Remember Haiti? by Niki2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

What the hell has any of that got to do with anything? We of course realize nothing's important to you except that which touches your own life, or which you can bitch and moan about, but those were certainly useless comments to make about people's misery. Oh, by the way, in this use it would be "who", not "whom". Just sayin'...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 10:08 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Oh, Sorry Niki... just responding to your obviously manipulative thread title...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 10:39 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Hey, Wulfie, I'm not sure who it is that keeps me away from RWED more, you or PirateNews. You're both worthless as far as ideas are concerned.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 10:45 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Wow... puppet theater 101...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 11:09 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
obviously manipulative thread title...

Woa, that's a helluva reach. Dunno where you got THAT one; pulled it out of your ass, did you? Those are new photos to me, or here, and in my opinion interesting, what's that got to do with manipulation? No, wait, don't bother answering...

He doesn't live in the real world...he doesn't live in the real world...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 1:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Hmm, you know, once the crisis has been stabilized and humanitarian efforts have gotten things to a sustainable point - it might be worth the effort to peek down into them cracks with a geosurvey team and see if there's maybe anything that might be spun into helping obtain resources for rebuilding, be it mineral deposits, archological or even petrol, some natural resource they can lay claim to and use to help climb back up from the chaos.

Just an idle thought, off the top of my head.

Also, geo-thermal power ?
Oh, wait, oooo (another topic, another topic)
If there's enough temperature differential down there, they might be able to squeeze some energy out of it with a geotherm or stirling generator type, just thinkin on it.

-F

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Monday, February 8, 2010 1:10 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hmmm, interesting ideas! Not that anyone will follow them up most likely...sadly...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 1:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Hmm, you know, once the crisis has been stabilized and humanitarian efforts have gotten things to a sustainable point - it might be worth the effort to peek down into them cracks with a geosurvey team and see if there's maybe anything that might be spun into helping obtain resources for rebuilding, be it mineral deposits, archeological or even petrol, some natural resource they can lay claim to and use to help climb back up from the chaos.

Just an idle thought, off the top of my head.

-F

Mayhaps , not SO idle :

The Fateful Geological Prize Called Haiti

By F. William Engdahl

Global Research, January 30, 2010
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17287

President becomes UN Special Envoy to earthquake-stricken Haiti.

A born-again neo-conservative US business wheeler-dealer preacher claims Haitians are condemned for making a literal ‘pact with the Devil.’

Venezuelan, Nicaraguan, Bolivian, French and Swiss rescue organizations accuse the US military of refusing landing rights to planes bearing necessary medicines and urgently needed potable water to the millions of Haitians stricken, injured and homeless.

Behind the smoke, rubble and unending drama of human tragedy in the hapless Caribbean country, a drama is in full play for control of what geophysicists believe may be one of the world’s richest zones for hydrocarbons-oil and gas outside the Middle East, possibly orders of magnitude greater than that of nearby Venezuela.

Haiti, and the larger island of Hispaniola of which it is a part, has the geological fate that it straddles one of the world’s most active geological zones, where the deepwater plates of three huge structures relentlessly rub against one another—the intersection of the North American, South American and Caribbean tectonic plates. Below the ocean and the waters of the Caribbean, these plates consist of an oceanic crust some 3 to 6 miles thick, floating atop an adjacent mantle. Haiti also lies at the edge of the region known as the Bermuda Triangle, a vast area in the Caribbean subject to bizarre and unexplained disturbances.

This vast mass of underwater plates are in constant motion, rubbing against each other along lines analogous to cracks in a broken porcelain vase that has been reglued. The earth’s tectonic plates typically move at a rate 50 to 100 mm annually in relation to one another, and are the origin of earthquakes and of volcanoes. The regions of convergence of such plates are also areas where vast volumes of oil and gas can be pushed upwards from the Earth’s mantle. The geophysics surrounding the convergence of the three plates that run more or less directly beneath Port-au-Prince make the region prone to earthquakes such as the one that struck Haiti with devastating ferocity on January 12.

A relevant Texas geological project

Leaving aside the relevant question of how well in advance the Pentagon and US scientists knew the quake was about to occur, and what Pentagon plans were being laid before January 12, another issue emerges around the events in Haiti that might help explain the bizarre behavior to date of the major ‘rescue’ players—the United States, France and Canada. Aside from being prone to violent earthquakes, Haiti also happens to lie in a zone that, due to the unusual geographical intersection of its three tectonic plates, might well be straddling one of the world’s largest unexplored zones of oil and gas, as well as of valuable rare strategic minerals.

The vast oil reserves of the Persian Gulf and of the region from the Red Sea into the Gulf of Aden are at a similar convergence zone of large tectonic plates, as are such oil-rich zones as Indonesia and the waters off the coast of California. In short, in terms of the physics of the earth, precisely such intersections of tectonic masses as run directly beneath Haiti have a remarkable tendency to be the sites of vast treasures of minerals, as well as oil and gas, throughout the world.

Notably, in 2005, a year after the Bush-Cheney Administration de facto deposed the democratically elected President of Haiti, Jean-Baptiste Aristide, a team of geologists from the Institute for Geophysics at the University of Texas began an ambitious and thorough two-phase mapping of all geological data of the Caribbean Basins. The project is due to be completed in 2011. Directed by Dr. Paul Mann, it is called “Caribbean Basins, Tectonics and Hydrocarbons.” It is all about determining as precisely as possible the relation between tectonic plates in the Caribbean and the potential for hydrocarbons—oil and gas.

Notably, the sponsors of the multi-million dollar research project under Mann are the world’s largest oil companies, including Chevron, ExxonMobil, the Anglo-Dutch Shell and BHP Billiton.[1] Curiously enough, the project is the first comprehensive geological mapping of a region that, one would have thought, would have been a priority decades ago for the US oil majors. Given the immense, existing oil production off Mexico, Louisiana, and the entire Caribbean, as well as its proximity to the United States – not to mention the US focus on its own energy security – it is surprising that the region had not been mapped earlier. Now it emerges that major oil companies were at least generally aware of the huge oil potential of the region long ago, but apparently decided to keep it quiet.

Cuba’s Super-giant find

Evidence that the US Administration may well have more in mind for Haiti than the improvement of the lot of the devastated Haitian people can be found in nearby waters off Cuba, directly across from Port-au-Prince. In October 2008 a consortium of oil companies led by Spain’s Repsol, together with Cuba's state oil company, Cubapetroleo, announced discovery of one of the world’s largest oilfields in the deep water off Cuba. It is what oil geologists call a ‘Super-giant’ field. Estimates are that the Cuban field contains as much as 20 billion barrels of oil, making it the twelfth Super-giant oilfield discovered since 1996. The discovery also likely makes Cuba a new high-priority target for Pentagon destabilization and other nasty operations.

No doubt to the dismay of Washington, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev flew to Havana one month after the Cuban giant oil find to sign an agreement with acting-President Raul Castro for Russian oil companies to explore and develop Cuban oil.[2]

Medvedev’s Russia-Cuba oil agreements came only a week after the visit of Chinese President Hu Jintao to meet the recuperating Fidel Castro and his brother Raul. The Chinese President signed an agreement to modernize Cuban ports and discussed Chinese purchase of Cuban raw materials. No doubt the mammoth new Cuban oil discovery was high on the Chinese agenda with Cuba.[3] On November 5, 2008, just prior to the Chinese President’s trip to Cuba and other Latin American countries, the Chinese government issued their first ever policy paper on the future of China’s relations with Latin America and Caribbean nations, elevating these bilateral relations to a new level of strategic importance. [4]

The Cuba Super-giant oil find also leaves the advocates of ‘Peak Oil’ theory with more egg on the face. Shortly before the Bush-Blair decision to invade and occupy Iraq, a theory made the rounds of cyberspace, that sometime after 2010, the world would reach an absolute “peak” in world oil production, initiating a period of decline with drastic social and economic implications. Its prominent spokesmen, including retired oil geologist Colin Campbell and Texas oil banker Matt Simmons, claimed that there had not been a single new Super-giant oil discovery since 1976, or thereabouts, and that new fields found over the past two decades had been “tiny” compared with the earlier giant discoveries in Saudi Arabia, Prudhoe Bay, Daquing in China and elsewhere. [5]

It is critical to note that, more than half a century ago, a group of Russian and Ukrainian geophysicists, working in state secrecy, confirmed that hydrocarbons originated deep in the earth’s mantle under conditions similar to a giant burning cauldron at extreme temperature and pressure. They demonstrated that, contrary to US and accepted Western ‘mainstream’ geology, hydrocarbons were not the result of dead dinosaur detritus concentrated and compressed and somehow transformed into oil and gas millions of years ago, nor of algae or other biological material.[6]

The Russian and Ukrainian geophysicists then proved that the oil or gas produced in the earth’s mantle was pushed upwards along faults or cracks in the earth as close to the surface as pressures permitted. The process was analogous to the production of molten lava in volcanoes. It means that the ability to find oil is limited, relatively speaking, only by the ability to identify deep fissures and complex geological activity conducive to bringing the oil out from deep in the earth. It seems that the waters of the Caribbean, especially those off Cuba and its neighbor Haiti, are just such a region of concentrated hydrocarbons (oil and gas) that have found their way upwards close to the surface, perhaps in a magnitude comparable to a new Saudi Arabia.[7]

Haiti, a new Saudi Arabia?

The remarkable geography of Haiti and Cuba and the discovery of world-class oil reserves in the waters off Cuba lend credence to anecdotal accounts of major oil discoveries in several parts of Haitian territory. It also could explain why two Bush Presidents and now special UN Haiti Envoy Bill Clinton have made Haiti such a priority. As well, it could explain why Washington and its NGOs moved so quickly to remove-- twice-- the democratically elected President Aristide, whose economic program for Haiti included, among other items, proposals for developing Haitian natural resources for the benefit of the Haitian people.

In March 2004, some months before the University of Texas and American Big Oil launched their ambitious mapping of the hydrocarbon potentials of the Caribbean, a Haitian writer, Dr. Georges Michel, published online an article titled ‘Oil in Haiti.’ In it, Michel wrote,

… .t has been no secret that deep in the earthy bowels of the two states that share the island of Haiti and the surrounding waters that there are significant, still untapped deposits of oil. One knows not why they are still untapped. Since the early twentieth century, the physical and political map of the island of Haiti, erected in 1908 by Messrs. Alexander Poujol and Henry Thomasset, reported a major oil reservoir in Haiti near the source of the Rio Todo El Mondo, Tributary Right Artibonite River, better known today as the River Thomonde. [8]

According to a June 2008 article by Roberson Alphonse in the Haitian paper, Le Nouvelliste en Haiti, “The signs, (indicators), justifying the explorations of oil (black gold) in Haiti are encouraging. In the middle of the oil shock, some 4 companies want official licenses from the Haitian State to drill for oil.”

At the time, oil prices were climbing above $140 a barrel -- on manipulations by various Wall Street banks. Alphonse’s article quoted Dieusuel Anglade, the Haitian State Director of the Office of Mining and Energy, telling the Haitian press: "We've received four requests for oil exploration permits…We have had encouraging indicators to justify the pursuit of the exploration of black gold (oil), which had stopped in 1979."[9]

Alphonse reported the findings from a 1979 geological study in Haiti of 11 exploratory oil wells drilled at the Plaine du Cul-de-sac on the Plateau Central and at L'ile de La Gonaive: “Surface (tentative) indicators for oil were found at the Southern peninsula and on the North coast, explained the engineer Anglade, who strongly believes in the immediate commercial viability of these explorations.”[10]

Journalist Alphonse cites an August 16, 1979 memo by Haitian attorney Francois Lamothe, in which he noted that “five big wells were drilled” down to depths of 9000 feet and that a sample that “underwent a physical-chemical analysis in Munich, Germany” had “revealed tracks of oil.” [11]

Despite the promising 1979 results in Haiti, Dr. Georges Michel reported that, “the big multinational oil companies operating in Haiti pushed for the discovered deposits not to be exploited.” [12] Oil exploration in and offshore Haiti ground to a sudden halt as a result.

Similar if less precise reports claiming that Haitian oil reserves could be vastly larger than those of Venezuela have appeared in Haitian websites. [13] Then in 2010 the financial news site Bloomberg News carried the following:

The Jan. 12 earthquake was on a fault line that passes near potential gas reserves, said Stephen Pierce, a geologist who worked in the region for 30 years for companies that included the former Mobil Corp. The quake may have cracked rock formations along the fault, allowing gas or oil to temporarily seep toward the surface, he said Monday in a telephone interview. ‘A geologist, callous as it may seem, tracing that fault zone from Port-au-Prince to the border looking for gas and oil seeps, may find a structure that hasn't been drilled,’ said Pierce, exploration manager at Zion Oil & Gas Inc., a Dallas-based company that's drilling in Israel. [14]

In an interview with a Santo Domingo online paper, Leopoldo Espaillat Nanita, former head of the Dominican Petroleum Refinery (REFIDOMSA) stated, “there is a multinational conspiracy to illegally take the mineral resources of the Haitian people.” [15] Haiti’s minerals include gold, the valuable strategic metal iridium and oil, apparently lots of it.

Aristide’s development plans

Marguerite Laurent ('Ezili Dantò'), president of the Haitian Lawyers’ Leadership Network (HLLN) who served as attorney for the deposed Aristide, notes that when Aristide was President -- up until his US-backed ouster during the Bush era in 2004 -- he had developed and published in book form his national development plans. These plans included, for the first time, a detailed list of known sites where the resources of Haiti were located. The publication of the plan sparked a national debate over Haitian radio and in the media about the future of the country. Aristide’s plan was to implement a public-private partnership to ensure that the development of Haiti’s oil, gold and other valuable resources would benefit the national economy and the broader population, and not merely the five Haitian oligarchic families and their US backers, the so-called Chimeres or gangsters. [16]

Since the ouster of Aristide in 2004, Haiti has been an occupied country, with a dubiously-elected President, Rene Preval, a controversial follower of IMF privatization mandates and reportedly tied to the Chimeres or Haitian oligarchs who backed the removal of Aristide. Notably, the US State Department refuses to permit the return of Aristide from South African exile.

Now, in the wake of the devastating earthquake of January 12, the United States military has taken control of Haiti’s four airports and presently has some 20,000 troops in the country. Journalists and international aid organizations have accused the US military of being more concerned with imposing military control, which it prefers to call “security,” than with bringing urgently needed water, food and medicine from the airport sites to the population.

A US military occupation of Haiti under the guise of earthquake disaster ‘relief’ would give Washington and private business interests tied to it a geopolitical prize of the first order. Prior to the January 12 quake, the US Embassy in Port-au-Prince was the fifth largest US embassy in the world, comparable to its embassies in such geopolitically strategic places as Berlin and Beijing.[17] With huge new oil finds off Cuba being exploited by Russian companies, with clear indications that Haiti contains similar vast untapped oil as well as gold, copper, uranium and iridium, with Hugo Chavez’ Venezuela as a neighbor to the south of Haiti, a return of Aristide or any popular leader committed to developing the resources for the people of Haiti, -- the poorest nation in the Americas -- would constitute a devastating blow to the world’s sole Superpower. The fact that in the aftermath of the earthquake, UN Haiti Special Envoy Bill Clinton joined forces with Aristide foe George W. Bush to create something called the Clinton-Bush Haiti Fund ought to give everyone pause.

According to Marguerite Laurent ('Ezili Dantò') of the Haitian Lawyers’ Leadership Network, under the guise of emergency relief work, the US, France and Canada are engaged in a balkanization of the island for future mineral control. She reports rumors that Canada wants the North of Haiti where Canadian mining interests are already present. The US wants Port-au-Prince and the island of La Gonaive just offshore – an area identified in Aristide’s development book as having vast oil resources, and which is bitterly contested by France. She further states that China, with UN veto power over the de facto UN-occupied country, may have something to say against such a US-France-Canada carve up of the vast wealth of the nation. [18]

Notes:

1 Paul Mann, Caribbean Basins, Tectonic Plates & Hydrocarbons, Institute for Geophysics, The University of Texas at Austin, accessed in
www.ig.utexas.edu/research/projects/cbth/.../ProposalCaribbean.pdf .

2 Rory Carroll, Medvedev and Castro meet to rebuild Russia-Cuba relations, London Guardian, November 28, 2008 accessed in http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/28/cuba-russia.

3 Julian Gavaghan, Comrades in arms: When China’s President Hu met a frail Fidel Castro, London Daily Mail, November 19, 2008, accessed in http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1087485/Comrades-arms-When-Chi
nas-President-Hu-met-frail-Fidel-Castro.html.

4 Peoples’ Daily Online, China issues first policy paper on Latin America, Caribbean region, November 5, 2008, accessed in http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90776/90883/6527888.html .

5 Matthew R. Simmons, The World’s Giant Oilfields, Simmons & Co. International, Houston, accessed in http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/files/giantoilfields.pdf .

6 Anton Kolesnikov, et al, Methane-derived hydrocarbons produced under upper-mantle conditions, Nature Geoscience, July 26, 2009.

7 F. William Engdahl, War and Peak Oil—Confessions of an ‘ex’ Peak Oil believer, Global Research, September 26, 2007, accessed in http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6880 .

8 Dr. Georges Michel, Oil in Haiti, English translation from French, Pétrole en Haiti, March 27, 2004, accessed in http://www.margueritelaurent.com/pressclips/oil_sites.html#oil_Georges
MichelEnglish .

9 Roberson Alphonse, Drill, and then pump the oil of Haiti! 4 oil companies request oil drilling permits, translated from the original French, June 27, 2008, accessed in
http://www.bnvillage.co.uk/caribbean-news-village-beta/99691-drill-the
n-pump-oil-haiti-4-oil-companies-request-oil-drilling-permits.html

10 Ibid.

11 Ibid. The full text indicated that, “five big wells were drilled at Porto Suel (Maissade) of a depth of 9000 feet, at Bebernal, 9000 feet, at Bois-Carradeux (Ouest), at Dumornay, on the road Route Frare and close to the Chemin de Fer of Saint-Marc. A sample, a ‘carrot’ (oil reservoir) drilled up from the well of Saint-Marc in the Artibonite underwent a physical-chemical analysis in Munich, Germany, at the request of Mr. Broth. ‘The result of the analysis was returned on October 11, 1979 and revealed tracks of oil,’ confided the engineer, Willy Clemens, who had gone to Germany.”

12 Dr. Georges Michel, op. cit.

13 Marguerite Laurent, Haiti is full of oil, say Ginette and Daniel Mathurin, Radio Metropole, Jan 28, 2008, accessed in
http://www.margueritelaurent.com/pressclips/oil_sites.html#full_of_oil.

14 Jim Polson, Haiti earthquake may have exposed gas, aiding economy, Bloomberg News, January 26, 2010.

15 Espaillat Nanita revela en Haiti existen grandes recursos de oro y otros minerals, Espacinsular.org, 17 November, 2009, accessed in
http://www.espacinsular.org/spip.php?article8942 .

16 The Aristide development plan was contained in the book published in Haiti in 2000, Investir dans l’Human. Livre Blanc de Fanmi Lavalas sous la Direction de Jean-Bertrand Aristide, Port-au-Prince, Imprimerie Henri Deschamps, 2000. It contained detailed maps, tables, graphics, and a national development plan for 2004 “covering agriculture, environment, commerce and industry, the financial sector, infrastructure, education, culture, health, women's issues, and issues in the public sector.” In 2004, using NGOs and the UN and a vicious propaganda campaign to vilify Aristide, the Bush administration got rid of the elected President.

17 Cynthia McKinney, Haiti: An Unwelcome Katrina Redux, Global Research, January 19, 2010, accessed in
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17063.

18 Marguerite Laurent (Ezili Danto), Did mining and oil drilling trigger the Haiti earthquake?, OpEd News.com, January 23, 2010, accessed in
http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Did-mining-and-oil-drillin-by-Ezili
-Danto-100123-329.html.

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Previously referenced in this very Forum , in this thread :

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41717

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:05 PM

Um... Oil and Gas come from the mantle? I can see an argument about minerals, but not oil and gas. Oil and Gas ARE rich in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, partially because it's a fairly warm shallow sea which means the ocean floor is rich in organic sediment. Add some compression and heat (via, for example, a fault) and there you go.

I don't necessarily disagree about what the article is suggesting, that there may be some ulterior interests involved in the Haiti crisis, but yeah, I'm a little dubious about those claims.

Especially the part about "Russian and Ukrainian Scientists." I used to work for a research institute off the University of Utah that specialized in locating probable oil fields, my boss was Russian. He believed the usual ideas about what oil is and how it's created. There's a little too much OMG! RUSSIA! CHINA! CUBA! VENEZUELA! in that article for me to think it's not a little biased.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Um... Oil and Gas come from the mantle? I can see an argument about minerals, but not oil and gas. Oil and Gas ARE rich in the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, partially because it's a fairly warm shallow sea which means the ocean floor is rich in organic sediment. Add some compression and heat (via, for example, a fault) and there you go.

I don't necessarily disagree about what the article is suggesting, that there may be some ulterior interests involved in the Haiti crisis, but yeah, some of that isn't technically correct.

Perhaps not Technically Correct according to your learning in a Politically-Correct establishment...

But you are young yet , and clearly educable...

Do a Google Search on the Subject : 'Abiogenesis Of Petroleum'. What you read and discover will hold your attention for more than a tick , if you are even fractionally as smart as I believe you to be...

Meanwhile , for other Folk as are interested :

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41552
"...Do some of these technologies explain the whale kills / marine mammal strandings that recur from time to time ? In those instances , where the Navy admits any involvement at all , they attribute the damage to tests of 'Sonar' equipment..."

' Stranger Than Fiction?

Report: US Weapon Test Aimed at Iran Caused Haiti Quake '

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24488.htm

"...Some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."

---DoD News Briefing: Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen

Cohen's keynote address at the Conference on Terrorism, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and U.S. Strategy at the Georgia Center, Mahler Auditorium, University of Georgia, Athens, Ga. April 28, 1997 8:45 AM EDT

http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=674

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:24 PM

Yeah, um, the wikipedia article I just found even says that's it's not very well supported scientifically. You probably missed my edit, but when I was working through college, I worked for a research institute that specialized in locating oil fields and co-investing in the fields with larger companies. My boss was Russian, and none of us worked on principles of abiogenesis. He believed in the standard explanation.

But I'm continuing to read here, maybe when I see what the proposed method of generation is, it'll make more sense.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

...Especially the part about "Russian and Ukrainian Scientists." I used to work for a research institute off the University of Utah that specialized in locating probable oil fields, my boss was Russian. He believed the usual ideas about what oil is and how it's created. There's a little too much OMG! RUSSIA! CHINA! CUBA! VENEZUELA! in that article for me to think it's not a little biased.

One Russian , one anecdotal experience...Not invalidating your experience , just noting that there may be other points of view , that you're not yet aware of fully...

Like I said , it'll hold you for more than a tick...

This sort of thing will , also :

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:28 PM

Another reason for me to not like this idea, it clearly has its roots in the "water was brought to earth by METEORITES!" theory that I've never liked. Too many holes in the data, relies too much on luck and coincidence. After the earth formed, you have a few meteoroid groups trailing around in gravity shadows that the earth passed through, but most of the debris was gathered INTO the earth. The water was believed to have been introduced AFTER the earth and the moon formed, where the HELL did they all come from? Enough for 1.3 billion cubic kilometers? It stretches credibility.

Kwicko posted this cartoon recently, I think it's relevant.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, um, the wikipedia article I just found even says that's it's not very well supported scientifically.

But I'm continuing to read here, maybe when I see what the proposed method of generation is, it'll make more sense.

Perhaps what they should've said is that it's not very well accepted scientifically...

Yet .

...Because it goes against the conventional, Politically-Correct 'wisdom' that Folk have been raised up to believe .

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Another reason for me to not like this idea, it clearly has its roots in the "water was brought to earth by METEORITES!" theory that I've never liked. Too many holes in the data, relies too much coincidence.

Kwicko posted this cartoon recently, I think it's relevant.

Much more likely , Comets !

Squick doesn't live by his own cartoon , nor do his usual sycophants...

Keeping an 'open mind' in Science requires that all potential ideas are on the table from the beginning of the inquiry...Not the exclusion and parsing that goes on to make 'facts' fit the preconceived notions , as so often happens in these threads...

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:38 PM

It also says that it was pretty much abandoned after the 1980s, and that while there might be some generation of deep oil in this manner, it's not enough to be commercially viable.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:42 PM

Quote:
Keeping an 'open mind' in Science requires that all potential ideas are on the table from the beginning of the inquiry...Not the exclusion and parsing that goes on to make 'facts' fit the preconceived notions , as so often happens in these threads...

Yeah, that really doesn't happen much in modern science, does it?

But as an aside, I really dislike the meteors and comets theory because I just don't think it explains the data. I never have. I was thrilled when DT told me his idea about our moon originally being a Jupiter moon and there being some sort of gravity capture event. It's an intriguing idea, the only thing that bothers me is the difficulty of the gravity capture and the problem about how do you knock a moon from JUPITER'S orbit? That also would require a shit ton of luck. But it also delivers all the water in one go, which I think makes more sense.

There's also a problem in that none of the rocks from the moon seem to be hydrous. Except potentially the basalt. Strangely enough, on Earth, it's thought that a lot of the volcanism is caused by an interaction of water with super-heated rock at depth. The rock isn't hot enough or under enough pressure to "melt," it's more viscous instead. But add water, instant magma! Unless you're on a mantle hot spot plume, then you're more than hot enough to melt considering the pressure.

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Monday, February 8, 2010 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
It also says that it was pretty much abandoned after the 1980s, and that while there might be some generation of deep oil in this manner, it's not enough to be commercially viable.

Hydrogen and Carbon together under extreme heat and pressure ?

Folk would be surprised that under such circumstances , one would get 'Hydrocarbons' ?

Not enough to be 'commercially viable' ?

Follow the money...What created the unprecedented high prices on petroleum and fuels during the summer of 2008 ?

Speculation ! By 'investment banks'.

What it is desired for you to believe is that there is a 'shortage' of just about EVERY commodity...It's more PROFITABLE that way !

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

But I'm continuing to read here, maybe when I see what the proposed method of generation is, it'll make more sense.

You've been at it for less than an hour...Getting past your programming may take a bit longer than that...

I'm out of time for today...See you soon !

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Monday, February 8, 2010 3:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

Squick doesn't live by his own cartoon , nor do his usual sycophants...

Keeping an 'open mind' in Science requires that all potential ideas are on the table from the beginning of the inquiry...Not the exclusion and parsing that goes on to make 'facts' fit the preconceived notions , as so often happens in these threads...

This, from the guy who saw an odd shape on a picture of Australia on a TV screen, and went immediately to the "It must be caused by HAARP!" mantra, like the Chicken Little that he is.

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 7:09 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Changing my own title here: Think I need to start another thread. This was a curiosity to me, and a different way to look at what happened, and it's appropriate that it wandered off into the discussion it did. I should have titled it "Haiti from above". Because I AM sorry we've forgotten about Haiti and politics has again taken over.

It's still HAPPENING there, and we naturally just wander off into other stories in the MSM, like we did with the tsunami; only disasters in our own country hold our attention for long, which is normal, but there's so much still going on there, I for one don't dismiss it.

Dunno if anyone else is interested, but maybe I will put one up; there are stories still worth hearing...

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
This, from the guy who saw an odd shape on a picture of Australia on a TV screen, and went immediately to the "It must be caused by HAARP!" mantra, like the Chicken Little that he is

Originally posted by out2theblack:

Squick doesn't live by his own cartoon , nor do his usual sycophants...

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That is from Australia. Are radar images superimposed on satellite images as they are here in the US ? If so, clearly there are radar problems.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yeah, couldn't possibly have been any kind of a glitch with their radar systems or anything. It *MUST* have been HAARP.

Didn't see that on TV...Memory fails you yet again...

Ah , yes , dogmatic , unsupported statements from you and that gang that you run with...That's as much
'scientific method' as Squick can muster...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=41552

Ironically enough , 'rue' also claims to be a 'scientist'...

Unfortunately for Mikey , he has no such qualifications...Or credentials...Or , credibility , even...

You're good for inducing guffaws , though...

Helps keep my heart healthy...

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Tuesday, February 9, 2010 12:49 PM