Forgiveness and Consequences within Literature by Fremdfirma

Related note: S'why I decided I liked Malcom Reynolds - when faced with that choice, when Crow was kneeling there throwing threats, he *didn't* forgive and forget, DID NOT let him walk away.

Course, it wouldn't have mattered much if he had, but sure as shit CROW wasn't a problem anymore, yes ?

-f

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Friday, January 7, 2011 2:32 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Related note: S'why I decided I liked Malcom Reynolds - when faced with that choice, when Crow was kneeling there throwing threats, he *didn't* forgive and forget, DID NOT let him walk away.

Course, it wouldn't have mattered much if he had, but sure as shit CROW wasn't a problem anymore, yes ?

-f

That's why we love Firefly. For once, we got something in a story (on TV no less) that wasn't about arresting bad guys and leading them away in handcuffs, as if that was the ultimate solution for evil.

What you're talking about, this is something that is appreciated by war veterans more than anyone, people who were/are willing to deal out consequences. And you don't have to be in a govt sanctioned war to be a war veteran.

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 6:18 AM

CANTTAKESKY

So Frem, I read this and thought of this thread.

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/notes-from-a-young-america
n-in-congo-rape-continues/

We can speculate about the various causes of epidemic rape, but it comes down to this: no consequences whatsoever.

These guys need some violence done to them. The Bible is a bit fuzzy on kneecaps, kay?

(All right, I'm a bad pacifist.)

Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
------
Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 10:04 AM

I actually think that fiction, even LoTR is not forgiving *enough*.

The thing is, the evil is evil through and through, and is never allowed to redeem or atone.

The problem with most stories and forgiveness is that, and this goes back to the coded messages you were saying earlier that all stories have, is that they are *making* the point to you that forgiveness is bad.

But the mistake these characters are really making is in forgiving those who have not yet atoned. This is done as a literary device to convince you that evil must be destroyed, and that evil is irredeemable.

Like in Avatar TLAB..

Select to view spoiler:

...you could easily construct a story where the characters are, like Zuko, forgiven, but only, like Zuko, *after* they have atoned, and EVEN THEN with a great deal of hesitation.

Redemption is not a bad story theme, it's that the forgiveness examples you're talking about have no redemption in them, they're just stupidly forgiving intrinsic evil.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 10:15 AM

USBROWNCOAT

This place has gone to hell. Shouldn't this thread be in talk story? My heart pines for the good 'ole days when RWED was relevant. Shame on you cowards. With all that is going on in the world you guys are discussing LotR, flaming each other, and being d'bags.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 1:14 PM

I'm not sure that Gollum was forgiven, they just pitied him and didn't kill him. For Frodo I'm sure it was the terrible realisation about how he and Gollum were so alike, both hobbit like, both ring bearers, both damaged. It was like looking down the face of the future. I'm not sure that Frodo could kill Gollum, and gandalf, well he had some foresight and envisaged that gollum had some part to play in the destruction of the ring.

Frem, to not kill, to kill, whichever way you decide will have consequences. Machiavelli oulined the consequences of decisions of power centuries ago. You'd have to make the choice about what you could live with.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 1:36 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

In my opinion you nailed it, Magons. I never saw where Smeagol was "pardoned", just allowed to live out of pity, and in the end destroyed.

Saruman wasn't a further danger, his power was diminished and he didn't have Sauron propping up that power anymore either. Ents are kind critters, I wouldn't have expected Treebeard to do otherwise...they're definitely "isolationists" obviously.

Letting Sauron walk and leaving the Ring with Isuldur was pretty stupid, I grant you, but without some kind of back-story, it wouldn't be as interesting, would it? "Sauron dropped this ring once, and after a long time, a hobbit-like critter found it". Borrrrring. You need heroics and betrayal and courage and all that shit.

It was, remember, begun as a simplistic tale by Tolkien for his CHILDREN, and children's stories almost invariably wrap around good stuff, parables, teaching tools, whatever. I don't think it was aimed at adults intentionally, some of us just loved it for what it was anyway. It's a fantasy, y'know?

Bear in mind that's also a world in which we would be completely alienated and confused, what with all the magic and sorcery and shit going on. I'm not sure I'd want to have the power over life and death there, given I don't know what powers anyone had or what the result might be.

I also got the feeling there was usually a lot of "hands off" mentality, that each kingdom kinda had it's own little world and they didn't cross over much. Just a thought.

And finally, yes, this probably does belong in Talk Story. I'm not that picky; I'd like to see more "real world events" of a nonpolitical-rant nature, and more real WORLD events, and less bullshit, but stuff gets put up here which probably shoulod belong more in Talk Story, I just don't think it's that important.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, January 7, 2011 2:13 PM

WHOZIT

Did any of you guys see "Jersey Shore" last night

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Friday, January 7, 2011 2:45 PM

Actually my point is that we have, quite deliberately, been SOLD a "Forgive and Forget" meme, overall, in literature and media...

By folk who *exploit* that in order to continue their transgressions against us.

Not that I think Tolkein did so deliberately, he actually had a conscientious reason for it, but I have also provided more than a few examples that can be suspected to be, or rather downright were, deliberate.

And recently it's been preying on my mind how falling into that myth, handing out the free pass, has bitten us on the ass so tremendously often lately that it concerns me greatly just what it'd take for someone, anyone, to hold the bastards in power responsible for any-bloody-thing.

How many of the former administration have been punished, held responsible, accountable, or IN ANY WAY suffered ANY negative consequence for their deeds ?
Few, if any.

Bankers and Financiers ?
Few, if any.

The list goes on and on, and when I look at the root of the social structure which hands them such a free pass, what I find is that concept of forgive and forget, and many instances which seem either contrived or deliberate, in efforts to "sell" a bill of goods to us that has, to me, a distinctly fishy aroma.

Of course, it's not as bad as the days of the Hays Code, and the CCA, but the subtle manipulation is still there, IMHO, perpetuated often unknowingly by folks who have convinced themselves via "buying" that bill of goods that the world works a certain way despite consistent and contrary evidence abundant.

Very difficult for me to get across the point I wish to make, but I sincerely hope I did, just now.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 3:39 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

I'm a "forgive but not forget" kind of guy myself. Punishing what we think of as evil won't undo what's already been done, and I believe everyone deserves a shot at atonement and redemption. That doesn't mean you have to just let them do more evil unopposed, by all means keep your guard up. But if you kill them, how will they ever redeem themselves?

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Friday, January 7, 2011 4:02 PM

You know its funny but I don't see that as the dominant paradigm, although I've seen it play out in some movies.

I see that we are conditioned to blame, to seek revenge and conversley, to not take personal responsibility for our own actions. Our whole justice system reeks of this sort of mentality. The world reeks of this mentality. Hollywood movies are more likely to blow away the bad guys without much thought of forgiveness.

To my mind, forgiveness should only really take place when a perpetrator has accepted responsibility for his actions and is truly sorry.

Taking responsibiliy, forgiveness, or at the least, the capacity to move on without the need for revenge is really the only way to halt the conflict cycle. Without these things, it just goes on and on, generation after generation feeling the victim and seeking revenge.

Forgiveness, in my experience, is something you do for yourself, as a prevention for the great gaping wounds that are caused by the need for revenge. What the other person does in response is really neither here nor there.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 4:20 PM

Frem nailed it.

True, the narrative isn't sold in the same way as in the days of Willie Hays, rather, it has become more insidious: Those who continue the myths of the memes do so because their either believe themselves or because they never thought about it.

But there's another side to the story:

We're also sold a line that evil is irredeemable. Or worse, irreconcilable. The only mechanism by which evil is ever redeemed in mainstream fiction is by flipping over a talisman card that says "You are now GOOD."

It just doesn't work like that. You must come to terms with your nemeses, and realize that they to exist and serve a cause. It is not the person who is evil, but the action, and the definition of evil is relative.

Evil is the absence of good, and the clearer you define good, the clearer evil will be for you. Ultimately, you can in so doing, define the entire world as evil by distilling your vision of good to an absolute purity.

This is basically what happened to Robespierre. So, Robespierre was evil, right? But what made him evil? The pursuit of good. It's largely, and I won't say exclusively, but largely the motive behind the evils we are faced with today: They so deeply believe in the good which they are pursuing and so deeply in the evil that will result if they fail, that in a Machiavellian way, any action is acceptable to them to achieve that good and avoid that evil.

When you deny the existence of evil, then the world becomes very grey. A very very dark grey at times, but very grey indeed. Most people cannot handle the complexity of a world in which good and evil, right and wrong, are not clearly defined, so they opt for a world of black and white when it presents itself, and so they easily fall into the trap that is set for them by our collective media culture.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 6:28 PM

Some other storylines which are predominant in American films

-if you have a good heart you will succeed in life, no matter how big a moron you are (Forest Gump)
- good will always triumph over evil (Star Wars and the rest)
-technology will undo mankind (Terminator films)
-people with accents are always bad/and or untrustworthy (all Hollywood films)

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Friday, January 7, 2011 6:38 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Saruman wasn't a further danger,"

Hello,

I wanted to comment on this. The final chapters of the Lord of the Rings saga prove that Saruman continued to be a danger. Ostensibly powerless, he still managed to virtually enslave an entire population.

If he had continued to live after that, if Grima hadn't offed him, he *still* would have had that power. The power of an evil and clever man.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Friday, January 7, 2011 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Some other storylines which are predominant in American films

-if you have a good heart you will succeed in life, no matter how big a moron you are (Forest Gump)
- good will always triumph over evil (Star Wars and the rest)
-technology will undo mankind (Terminator films)
-people with accents are always bad/and or untrustworthy (all Hollywood films)

Yes to all of this. Also, the guy who is pure of heart will get the money and the girl, these are items of equal importance, and both are necessary for you to be considered of value.

Many many others

Anthony,

Yes, Saruman is much more of a threat in the books than in the movie. Jackson made some comment about the whole imprisoning him, letting him go, hunting him down again and imprisoning him again thing was a long waste of time in and already long story that served only to make our characters look dumb,

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Friday, January 7, 2011 7:07 PM

I was sad they skipped the scouring of the shire, I thought that was an important part of the plot in the book.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 4:24 AM

Jackson gave sone reason for skipping it, but I don't recall. I think it had something to do with characters motivations, they seem more selfish if they're defending themselves, but it might also be a good message to send that war *could*reach home, but then again, maybe not, since that might embolden the idea that we *must* fight this all consuming evil,which our masters will translated into Germany, Japan, Iraq, China, wherever.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 10:10 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
I'm a "forgive but not forget" kind of guy myself. Punishing what we think of as evil won't undo what's already been done, and I believe everyone deserves a shot at atonement and redemption. That doesn't mean you have to just let them do more evil unopposed, by all means keep your guard up. But if you kill them, how will they ever redeem themselves?

Yup. I’m often told I’m naïve because I tend to take people at their word until they prove otherwise. After that I view them with more suspicion, but continue to give them a certain amount of slack until their behavior repeats itself. I’m quite content with that; rarely have I been actually HARMED by anyone lying to me or taking advantage of me; but to mistrust all would mean I’d miss out on so many good people, that I prefer the former.

Quote:
I see that we are conditioned to blame, to seek revenge and conversley, to not take personal responsibility for our own actions. Our whole justice system reeks of this sort of mentality. The world reeks of this mentality. Hollywood movies are more likely to blow away the bad guys without much thought of forgiveness.

To my mind, forgiveness should only really take place when a perpetrator has accepted responsibility for his actions and is truly sorry.

Taking responsibiliy, forgiveness, or at the least, the capacity to move on without the need for revenge is really the only way to halt the conflict cycle. Without these things, it just goes on and on, generation after generation feeling the victim and seeking revenge.

Forgiveness, in my experience, is something you do for yourself, as a prevention for the great gaping wounds that are caused by the need for revenge. What the other person does in response is really neither here nor there.

Oh, well SAID Magons! Speaks for me too. Where Frem sees what he describes, I see differently. Much of entertainment is geared toward “teaching”, as it has been throughout history. In that respect, there’s some validity to his view. But I think teaching of forgiveness is a good thing, given as you said, much of the world NOW is geared toward negative responses rather than positive ones.

But I do have to take issue with forgiveness taking place when the perp has accepted responsibility. I’ve run into too many situations where the per takes responsibility, but can’t help themselves from acting the same yet again and again. For me, it’s more a matter of ACCEPTANCE...accepting that some can’t help but be who they are and are incapable of changing, acceptance that some will take advantage because their supposed “regret” is actually just an automatic response to get past whatever they did...just like Kochak, our little hellion husky. She’s always OVERLY regretful, as huskies frequently are, “apologizing” and asking forgiveness...but she’ll do it again, five minutes later.

DT, I agree with the irredeemable aspect. It’s often noted that the “bad guy”, or someone who does something bad, may be redeemed but still has to die in the book/movie/whatever. Once it was pointed out to me I recognized it over and over, and now KNOW the guy who did something bad may do something to redeem himself later in the story, but will still pay the price.

Quote:
It is not the person who is evil, but the action, and the definition of evil is relative.

Bang on with that one. Among the mental illness community, we try to remember and tell each other “Any feelings are valid; it’s what you DO with those feelings that counts”.

Quote:
Evil is the absence of good, and the clearer you define good, the clearer evil will be for you. Ultimately, you can in so doing, define the entire world as evil by distilling your vision of good to an absolute purity

Hate to say it, but I will anyway: “Gee that sounds like Wulf”.

Quote:
They so deeply believe in the good which they are pursuing and so deeply in the evil that will result if they fail, that in a Machiavellian way, any action is acceptable to them to achieve that good and avoid that evil.

Excellently put; goes to the old saying that the most dangerous person is the “true believer”, and is so well illustrated on every side by extremists.

Quote:
Most people cannot handle the complexity of a world in which good and evil, right and wrong, are not clearly defined, so they opt for a world of black and white when it presents itself, and so they easily fall into the trap that is set for them by our collective media culture.

Sorry, but gain: Sounds just like Wulf. And that’s the problem I used to keep trying to get through, that it’s not a black-and-white world...I gave up on getting that through a long time ago, I just mention it now and again with no expectations.

Magons, I disagree with your last point. In many films, people with accents are portrayed positively...just look at Meryl Streep movies!

Yup, Anthony, the power of an evil and clever man. But who’s to say he wouldn’t have been less so, or even ended up impotent, without Sauron’s backing and power? I take your point, but I’m more willing to look at the grays of it. Remember Wormtongue was rendered powerless when his illusions were broken...he wasn’t any Saruman, certainly, but I’m willing to accept that we’ll never know. Certainly there were many things left out of the movie, some I regret, and the black-and-white of Saurman’s ending didn’t seem right to me. Not that the way Tolkien handled it in the book was much better...

And yes, it was pretty Hollywoodized to leave out what happened to the Shire, but that’s pretty predictable; Hollywood has grown up in some ways when it comes to a gray world, but in other ways it wants things wrapped up all neat and pretty, still. On the other hand; good point DT. Given Hollywood is one of our best propaganda tools, I don’t mind that message not being offered.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:09 AM

Niki

Give Wulf a chance, he might surprise you. Then again, he may not. But there's a reason why people his age aren't allowed to be president. They still have a lot to learn about politics.

I actually agree with Magon about the accents. It's not universal, but there's a specific accent slant, which is German-to-Russian, or some slavic in between, Serb or some such, and occasionally middle eastern, which, particularly in men, means the character is 90%+ to be evil, unless everyone in the film, or nearly so, has the accent.

I concur on characters who cross what my sister calls "the irrevocable damage line." She says a character who either commits an act of evil, or is physically damaged in a way which cannot be undone, is dead by the end of the film. (Exception: Felix Lighter.) But generally speaking it's true, and I guess James Bond isn't American.

Often the villain will turn good, and then redeem himself, and then die anyway, because he had done evil.

Seldom is the perceived evil recognized as a difference and then the characters are allowed to proceed.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 11:19 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

That's why the Operative is such an interesting character. He's done tremendously evil things but is he really evil? By the end of the film he has realized the error of his ways, but doesn't die because of it, and I can't help bu wonder what happens next? I'd love to see his story continued in some form or another. We don't often see a character survive something like that.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:00 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"But who’s to say he wouldn’t have been less so, or even ended up impotent, without Sauron’s backing and power?"

Hello Niki,

Saruman's activities in the Shire took place utterly absent Sauron's backing and power. That was, I believe, the point of the passage. The entire final episode with Saruman in the Shire was after Sauron and the One Ring were done for.

"Remember Wormtongue was rendered powerless when his illusions were broken"

Wormtongue murdered a man. Hence, he was not quite powerless to perform evil.

At the very least, Tolkien's final chapters illustrate the need for a prison. ;-)

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:02 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Happy,

I expect the Operative will either be killed, or will commit suicide shortly after the events of Serenity.

In fact, I rather expect the latter. When someone has failed as thoroughly as he has, what other choice is open to him? ;-)

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:05 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello Frem,

One of the most interesting studies of forgiveness and consequences I have seen in modern fiction is in the sci-fi show Babylon 5.

If you have not seen it, I recommend it. It is a dark sea of heroes who become villains, villains who become heroes, and everybody paying the price for everything they have ever done. Even the good things.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:10 PM

BYTEMITE

Quote:

Give Wulf a chance, he might surprise you. Then again, he may not. But there's a reason why people his age aren't allowed to be president. They still have a lot to learn about politics.

I don't think it's the age. I think I'm younger than Wulf. I think it's more a problem of the people who don't want to be President versus most of the people who do.

Slavics, sadly they're STILL discriminated against. Roma in Britian. Very sad.

As for the rest, tvtropes. And the messages people who control the stories want us to learn.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:14 PM

Quote:
But I do have to take issue with forgiveness taking place when the perp has accepted responsibility. I’ve run into too many situations where the per takes responsibility, but can’t help themselves from acting the same yet again and again. For me, it’s more a matter of ACCEPTANCE...accepting that some can’t help but be who they are and are incapable of changing, acceptance that some will take advantage because their supposed “regret” is actually just an automatic response to get past whatever they did...just like Kochak, our little hellion husky. She’s always OVERLY regretful, as huskies frequently are, “apologizing” and asking forgiveness...but she’ll do it again, five minutes later.

Yeah, good point niki. Part of taking responsibility is agreeing to undertake behaviour change. That's why apologies are often so poorly done. The flippant 'sorry' when you don't mean it doesn'r cut it. That's why I am quite careful about my apologies. I have to really mean it, believe that I have done something wrong and endeavour to change. I've learnt as I have gotten older to not throw that word about, nor to accept it when it is not said in a meaningul way. My son is a great one for saying sorry in the most uncontrite and sarcastic way, and it doesn't get him anywhere with me.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:46 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

DT: you nailed it with "Often the villain will turn good, and then redeem himself, and then die anyway, because he had done evil.{

I don't think it's the age, either, I think it's mindset, among other factors. I know his background has something to do with it, and probably those he hangs around with. But it's SO set, it's not just age. And he has rarely surprised me up to this point, don't think I'll hold my breath.

As to accents; yet notice how POSITIVELY those with British accents are portrayed, huh? Obviously (to me) our connection to same, but yes, I'll agree a lot of countries' accents get portrayed as bad guys, especially those you mentioned.

Anthony...sigh...I accept your point. There was no redemption for Saruman. I disagree about prisons, tho', just on general principles.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 12:50 PM

I don't know, Niki. A lot of villians or morally ambigiuous people have british accents. I was sort of being facetious about the accent thing, but it's often true.

Gaius Baltar in Battlestar Galactica
The Operative in Serenity

actors like Alan Rickman, sean Bean and Gary Oldman have made their living playing villians in american movies

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 1:17 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Magons; forgot to add to my last one that your post was most excellent and I agreed.

As to accents; sure, Brits have been portrayed as bad guys too, but I'd bet dollrs to donuts they're portrayed MORE as good guys than as bad guys.

Alan Rickman...I adore him! I fell in love in, I think it was "Ladyhawke", because of his wonderful ability to play comedy, and have been in love ever since

Admittedly, I am a sucker for a British or Australian accent, but that's just me.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 1:29 PM

I love Rickman too. Some of the films he has been amazing in are: An Awfully Big Adventure; Galaxy Quest; Truly, Madly, Deeply.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 1:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Give Wulf a chance, he might surprise you. Then again, he may not. But there's a reason why people his age aren't allowed to be president. They still have a lot to learn about politics.

I don't think it's the age. I think I'm younger than Wulf. I think it's more a problem of the people who don't want to be President versus most of the people who do.

Slavics, sadly they're STILL discriminated against. Roma in Britian. Very sad.

As for the rest, tvtropes. And the messages people who control the stories want us to learn.

Romani are technically aryan and not slavic, which means that they are related to east indians and not to germans, who were, as it turns out, never aryans.

But yes, they are discriminated against. It's worse in France, where they are forcibly deported.

Even worse in much of eastern europe.

Ironically, the major discriminated against group in the UK are the Pakistanis, which has been true for many years. (They are of course relatives of the Roma, but this isn't the reason.) Anyone remember the Beatles' "Get Back"? Anyone ever heard the original recording?

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 1:59 PM

Unfortunatly a lot of the Romany are involved in criminal activities in Europe, which never really adds to their popularity.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:29 PM

Sorry for not gettin back to this earlier, had to deal with some official dipshits using thinly failed accusations as an excuse to pick my brain about recent hostilities towards public officials.
(not all of which have yet been made public)
I told em if they keep that up imma demand payment, of course they thought money but I won't TAKE their money, otherwise I'd be doin behavior profiling at the airport for three times what I make now, but I don't wear the jackboot, not now, not ever, sorry - imma demand concessions at DTW or just refuse to help em.

Annyhows.

Yes, Magons - you see a lot of the opposite paradigm too, shoot em down without ever determining WHY they chose that course of action, never seek to understand their motivations, which is, IMHO - stupid and wasteful as hell.

Of course, my whole cut-them-down thought wasn't directed at folk who had reasons or motivations beyond screwing others for amusement, gain or power, but rather those specific folk who not only do so, but are wholly unrepentant, either laughing in your face behind a thin and obvious facade of regret, or outright threatening retribution - letting them walk away is a fools bargain even if you have broken their current power base, because if you have not somehow prevented them from rebuilding it, they WILL carry out those threats.
And I don't see trusting in people as a whole to not help them again, cause Rosseau is correct, people are basically decent and a right bastard of the worst order will ALWAYS find a way to exploit that - look how fast americans are joyfully handing the reins of power right back to the same bastards who caused the worst disasters of the freakin past ten years, neh ?

But it is true, once you end a life, there goes any hope of redemption, in most cases restitution, and I do happen to be a bigger fan of restorative justice over retributive - but only where there is hope of it, alas.
Case in point, hard core recidivist child-predators, you really can't let them out, but what earthly good does it do their victims to kill em, either, although I will say to me that is infinately preferable to letting them loose where they can and will continue their predatory behavior...
But then what to do ?
You know, in engineering terms there's something called "test to destruction", where you test a device so intensely to find out about it that you essentially destroy it in the process - and while it would be tremendously immoral to do that to someone who was penitent, Remora(nickname for whatever they're calling the predator supermax these days) holds quite a few who ain't and never will be, and I figure using a pyschological variant of that to figure out how those bastards tick, what creates them, how to protect society from them, would be an act of restorative justice even if they do wind up psychologically destroyed because of it.

I think the myth that everyone can be redeemed, would seek redemption if they could, is damaging - because once certain internal or moral horizons have been crossed, one can never return, even if you did somehow manage to drag them back into the light, the guilt and sorrow from their own deeds would break them all over again, unless you somehow had a way to wipe their memory of it, and at that point are they even the same person any more ?

Ellis Amdur has oft wrestled with the same question, here.
Setsuninto--Katsujinken
The sword that takes life, the sword that gives life
http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur3.html

Are there people past redemption ?
Yes, most certainly - and galling as it is to people, who are, as I say, basically decent, failing to recognize that and act appropriately harms us all.
Another problem is who makes that decision, because if it is any but the person rejecting redemption (making so BY that rejection) then you open the process to an even greater level of corruption, as I feel the american justice system has done, what with life-sentencing, which in the end helps no-one.

What concerns me the worst though, is how we're sold a bad bill of goods by our literature and media about how the world works, and people buy into that with disastrous results, because the deeper I investigate this, the more deliberate some of those memes are, often worked into stories where they have no place, or don't even fit - an obvious bit of external jiggery by folk who benefit from those false perceptions.

THAT, concerns me greatly.

In regards to Babylon 5 - Yes, in fact it does a great bit of contrasting, Londo was a right bastard, but not in truth ever even half as wicked as he deliberately put off, while Morden was pretty vile right down to the core, despite his harmless appearance - and yet, as I have discussed here a time or two, the "cause" he worked for was very grey, cause in my sole opinion, the Vorlons were worse in behavior.
(In fact rewatching Bab5 teaches one to despise em, cause knowing certain things ahead of time shines a whole new light on their behavior versus watching in innocent ignorance.)

Also, Jericho is pretty good about that - the only downright villainous character is Goetz, and boy howdy does not capping him come with consequences, Jonah Prowse is not particularly nice despite having SOME positive feeling towards the community, and Phil Constantino is more desperate than evil, not to mention some of his ire towards Jericho stems directly from his towns suffering at the hands of Goetz BECAUSE Jake didn't take him out when the chance presented itself.
But you can also see, in their treatment of Dale, how otherwise "good" people can in their foolishness, create a person like Goetz, or Jonah Prowse (who I strongly suspect has a history much similar to Dale, and is who and how he is as a result).

It's very, very rare for someone to do evil things "For the Evulz!" - usually they have SOME reason, and understanding it is key to preventing it, one reason I do agree with Magons that cutting them down without even determining the why is foolish and destructive.

As for Wormtongue - I actually wrote a longish post here about his motivations, he wasn't evil, but I can't find it, although here's the short bit I cranked out in another discussion.

Quote:
Lucky you, heh - I prettymuch got the wormtongue thing down better than he ever did, indeed, that's actually my main PC's wallpaper, cause I actually feel quite sympathetic to the poor bastard.

Imagine how it musta been for him, growing up amongst the shockingly racist, intolerant hoorah muscleheads of Rohan (who wouldn't, mind you, be exactly out of place at a Klan rally) being a puny intellectual type and all the while bitterly hated for it, as if he had any particular reason not to sell them out, as if he gave a crap about a one of em except for Eowyn, who was a total bimbo all but unaware that she would never receive not one more ounce of respect than he did by a bunch of goons who were she not the kings daughter, would break her sword and shove her back in the kitchen like a good little girl ?

Who the one friggin time she was ever given an actual position of responsibility, abandons it like a petulant little child, and goes running off all lovesick after a guy who doesn't even like her, who has responsibilities of his own which preclude involvement in her, and he's interested in someone else - and for what, the prophecy said not by the hand of "Man" (as in race of men) would the witch-king fall, and he didn't, for it was a Hobbit that struck him down in a position to be killed, wasn't it now ?

But to his pain, Grima did like the girl, and he was the one guy in Rohan who didn't wanna stuff her back in the kitchen, the one guy who would have let her be herself, and if she wasn't such a stoneheaded, petulant little child cause he wasn't a musclebound bo-hunk prettyboy, thus making her just as bad in her own way as the rest of the rohirrim, she coulda had everything she wanted, but nooo...

Besides which if the King hadn't been such a complete wishy-washy brainless old fool to begin with, Rohan wouldn't have fallen on times bad enough that Wormy felt the *need* to get his hooks in the way he did - at least with Wormy Rohan came first, not someone else's agenda.

And if YOU were the only guy with half a brain amongst a bunch of drunken lout morons wouldn't you have locked up the valuables in your care as well, so as not to have them squandered away on booze and parties ?
Who the hell do you think was balancing the books, Eomer ? HA!

Not to mention only a fool woulda have taken an offer to ride with a thousand guys who's first act upon meeting the enemy would be to plunge a sword into YOUR back, just because they didn't wanna admit to executing folk cause they're total hypocrites.

Then facing an enemy that wasn't exactly any immediate threat to them in a suicidal headlong rush instead of using hit and run tactics to pin them against the walls of Gondor and strike from the flanks while they got properly clobbered, that hoorah charge was an act of pure damned foolishness, and Wormy woulda told em so.

That single tear Wormy sheds on seeing Sarumans army and realizing that smacktalk aside, he really DOES have the means to crush Rohan ?
That was for Eowyn, and no other, cause for all that he hated Rohan, and had much cause to do so, he really did care for her, heaven knows why...

So yeah, the guy gets kind of a bad rap, and I feel for him because of it.

Oh he coulda been redeemed, *IF* he'd ever been offered any that wasn't a prelude to his own pointless execution, if the offer had ever actually been serious - that's the other thing, when you offer redemption to someone with no more veracity than a truly wicked beings "apology" you cannot expect to be taken any more seriously.

Now, Gandalfs offer to Saruman *was* serious, but Saruman was too proud, stubborn and vengeful to take it, I think it was Gandalfs hope that being cooped up in that tower becoming increasingly irrelevant would take its toll on him via his own arrogance, and at some point he would have "offered to assist" in order to be important again, which Gandalf would have accepted graciously, playing Sarumans flaws like a lute - provided no one else got all stupid and mouthy at the wrong time.
Of course, that presumed someone as clever as Saruman was gonna STAY in that tower, and counting on that was idiotic - but Gandalf did have his boneheaded moments, Maia or not, he was as "human" as the rest of us, and fallible.

But still, primarily my interest is in people as a whole being sold a false image of reality, the who and why behind certain intentional or seemingly intentional attempts to do so, and the methodology by which this is done - so that a way can be found to subvert it or at the very least mess with the plans of those who seek to reduce storytelling essentially to propaganda for specific purposes.

In fact, in retrospect, it was in part that problem although I did not see it for what it was at the time, which sent me seeking alternate/foreign media in hopes of something actually entertaining rather than anvilicious and cynical-stupid.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 2:31 PM

Oh, and Re: Accents.

Hell, to this very day german, russian, or eastern european accents are used to project a "sinister" character, case in point Adelai Niska, yes?

Which devolved more or less straight out of during and post WWII propaganda.

-F

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Saturday, January 8, 2011 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Oh, and Re: Accents.

Hell, to this very day german, russian, or eastern european accents are used to project a "sinister" character, case in point Adelai Niska, yes?

Which devolved more or less straight out of during and post WWII propaganda.

-F

Firsties ;)

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Monday, January 10, 2011 8:21 AM