get more and more political power. The Left, more than any other, is PARTY FIRST, America SUCKS.

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Its the tactic of picking the ' low hanging fruit'. Gen up a phony issue, like accusing the Bush admin of TORTURE, where there is no torture, and then let the chaos ensue. Meanwhile, .....
\

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AURaptor:


The Left will demonize anyone

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You know, for a long time now, every time you go on about "the Left...", I hear it in that voice of the guy from Temple Of Doom- you know the one- "..it seems THE BRITISH blah blah blah..." LOL.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?

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No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.

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We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.

We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.

I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
So what are you saying here, that we saved the Human race because of waterboarding...?

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No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.

We know that if the terrorists had the means they would destroy us, all of us, not just the military and the government, but every man, woman, and child. We have the means and choose not to destroy them...we are better then them.

We know that given the means they would use torture...not just to extract information that would be used to take more lives...but to inflict pain and suffering on the victim. They would not stop with waterboarding and sleep deprivation but would use anything and everything at their disposal without regard for sentiment or morality. We use it in limited and strictly controlled circumstances to gain information to save lives....again, because we are better then them.

I'm not saying torture everybody that comes through the door. But the tool should be in the box and they need to know its there...and like any tool it has its proper use by skilled craftmen doing a specific job.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.

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All I can do is agree if y'all are gonna express my opinions for me here.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:



How can he use the words "Arab race" and not stop short and just shake himself out of what he's cooking up in his head? How blurry is his picture that he lumps it all together, vast populations of wholy individual people, and put it in a pot labled "evil" and then pat himself on the back because no one performed genocide on them?

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
You've created one hell of a demonic picture in your head, one hell of an US vs. THEM schisma, and you live in a very hopeless world because of it, because it will never allow you to believe in a positive solution.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
No...I'm saying we chose waterboarding over extinguishing the Arab race in nuclear fire. A choice they would not have made given the means and opportunity.

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And now you've lowered the bar even more. Where once America sought to be the Light of the World, the shining mansion on the hill, the beacon of hope in a world of darkness... Now you're hoping that "we're better than most terrorists" is a catchy new motto. "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to be free..."

Wow, you make America suck. You should be ashamed, and if you had any real decency, you'd commit ritual suicide for the dishonor you've brought to your country in its time of need.

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we would not and must not bring such terrible conflict upon another people unless the failure to act would bring about that one thing which is worse then War...Defeat.

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I note for the record that 99% if the Pakistani people are of the Indo-Iranian ethnic group. Arabs comprise a few thousand, mostly refugees, of the world's sixth most heavily populated nation.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Poppycock. How was it that Iraq was going to defeat us, then? Why did we have to "bring such terrible conflict upon another people"?

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I note for the record that 99% if the Pakistani people are of the Indo-Iranian ethnic group. Arabs comprise a few thousand, mostly refugees, of the world's sixth most heavily populated nation.

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So, who are "the Arab race" that you speak of? I think you're confusing nationality, religion, and race again. Are we at war with the Saudis? Aren't they "Arabs", being from Saudi Arabia and all? And weren't they the largest single group represented by the 9/11 hijackers?

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By the way, did you just use Sherman's sacking of Atlanta to illustrate our mercy and patriotism?

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Originally posted by Hero:
We used those methods, we stopped a major attack

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Hero:
We used those methods, we stopped a major attack

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Details, please.

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Originally posted by Hero:


Until then you'll need to be satisfied with everybody who says it happened.

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Originally posted by Hero:

It has been argued that the standard "we are not as bad as the terrorists" is too low. I note for the record that it is much better to hear such a motto spoken by the living then to see "we could have done more" etched on the tombstones of the dead.

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Until then you'll need to be satisfied with everybody who says it happened.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by Hero:

It has been argued that the standard "we are not as bad as the terrorists" is too low. I note for the record that it is much better to hear such a motto spoken by the living then to see "we could have done more" etched on the tombstones of the dead.

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Anything that keeps you alive is worth it, eh? You have no values you'd treasure, aside from might makes right and enjoying the fantasy of completely erradicating what gives you trouble, like a bullied child?

I swear, this post of yours sounded like a masturbation fantasy. A creepy one. With Biblical themes about complete submission to the all powerful God, and complete annihilation in case of rebellion. And a complete lack of accountability to any rules at all, because You Are All Powerful. Very old testament. Very Job.

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