Introspection by dreamtrove

CTS,

I thought of that but actually, the whole thing took me ten as much time as i spend debunking a global warming argument. I thought that given that yesterday I spend 12 hours watching someone play Total War, it was a better use of time ;)

Right now I'm getting started on writing a video game. I am short of time, and looking for ways to delete it. FFF:RWED is the top candidate for deletion. There's stuff here I want to talk about with people, but there's an awful lot that should be avoided, by me at least, but probably by most people.

If I were to ask people what their favorite part of Firefly was, I doubt very many would say "Abortion!"

Some might say "Guns" but I doubt they would say "Gun Control legislation."

I'm actually less bothered by "This is a cool gun" thread, which isn't for me, like "this is a cool car" thread, but it's not the vampire that sucks everyone in to post.

I figure that in the age of information, self control will be the dominating factor in separating sheep from goats.

Also, of course I posted this because I think it points to a psychological trigger. Brain studies show that there are around 300-400 such triggers hardwired into the human brain. It's my current aim to find them all. Here's one. Something triggers a "threat" mechanism under the connection that there is a threat to our freedom, which distracts us from talking about what we want to talk about.

Since you're knowledgeable in this field, I'm sure you know that how people spend their time, how they think they want to spend their time and how they actually spend their time, are three different unrelated things.

Grab a soda in a convenience store. 20 oz of Pepsi. But did you want 20 oz? or were you tricked? Maybe you wanted 7 oz. How about a 1 hour or 1/2 hour tv show? For me, it depends a lot. If I sit down to watch Jon Stewart, I'm mildly irritated after twenty min, if I sit through steven colbert I'm angry with myself. Really I wanted a dose of comedy. Maybe 8 min. of it.

This isn't the same issue, but it's related. I come here to talk about interesting stuff and here news that I can use. It's a pretty good news source, and good place to talk about stuff that you want to get a straight answer, not a preprogrammed response. However, I inevitably find myself getting trapped into defending ideas like that Iran is still a democracy or Jews aren't inherently evil, stuff which I would hope were obvious, but that I see some very worrisome notions bandied about that are like seeds of violence, etc. whatever, the point is, I'm talking about that and not what I came here for. Sure, talk that leads to a war with Iran doesn't threaten me, except in the sense that war threatens us all, but it's a similar hook.

Here's the most classic example *outside* of RWED.

Sarah Palin. I know any people who spend a great deal of time talking about Sarah Palin. Or have. Someone who they don't want to vote for, don't want to know, don't want to read anything by and who has no chance of being elected to the oval office, they just want to hate on her. She represent not an actual threat, but a subliminal link to the concept of threat.

Oh, and it took me longer to post this than the last one. I thought it was kind of obvious that I copied and pasted it into a spreadsheet and copyied and pasted in the names and labels.

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 9:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
He's probably visiting his sister again, or there's been some holdup in shipments for books. Again.

In any case, how much time he has is irrelevant to the conversation and the point he's trying to make. But

I'm not overly offended, I try to be irrelevant anyway. And it's actually very interesting to see the data, and see how we all tend to spend out time.

lol. Actually, my sister decided she wanted to sleep. I was supposed to be there, instead I'm home in a blizzard.

If I were to really spend time, I would have posted all the data in the spreadsheet and correlate to prove my point, but after 5 min I got bored. Anyone can eyeball through and see that some user post most threads, but this does not correlate with our time usage. We are hooked by particular topics, and not ones that really interest us, but ones that subliminally threaten us.

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 9:39 AM

WHOZIT

I didn't make your list! Don't you know who I am!

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 10:24 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I agree with your first post, almost entirely.

By the way, you’re incorrect: I didn’t post “US Patent 6506148: 'Nervous system manipulation by electromagnetic fields from TV and computer monitors'”.

After I’m through responding to those posts that interest me on the forum, I go to various news resources and look for things to put up that might interest someone. Yes, I put up more negative stuff on the right, but occasionally I put up stuff that disses the left, too, which few ideologues here do. Please note:

First three posts of mine listed: Two dissing the right; one dissing the left. Next, about the Wisconsin protests, truly a Real World Event in our country which might well have lasting implications. Next, a member of the general public fighting back against the banks. An unusual development, to me, and kinda neat. Next, a scientific development I found interesting and thought others might as well. Then a wedge issue, which I noted as being such. There followed three on Egypt—one of which was an update on the situation in each country involved, one a discussion of the aspect of the youth movement on the uprisings. I don't see those as "duplication". In between was the “Gitmo” thread, by way of countering those who keep insisting it’s only because of Obama that it’s not been closed. Count it as a “defense of politispeak” if you will. And lastly, a political thread “dissing” the right.

I try to look for news that might interest people—-some of which, unquestionably, reflects my own positions--then I usually leave the computer. It’s my way of contributing, as someone spoke of long ago. Whether what I post is of value or not is up to those who care to read them.

Nonetheless, I agree wholeheartedly, and have mentioned the guns and abortion things a couple of times (you left out climate change, among others). To me those are TRULY wedge issues.

I too have noted numerous times that “the new value (abortion, gun control, etc.) is rhetorically tied to the rights of that individual, so they become convinced that defending this wedge issue is essential to their "rights."” I’ve seen that so many times, where it seems like a reasonable person argues unreasonably or illogically on one of those issues because of the perception of it impinging on “rights”. I noticed it in a very silly (in my opinion) discussion on whether people have the right to demonstrate in the streets, if anyone remembers that, and how incredibly long the "discussion" went on, around and around. Seems when people perceive that their “rights” are being infringed on, everything else goes out the window except defending the concept of rights.

Almost everything you wrote in that post is right on...but it’s been written before, so of what value is it, either? It is what it is...”If we thought about it, we'd know that we knew better than to hack and slash in this jungle of nowhere.” I realized that a while back, which is why I only come here every day or three, respond to what interests me, put up a few topics and leave. I no longer get embroiled in the endless back and forths I used to, so yes, to a degree I get your point, and got it a little while ago. Won’t make any difference to most people, tho’, I’m afraid.

Lemme see, the last time I brought this topic up, I was told in no uncertain terms that everyone had freedom of speech and was entitled to post whatever they wanted...as in I was trying to “control” others. I think pointing it out, while interesting, goes nowhere, but I found your list and your post interesting.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 10:35 AM

BYTEMITE

Uh oh, a thought occurs. If people post less, I'm going to spend more time being bored.

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 10:47 AM

Niki

Thanks, corrected. If that got in there, then there are probably other errors, I mismatched columns, sloppy work. I just was comparing posting styles to numbers and results, they didn't correlate strongly, except that we who post a lot tend to post less relevant things than lurkers who almost never post, which is I suppose to be expected. Actually, we probably post as much relevant stuff as they do, but it's lower by percentage.

As for which threads sparked partisan debates or were partisan, I wasn't paying any attention which side. I thought a lot of the political threads in general went that way.

I've posted a number of wedge issues myself. Here's the problen: The MSM posts them ALL THE TIME and so when we see them, as "news" we take them as real world events. This has led me to post a good number of them, but I probably should have filtered.

Another thing, posting style may increase or decrease the chances of sparking a partisan war. This is where Kaneman obviously wins, she is *trying* to do just that, and succeeds. But not that often. Sometimes a post on Ron Paul is not at all partisan. Sometimes it may not even be political, it may be purely economic.

You tend to rant politically about your opinion on a topic. Most of us do. I'm trying to do it less. No one cares what my opinion is, nor should they, unless I ask for it. But I was trying not to figure this in to my equation. An abortion thread is a wedge issue thread no matter what the angle. A global warming thread is very likely to be one as well. Ditto for gay marriage, etc. etc. If someone just posted "Gay marriage law passed in Iowa" matter of factly, I would still have labelled it wedge issue. If you're gay, you probably already got that news, certainly if you were gay in Iowa.

As for what value it is, I'm trying to identify the psychological triggers of the human psyche, I said that already. This seems to me to be one of them: My rights are being impinged upon.

Knowing this might be useful to people in politics. Perhaps it would be more persuasive to say "Your right to clean drinking water is being violated" than it would be to say "gas companies are polluting the environment."

Quote:
I was told in no uncertain terms that everyone had freedom of speech and was entitled to post whatever they wanted...as in I was trying to “control” others.

Yes, I've been told that many times over the years when I try to stop people from jumping off a cliff. I'm impinging on their right to jump off a cliff. No, I'm just pointing out to you the location of the cliff. A major part that people don't get about triggers is the whole concept of them being "subconscious" so, yes, this is about awareness not control. I also think that argument, which has been posted to me by several people over the years, that someone posted to you, is ironically recursive. ;)

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 10:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Uh oh, a thought occurs. If people post less, I'm going to spend more time being bored.

Nah, you won't, there's always fanfic, and failing that talk story, or general ;)

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 11:45 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
...I'm sure you know that how people spend their time, how they think they want to spend their time and how they actually spend their time, are three different unrelated things.

#1 sounds like #3.

Quote:
However, I inevitably find myself getting trapped into defending ideas ... whatever, the point is, I'm talking about that and not what I came here for.

Look, DT. It is very simple. When you find yourself doing something you don't really want to do, you have to ask yourself what need the unwanted action is fulfilling. The compulsion to correct someone on the internet, for example, may fulfill a need to express superior education or knowledge or some other psychological need.

So yes, you can look for external "tricks" people use to trigger a response, or you can look for internal holes that need to be filled. Either way, the objective is to change the behavior, to find an alternative way to fill the hole so those triggers won't work anymore.

As for myself, I am gonna find better ways to spend my time too. I *really* enjoy wasting time on RWED. It's like a personal Disneyland. But one can't live in Disneyland forever.

-------
Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 12:47 PM

CTS

Quote:
#1 sounds like #3.

lol. When you watch someone play Total War for 12 hours, you're not just wasting time, you don't get any sleep ;)

Quote:
Look, DT. It is very simple. When you find yourself doing something you don't really want to do, you have to ask yourself what need the unwanted action is fulfilling.

okay

Quote:
The compulsion to correct someone on the internet, for example, may fulfill a need to express superior education or knowledge or some other psychological need.

i used to think so, but now I think it's defensive. No one who does it comes across as superior, and when i do it, i'm not feeling superior, i'm usually feeling under attack, mostly personal. When I'm not, it's either: I'm disturbed by what someone has said, ie. "that sounds an awful lot like an excuse for something really bad, and even if they don't think so, they should know that it's leading there" like the people who argued for "getting rid of WMDs" was really a case for the Iraq war; or, it's that I'm not feeling very well or am in a bad mood and so I snap at some random person.

Quote:
So yes, you can look for external "tricks" people use to trigger a response, or you can look for internal holes that need to be filled.

Ah, but I can't see the internal holes until I see someone doing tricks.

Quote:
Either way, the objective is to change the behavior, to find an alternative way to fill the hole so those triggers won't work anymore.

Very good point. Have to think about that. I think that would work sometimes, it undoubtedly wouldn't help, but there are people who can get off of one addiction and go straight to another, oh, I guess I'm making your point for you.

Okay, So, if I can take your idea to a skinner box, if the rat has a red button that will give him randomly food or an electric shock, he'll stop hitting it all day if he has a blue button which will always give him food.

Quote:
As for myself, I am gonna find better ways to spend my time too. I *really* enjoy wasting time on RWED. It's like a personal Disneyland. But one can't live in Disneyland forever.

I know what you mean. it'll not do well without you ;)

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 4:19 PM

"It is not Kaneman who steers us into the ditch, the world is perpetually full of Kanemen: We do it ourselves. The only way to stop doing it is by protecting ourselves again it. I'm open to any suggestions on how."

I only provide the road on which I drive. You nutters take some of this shit into some strange places all on your own. I noticed you forgot the pot smoking hippies 4 mentalhealth posts.

That being said...I was not aware we had a template or rules about what we could post or when or by who. But, what do I know...I'm just a black chick from tanzania....

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 4:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
My God, DT. You have way too much time.

Like this guy.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientatio
n

This sent me into giggle fits.
Ok, some cats do it for amusement or entertainment, my cat does it when she's annoyed with me, and yestereve after getting intercepted by my shoe en route to ambush Puppy, as I can TELL when she's up to no good and pre-empted her - Kallista proceeds to glare at me, go "RIAOW!" and then storm off into the bathroom, and thump-thump-thump the whole bloody roll onto the floor...

And then of course disappears entirely while cussing human with squirt gun searches in vain.

If they ever do evolve thumbs, humanity is finished as the dominant species...

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:17 PM

Quote:
Scanning back, I found a depressing amount of it was spent on wedge issues, where both sides are cemented, and debate is not only pointless, but also typically about subjects we don't really care about, we only think we do, and this that are neither real world nor events. It seems the most important thing that people got out of firefly was gun control, and the second was abortion, third, hating the other blue/red party, which is also part of the first two.

Equally curious is how, so a first stab at it is that the new value (abortion, gun control, etc.) is rhetorically tied to the rights of that individual, so they become convinced that defending this wedge issue is essential to their "rights."

It's not, of course, that's the illusion, but some ways it's not important strike me the most:

1. No one is about to change either of these, or any other, wedge issue positions

2. It's not essential to your rights. You can defend yourself without guns, and you can avoid pregnancy without abortion.

3. Arguing with people on this topic never gets results, it's a total waste of time. It's unlikely you will ever change anyone's mind on them.

4. It's not important what other people think of these issues, they undoubtedly perceive themselves in danger by a different analysis of the very same topic.

5. Why does it matter what random people on the internet think of you or your beliefs?

6. Lack of judgment is what's leading us into this. If we thought about it, we'd know that we knew better than to hack and slash in this jungle of nowhere. Exactly what percent of your life are you going to waste in the name of defending your perceived rights to random internet posters.

7. We're easily manipulated sheep who can be steered off of any correct path into any minefield of wedge issues, partisanship or embattled wedge angles of any political topic in the same manner that we were programmed to believe such things in the first place.

And by this I don't mean that we don't have interesting and unique takes on these issues, but that their importance has been elevated in our minds by psychological manipulation.

Note that I've snipped your post a bit to get to the bits that I want to respond to.

Firstly, I just want to say that I have noticed a tendancy in you, DT, to post a lot about what we should and shouldn't argue about, and how we should argue and what is, in your opinion, a waste of time. I wonder what it is about you that needs to do this, because firstly, posting here IS a waste of time. Full stop. Or as you yankees would say 'period'. We come here to chew the old bone and I would guess that different posters post for different reasons. My reasons probably differ to yours and to Piratenews. Nevertheless, here we all are. Whether we post, respond, ignore, go off topic, post double threads, post non RW stuff in the RW, troll or whatever, it has been made clear that this is a self governing board and people can do and say what the hell they like.

Re wedge issues - that they do divide and people may be cemented into their views is neither here nor there. If you think they are important issues, they need to be discussed. I don't want abortion to be made illegal in this country and I'll fight like hell to keep the status quo. Some people in America clearly feel the same way about guns.

Opinions do change, dominant paradigms shift. Yesterday's wedge issue, eg should women get the vote, is a non issue today and so it will be with some of the issues that are discussed here and elsewhere. And people do change their minds through discourse, it may not be that a rampant right to lifer will suddenly become pro abortion, but it may be that someone who is sitting on the fence listens to an good argument and decides to climb over.

So if you feel strongly that the so called wedge issues turn yout stomach, stay away. I do with the rampant conspiracy theory threads and 99% of what piratenews posts, because I have nothing to say and no interest in entering those conversations. But as for the rest, it makes me consider my own views and how I say things and how I check sources, and that is why I come here.

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:24 PM

HKCAVALIER

Dream,

Be the goat. Just be the goat. Other goats will recognize you and let you into their exclusive goat clubs. As long as you waist all this time trying to educate sheep, like some savior/bodhisattva sheep, the goats just kinda shake their heads. The sheep don't need you. Do you need the sheep?

And, for the love o' Pete, man, why do you persist in calling kaneman "she?"

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:31 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

DT really enjoys trying to be the board moderator on a board without moderators or moderation. He also quite enjoys wasting his time telling others how much time they're wasting here.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, February 19, 2011 10:20 PM

I object to your wasting time here whining about DT whining about wasting time. I'm offended. And you are exactly like a nazi when you conduct yourself thus.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

Firstly, I just want to say that I have noticed a tendancy in you, DT, to post a lot about what we should and shouldn't argue about

Is this how you normally adress your audience, by insinuating? I can tell you it's not real effective. I mean, your audience for this post is me, and you've given me little reason to read on.

Of course I posted in the above quote and many times that all of my posts are now about psychology. I don't care how Magon spends her time.

It wasn't a total waste of time. Niki had something to say on it.

Quote:

We come here to chew the old bone and I would guess that different posters post for different reasons.

See, now this is you having something to say. Why wasn't it the first line of your post, instead of berating me in the hopes that I wouldn't read further ? ;)

Quote:
a self governing board and people can do and say what the hell they like.

Thank you. Yes, this is my point, and in assessing what they "like" they fail to take into account the subliminal.

I often post responses because I feel I have to, someone has impugned me, or stated dangerous non-truth, such as a case for war. I can be manipulated into talking about politics, guns, abortion or lots of things that aren't things that I "like." I'd like to talk about science. I think the most interesting political thread that was posted above was the one about David Cameron. Others may disagree. But that is not why we all posted about guns. Or most of us. We all posted about guns. And have many times. Because we felt threatened, either by guns, or by someone taking guns away. If we liked guns, the thread would be "what's your favorite gun?" or something like that. And it's not that people here are psychologically manipulating others, its that we are reposting from news sources that are manipulating hIt is our own lack of self control that leads us to invest more time in abortion and guns than in our own interests.

Quote:
Yesterday's wedge issue, eg should women get the vote,

this was a wedge issue ?
Magon, a wedge issue is one designed specifically to divide the populous, hence the term wedge.

Quote:
people do change their minds through discourse,

Not on wedge issues they don't, because people have a vested interest in their stance. But even if they did. Would it merit 90% of your attention? Really. The best part of firefly for you is abortion? If not, why are y'all posting as if it were? Oh, right, because you're being subliminally manipulated. You just don't want to admit it.

Quote:
So if you feel strongly that the so called wedge issues turn yout stomach, stay away.
Quote:

Your missing the point

Also, you should probably check out Pirate News. Imagine my first reaction to Pirate News given my own background, he'll, you don't have to, you can go back and read it, but it wasn't pretty, I think my first comment was something like "Nazi". He's over the top, but he has a point, lots of them. Not about Jews, or the british empire, but about many scientific topics, and the manner in which we are sheep.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 2:05 AM

Frem,

I actually *had* a cat with thumbs. Two of them on each paw, so eight in all. Yes, he actually would eat his cat food by picking it up piece by piece and popping it in his mouth. He would not bury his nose in the bowl. Really. Catch a mouse? Pick it up and carry it ;)
Hurricaine, so named because he had several times the destructive force of his brother Storm. They were feral cats who walked into the house. Storm was also a wonderful cat, a cat so doglike his nickname was "the dog". No thumbs.

Still, evolution has a ways to go there. In his case, feline leukemia, but just general issues of life expectancy and intelligence. couldn't tell if he was dumb or stubborn, but unlike his brother, who would always understand what humans wanted, Hurricane would ignore it completely. No cat on the table the first 97 times? Okay, it's been five seconds, lets try 98, maybe they've changed their minds !

If Hurricane was on your lap, and you got up, where other cats would hop off, Hurricane would cling on for dear life. Normally though, he liked to be on people's shoulders, not laps, and if you stood up and walked around he'd just stay there.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 2:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
DT really enjoys trying to be the board moderator on a board without moderators or moderation. He also quite enjoys wasting his time telling others how much time they're wasting here.

Mike,

Mike, don't be an idiot.

You are right about one thing, I would rather talk about cats than about the definition of a wedge issue, but that was not how I just divided my time. Frems cat post was non-threatening, so it demanded less attention than Magon's personal attack, so I was manipulated into changing my time allocation on a subconscious level.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 3:31 AM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
DT really enjoys trying to be the board moderator on a board without moderators or moderation. He also quite enjoys wasting his time telling others how much time they're wasting here.

Mike,

Mike, don't be an idiot.

You are right about one thing, I would rather talk about cats than about the definition of a wedge issue, but that was not how I just divided my time. Frems cat post was non-threatening, so it demanded less attention than Magon's personal attack, so I was manipulated into changing my time allocation on a subconscious level.

Huh. Interesting opening gambit, coming from you - especially after THIS:

Quote:
Is this how you normally adress your audience, by insinuating? I can tell you it's not real effective. I mean, your audience for this post is me, and you've given me little reason to read on.

I wasn't being an idiot, nor was I being insulting. I was making a rational, dispassionate observation.

You spend entirely too much of your own precious time telling others not only what to argue about, but HOW. You also seem to enjoy telling others how much time they waste in doing so. Pointing out such a dichotomy is not intended as an attack.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 3:33 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The sheep don't need you. Do you need the sheep?

That is the question of all questions, isn't it?

That and WHY do you need the sheep (if you do).

-------
Hell, the only reason the Government hates crime at all is that it despises competition. - Frem

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 6:39 AM

Mike,

I hope that wasn't your idea of rational observation

You do make a good point, though. (see opening snark) But an opening snake is not the same as opening vitriol.

And no, I don't care what other people do, I want to understand why. If I actually wanted to change the channel of this discussion, I'd post more threads. I could take a topic that there was already a thread on and reframe the debate and post my own thread, like Kaneman just did. Now that would be an attempt to change the debate on a firefly forum. What a waste of time. Understanding people and how they function? That's not a waste of time. It's also a topic that interests at least half a dozen people here. If no one else wants to comment on the topic, fine, no matter. If they do, great, all input is welcome, even if it's just to say "the jews made them do it" ;)

HK,

I want to undestand the process by which sheep get separated from goats. I already know the goats. I'm not interested in the sheep, except for that manner by which they walk into minefields. Everyone's a sheep sometimes.

Also, re Kaneman:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/showprofile.asp?u=21023

ETA: there are two people in my town who like to be called she even though they had dicks until recently, then one of them decided to have themselves surgically altered just to make sure that they could remove themselves from the gene pool. Didn't make said person look like a woman, but people still call her "she." I guess it's too late to her "he." I kinda care for Sig's "it" moniker though.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:09 AM

BYTEMITE

Nah, "it" moniker is troublesome because it dehumanizes them.

In the eyes of the NWO they may have made themselves a non-threat, a non-human, and just another number, but they don't have to be that to us. They still have personality and executive action, so they're human. Ask them what they prefer you to call them. Most often it actually is she, so that's a fair gender designation to go with if in doubt.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:37 AM

Um, I was talking about Kaneman

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Um, I was talking about Kaneman

No you were not. you were talking about some dude who had his cock cut off.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 1:46 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Hey coolies, I'm influential!

I suppose I should preface everything with 'IMO' but,

DT does tend to come across as a little arrogant in threads like these, and while some of his suppositions can often rub me the wrong way, he's looking to get a better understanding of psychology. I think looking to get a better understanding of anything is a worthy goal, and DT just has a different, perhaps more 'active' method than of that than I do. DT says something, gets challenged and argues, I tend to ask questions and for clarification.

Magons, Kiki, Kwicko and a few others will often come off as insulting, and I've trained myself to try to ignore that (which is a mite easier when it ain't directed at me) and sometimes they will have some very interesting contributions.

HK and Anthony may not speak that much, but when they do, it's generally worth hearing. I rarely 'skim' or skip those posters.

I've always thought of Kane and to PN as trolls, but occasionally they have something very interesting to contribute as well.

Those are the folks who stick out as more 'extremes' in my head at the moment. I'm not putting a lot of thought into this, just going instinctual like. Been away from internet for a bit and I'm catching up. I'd like to mention Frem but I'm not sure how I'd describe him. He's like that friend you don't really agree with big picture wise but can't disagree with in most smaller issues and observations, which makes you wonder how much you really disagree with the big picture 'in spirit' as it were.

So why am I so influential? Am I really influential, or just relatively 'nonthreatening and ineffectual' enough to be generally well received like a certain president? And we must be sheep or goats? If someone can explain to me what characterizes a 'goat' perhaps I can decide if I don't belong in a different zoo.

If I had to be an animal, I'd probably think of my self as a Labrador. I know, not exactly a leader, but happy, helpful and good with children.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:25 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Mike,

I hope that wasn't your idea of rational observation

Well, only about as much as any of this is your idea of civil discussion.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 4:33 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Re wedge issues - that they do divide and people may be cemented into their views is neither here nor there. If you think they are important issues, they need to be discussed. I don't want abortion to be made illegal in this country and I'll fight like hell to keep the status quo. Some people in America clearly feel the same way about guns.

Opinions do change, dominant paradigms shift. Yesterday's wedge issue, eg should women get the vote, is a non issue today and so it will be with some of the issues that are discussed here and elsewhere. And people do change their minds through discourse, it may not be that a rampant right to lifer will suddenly become pro abortion, but it may be that someone who is sitting on the fence listens to an good argument and decides to climb over.

... I do (stay away) with the rampant conspiracy theory threads and 99% of what piratenews posts, because I have nothing to say and no interest in entering those conversations. But as for the rest, it makes me consider my own views and how I say things and how I check sources, and that is why I come here.

Damn, Magons, you spared me all that time typing. Except for that one sentence, you pretty much covered it for me.

DT, you just proved Magons point that you

Quote:
post a lot about what we should and shouldn't argue about, and how we should argue and what is, in your opinion, a waste of time.

If this whole thing wasn’t a lecture, it sure came across as one.

Quote:
Is this how you normally address(sic) your audience, by insinuating?

I didn’t see that as insulting, just as one poster telling another poster how they come across. I agree with her, and it’s one of the things that puts me off your posts sometimes.

Quote:
I mean, your audience for this post is me, and you've given me little reason to read on.

What makes you the only audience? Yes, it was speaking to you, but if you were the only audience, she’d PM or e-mail you...especially if she WAS trying to “berate” you. We’re a group; what one person has to say can be useful/interesting to any one of us. I happen to agree with her. So do some others. And, my goodness, aren’t you berating her by saying she’s being insulting, she’s given you no reason to read on, she’s berating you???

One of the things that bothers ME is your posting that someone has “stated dangerous non-truth”. It might be a “dangerous non-truth” to YOU, but that doesn’t make it infallible or even true necessarily. You’ve pointed out a lot of stuff as non-truths which are your opinion, in my mind. And if it feels like I’m “berating” you, I'm not doing so intentionally; I'm speaking frankly of what I feel I've observed and giving my opinion. You’re quite happy to talk about our faults and have often pointed things out to and about me of which you disapprove; how are Magons or I considered “insulting” and “berating” when we do so? What Magons said, if you compare the two, is far less “insulting” than what Mike said, and is in no way, as I see it, a “personal attack”. Yet you took what she said as a personal attack, but it seems not what Mike said. But isn't telling Mike Mike not to be an idiot a pretty obvious "personal attack

To say you were “manipulated” as a bad argument, to me. Magon made a statement; YOU felt attacked and shot back. She said she “noted” a “tendency”...her opinion. I think it’s possible you SAW that as insulting, berating, manipulative or a personal attack. And your assumption that she was manipulating you to not read further is PURE judgment; how do you know that? To ME, your response seemed out of proportion.

I think maybe you’re kind of losing your temper or something, as you appear to be contradicting yourself now and again. What the media provides may not fit your description of “news”, but a lot of it IS...reporting of events that newly happened. Like the guy suing the bank. Most discussions about guns come about because someone put up a “news” story about guns. That IS a wedge issue, as much as any of the others, yet you seem to be justifying it as a legitimate real world event because some are afraid their guns will be taken away.

I post some things because I’m afraid something might be taken away; from me, from the earth; from other people, whatever. Do you understand what I’m saying? It is no more or less valid to discuss guns than it is to discuss abortion or climate change, etc.; we have all spoken our piece on the subjects, over and over again, and gotten into flame wars over them.

You really think women's right to vote wasn't a wedge issue in its time??? You don't think it drove wedges between men and women, between women and women, etc., etc., to the exclusion of whatever might at the time to have been judged a more important topic? I'd bet otherwise.

I have only mild feelings about guns, but I feel threatened that womens’ inability to obtain abortions is DEFINITELY being targeted and, if the right has its way, WILL be taken away even in the case of rape, incest or the life of the mother. That’s real; nobody’s taken any guns away yet, and I’ll betcha they never do. Too much a part of our society.

I find it hard to accept your statement that you’re interested in psychology, not in what other people think. Then why share all this with us? Are YOU manipulating to see how we’d react? I don’t think so, or at least hope not, ergo you were looking for responses and wanted to share something you thought was interesting. Isn’t that what we do when we start a thread? If you were only interested in psychology, you wouldn’t need to share, would you?

As you can see by now, Magons isn’t the only one to have noted what she has. Happy’s use of the word “arrogant” pegs exactly how it feels to me. Given more than one person views your posts this way, perhaps you shouldn’t take what we have to say as berating or manipulating, but rather as just an indication of how you come across. There is no need for you to change even one iota of how you post, but it’s there, it’s a fact, why take it as a personal insult?

By the way, I’d also like to ask the same question:

Quote:
And we must be sheep or goats?

and to that I would add “who exactly judges who is a sheep and who is a goat?" And "can we be part sheep and part goat?" The judgment to me has a rather unpleasant tone to it, kind of condescending, like "you and I know who are the sheep"...poke, poke, poke.

As an aside: Hey Happy, you left me out! I’m hurt! Here I am wasting my time talking to DT wasting his time talking about about wasting our time, and probably not doing anything but pissing him off further, and you’re out there sticking people in categories and not even NOTICING me...am I beneath your notice? Harumph!

Some of us come across more caustic than others, I know I do. So what? I mean, when it’s taken to extremes like Kane, PN, Whozit, it doesn’t mean anything...to me they’re not real “people”, as their reasons for being here, I believe, have NOTHING to do with communicating, so they’re not important enough to notice. But we’re all personalities; Happy comes across nice, as does Peacekeeper most of the time; some of us have personal feelings about other posters, some have a desire to judge others...so what? It’s a free country...uhhh, forum, it’s of no import what we post or DON’T post, is it, really?

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Hey coolies, I'm influential!

I suppose I should preface everything with 'IMO' but,

DT does tend to come across as a little arrogant in threads like these, and while some of his suppositions can often rub me the wrong way, he's looking to get a better understanding of psychology. I think looking to get a better understanding of anything is a worthy goal, and DT just has a different, perhaps more 'active' method than of that than I do. DT says something, gets challenged and argues, I tend to ask questions and for clarification.

Magons, Kiki, Kwicko and a few others will often come off as insulting, and I've trained myself to try to ignore that (which is a mite easier when it ain't directed at me) and sometimes they will have some very interesting contributions.

HK and Anthony may not speak that much, but when they do, it's generally worth hearing. I rarely 'skim' or skip those posters.

I've always thought of Kane and to PN as trolls, but occasionally they have something very interesting to contribute as well.

Those are the folks who stick out as more 'extremes' in my head at the moment. I'm not putting a lot of thought into this, just going instinctual like. Been away from internet for a bit and I'm catching up. I'd like to mention Frem but I'm not sure how I'd describe him. He's like that friend you don't really agree with big picture wise but can't disagree with in most smaller issues and observations, which makes you wonder how much you really disagree with the big picture 'in spirit' as it were.

So why am I so influential? Am I really influential, or just relatively 'nonthreatening and ineffectual' enough to be generally well received like a certain president? And we must be sheep or goats? If someone can explain to me what characterizes a 'goat' perhaps I can decide if I don't belong in a different zoo.

If I had to be an animal, I'd probably think of my self as a Labrador. I know, not exactly a leader, but happy, helpful and good with children.

Glad you have always thought of me as a troll. I find it kinda odd...I've been here for years before you had ever watched firefly. Am I a troll because.. I am a self hating black chick? Because I call douchebags like you ...cunts? I hate liberal slime? I huff gasoline now and then? cause I think olbermann is stupid? Whozit? I am the beast...sometimes a beast that minces.

oh, Kwicko is gay

Burn wisconsin burn

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 7:48 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, Magons and Niki have left me no thunder to throw - other than to point out if one is going to be arrogant, instead of denying it, better to take that ball and run with it...

And Happy, if you're a Lab, then I am that classically american breed known as the junk yard dog.

Great for keeping folk off your stuff, your rights, your business - not really a friendly, happy loveable critter though.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
this was a wedge issue ?
Magon, a wedge issue is one designed specifically to divide the populous, hence the term wedge.

Abortion and gun control have not been 'designed' to divide the population, they are issues which cause strong feelings in people, often, but not always, due to ideology. They may have become wedge issues, but they weren't designed that way. The passion around these debates is comparable to women getting the vote, as Niki pointed out. Divided countries, families and marriages in its time and now.....who would want it any other way.

Quote:
Quote:
people do change their minds through discourse,

Not on wedge issues they don't, because people have a vested interest in their stance. But even if they did. Would it merit 90% of your attention? Really. The best part of firefly for you is abortion? If not, why are y'all posting as if it were? Oh, right, because you're being subliminally manipulated. You just don't want to admit it.

I don't come here to discuss firefly. This is Real World Discussion, in case you haven't noticed. There are other areas of this board where you can discuss the series. People do change their minds, as I stated earlier - but more likely if you have less extreme views. Even then, people do change. Think about the concept of Neo cons for example - people who are 'new conservatives'.

Quote:

Also, you should probably check out Pirate News. Imagine my first reaction to Pirate News given my own background, he'll, you don't have to, you can go back and read it, but it wasn't pretty, I think my first comment was something like "Nazi". He's over the top, but he has a point, lots of them. Not about Jews, or the british empire, but about many scientific topics, and the manner in which we are sheep.

Pirate news is an insane looney who spouts vile anti semitism and general incoherent ranting. Even when he finds a story which isn't completely demented, he writes misinformed rubbish. I don't care to waste my time.

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Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:42 PM

I might also add that neither guns nor abortion are 'wedge' issues here to the degree they are in the US, although people can differ re abortion, most people do agree that it should not be illegal.

A recent debate in parliament surrounding this issue produced some of the BEST parliamentary debate that most of us had ever heard, simply because parlimentarians spoke from the heart for a change, rather than along party lines.

I do believe we have the most liberal laws in the world in my state, re abortion, and that is a result of people continuing to discuss and debate the hard stuff.

Guns are a non issue.

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Monday, February 21, 2011 3:30 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Hey Niki,

Haha, I left a few out like you and cts cause (to me anyway) y'all come across as more moderate in 'temperament' despite often being on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I suppose that could be considered ironic for someone living with bipolar.The extreme's stick out and the rare but sagely types. I'm sure there are other 'extremes' I forgot though.

Kane, you are right in that I am still sort of a newcomer here, which is why I prefaced it all with IMO. I still think you're a troll most the time

but that's being over used and labeled anyway, so it don't really mean much. It's like calling someone racist. Are they really racist or do they just disagree with someone who happens to be of a minority? Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, right?

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Monday, February 21, 2011 5:23 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

So now I ask myself, why am I wasting my time posting on this thread about wasting time? I guess the answer is to say I enjoy this forum very much, now that I gave in and registered, and we have an entertainingly dysfunctional community here, as much as we don't agree we have a common bond between us, we're all browncoats. Why do I like to state my opinion on wedge issues? One reason is that I feel I can, have the right to, so I want to. Another reason is that I love communicating with people, people I know, people I don't, people I'd like to meet, people I would rather not, people I've just met or people I've known for a long time. I love communicating! So I post whatever I like, filtered through my attempt-at-rounded-moderation-and-dare-I-say-diplomacy filter. I don't see communicating as a waste of time. If someone does then they have the right to approach the situation or change their habbits as they see fit. DT even though we don't always agree I like talking to you, you're quite nice to me and call me a chara, Cantt you post interesting things and bring unique perspectives.

I think that I could find something to agree with, and something to disagree with, with every person on the planet, how much I agree or disagree depends on the person, but that is a sensable variable. Caneman is obnoxious in my opinion, but there are things she says (I'm not sure I believe Caneman is female either but that isn't my place to decide), that I do agree with ... sometimes. So I believe we can find common ground, and differing ground, with any person we meet.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 21, 2011 6:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Hey Niki,

Haha, I left a few out like you and cts cause (to me anyway) y'all come across as more moderate in 'temperament' despite often being on opposite ends of the political spectrum. I suppose that could be considered ironic for someone living with bipolar.The extreme's stick out and the rare but sagely types. I'm sure there are other 'extremes' I forgot though.

Kane, you are right in that I am still sort of a newcomer here, which is why I prefaced it all with IMO. I still think you're a troll most the time but that's being over used and labeled anyway, so it don't really mean much. It's like calling someone racist. Are they really racist or do they just disagree with someone who happens to be of a minority? Everyone who disagrees with me is wrong, right?

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Monday, February 21, 2011 6:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
So now I ask myself, why am I wasting my time posting on this thread about wasting time? I guess the answer is to say I enjoy this forum very much, now that I gave in and registered, and we have an entertainingly dysfunctional community here, as much as we don't agree we have a common bond between us, we're all browncoats. Why do I like to state my opinion on wedge issues? One reason is that I feel I can, have the right to, so I want to. Another reason is that I love communicating with people, people I know, people I don't, people I'd like to meet, people I would rather not, people I've just met or people I've known for a long time. I love communicating! So I post whatever I like, filtered through my attempt-at-rounded-moderation-and-dare-I-say-diplomacy filter. I don't see communicating as a waste of time. If someone does then they have the right to approach the situation or change their habbits as they see fit. DT even though we don't always agree I like talking to you, you're quite nice to me and call me a chara, Cantt you post interesting things and bring unique perspectives.

I think that I could find something to agree with, and something to disagree with, with every person on the planet, how much I agree or disagree depends on the person, but that is a sensable variable. Caneman is obnoxious in my opinion, but there are things she says (I'm not sure I believe Caneman is female either but that isn't my place to decide), that I do agree with ... sometimes. So I believe we can find common ground, and differing ground, with any person we meet.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Riona, you seem pretty rational. I have no problem with you finding me to be obnoxious or whatever.....so, I'm going to help you out...

There is a letter "K". You can find it on most keyboards between "J" and "L"....

just sayin.

I think your caneman is Kaneman, but not really sure....If i'm wrong. Sorry.

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Monday, February 21, 2011 6:33 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Oops, you're right, I'm a crappy speller.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 22, 2011 9:43 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I've been off my game. My posts need to be more important.

Oh well.

And wolves beat all dogs... but if I was a dog.. PitBull.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, February 25, 2011 12:21 AM