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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


You and I have very different ideas about parenting then. I prefer family life where everything is not negotiable with infants, and where parents have authority. I aim for authoritative parenting, which incidentally has an excellent success rate for kids with behaviourable issues.

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Recently acquitted from the hospital, Van Gogh suffered a severe setback in December 1889. Although he had been troubled by mental illness throughout his life, the episodes became more pronounced during his last few years. In some of these periods he was either unwilling or unable to paint, a factor which added to the mounting frustrations of an artist at the peak of his ability. His depression gradually deepened. On 27 July 1890, aged 37, he walked into a field and shot himself in the chest with a revolver. He survived the impact and managed to walk back to the Ravoux Inn. He died there two days later. Theo rushed to be at his side. Theo reported his brother's last words as "La tristesse durera toujours" (the sadness will last forever).[126]

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:


You and I have very different ideas about parenting then. I prefer family life where everything is not negotiable with infants, and where parents have authority. I aim for authoritative parenting, which incidentally has an excellent success rate for kids with behaviourable issues.

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Oh?

"The learning theory suggests that the ODD develops as a response to negative interactions. The techniques used by parents and authority figures on these children bring about the disobedient behavior. The parents are not to blame when this happens. These same techniques work quite well for normal children."

http://addadhdadvances.com/ODD.html

"Oppositional defiant disorder may be related to - the child's temperament and the family's response to that temperament"

http://www.depression-guide.com/oppositional-defiant-disorder.htm

"Family instability, including economic stress, parental mental illness, harshly punitive behaviors, inconsistent parenting practices, multiple moves, and divorce, may also contribute to the development of oppositional and defiant behaviors. The interactions of a child who has a difficult temperament and irritable behavior with parents who are harsh, punitive, and inconsistent usually lead to a coercive, negative cycle of behavior in the family. In this pattern, the child's defiant behavior tends to intensify the parents' harsh reactions."

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/918095-overview

I could go on.

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What is Authoritative Parenting?

Authoritative parents exercise control over their children, without being controlling. They set rules and guidelines that they expect children to follow. But they also recognize that sometimes flexibility is called for. Authoritative parents often express love and affection to their children, without fear that such expressions of emotion may affect their ability to discipline. As their children get older, authoritative parents encourage more responsibility and freedom, within well-outlined rules. The American Academy of Pediatrics and other children’s health organizations state that children of authoritative parents usually grow up to be independent, socially successful, and respectful of authority.

Using snacks as an example, an authoritative parent might allow sweets in moderation, after explaining to the child that such treats are tasty, but not necessarily healthy.

Authoritarian Parenting

Like authoritative parenting, authoritarian parenting involves control. But unlike authoritative parenting, authoritarian parenting usually involves too much control. Authoritarian parents set rules and standards without flexibility, emphasize obedience and feel it is important to exert power over their children. Authoritarian parents may not show as much love and warmth as authoritative parents, which can lead to their children feeling rejected and unloved. Authoritarian parents are also more likely to label a child as “bad” if they fail to follow the strict rules set down for them. Children of authoritarian parents usually follow one of two paths; they either rebel against authority and escape their homes early (whether they are ready or not), or they remain dependent on their parents throughout adulthood.

Again using the snack analogy, an authoritarian parent would set a rule that sweet snacks are never allowed, no matter what the occasion.

Permissive Parenting

On the face of it, permissive parenting may seem like a much better idea than authoritarian parenting. Permissive parents show lots of love and affection, accept their children for what they are and make few demands of their children. But in doing this, permissive parents fail to teach their children the consequences of their actions, respect for authority and responsibility. By showing little or no control over their children, they risk raising a spoiled child who expects to be spoon-fed both physically and emotionally throughout life. Children of permissive parents are less likely to grow up independent and socially successful than children of authoritative parents.

In the snack example, a permissive parent would not limit a child’s intake of sweets, and would not explain the consequences of unlimited snack consumption.

Authoritative Works for All Children

Since authoritative parenting is inherently flexible, it works for all kinds of children. Whether a child is naturally anxious, easy-going or energetic, authoritative parents know that they can deal with any problems that arise as long as they stay firm in both their love, and their authority. Authoritative parents recognize that not all children are the same, and that rules may need some changing depending on the child. Being a flexible, authoritative parent shows your children the value of compromise and lets him or her know that while you are still in charge, you can make changes in rules if necessary.

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I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. That Van Gogh suffered from mental illness which was at times incredibly debilitating and led to his suicide is not disputed. It may or may not have contributed to his artistic ability.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. That Van Gogh suffered from mental illness which was at times incredibly debilitating and led to his suicide is not disputed. It may or may not have contributed to his artistic ability.

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Am I trying to prove something? I was just proposing an alternative take on him. Yes, he had mental illness, yes, he was an artist, and cared enough about his art being "good" in his estimation that he destroyed a number of them. But there's some suggestion that he's been over-romanticized, and did consider money to be a fair motivation.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
...What on earth is this link and thing you've quoted? None of it means anything to me.

I also note, again the point in my previous post saying that the parenting style that can generate ODD can work for other children, but only makes things worse for the defiant kid.

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Oh god, I'm sure he wanted money and success. That makes it all the more poignant, don't you think? And that possibly his mental health or lack of may not have contributed to his art but may have actually hindered it and most probably hindered any capacity to achieve success as he would have seen it.

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Research has found that there are three basic parenting styles:

Cop – Authoritarian Parenting Style. The parent implements behavioral programs and dishes out consequences for behavior. Tries to control situations to insure appropriate behavior. Fosters fear and conformity. Wants the child to always be obedient.

Social Worker – Permissive Parenting Style. The parent protects the child and tries to minimize consequences for behavior. Always tries to understand the child and wants others to understand and accept the child. Fosters dependence. Wants the child to always be happy.

Coach – Authoritative Parenting Style. The parent works alongside the child to encourage and teach him or her to develop an attitude and a set of skills that will lead to success. Helps the child to set reasonable goals and achieve them. Fosters independence. Wants the child to be as successful as possible.

[Research indicates that the Authoritative Parenting Style works best for all children].

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Originally posted by canttakesky:

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Did you happen to watch this Firefly show? It's pretty cool I here.

I'm sorry, I'm a fan of the world. I like it as it is, unmodified, uncontrolled, chaotic, not hydrogenated methylated chloro-fluoro-ethoxylated. Just good old planet earth, with people. Not a clone army of zombies. Ordinary, crazy, dangeous, funny, lovable people.

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Awwww. You just gave me the warm fuzzies.

As you say, "Spot on."


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Everything I say is just my opinion, not fact.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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The human mind. We're not talking about a neurodegenerative condition here, a malformed brain that will cause disability and death, we're talking about the human mind.

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Where does the mind end and the brain begin?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I still don't really understand. I wasn't calling you harsh and punitive, I was refuting what I thought was a claim that a lot of rules, structures, and discipline can be effective at reigning in a kid with a behavioural problem. It doesn't appear to be the case with ODD, as the parenting method is a cause for it.

I'm afraid classification of parenting styles into categories means absolutely nothing to me, as does an unsubstantiated claim, with no links to further studies or citations, that one works better than any other. I suspect all families are different, and all children are different, and people will revert to whatever feels natural to them on a case by case basis.

Do you have kids with behavioural issues? If so, I'd be interested to hear your personal experience with that. I don't know what these links are you're giving me.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Well, see, you really don't want to hear the voice of hard experience, do you Byte?

But, I'm going to tell you anyway.

My dd had a brain bleed when she was born, a bleed so bad it should have killed her- but didn't. As a result of her bleed, she developed a rare syndrome... not hydrocephalus but rarer... which caused unrelenting seizures and regression. I can tell you with absolute certainty that it was heartbreaking to watch her disappear under an onslaught of unending seizures into a mute, trembling, shell of a child who was lost in her own house. Trust me... I KNOW that the brain can screw up.

She also became extremely hyperactive. Oh yeah... and oppositional. She couldn't keep her mind on a single activity for more than ten seconds at a time. I was offered the option of Ritalin. But because I knew the cause of her problem, I chose not to medicate for that particular issue.

I have to say, that keeping her attention was like fishing a 50-lb fish with a 10-lb line. Too hard, I would lose her. Too easy, she would be bored and I would lose her. You have no frigging IDEA what we went through. But we did try non-prescription approaches. Now, I did aggressively pursue medical treatments for her other problems. NON-medication was not an option. Steroids and dopamine-preserving drugs proved to be the cure. She is still brain-damaged, but at least her brain chemistry is altered... permanently, one hopes... into functionality. She talks and even talks back, she finds her way around, she learns. We love her. She loves us. We're glad she's "with us" again.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:




Oh, and yes, Kudos, Byte: you created the thread that really lays bear where the core difference lies: I think you, me, frem and cts are all essentially falling here on the side of chaos as the natural order of the world, magon and sig are falling on the side of human-imposed order on the world.

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Easy. Brain is hardward (sic), mind is software.

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I'm not going to link you to any research. Partly because a quick google should provide you with what you require and partly because when I have provided links to research, you've still dismissed what I have said because it conflicts with what you believe to be true.

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when appropriate controls are made for family income and other independent variables, Baumrind believes that mild corporal punishment per se does not increase the likelihood of bad outcomes.[11] This assertion has in turn attracted criticism and counter-points from other researchers in the same publication, for example: Whether harmful or not, there is still no consistent evidence of beneficial effects.[12]

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Research into the child behavior outcomes associated with each type of parenting has traditionally shown a strong benefit to authoritative parenting. These children have been shown to have more self-discipline, emotional self-control, more friends and better school performance. However, recent research has identified a number of caveats. First, authoritarian parenting may be more effective in certain contexts and in social groups other than those studied in early research. Secondly, little research has examined the genetic influences that may underlie the findings. For instance, harsh parents may produce harsher children through the mechanism of genetic transmission of these traits. Behavior genetics research is currently examining the influence of genes as they pertain to parenting styles.

An additional criticism of the parenting styles research is that parenting has been shown to be part of a bi-directional relationship between parent and child. Thus, characterizing a parenting style as arising from the parent leaves out the essential influence of the child on the parent-child dyad.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
deal with people like Story and Nicki, and may end up with custody of the kid.

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I just pointed out your incorreect assumption), as opposed to someone like you, who is ignorant of simple facts?

Once again, Wulfie, you reveal how intelectually stunted you are.B]

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Easy. Brain is hardward, mind is software. If there's a physical problem, that's brain damage.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Ah I see, its the old 'when in doubt make some sweeping generalisations' time.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Citizen,

It's been around for about 30 years,

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Synaptic changes are more like switched than wires, because the brain can change them at will.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
The hardware is stuff which cannot be changed by the software, it needs to be physically altered.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I spend a lot of time studying the brain and have for the last decade. There are definitely two distinct levels, and I think the hardware/software is a pretty perfect match. We, our personalities, are programs, running on giant computers.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

The brain is hardware. It never changes unless there's a physical damage.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
If there is a physical damage, it cannot be repaired by changing the software.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

If there is a glitch in the software, it is overwhelmingly not caused by a problem in the hardware

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
and fixing it requires software solutions, which for the brain is psychology (any technique) or psychopharmacology (even if it's alt. med.)

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:

*even in extreme cases like mine. That said, therapy isn't going to cure a brain tumor. That's what I mean by a clear delineation.

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She is, however, potentially a product of her time. Many of the expressed viewpoints do seem to be consistent with a reactionary point of view to counter the United States 1960s hippie culture. She is also potentially a product of her upbringing.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, a reactionary viewpoint to 1960s hippie culture is difficult for me to call a neutral starting point. However, I do give her credit that she didn't say there were only two types of parenting and advocated the extreme opposite of hippie parenting, and instead recognized that there was also a such thing as too much discipline.

The particular problem I see is that once again in the web page I looked at a claim is made that "Research into the child behavior outcomes associated with each type of parenting has traditionally shown a strong benefit to authoritative parenting." But I see no cites or links leading to these studies. This makes me think that it is opinion, and also that there is a subset of the population for some reason interested in pushing this opinion.

I would have no problem if the three proposed parenting types listed had pros and cons for all of them, instead of holding up one better than another. It comes across to me as a subjective preference for authoritative parenting, but to be fair I'm not sure who or what group is responsible for the claim.

I also wonder how much parenting style can vary within a family, inevitably some parents are going to be more permissive with some children than with others. It seems like a generalization to say "all parents fall into these three styles, two have bad results, one has good results that works for all children."

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
And yes, I understand the general drift of those kinda feelings well enough to articulate them quite reasonantly, but of course every case is an individual thing and that is why folks really, really NEED to learn to listen to what the hell kids are saying, which most people never do because of the idiotic social concept that kids don't know anything - well, they know what their own issues are, and askin them, then LISTENING TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY is IMHO the first and most important step in helping them deal.

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I'd rather have a life, frankly, a put a smidge of trust that the world isn't out to get me for some [insert favourite conspiracy theory] reason.

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Sig, The brain is a physical thing, the mind is the information on it. Seems cut and dried to me.... Byte's problem here doesn't necessarily require repair though, it seem mental/chemical.

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Originally posted by SignyM:

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Sig, The brain is a physical thing, the mind is the information on it. Seems cut and dried to me.... Byte's problem here doesn't necessarily require repair though, it seem mental/chemical.

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DT, I see where we differ. I include "chemical" with "hardware".

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
All of that said, I'd agree the chemicals are part of the brain, because they're physical, but they're relatively easy to change, they're more like your USB flash drive then your CPU.

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sig


By contrast, you can't talk your way out of a stroke or hemorrhage. Sure, lobes share and exchange cells, but even this is very difficult to force in an adult brain, but it's not going to alter the raw major layouts of principle multi-axon bridged, vascular networks or sensor apparatus.

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then realized it was 92posts long

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I wish there were some way you could help him

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