Is it cowardice? by 1kiki

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Is it cowardice?

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Sunday, October 24, 2010 10:28
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VIEWED: 1466
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Saturday, October 23, 2010 10:06 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, I was thinking about the US populace and how they respond to economic threat v how the French respond.

The French - they organize, get out in the streets, make a violent fuss if non-violence doesn't work, and do their best to FORCE the government to act to their benefit:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20101019/bs_afp/francestrikepoliticspensio
ns_20101019192950 The latest day of protests, the sixth since September, drew around 1.1 million people onto the streets, police said, slightly fewer than the 1.23 million on the last comparable day, October 12.

Then we have the US. Despite that fact that a 'jobless recovery' was predicted as far back as 2008 as consequence of deregulation and trickle-down economics

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/deep-maybe-long-probably/ In both cases the employment slump went on for a long time after the recession was supposedly over. There’s every reason to think that the same thing will happen this time.

despite the fact that the recovery is benefiting the very rich and the corporations while the average person gets poorer, and poorer

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20101019/cm_huffpost/767734 Thanks to the recession, 2009 was one of the worst years for poverty in America in more than half a century. The total number of Americans living in poverty hit 43.6 million, the highest level in 51 years and the national poverty rate rose to 14.3 percent from 13.2 percent, according to data released last month by the Census Bureau. http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/incpovhlth/2009/index.html All told, one in seven Americans are living in poverty.< http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/huffpost/cm_huffpost/storytext/767734
/38093547/SIG=12ioo6g9n/*http:/www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/29/11-poorest-states-in-the-_n_742967.html>

people in the US seem to being supporting the very same people in government ('conservatives') and the very same policies (deregulation and no government spending) that made them poor in the first place.

So I have to wonder, is it cowardice ?

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 11:51 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

No, it's stupidity.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 12:38 PM

MAL4PREZ

The people of France didn't "force" their government to do jack shit. The legislation to change the retirement age passed yesterday. Amidst all this noise, it passed anyway. Maybe the protests will do something eventually, but it hasn't yet.

In America, we had our own kind of protest in 2008. The voters sent a strong message then, the loudest of which involved stopping those damned wars and shutting down the abuses of the financial district. The politicians didn't listen. And they're paying for it.

Would they listen if we got all mad and started burning cars? Hell no. They'd just arrest us for being hoodlums. And they'd be right to. Burning your neighbor's car because you're mad at the govt is true stupidity.

I think the real answer is to go vote. Keep voting. And if that's not satisfying, quit whining, get off your ass, and run for office.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 2:58 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Here's a novel idea - why not burn THEIR cars ?
Ok, just kidding with that, but it always annoys the piss outta me when wound up people burn the grocery store instead of City Hall, you know ?

As for kickin em out, locally we're pretty quick with a recall in the Townships here, problem is that due to the way the system is set up to keep anyone who could possibly change things OFF the ballot in the first place, it's not likely to have the impact it should cause you just wind up replacing them with another scumbag you've no choice but to vote for just to keep someone worse out of office, the whole system is a freakin joke, and the further up the line you go the worse it gets.

As for running for office, I've had the novel experience of being almost railroaded into local office, only to have folks wanting to wring my neck over the very reforms they supposedly shoved me in that chair to perform - generally a good idea to make really, REALLY sure you both wanna do that, and are willing to deal with the consequences thereof, both officeholder and voter alike, cause when it came clear that cutting out the waste, fraud and graft would also cut off the largess folk around town were GETTING from it, they kinda went ballistic about it - it was only long after I skipped town and their (MUCH lower) tax bill arrived they accepted that it was a good idea, since most folk these days in tight financial times have a hard time lookin past their next paycheck, you know ?

Besides which, in american politics, you kinda HAVE to be some kinda creep to get anything done, cause being all noble and honest and shit will get you steamrollered like Obama or Carter, spinning your wheels against a system that laughs at you cause it certainly doesn't work the way everyone pretends it does.

Yeah, sure, we gotta play the hand we're dealt, but since it's a suckers game with the dealers marked deck, on his table...

We'd be chumps to play it honestly.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

Here's a novel idea - why not burn THEIR cars ?
Ok, just kidding with that, but it always annoys the piss outta me when wound up people burn the grocery store instead of City Hall, you know ?

Y'know, I was going to bring that up, but you're the one always says not to go head-to-head with 'em and end up in a shooting war...

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:39 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Here's a novel idea - why not burn THEIR cars ?
Ok, just kidding with that, but it always annoys the piss outta me when wound up people burn the grocery store instead of City Hall, you know ?

That's exactly what I mean. In the Rodney King riots, folks burnt their own neighborhoods. What the hell good did that do? Just purely stupid.

Quote:
As for kickin em out...

As for running for office...

Besides which, in american politics, you kinda HAVE to be some kinda creep to get anything done...

Hey, I didn't say it's easy, but life is life. There is no such thing as fair, or ideal. We live in the system we have. We can find a way to make use of it, or we can spend our lives wallowing in the shit and generally being useless.

Don't get me wrong - there's people who get stuff done outside the system. You're one of those Frem, and I think that's a necessary thing and I'm grateful for it. But I don't see the grand conspiracy out there running things the way you do. I don't think the people in charge are capable of it. They're too selfish and stupid to pull off such a feat. They're just in charge because most people just don't care enough to do anything about it.

So here we are, the little people living in the reality we have. Best way to change the system? Get in it and game it. Not one in a billion will be able to pull it off in a big way, but if that one in a billion can, it changes the world. As long as folks sit on their sofas and do nothing but bitch at their TVs and bitch on some obscure website, nothing will change.

(Before you hate me for my hypocrisy - yes, I know I fail at my own game. I won't be entering politics. I'm not the one in a billion. Like you, I know my strengths and I focus on those. My effect on the world may be limited, but it isn't 0.)

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 3:59 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I protest every day.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 4:06 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
I don't think the people in charge are capable of it. They're too selfish and stupid to pull off such a feat.

I thank my lucky stars for this, every day, several times a day - they WOULD, if they COULD, but their very nature sabotages them more effectively than I ever could... Roberta used to say Gods Grace, for me, was the incompetence of my competition, and she maybe had a point.

As for all else, we do what we can - look at the shitstorm that single airline pilot has raised against the TSA - the smallest of our actions CAN have such effects, so you never know when one of those little pebbles might start an avalanche.

But you shouldn't do it at the cost of your own sanity and living well, if you can, if naught else I also serve as an example of what that can DO to you, over time, and one that should be heeded.

Do what you can - all that anyone could ever ask.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 4:15 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
I protest every day.

Protest with less repetition of stupid, overdone, photoshopped pictures and long, pointless rants full of rather pathetically pantomimed antisemitism. Try rationality. You might actually get somewhere.

But I suspect you're not into getting anywhere. You're more out to get hits on the bizarre websites you link to, right? What, you earn a half-cent each hit?

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 4:50 PM

DMAANLILEILTT

Oh, we've noticed.

And if you do something all the time, it loses its grandour.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Saturday, October 23, 2010 5:04 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Woulda been part of the last post, but I hadda run out there and chase off a suspicious vehicle.

Quote:
The plans and schemes of tyrants are broken by many things. They shatter against cliffs of heroic struggle. They rupture on reefs of open resistance. And they are slowly eroded, bit by little bit, on the very beaches where they measure triumph, by countless grains of sand. By the stubborn little decencies of humble little men.

David Drake; From: In the Heart of Darkness
Available via Baen Books.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 2:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
people in the US seem to being supporting the very same people in government

('conservatives') and the very same policies (deregulation and no government spending) that made them poor in the first place.

So I have to wonder, is it cowardice ?

Your assessment of who / what caused the economic down turn has you confused.

You can't honestly say that there was 'NO' gov't spending under Bush and the GOP leadership, when all we've heard is that Obama's spending is no worse than W's ( which is laughable, to say the least )

It was the GOP that pushed for MORE regulation of Fannie and Freddie, and it was the Dems ( Frank, Dodd , et al ) who vigorously opposed such actions.

So, you're wrong on both accounts. Conservatives didn't go for NO regulation or NO spending. Quite the opposite.

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 5:28 AM

KWICKO

Obama has spent nowhere near as much as Bush did. Bush more than tripled the deficit, and more than doubled the debt. In contrast, Obama's deficits have been less than 20% higher than Bush's.

And the conservatives want to add another FOUR TRILLION to the debt with tax cuts for the very richest of Americans, who need those tax cuts the least.

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 5:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Yes, the French Parliament passed the bill anyway. But the thing about an organized and energized population is that if something is important enough on the whole, they will not let it go. It doesn't go away. It comes back, comes back, comes back, until, eventually, it gets fixed. That's the thing about populations with the power of the vote - both the French and the US - eventually, over time, they DO get the government they deserve.

And considering what they have (one of the highest standards of living in the world), and what we have (record poverty levels), I still wonder - what is the difference between them, and us? And the most salient difference I can point to is the difference in how they, and we, react to economic crisis. They activate and demand in groups, we cower and beg individually.

Our slogans today are: government- BAD, job creation, unemployment benefits, social security, individual benefits - BAD, business - GOOD. The very things that got us in this mess. We are kissing the boots that kick us.

And why is that? What causes that? Humans are not rational. Unless you are a sociopath, your actions are driven by emotion. What is the driving emotion in the US population? Is it cowardice?

Rap - as I recall weren't you the one who claimed Bush wasn't increasing the deficit with his spending? Weren't you the one who didn't care about Bush deregulating BANKS and PRIVATE LOAN INSTITUTIONS, and about keeping the States Attorney Generals (49 of 50) from going after banks and loan institutions for making fraudulent home loans? (Not Fannie and Freddie, BANKS and LOAN INSTITUTIONS.) Weren't you the one who denied the fact that Fannie and Freddie in actual reality (and not in RapWorld) don't MAKE loans and therefore didn't CAUSE the crisis?

It seems you are not only delusional about facts but about your own statements.

BTW, I understand that you've recently become religious, too. I guess it was only a matter of time before you fused completely with your masters.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:21 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:

Kwicko wrote:
Sunday, October 24, 2010 05:28
Obama has spent nowhere near as much as Bush did

Complete nonsense.

John Merline of AOL researched the question of whether the fix we're in is Bush's fault or Obama's fault. He found "the answer is both, but not to an equal degree."

The Congressional Budget Office projects spending and revenue 10 years out into the future. Bush's last budget produced very small deficits between 2011 and 2018. The CBO projected a balanced budget in 2012 and again in 2018 on Bush's path.

That, of course, came before we knew how long and deep the recession was going to be. So the CBO now estimates revenues at $2.2 trillion lower over the next eight years. If you want to blame Bush's economic policies for that drop-off in revenue, then fine. But it's not the revenue shortfall that's driving the big deficit and debt under Obama and Reid's watch. It is the wildly uncontrolled spending.

According to the CBO, as reported by Merline:
"Between 2011 and 2018, Obama would spend $4.9 trillion more than Bush had planned. Keep in mind that this extra spending is after the economic stimulus has been almost entirely exhausted. "In other words, if Obama had simply kept Bush's spending policies in place, federal deficits over the next eight years would be 60 percent lower. In 2018, we'd have a deficit of just $188 billion, instead of the projected $996 billion under Obama's budget."
Therefore, Merline concluded, Bush shares in the blame, but "the majority of the blame belongs with Obama for putting the government on a far higher spending path." http://www.aolnews.com/opinion/article/opinion-whos-really-to-blame-fo
r-monster-deficits/19656330

And FYI, tax cuts don't add to the cost of gov't - at all Excess spending does, and Obama is spending us into oblivion.

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:34 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
And considering what they have (one of the highest standards of living in the world), and what we have (record poverty levels), I still wonder - what is the difference between them, and us?

Imperialism.

All those wars are a real money sink, plus there's certain tiers of the population who want those wars who are also able to rake in money and benefits over them and take money out of general circulation.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:49 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Rap

You are repeating the same fallacy you stated in the past. Bush didn't spend IN THE BUDGET. Therefore, his spending (which you now seem to claim DIDN'T happen - you really need to get your story straight) wasn't reflected IN THE BUDGET. He spent by putting everything - including the Afghanistan and Iraq wars - under the 'emergency spending bill' which was paid for by bonds - which were bought by the Chinese. And which will come due soon - starting with the Obama administration. Therefore, Obama has the task of paying off the bonds - in the budget - on Bush's spending - which was off the budget.

You seem to be saying that if you spend on credit, you haven't really spent, even though you have run up a debt. Is that what you are claiming?

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:52 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

But why are we putting up with it?

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 6:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Once again, the convenient fact being ignored is that Bush put the country in such a deep hole and got us so close to an official "depression" that it takes enormous spending just to get us OUT of that hole. Get someone to analyze THAT and I'll take it seriously.

Bush's deficit came from tax cuts to the rich, starting an expensive, unnecessary invasion of a sovereign nation, and more. Obama gets blamed for trying to get us out of it, and his "projected" deficit means nothing until it came to pass. Betcha Bush's "projected" numbers looked real rosy at the time...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 7:01 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Kwicko wrote:
Sunday, October 24, 2010 05:28
Obama has spent nowhere near as much as Bush did

Complete nonsense.

John Merline of AOL researched the question of whether the fix we're in is Bush's fault or Obama's fault. He found "the answer is both, but not to an equal degree."

The Congressional Budget Office projects spending and revenue 10 years out into the future. Bush's last budget produced very small deficits between 2011 and 2018. The CBO projected a balanced budget in 2012 and again in 2018 on Bush's path.

That, of course, came before we knew how long and deep the recession was going to be. So the CBO now estimates revenues at $2.2 trillion lower over the next eight years. If you want to blame Bush's economic policies for that drop-off in revenue, then fine. But it's not the revenue shortfall that's driving the big deficit and debt under Obama and Reid's watch. It is the wildly uncontrolled spending.

According to the CBO, as reported by Merline:
"Between 2011 and 2018, Obama would spend $4.9 trillion more than Bush had planned. Keep in mind that this extra spending is after the economic stimulus has been almost entirely exhausted. "In other words, if Obama had simply kept Bush's spending policies in place, federal deficits over the next eight years would be 60 percent lower. In 2018, we'd have a deficit of just $188 billion, instead of the projected $996 billion under Obama's budget."
Therefore, Merline concluded, Bush shares in the blame, but "the majority of the blame belongs with Obama for putting the government on a far higher spending path." http://www.aolnews.com/opinion/article/opinion-whos-really-to-blame-fo
r-monster-deficits/19656330

And FYI, tax cuts don't add to the cost of gov't - at all Excess spending does, and Obama is spending us into oblivion.

"The modern definition of 'racist' is someone who is winning an argument with a liberal."

All lies. Complete balderdash, as is everything you've ever said.

Bush walked into his sElected office with a budget surplus, and left with a deficit of over $1.2 trillion, just in his last year. His presidency was one long stretch of increasing spending at record levels.

And now you're claiming that money that HASN'T been spent by Obama HAS been, because you're that desperate. Even *IF* Obama's spending would add $4.9 trillion to the debt, that would be less than Bush added to the debt.

You seem to think that if you don't pay for it, you didn't spend it. Bush put us into the ditch with his wasteful ways, and you're blaming Obama for having to pay off Bush's gambling debts. "Hey, I left you over $10 trillion in debt, but don't go spending anything! And you can't raise taxes or let the tax cuts I *DESIGNED* to expire, expire!"

The modern definition of "socialist" is anyone who's winning an argument against a tea-bagger.

AURaptor's Greatest Hits:

Friday, September 24, 2010
I hate Obama's America. You're damn right about that.

Friday, May 28, 2010 - 18:26 To President Obama:
Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar.
Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.
... go fuck yourself, Mr. President.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 7:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

More than imperialism, Byte. It's the culture which allows the imperialism which is at fault.

Americans, by and large, are highly propagandized and are typically rather slavish about following opinions given to them by authorities (those who are richer or more powerful)

For example, Americans are more religious than almost any other nation (It's difficult to find comprehensive lists, but most people in the USA believe - for example- they have a personal angel who helps them in times of trouble. Easier to find the inverse: The % atheists in the USA is right there with Mongolia, Portugal, Albania, Argentina, Kyrgyzstan, Dominican Republic, and (possibly) Cuba.

www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

Americans tend to buy by brand more than Europeans, who tend to buy by specification. Americans are also more influenced by advertising. (I don't have a website; this was in a book.)

Americans tend to respond by adhering to authority when frightened. (Some would call it bootlicking). In other words, although people in the United States CLAIM to be freer thinkers and highly individual, there are more authoritarians* here than in Europe.

When fearful (current recession, 9-11) people in the United States tend to cling to those they feel are IN AUTHORITY. In our case, it is corporations and right-wing politicians.

*Authoritarian traits:
Authoritarian submission — a high degree of submissiveness to the authorities who are perceived to be established and legitimate in the society in which one lives.

Authoritarian aggression — a general aggressiveness directed against deviants, outgroups, and other people that are perceived to be targets according to established authorities.

Conventionalism — a high degree of adherence to the traditions and social norms that are perceived to be endorsed by society and its established authorities, and a belief that others in one's society should also be required to adhere to these norms

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 7:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, I don't suppose it helps to bring the REAL CBO projections to the table, does it? 'Cause I know the last five times I brought the REAL Federal Revenues to the table (to counter Rappy's idiotic delusion that the Bush tax cuts raised revenues) it didn't make a dent.

www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9957/01-07-Outlook.pdf

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 7:46 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Well, Rap was mixing up federal budget projections with total federal spending and revenues - but I thought that might be too complicated to pursue with him.

Thanks however, for bringing real facts into the discussion.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:09 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

But enough about Rap and his delusions -

I'm still wondering why we have what we have. We have gotten, on the whole and over time, what we have caused. Can it be that we really want this? Do we want something else more than we want good lives? Or do we fear something more than we want a better future?

What, exactly, is driving us?

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:29 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
But why are we putting up with it?

Propaganda campaigns. And the ones who do question/ resist OPENLY find out just how well equipped the US national guard is.

So, I wouldn't say it's COWARDICE, it's just that there aren't many people who figure out the game and THEN try to do something... Or in my case, know what to do, because they prevent us from learning how.

I'm trying to learn though. Frem is a good source of information in that regard. In a couple years, I might have enough money saved up that I can work on cutting societal ties and establishing a safe house.

I want a secure home base before I start trying to modify my community on a larger level. Then I think the place to start is to try to find and expose corrupt political influences.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:34 AM

BYTEMITE

Sig: Yeah, that's accurate. Though I'm not sure you can blame the average person even if they believe the imperialism enabling stuff, they don't know any better. That's what propaganda is SUPPOSED to do. So victims falling prey to propaganda is still the fault of the people who are so good at telling them what to do.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 8:41 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Here's a British perspective, the correspondent based in France was based in the U.S up until recently, and describes his 'culture shock':

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/91188
69.stm

To give my own answer to the thread's question. Not cowardice - 'ideology' I would say. People in the U.S. are ideologically opposed to the idea of government playing a role in making society equal. And the natural, capitalistic trend moves things in the other direction, so...

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, October 24, 2010 10:28 AM

DREAMTROVE

It's not cowardice, it's a difference in media coverage. Americans go out and are ready for revolution to oppose economic oppression, whether it's the FED or the WTO, G20... but don't expect MSM to every let you know that.

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