GO-Bag and General Carry by Wulfenstar

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Wallet, keys, Carmex, phone, iPod, hat.

Any one of them can be a weapon. Or if you approach me with a gun and get close, I'll just use yours. ;)

This Space For Rent!

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Friday, January 21, 2011 6:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"I'm not comfortable with people carrying guns at all, but if I visit your neck of the woods, I'll psyche myself up to it."

Magons,

Im not comfortable with people telling me that I should forfeit my families safety on the whims of spoiled, over-privaledged, bitches and assholes living behind guilded walls.

Fuck that. Like I should EVER sacrifice the safety of me and mine so some spoiled people can feel "more comfortable"?

Never in this life.

Show me where I have ever called for any changes to your laws.

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Friday, January 21, 2011 7:26 PM

KANEMAN

Story..." Sometimes a chapstick."

LOL. yeah okay Kwicko....you cock suckers are hilarious....Well, it's true

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 3:53 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-smith-20110120,0,7
874660.column

Now back to the original question. Who here has GO/Bug Out Bags? What do you keep in them?

Not saying the zombies are going to rise tomorrow, but... :)

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 4:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Allow me to note for the record that getting into a debate on statistics is no more useful here than it is concerning climate, and for the same reasons, one of which is *both* "sides" have blown any credibility with constant obfuscation, distortion and omissions bordering on outright lies.

That said, Niki, you are aware the folks handing out the statistics you posted consider a perp shot dead in the commission of a violent crime to be a "victim of gun violence" and add them to the tally, something which bothers me almost as much as Lott admitting he more or less pulled defensive gun use numbers out of his ass....

Like they say, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

I *will* say that having a reputation around here is handy, I was on my way back from the store and this wayne county cop (one I happen to actually know) did a hard (and illegal) U-turn and rolled up on a homeless guy, prolly bent on hassling him, and then spots ME glaring at him from my car on the other side, and simply drives off...
While there's something to be said for being armed as a check against tyranny, in the small scale of things, being a vicious opponent of it can be enough - he *knew* I woulda hauled out a camera or maybe even pulled over and watched.

Oh, and Magons ?

Instead of "nerving yourself up" to do something you do not at all feel comfortable with, I reccommend you simply buddy up with a trustworthy yank who does carry - whether to carry or not is a personal choice, and up to the individual, one I respect, so long as my choice is respected and not infringed or called upon to BE infringed because of what I *might* do, cause that is an ugly, ugly road to travel.

Besides which, allies trump bullets by a large margin, armed or not.

And finally, while I do realize that it's sooo much easier to ignore me completely and argue with idiot-boy cause he's a friggin bonehead with ego issues and tends to run his mouth with his brain stuck in neutral, thus making him a perfect strawman - lemme point out that in such a case it renders even the notion of adding my input kinda...

Pointless.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:02 PM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Any one of them can be a weapon. Or if you approach me with a gun and get close, I'll just use yours. ;)

Funniest thing I've seen posted on this board in a while. Not that I'm looking to mug anyone, but if you try to use my gun on me Kwicko you're going to have to hit me with it. It's going to be empty by the time you get it.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Any one of them can be a weapon. Or if you approach me with a gun and get close, I'll just use yours. ;)

Funniest thing I've seen posted on this board in a while. Not that I'm looking to mug anyone, but if you try to use my gun on me Kwicko you're going to have to hit me with it. It's going to be empty by the time you get it.

Now THAT is funny. As I said, anything can be a weapon. Even your empty gun, once you've wasted all your ammo.

This Space For Rent!

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Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:15 PM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

12 Americans are killed every day in crimes committed by illegal aliens. Does this count?
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=39031

So what you are saying is that it would be better to be killed by an American citizen?

The linked article commented that in the same period less US servicemen were being killed in Iraq. Meaning the US was more dangerous to US citizens than Iraq.

Quote:

Ever been a victim of crime? I've been carjacked. Does that make me "paranoid" or once burned, twice shy?
Quote:

Somewhere where there is regaular carjacking would fit my definition of crime being terribly out of control. I can think of some parts of the world where I would seriously think of taking a weapon if I had to go there - Johanasburg is one of them - notorious for carjacking and murder and rape is kind of a hobby for some.

And in answer to your question, yes I have been a victim of crime. I've been burgarled (3 X)

But burglary occurs when you are out of the house or not actually confronting the burglar. Hardly the same sort of crime when someone who wants your wallet and car sticks a gun in your face, is it?

Kind of disingenuous of you to compare your burglaries with a violent crime where deadly force is being used, isn't it?

As far as regularity of crime is concerned, criminals don't make appointments. When they start, I will stop carrying.

Quote:

Actually, I'm a fat old man who has had his share of scuffling on the ground with someone, doesn't want any more holes poked in my precious anatomy and is impatient with idiots who want what does not belong to them.

You see that's where I lose sympathy a bit with some of the gun carrying stuff. If you are doing it to protect your life because you live in the war zone, fair enough. If you are doing it because someone might nick your wallet, hmmm. Another solution is not to carry anything valuable with you. I walk around with $50 cash max. Anybody wants to mug me, they can have my wallet. I'd rather hand it over and cancel my credit cards than get into a deadly gun fight.

You do realize that someone using a knife or gun to mug you is already committing assault with a deadly weapon, right? That is a felony in every jurisdiction I'm aware of. Using of deadly force in the commission of a crime makes defense from that crime acceptable use of deadly force.

I'm not carrying because someone might take my belongings. I'm carrying because someone might take my life. We Americans don't live in old blimey. We don't hand over our property just because someone demands it of us. We'd better see a credible threat that makes the property not worth keeping in light of that threat. In the presence of that threat I have options with a gun, without one I have no options but surrender and hope that they don't harm or kill me.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:38 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Now THAT is funny. As I said, anything can be a weapon. Even your empty gun, once you've used all your ammo ventilating my K5 zones. Of course I won't have the power to hit you with it. I'll be too busy bleeding out.

FIFY

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Amusing this is still going on; so it is with any “discussion” of guns OR climate change...

Frem,

Quote:
Allow me to note for the record that getting into a debate on statistics is no more useful here than it is concerning climate, and for the same reasons, one of which is *both* "sides" have blown any credibility with constant obfuscation, distortion and omissions bordering on outright lies.

That said, Niki, you are aware the folks handing out the statistics you posted consider a perp shot dead in the commission of a violent crime to be a "victim of gun violence"

Yes on the first; as to the second, anyone who dies by a gun is someone who died by a gun, to me. The number of people who shot someone who was robbing or attacking them is WAY outweighed by those who did the robbing/attacking, so it’s irrelevant, to me.

Yeah, Hardware, I saw that too

Quote:
The linked article commented that in the same period less US servicemen were being killed in Iraq. Meaning the US was more dangerous to US citizens than Iraq.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:42 PM

Quote:
I think, Magons - that the critical difference here is that you think you can trust your protectors, and given you live there and that is your choice, imma hafta give you benefit of the doubt in order to not be unreasonable...

You know I think you have nailed it, frem. But it's not that I have absolute in my government or police force. I know that at times there has been corruption in both - particularly the police force, it's just that I do believe I have more faith in democratic processes than many who visit these boards. You know I also see that democracy has its limits and draw backs, for example I don't think it's a particularly good system for making long term decisions that may be really useful or necessary for a country, simply because they might be unpalatable for an electorate.

But basically I feel that I am much more optimistic than many here and I guess that is based on my life experiences, as theirs are too. I'd rather have that faith in the system than live somewhere with an aggressive, mistrustful and heavily armed population who feel they need to be the ones to uphold the law. It may be that our two realities are very, very different. Maybe, or it just maybe that our perception is where the difference lies.

Quote:
Instead of "nerving yourself up" to do something you do not at all feel comfortable with, I reccommend you simply buddy up with a trustworthy yank who does carry - whether to carry or not is a personal choice, and up to the individual, one I respect, so long as my choice is respected and not infringed or called upon to BE infringed because of what I *might* do, cause that is an ugly, ugly road to travel.

Your country, your choice. I recognise that it would be hard to stuff that genie back in the bottle, even if that was something a lot of people wanted.

I'd not consider carrying if I visit, frem, nor would I feel the need to team up with anyone who does (unless I was visiting bear territory). I've travelled a reasonable amount in my life, some places have been safer than others and I've never armed myself with anything more than the can of hairspray I referred to earlier. I'd just take the normal precautions that I'd take anywhere, get information on places that aren't safe and pretty much avoid them, lock my room and car, and no carry heaps of cash around.

I'd be thinking pretty carefully about which cities I'd like to visit, as most large urban areas are pretty dull in my view, all being fairly similar. I'd have to go to NY, Savannah interests me, as does New Orleans, although I might cross that off the list for safety reasons, San Fransisco. Probably other than these, I'd prefer to see the natural attractions.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 1:55 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

Magons - I second DT's observation that this forum should definitely NOT be used as a general representation of US attitudes for almost everything discussed here. It's extreme, and pretty flaky, and occasionally brilliant imho.

Has anyone else noticed? This is a general observation about conflict, especially political conflict: 99% of the time the 2 sides that end up leading almost any debate will be the most diametrically opposed? It's like a force of nature, like cells dividing. Ironically, because of it the possibility of any resolution that serves either side is zero.
Gun Haters vs Gun Lovers, Dems vs Reps, natural selection, zero resolution, built in Fail.
So, for instance, when some moderates want there to be a steeper hill to climb for gun ownership more akin to getting a driver's license, the debate usually gets derailed by: Yes, that may be reasonable but: "guns don't kill people, people do" and "people without guns can't kill people as easily."
Since the extremes end up driving these debates there's little chance for any intelligent discussion.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:11 PM

geez, it was a pretty flaky premise for discussion anyway. So what if it evolves into something else.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:26 PM

Magons, you don't mind if I ask you about that hairspray you mentioned, do you?

Did you list that because you saw it as a fairly innocuous item, meaning you don't feel the need to arm yourself or defend yourself at all?

Or did you list it because it has some useful but not commonly thought of properties that can make it useful for defense?

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:32 PM

Most likely the second one, Byte.

As I said, anything can be a weapon. Especially the human brain.

Hairspray + lighter = flamethrower.

Hairspray + eyes = poor woman's Mace.

This Space For Rent!

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:34 PM

I carried it for a brief time for defence purposes. I was in my 20's, travelling alone through Europe, in cities that were unfamilar to me. It never made me feel particularly safer, as I said, my main worry was that I would pull it our and spray myself in the face.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:35 PM

Mace is illegal in most places outside of the US, though I did meet some American girls who carried it. You are correct about that being its use.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:36 PM

Well, yes, I would think so too, I mentioned something similar in my first post in this thread. But I wanted to hear from her to be sure.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Mace is illegal in most places outside of the US, though I did meet some American girls who carried it. You are correct about that being its use.

So, JUST the hairspray, or would you have coupled it with something else?

Because the main use of hairpsray-as-defense I can think of, well...

The thought that anyone could consider that option preferable to a gun, considering the damage to hypothetical attacker one is defending themselves from, the concept has me a little thrown. I can only assume you must be intending a very different use from the one I was envisioning.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:50 PM

Well I wasn't going to fix their hair for them.

Hairspray into someones eyes would cause them pain and temporary blindness, much like mace. It simply gives you time to run away.

I never really believed that carrying it would do much good. If I had to be out after dark and alone in a city, I used to adopt an attitude ie not look fragile and vulnerable. I wore doc marten boots for years, wore big coats, swung an umbrella, walked as much like a man as I could. Never had too much trouble.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 2:52 PM

Okay then. With that proposed use of hairspray, there are no inconsistencies.

You're good.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:18 PM

Good lord, what were you imagining?

Btw, it is not that I wouldn't do a would be attacker harm if I could. I'd be prepared to do extreme damage to someone if they tried to harm my son, for example. It's just that I have a belief that in a reasonably functionable society, people shouldn't have to carry firearms to protect themselves. I believe where I live fits 'reasonably functionable', but others here have indicated that where they live does not. I don't know any better, so I'll accept that.

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Sunday, January 23, 2011 5:02 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh yes, that I will give you, being one of the rare few less affected by CS/Oleoresin Capsicum/Mace, I can certainly assure you that a shot of hairspray to the eyes, or even glasses, is at best tremendously disconcerting and at worst wickedly painful - even the part that hits your glasses is a pain in the ass cause it sticks and fuzzes them up.

I dunno about brand-based effectiveness mind you, but I shall certainly vouch for Aqua-net, as an extremely angry ex decided to make her wrath known to me with such, and I've never forgotten it.

-F

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Monday, January 24, 2011 7:45 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Btw, it is not that I wouldn't do a would be attacker harm if I could. I'd be prepared to do extreme damage to someone if they tried to harm my son, for example. It's just that I have a belief that in a reasonably functionable society, people shouldn't have to carry firearms to protect themselves. I believe where I live fits 'reasonably functionable', but others here have indicated that where they live does not. I don't know any better, so I'll accept that."

Do you even realize how insulting that is?

Our society functions just fine. In fact, its the model for most other countries.

Also, I consider a society that expects you to rely on the government (or its employees) for your immediate safety... dysfunctional.

Not to mention, a society that has given up its ability to overthrow its government, should it become tyrannical... sheep-like.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 24, 2011 8:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Btw, it is not that I wouldn't do a would be attacker harm if I could. I'd be prepared to do extreme damage to someone if they tried to harm my son, for example. It's just that I have a belief that in a reasonably functionable society, people shouldn't have to carry firearms to protect themselves. I believe where I live fits 'reasonably functionable', but others here have indicated that where they live does not. I don't know any better, so I'll accept that."

Do you even realize how insulting that is?

Less insulting than feeling that you have to be heavily strapped just to go outside, I'd wager. THAT is insulting, and a clear indication that your "model for most other countries" is an epic fail.

Quote:

Our society functions just fine. In fact, its the model for most other countries.

List them. Name all the countries that are modeled after ours, gun rights and all. I'll bet you a billion dollars it isn't even close to "most" of them.

Quote:

Also, I consider a society that expects you to rely on the government (or its employees) for your immediate safety... dysfunctional.

Heh... Do you have any idea how insulting THAT is, to someone living in another country? ;)

Quote:

Not to mention, a society that has given up its ability to overthrow its government, should it become tyrannical... sheep-like.

So you admit that you're one of the sheeple. After all, you HAVE NOT overthrown your government. You haven't even tried. Ergo, by your own admission, you've given up your "ability" to do so.

So either you DON'T believe that your government is in any way "tyrannical", or you don't believe in your "ability" to overthrow it.

Don't fret; you're in good company. After all, Americans haven't overthrown their government for over 200 years. One might get the impression that they've lost the ability to do so. Some of them tried, once, and failed miserably.

This Space For Rent!

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Monday, January 24, 2011 8:41 AM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Less insulting than feeling that you have to be heavily strapped just to go outside, I'd wager."

I don't HAVE to be, I LIKE to be. Big difference. Some places in America you HAVE to be. Just like any other country.

"So you admit that you're one of the sheeple. After all, you HAVE NOT overthrown your government. You haven't even tried. Ergo, by your own admission, you've given up your "ability" to do so.

So either you DON'T believe that your government is in any way "tyrannical", or you don't believe in your "ability" to overthrow it.

Don't fret; you're in good company. After all, Americans haven't overthrown their government for over 200 years. One might get the impression that they've lost the ability to do so. Some of them tried, once, and failed miserably."

Good grief, this doesnt even make sense.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 24, 2011 9:35 AM

Quote:
Good grief, this doesnt even make sense.

The Civil War? Waco? Battle of Blair Mountain?

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Monday, January 24, 2011 12:00 PM

BTW I think I meant to say functional. Not sure if funcctionable is a word. :oops:

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Btw, it is not that I wouldn't do a would be attacker harm if I could. I'd be prepared to do extreme damage to someone if they tried to harm my son, for example. It's just that I have a belief that in a reasonably functionable society, people shouldn't have to carry firearms to protect themselves. I believe where I live fits 'reasonably functionable', but others here have indicated that where they live does not. I don't know any better, so I'll accept that."

Do you even realize how insulting that is?

You see now I am confused. Everytime I write something about not needing to carry, people on this board shout back at me (metaphorically speaking) about how dangerous it is 'out there' and how people get home invaded, car jacked, followed home from supermarkets, done over by corrupt police. They cite example after example of how bad it is and that is why you need to carry. And I think to myself 'that sounds really lousy, I can see why people might arm themselves'

So you are now saying that you don't carry arms to defend yourself, as there is no need?

Quote:
Not to mention, a society that has given up its ability to overthrow its government, should it become tyrannical... sheep-like.

Again, I am confused. I thought people were carrying weapons to defend themselves against crime. isn't that the case? You don't need to carry to have the ability to defend youself against tyranny.

You demonstrate very clearly the confused thinking around gun ownership, particularly those who demand the right to carry arms.

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Monday, January 24, 2011 12:08 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"You see now I am confused. Everytime I write something about not needing to carry, people on this board shout back at me (metaphorically speaking) about how dangerous it is 'out there' and how people get home invaded, car jacked, followed home from supermarkets, done over by corrupt police. They cite example after example of how bad it is and that is why you need to carry. And I think to myself 'that sounds really lousy, I can see why people might arm themselves'"

Its all about the what-ifs, choice, and the ideaology of the goodness of people.

It might not be a war zone where we (who carry) live, but its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not need it..

Plus, why deny us the choice and the ability to protect ourselves and our neighbors unless...

you think people are not good. And need to be controlled.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 24, 2011 12:11 PM

I think people are basically good and therefore we don't need to arm ourselves in everyday life.

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Monday, January 24, 2011 12:27 PM

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

Thats fine. So do I. But I like to, anyways.

So you are free NOT to be armed, and I'm free to BE armed.

If you don't infringe on my rights, then there is really no issue.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, January 24, 2011 1:36 PM

I don't want to infringe on your rights, I just don't want to live there.

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Monday, January 24, 2011 5:45 PM