REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Stop the Traffic

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Saturday, July 3, 2010 06:32
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VIEWED: 10601
PAGE 5 of 5

Friday, July 2, 2010 1:21 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Put another way, I don't want people who are awake (that is to say, willful, volitional) to be penalized by the people who are asleep (that is, acting out of habit). The driver of a car speeding down the road is not making constant conscious decisions to move from one stationary point in time to another, he's just "going with the flow." In essense, a protest taking place in his path asks him to become conscious, participate willfully in his world and not take things that are not his to begin with for granted.



Sorry, but that's not even close to an accurate comparison. The driver of a car is required to make CONSTANT conscious decisions, many of which are quite literally life or death decisions. What you're saying is as accurate as if I were to say that the mere act of marching in a protest is an unthinking, sheep-like act of merely following the ass of the person in front of you, saying what they say, doing what they do, just going with the flow in an effort to fit in.



AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 20:32 To AnthonyT:
Go fuck yourself.
On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.


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Friday, July 2, 2010 5:41 AM

HKCAVALIER


Sorry, Mike, but you are the I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I king. I grant that the paragraph you site from my lengthy post is not my most compelling. It occurred to me as I was writing and I thought I'd give it a shot, see if anyone even notices. So you noticed, and that's something at least.

(Doesn't do a thing for the main thrust of my argument, this reply of yours, of course. Y'know, I said, "put another way," meaning that that paragraph was supposed to be understood in the context of the rest of the argument--extracting this one little paragraph and pissing on it amounts to cherry-picking and this late in the thread that really seams counter productive, but, oh well.)

What I was trying to get at was a thought process that would make a driver think that the road ahead, that something in his future, something that has yet to happen, somehow is his freakin' birth right and anyone who would interfere with his immediate future was ACTUALLY taking something away from him. And I thought of a sleepwalker.

But this is the central fallacy of the argument coming from your side. This idea that a protester takes something away from you, when in reality it isn't yours. What makes it "yours" is a statute, a rule: cars over here and people over here. The purpose of such a rule is obviously the safety of the people and secondarily, the smooth, orderly flow of traffic. But you folks seem to think the purpose of such a rule is to guarantee the driver's rights and freedoms. Seems bizarre. Maybe you folks should organize a protest!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, July 2, 2010 5:52 AM

CITIZEN


Actually I'd be willing to say that driving a regular route isn't done particularly consciously. I've heard many people say that they sometimes find themselves at their destination because their conscious thinking mind has switched off, and habit has taken over. That's not to say they're asleep or driving dangerously, the sub-concious mind can perform tasks as equally well as the concious, otherwise sleep walking wouldn't happen.

You make life and death decisions all the time, and most of the time you're probably not even aware you're doing it.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, July 2, 2010 6:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow...this puppy has legs! Mal4, sounds fair, I’ll AtD, because I still maintain that Frem has voiced the impass that is at the base of all this: Whose rights supersede the others'?

Nonetheless, I find this interesting:
Quote:

I find that your disagreements seem to beg for one response: escalation toward a fight
Is that the only recourse? I’ve been pretty well attacked, but TRY to have no problem in addressing the issue and ignoring the rest, rather than escalating. I think escalation leads to escalation, which is exactly what I see happening here. And interestingly, it has seemed that whatever HK, Cit and I posit and however we say it still results in overblown rhetoric and examples which are so far removed from the issue at hand as to be strange.

While I agree to a point, Mike, you missed part: Driving is done, for the most part, SUBCONSCIOUSLY. CHOOSING to go somewhere and march with people who also think there’s something wrong which needs to be brought to the attention of the public is a CONSCIOUS choice, and by the way, reflecting conscience as well. The conscious choice really only comes into play when the driver is forced to stop. Then his conscious focus may turn to the inconvenience, but up until then, most people drive along and the majority of their thoughts have little to do with maneuvering the car; anyone who says otherwise isn’t listening to the stuff going on inside their head.

Oops, I see Citizen already made the point. Mea culpa for duplication, but maybe that also says the obvious fallacy of the original concept is easy to see...I dunno.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Friday, July 2, 2010 7:03 AM

MAL4PREZ


OK, HK, I really don't want to spend more time on this particular pedestrian vs car thing, but since you put so much time into it...

Um... so walking is not an action, but a state of being? Indeed, maybe you ought to look into the rules of kinematics and dynamics yourself! Simply having velocity doesn't change one's state. Velocity is all relative.

To get physical about it, force is proportional to acceleration, which is a change in velocity. A pedestrian moving into a roadway must use friction force to get there, and the car must use frictional force to avoid hitting the pedestrian. There's force all around.

A person does not get into the middle of a road without some pretty straightforward "doing" and cars, which are designed to go down roads, can certainly be thought of as "being" in their natural state. There's nothing natural about a pedestrian popping up in the middle of a road, and the fact that the ped is the one who'll lose the collision doesn't change that.

To get less physical and more philosophical, one could argue that the pedestrian is exerting a force on the car, since the pedestrian is leaving its natural state in order to force the car out of its natural state.

(My definition of "natural state": 99.9% of the time, cars drive in the lanes, peds use sidewalks and crosswalks.)

HK, you are building a whole card-house of logic based on one assumption: that pedestrians have some inane right to be in a road that cars don't have. It makes little to no sense to me, and even less bearing to what I've been trying to explain.

My only message is this: "We must also call out protesters when they misbehave... Protesters can be protested too. Stopping me from doing so is denying my right for free speech."


-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Friday, July 2, 2010 7:54 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Actually I'd be willing to say that driving a regular route isn't done particularly consciously. I've heard many people say that they sometimes find themselves at their destination because their conscious thinking mind has switched off, and habit has taken over. That's not to say they're asleep or driving dangerously, the sub-concious mind can perform tasks as equally well as the concious, otherwise sleep walking wouldn't happen.

You make life and death decisions all the time, and most of the time you're probably not even aware you're doing it.



This isn't necessarily true. I have anxiety disorder, and with it comes a near phobia of cars and driving in cars. When I have the option, I opt to walk, take a bus, or ride a bike, but my job insists that we take the work cars as a matter of professionality and representation. As such, sometimes it's unavoidable, and being that I'm very aware that I could kill someone driving out there, I try to do everything I can to keep myself calm, thinking, and not panicking. I drive in the lane nearest the curb, whenever possible, so that if I panic, I can pull over, and get out of the car, and try to calm down.

One of my methods to keep myself from panicking is to have a well planned out route in advance, which I have gone over several times in advance on paper, and sometimes even DRIVEN it a couple times in advance, in my free time.

An unexpectedly blocked off route poses a much bigger problem for me than anyone else. It can rattle me. This is partially because I'm not entirely sane, but I'm trying to function normally, as best as I can, in an equally insane world, and get through the day without causing injury to anyone else.

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Friday, July 2, 2010 10:31 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Wow! this is really like watching two groups of distinguished theologians in scholarly discussion over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - with flamethrowers and chainsaws. One group avers it depends on the size of the angels toes, and the other is sure it's based on what type of dance they're doing. Both completely unaware that angels don't even exist.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, July 2, 2010 10:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte, hope you weren't talking to me. I did say "for the most part" and "most people" quite deliberately. I know not everyone is the same, so nothing describes everyone. I've both had the experience of getting somewhere and not remembering getting there (which proves my driving was subconscious) and on the MOTORCYCLE, being almost completely conscious of everything around me and thinking of little if anything else.

So of COURSE it doesn't hold true universally; but for most people, it is the case, I think you'd agree?

My sympathies on AD, it can be a particularly nasty disorder! I've got some OCD, so have always fought to keep from tapping my spare foot in time to the broken line on the road. It doesn't always happen, and doesn't do me any harm to tap to it, I just resent my subconscious brain being in control!

Hmmmm...I just realized when I wrote that, I don't have any problem with tapping when on the motorcycle. Hmmm...maybe the subconscious gets subliminated because I'm CONSCIOUSLY "driving"...

Yes, Geezer, it is humorous when you look at it from that perspective. And it's gone on so LONG! I ceased being part of the debate on the issue itself when I realzed Frem had essentially summed it up, as to neither's rights being greater than the other's. For me, that makes it a matter of priorities and everyone choosing for themselves, end of story.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Friday, July 2, 2010 2:02 PM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
This isn't necessarily true. I have anxiety disorder, and with it comes a near phobia of cars and driving in cars. When I have the option, I opt to walk, take a bus, or ride a bike, but my job insists that we take the work cars as a matter of professionality and representation. As such, sometimes it's unavoidable, and being that I'm very aware that I could kill someone driving out there, I try to do everything I can to keep myself calm, thinking, and not panicking. I drive in the lane nearest the curb, whenever possible, so that if I panic, I can pull over, and get out of the car, and try to calm down.


If you're not comfortable driving, you shouldn't be driving. No ifs or buts, if your job demands you drive and driving isn't an integral part of your job, there should be some recourse for telling them where to go. If it is an integral part of your job, and you are not comfortable driving, you shouldn't have gone for that job.

I'm sorry, but the bottom line for me that is you aren't comfortable driving, there is no excuse for you being on the road.

--------------------------------------------------

If you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear demonic voices. The scary part is that if you play it forwards it installs Windows.

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Friday, July 2, 2010 3:14 PM

BYTEMITE


Perhaps not. There are a lot of things I'm not comfortable with that impact my day to day life.

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Friday, July 2, 2010 9:19 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Wow, this is an astonishly hysterical discussion. People who claim that protestors take away their freedoms because they cause traffic jams. And I thought you guys all claimed to have libertarian beliefs.

Protestors can get annoying, they can disrupt traffic and stick their views in their face. I guess that's the point, really. whether they get you hot under the collar or joining in (as I have done) depends on WHAT they are protesting about.

Over here, you need a permit to protest if you are going to be disrupting traffic otherwise the police will come and drag you away. Proests with permits would normally happen in off peak times and traffic would be diverted. I'm not sure whether you'd get a permit if you were the Nazi party. But I guess if you feel your cause is worth it, you'll risk the force of the law and that is the history of civil disobedience. You stand in front of the armed forces even if they are going to fire on you. You stop tanks by standing in front of them. You clog up city centres and move crowds to government buildings. In this way, many a tyranny has been undone.

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Friday, July 2, 2010 9:31 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER








01.virtualclassroom.org/rights/gandhi/saltmarch.jpg

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Saturday, July 3, 2010 5:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, one more person who sees the actual disproportion of issue as we do. It is amazing, isn't it? That's what's had me shaking my head every day I come back and find the same circular arguments going on. This from Americans, of all people, we who are so famous for our demonstrations and defying the government. It's blown my mind. And yes, we brought up Tienamen Square (and Ghandi) to try and get through about civil disobedience and nonprofit protesting, but it went nowhere.

The process is precisely the same here, permits, etc., and Nazi groups HAVE been given permits to demonstrate. Most places, they TRY to be as tolerant as they can about permits. Of course, some can't or won't get them (the "won'ts" being those who WANT to cause a scene), and if you don't have one, the demonstration's broken up and /or you're hauled off. We tried to bring in the fact that civil rights marches weren't given permits back then, so they were forced to demonstrate without them and get arrested.

None of it got through. That's why I've found it so fascinating, and stand by my belief that there is something else at the bottom of it which I haven't been able to figure out. It's been weird to me, too, especially given this group of people.

Good to hear, Magons.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Saturday, July 3, 2010 6:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahhh, good to see another who has perspective and feels the same as I do. It IS weird, isn't it, Magons?

The process here is the same as yours. Most places, they try to be open-minded about permits, but there are groups who can't/won't get them. The "won'ts" are generally groups who WANT to make trouble, and they get broken up and/or arrested, which apparently is what they want.

We TRIED to bring in Tienamen Square, as well as Ghandi and the civil rights marches, as examples of when the government won't LET you demonstrate, but we were told we were self-agrandizing for the comparison.

It's had me shaking my head for days, too, especially given this group of people. I maintain that there's something else at the root of it, but damned if I could ever figure out what.

Nice to hear from another person who has perspective on the issue, thank you Magons.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off


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Saturday, July 3, 2010 6:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Both sides have been mischaracterizing each other because of a very real disconnect understanding what the other side is saying.

:(

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