REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

9.0 in Japan

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 9, 2023 02:48
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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:15 AM

HARDWARE


I'd have to look up the citation, but I thought the San Andreas was actually a torsional plate that is rotating clockwise as the Pacific plate subducts under the North American plate?

I also recall that the Mammoth Lake area of California had been "humping" under geological pressure. Something there wants out. I sure hope Chile, New Zealand and now Japan are not precursors of something else big going on the ring of fire.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:37 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.




Dr Brian Baptie, also from the BGS, explained that the earthquake occurred on the subduction zone along two different tectonic plates, the Pacific plate to the east and another plate to the west, which many geologists regard as a continuation of the North American plate.


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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:44 AM

BYTEMITE


The pacific plate is a tough one, it seems to be moving north or northeast. Torsion may have been suggested to explain the many directions it seems to be moving (judging by the subduction zones) The San Andreas is not a plate in of itself.

Subduction along north america and south america actually only occurs in a few locations, such as along the kodiak islands in Alaska, under the micro-plate in the vicinity of Seattle, and around the chilean mountains, where there's another plate between it and the pacific plate.

In any case, the San Andreas Fault is distinctly a strike-slip fault.

Illustration:



EDIT: Heh, Kiki posted one too. Anyway, hope that all helps people.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The release of hydrogen gas from the nuclear reactors means that the "cladding" of the fuel rods is oxidizing (steam + zirconium alloy + heat = zirconium oxide powder + hydrogen). That process actually ADDS heat to the reactor core, and drives up the temperature even further.

What that means is the fuel rods are swelling and possibly splitting. If the fuel rods swell and split, it will be physically impossible to remove them because they will be jammed in to their holders.

Very close to the oxidation temperature of Zircalloy is the runaway temperature, where the "moderator" materials melt and run down into a puddle in the bottom of the containment vessel, leaving the fuel rods naked to each other.

The operators HAVE to keep the core cool by ANY means possible, or there will be a Chernobyl-style meltdown.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 6:01 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


The Super Moon will be increasing its gravitational force upon planet Earth for the rest of this week...

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Monday, March 14, 2011 6:14 AM

BYTEMITE


Here's a thought: why do we even have nuclear power plants above ground, anyway?

When they test nuclear weapons, they drill into a solid granite stock and the bury it before they set it off. When people are doing experiments with particle accelerators, they do them below ground.

If you absolutely have to have nuclear power plants, and your public doesn't want to individualize their power supply with something more manageable, why in HELL do you build them above ground?

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Monday, March 14, 2011 6:37 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Actually it's Yellowstone which has me wincing...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/01/110119-yellowstone-par
k-supervolcano-eruption-magma-science
/

If that sucker ever goes, it'd make what happened in Japan look like a wet firecracker by comparison.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 6:50 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Here's a thought: why do we even have nuclear power plants above ground, anyway?

When they test nuclear weapons, they drill into a solid granite stock and the bury it before they set it off. When people are doing experiments with particle accelerators, they do them below ground.

If you absolutely have to have nuclear power plants, and your public doesn't want to individualize their power supply with something more manageable, why in HELL do you build them above ground?



Because a bomb is an uncontrolled reaction and no one is trying to harness its power.

A nuclear generator is a controlled reaction that generates heat and runs a steam engine, which requires water and the release of steam.

Underground it would just melt and poison the earth and be difficult to control. A nuclear meltdown is nothing like a nuclear bomb.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 7:01 AM

BYTEMITE


None of those things suggest to me that a reactor has to be above ground. It seems like you could control temperatures above ground just as well as below ground. Water is EVERYWHERE below ground, far more than is at the surface. You just have to pump it out of the ground/walls.

You could have steam vents that go to the surface.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 8:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

And yes, we are a strange little species. Capable of screwing things up for us, to some degree, but nature is always there to bitch slap mankind, and remind us all how insignificant and puny we are on the grand scale.
Yes, she is, and I hope she always will be...

Ahhh, thank you Byte. Yes, that’s it. There are places in Marin where you can SEE where the last big San Andreas was, tho’ by now the grass has overgrown it in most places...it’s eerie to see.

As to build-up, who knows? We’ve supposedly been “overdue” for “the big one” for decades on the San Andreas---but the Loma Prieta 7.9 was the HAYWARD Faul (an offshoot of the S.A.)t, so we’re still “overdue”. I don’t think Nature keeps to man’s timetable, if you know what I mean... It kinda comes down to “seismologists say the guess...” rather than “seismologists say...” in the end, really, y’know?

Mmmm, Mammoth. Yes...Jim’s son lives there, and actually they’ve decided now it’s not a fault after all:
Quote:

this sizable fissure is not an earthquake fault caused by a single quake, as the name implies. Geologists now believe it is a system of fractures formed during a series of strong quakes when the Inyo Craters and Inyo Domes erupted centuries ago.
It IS certainly, however, a volcanic area, with hot springs; Mammoth Mountain itself being the central volcano, which has been dormant for 50,000-some years. They get lots of little shakers all the time...and of course it’s near Yosemite and it’s glacier-cut geology, too, and Yosemite gets shakers and has nearby hot springs. Mammoth is part of the Long Valley Caldera, which includes the famous, weird-looking Mono Lake, an inland salt “sea” which was cut off ages ago, creating all those weird “sculptures”, still an active volcanic area.


Jeff sends us lots of stuff on Mammoth, he adores it up there. Tough to make a living, tho’, as its economy is based on tourism...mostly Winter. But he’s taken all kinds of jobs, just to stay there...it IS gorgeous, less populous, and is covered with hiking trails and great skiing. Just look up “Mammoth Lakes Pictures” and you’ll wanna move there, too!

I don’t remember enough of the details about the San Andreas, some of it sticks in my head but of course the old memory ain’t what it was in college...but yes, it’s a strike-slip. As a child I lived in the hills of San Mateo over Crystal Springs Reservoir, which is a filled-in remnant of the fault line:
Quote:

Like all transform plate boundaries, the San Andreas is a strike-slip fault, movement along which is dominantly horizontal. Specifically, the San Andreas fault zone separates the Pacific and North American Plates, which are slowly grinding past each other in a roughly north-south direction. The Pacific Plate (western side of the fault) is moving horizontally in a northerly direction relative to the North American Plate (eastern side of the fault). Evidence of the sideways shift of these two landmasses can be found all along the fault zone, as seen from the differences in topography, geologic structures, and, sometimes, vegetation of the terrain from one side of the fault to the other. For example, the San Andreas runs directly along Crystal Springs Reservoir on the San Francisco Peninsula. Topographically, this reservoir fills a long, straight, narrow valley that was formed by erosion of the easily erodible rocks mashed within the fault zone.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/tectonics.html

That stuff about the differences is really true up on the Pt. Reyes Peninsula. It’s part of the Pacific plate, and the terrain out there is VERY different from the rest of the North American Plate...it’s actually kinda eerie.

Now, L.A.’s more recent Northridge earthquake did not directly involve movement along one of the strands of the San Andreas Fault system. It was on the Santa Monica Mountains Thrust Fault, a little guy who IS a thrust fault.
Quote:

With a thrust fault, whose plane is inclined to the Earth's surface, one side moves upward over the other. Movement along a blind thrust fault does not break the ground surface, thus making it difficult or impossible to map these hidden but potentially dangerous faults...scientists have not found any conclusive evidence of ground rupture from the 1994 Northridge earthquake.
Tricky little devils!

Between our faults, Lake Tahoe, Yellowstone, Mono & Mammoth’s “Long Valley Caldera”, Mt. Shasta, Mt. Lassen, CA is a pretty “lively” geothermic/tectonic place for ‘quakes, hot springs, dormant volcanoes, etc. Lotsa fun!

And ahh, yes, and then there’s Yellowstone; as Frem says, everything else pales in comparison. For the non-Yanks among us, that’s an area in Wyoming famous for it’s geysers and hot springs, biiiig tourist attraction. It’s a whole other kettle of fish, and a BIG one! The Caldera itself measures about 34 miles (55 km) by 45 miles (72 km), and yeah, if/when SHE blows, that’s about it for us. There’s a great semi-documentary called “Supervolcano” which I love...it’s essentially a movie about how her supervolcano would go off and what it would do to ALL of us. Pretty impressive. By “all of us”, I mean even you Brits and Ozzies...it would be a global disaster. Yellowstone Caldera gets between1000 and 2000 measurable earthquakes a year (mostly 3 or weaker) and is a VERY active tectonic and hydrothermic area. They get earthquake “swarms”, just to make your skin crawl:
Quote:

In 1985, more than 3000 earthquakes were measured over several months...December 2008-January 2009, more than 500 quakes were detected under the northwest end of Yellowstone Lake over a seven day span... 1620 small earthquakes between January 17 and February 1 of last year
(none of the above over a 4, tho’.)

But let’s not forget the New Madrid out in Missouri; if SHE goes, that’s about it, period, for the Midwest! I’m guessing it wouldn’t impact the rest of the world, like a Yellowstone Supervolcano would, but it would sure make a mess of US!
Quote:

In a report filed in November 2008, The U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency warned that a 7.7 earthquake in the New Madrid Seismic Zone could result in "the highest economic losses due to a natural disaster in the United States," further predicting "widespread and catastrophic" damage across Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri and particularly Tennessee. According to some scientists, however, that is nothing compared to what an 8.0 earthquake could do to the New Madrid Region.
Wikipedia

Given Japan (which has awakened fears of earthquakes everywhere), as well as recent events (like those dead birds), some Midwesterners are seeing their own little “end of the world” scenario possibly coming.
Quote:

Thousands of birds are falling dead from the skies, tens of thousands of fish are washing up on shore dead, earthquakes are popping up in weird and unexpected places and people are starting to get really freaked out about all of this. Well, one theory is that the New Madrid fault zone is coming to life. The New Madrid fault zone is six times bigger than the San Andreas fault zone in California. The biggest earthquakes in the history of the United States were caused by the New Madrid fault. Now there are fears that the New Madrid fault zone could be coming to life again, and if a "killer earthquake" does strike it could change all of our lives forever.
http://globalrumblings.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-madrid-fault-quake-zon
e-coming-to.html


People worry about the San Andreas, but look at the New Madrid in comparison:


Some of the signs they’re pointing to as potential harbingers:

--More than 3,000 red-wing blackbirds fell out of the sky dead in the Arkansas town of Beebe on New Year's Eve.

--Large numbers of dead birds were also found in Kentucky right around Christmas.

--Approximately 500 dead blackbirds and starlings were also recently discovered in Pointe Coupee Parish, Louisiana.

--Approximately 100,000 fish washed up dead on the shores of the Arkansas River just last week.

We humans just love to look at this stuff and postulate and theorize, but who really knows? The potentials are there all over the world...as we’ve clearly seen the past couple of years!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 14, 2011 8:57 AM

CANTTAKESKY

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Monday, March 14, 2011 9:35 AM

HARDWARE


New Madrid quake of 1811 made church bells ring in Boston. No estimate on the size, but consider that the Mississippi flowed north during the quake. A comparable quake now, with all the population living in buildings built with no thinking of seismic protection, God, the loss of life could be in the millions.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Monday, March 14, 2011 2:49 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SO, I wondered... since hydrogen is produced by the destruction of fuel rod "cladding" (Zirconium + steam + heat = zirconium oxide powder + hydrogen) and three of the plants have suffered repeated hydrogen explosions, I thought I would try pencil-whipping the amount of hydrogen produced, and therefore the amount of "cladding" that has been destroyed, and therefore provide an estimate of fuel rod damage.

Each reactor building (not containment vessel, reactor building) looks like like it has a footprint of at least 70' X 70" and about 120' high. The lower explosive limit for hydrogen (the minimum concentration required for an explosion) is 4%, so I calculated that there must have been AT LEAST 67,000 liters of hydrogen involved with each explosion. That equates to AT LEAST 6000 pounds of zirconium destroyed before each explosion. Multiply by four (for each explosion). That's not counting the hydrogen that just leaked away without exploding, and assuming that the hydrogen didn't build up higher before exploding.

So at least 24,000 pounds (12 tons) of Zr cladding was destroyed, but that could be higher by a factor of 10 or even more.

That's a lot of cladding.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So if you're interested... not that anyone is... here are the calculations

Internal volume:
70' X 70' X 120' = 588000 cubic feet
588,000 cubic feet X 28.3 liters per cubic foot= 16,640,400 liters (I'm a chemist, I think in liters)

Minimum amount of hydrogen in that volume (4% LEL)
16,640,400 liters X 0.04 = 666,000 liters of pure hydrogen
With approximately 22.4 liters per mole (a "mole" is a numeric count of molecules, kind of like a "dozen" but much much larger), that would mean

16,640,400/ 22.4 = 29700 moles of hydrogen

Amount of zirconium destroyed
Since each "mole" of hydrogen produced indicates that one "mole" of zirconium was destroyed
29700 "moles" of zirconium were destroyed.
But who the h@ll thinks in "moles" except a chemist? To put this in terms we all understand... one "mole" of Zirconium is 91 grams, that means

2704100 * 91 = 2704100 grams of zirconium
At 454 grams per pound, that's

2704100/ 454 = 5960 pounds of zirconium fuel rod "cladding" destroyed (minimum)

per explosion

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Monday, March 14, 2011 4:58 PM

BYTEMITE


Ooh, math! :D

Nicely done Sig.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 6:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BAD TO WORSE

SOMA, Japan — Radiation leaked from a crippled nuclear plant in tsunami-ravaged northeastern Japan after a third reactor was rocked by an explosion Tuesday and a fourth caught fire in a dramatic escalation of the 4-day-old catastrophe. The government warned anyone nearby to stay indoors to avoid exposure.

In a nationally televised statement, Prime Minister Naoto Kan said radiation has spread from four reactors of the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant in Fukushima province, one of the hardest-hit in Friday's 9.0-magnitude earthquake and the ensuing tsunami that has killed more than 10,000 people.

"The level seems very high, and there is still a very high risk of more radiation coming out," Kan said. "We are making utmost efforts to prevent further explosions and radiation leaks."

This is the worst nuclear crisis Japan has faced since the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II. It is also the first time that such a grave nuclear threat has been raised in the world since a nuclear power plant in Chernobyl, Russia exploded in 1986.

Kan warned there are dangers of more leaks and told people living within 19 miles (30 kilometers) of the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex to stay indoors to avoid radiation sickness. Some 180,000 people had already been evacuated from a 12-mile (20-kilometer) radius and it was not immediately clear how many people live in the outer radius for which the new warning was issued.

Three reactors at the power plant were in critical condition after Friday's quake, losing their ability to cool down and releasing some radiation. A fourth reactor that was unoperational caught fire on Tuesday and more radiation was released, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said.

The fire was put out. Even though it was unoperational, the fourth reactor was believed to be the source of the elevated radiation release because of the hydrogen release that triggered the fire.

--------------

In THIS case, the explosion was in the containment vessel itself. Fission products are being released, which means fuel rods have broken open.

I hate being right.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 7:05 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, it's been pretty obvious from the beginning here that the reassurances have just been PR to keep the affected population from panicking.

Of course, that doesn't make the reassurances from the guys around here trying to build a nuclear power plant on the green river within a stones throw from the hurricane fault any easier to palate. I mean, I get that they've convinced themselves, so they have something to prove that it's safe, but it seems pretty inappropriate when we're watching people get sick from radiation poisoning elsewhere.

I have another friend with family in Japan, she still hasn't heard any news from them. We're hoping it's just because the phone and power is out.

How long before you think it'll go full meltdown? Or do you think that was the final steam explosion phase? If there's corium, do you think that adding sea water for coolant may have increased the risks in the long run for a containment breach?

Maybe they're just buying time so some of the worse contamination can decay before release, which would mean a lower radiation dose.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 8:45 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I imagine the people in Japan feel like the end of the world is nye with all that's going on there right now. What a rutting mess.

I'm talking to Jennifer again tomorrow but on Fri. evening she said Eureka faired fine, they closed downtown but it didn't interfere with her work etc. I'll have a better idea tomorrow, but it wasn't anything like Crescent City. It worries me a lot that when her husband woke up to the tsunami alarms he went downstairs, looked out side, saw that "it wasn't wet" and then went back to bed, never even waking her up, that worries me, have I mentioned that I don't like him?

CTS, I didn't really find your pilot-getting-boxcuttered comment worth a snicker, didn't seem funny to me.

Scary situation.

In OR we are in a fairly dangerous position, we're right along the ring of fire with the Juan de Fuca plate, plus we've got a bunch of sleeping volcanoes all around us, with the Cascades and Mt. Saint Helens, which was active again about 7 years ago, had some minor activity with little erruptions etc. So we're humped if we get hit bad. We've had two sizable earthquakes in my life time. One when I was six and one when I was fifteen, the latter measured 6.9 or 7.0 as I recall, not much damage fortunately, but if we get a big one it will cause lots of trouble and wake up our mountains etc. I don't even want to think about yellowstone.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:48 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I haven’t listened to the news yet today...kind of hesitant to do so, considering yesterday’s developments...

But ahother concern I didn't catch anyone else mentioning yet is previous cover-ups and scandals by the owners and operators of these nuclear facilities and by the Japanese government:
Quote:

On August 29, 2002, the government of Japan revealed that TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company) was guilty of false reporting in routine governmental inspection of its nuclear plants and systematic concealment of plant safety incidents. All seventeen of its boiling-water reactors were shut down for inspection as a result. TEPCO's chairman Hiroshi Araki, President Nobuya Minami, Vice-President Toshiaki Enomoto, as well as the advisers Sho Nasu and Gaishi Hiraiwa stepped-down by September 30, 2002.[6] The utility "eventually admitted to two hundred occasions over more than two decades between 1977 and 2002, involving the submission of false technical data to authorities".[7] Upon taking over leadership responsibilities, TEPCO's new president issued a public commitment that the company would take all the countermeasures necessary to prevent fraud and restore the nation's confidence. By the end of 2005, generation at suspended plants had been restarted, with government approval.

In 2007, however, the company announced to the public that an internal investigation had revealed a large number of unreported incidents. These included an unexpected unit criticality in 1978 and additional systematic false reporting, which had not been uncovered during the 2002 inquiry. Along with scandals at other Japanese electric companies, this failure to ensure corporate compliance resulted in strong public criticism of Japan's electric power industry and the nation's nuclear energy policy. Again, the company made no effort to identify those responsible.

Wikipedia
Quote:

TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company), which operates the failing nuclear power plants at Fukushima, has a history of scandals associated with its nuclear power operations. In 2002, one set of such scandals became so severe that the president, vice president and chairman of the company all resigned in disgrace. Most disturbing in this regard is that the scandal related to TEPCO hiding evidence of cracks in the containment vessels of their nuclear reactors. Also possibly related to the current crisis is one report I have found of Toshiba providing faulty gauges that are used in monitoring the reactor coolant systems.

These comments date from 2006 and suggests that the 2002 scandal included the Fukushima Number One (or Fukushima Daiichi) unit number three, which had a hydrogen explosion Monday morning:
Quote:

It is very intentionally late. Toshiba Corp should open it in 2002. 2002 TEPCO’s scandal began from many breaks of Fukushima phase I unit 3 by Toshiba Corp on Aug 23, 2002.
Perhaps even more fascinating, though, is that this person claims that Toshiba supplied faulty gauges to TEPCO and that these gauges were used to monitor coolant flow to reactors:
Quote:

When Toshiba Corp replaced meters supplied water for reactor ????? at TEPCO’s Nuclear Plant Fukushima phase I unit 6 in 1993, about the equipments Toshiba Corp altered examination data for TEPCO’s standard data. In Sep 2005 TEPCO ordered Toshiba Corp to confirm that and in Nov 2005 Toshiba Corp was heard the fact from 2 persons of Toshiba’s nuclear power design section.
But Toshiba Corp says the equipments are safty and Toshiba Corp doesn’t do the same in other plants. From Dec 2005 Toshiba Corp orders a 3rd company to check the examination about meters supplied water for reactor ?????

This is a very important point, because the current crisis appears to have been exacerbated by problems with gauges in the coolant systems. From today’s New York Times:
Quote:

Workers inside the reactors saw that levels of coolant water were dropping. They did not know how severely. “The gauges that measure the water level don’t appear to be giving accurate readings,” one American official said.

http://my.firedoglake.com/jimwhite/2011/03/14/tepco-has-scandal-plague
d-past
/

Given the history of TEPCO and the possible minimizing of what’s happening, who knows what to actually believe? I suppose we MAY find out eventually, especially if it gets worse...

The thing is, things are only as safe as the people who build them and THEIR conscience. That doesn't bode too well for the nuclear power industry, in my opinion.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:00 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
CTS, I didn't really find your pilot-getting-boxcuttered comment worth a snicker, didn't seem funny to me.

My "snicker" was so you'd know I was being sarcastic and rolling my eyes. (Obviously, it failed its purpose.)

I don't really believe an Air Force Vietnam veteran got hijacked by a boxcutter. I find the idea ridiculous beyond belief. So do many pilots who knew him. It's like saying Rambo go hijacked by a boxcutter. Seriously?

I wasn't mocking the Air Force Vietnam vet. My sarcasm was supposed to indicate the opposite. It is sort of an inside joke, I suppose, for all those here who know my position on the 9/11 official story.




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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:08 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I haven’t heard it go past 8.9...where did you hear/read that?



http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc0001xgp.p
hp




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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:25 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, I hadn't listened to the TV much yesterday (bad girl; too much internet time), but last night I heard it had been upgraded to 9.0. Jezus, each tenth is actually a BIG upgrade...a nine is something else!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Fukushima reactors 1,2, and 3 have had explosions.

# 2 appears to be the worst, with the inner containment shell likely being breached ( serious high grade suck here )

# 4 reactor building is now on fire.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



This explains things fairly well, I think...


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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:49 PM

CANTTAKESKY


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110315/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake

For those old enough to remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I can't imagine what they are going through.





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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 3:19 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Sorry CTS, I didn't mean to misunderstand. It did seem odd that you would say that in malice or meanness. I think you're right about people who survived the atomic bomb, this has got to be especially scary for them because they know first hand what can happen.

The news says that everyone has been evacuated from within 20 miles of the plant and everyone is supposed to stay inside until otherwise specified.

Niki, as for your cover up examples, unfortunately that is all too common, people cut corners, crossing their fingers that they won't get caught, but sometimes disasters happen and that's when they get caught red handed. Its sad that people do this but I think it happens everywhere, probably because of laziness/carelessness.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Riona, of course I know that...look at the Gulf spill. But when it comes to NU-CLE-AR (gawd I'm sick to death of the damned REPORTERS saying nucular!), the dangers are huge, and it's the responsibility of the government to make sure things are done properly. It's why I'm pretty convinced, given ALL six of the reactors/fuel rod housings are having such serious problems, that it's the government that needs to be held accountable, along with TEPCO.

Businesses will cut every corner possible to increase profits, many of them have no conscience about the safety of the public OR their employees. I'd like to hear anyone anti-government come up with a VIABLE way to at least TRY to ensure that they obey the law and behave responsibly. Sure, the government doesn't do nearly as good a job as it should and sometimes does it WRONG...but tell me what OTHER method--VIABLE method--there is to keep them in check.

Most recent news I'm hearing (aside from further fires/explosions--there have been so many it doesn't seem worth keeping track anymore--is that they're ROTATING crews of 50 to deal with it, and again the mention that last night they evacuated everyone for a short time. That's a...what, "relief"?...at least to know they're not just abandoning it.

What a horrific situation, poor Japanese people, they've actually been hit FOUR times: earthquake, tsunami, nucLEAR, volcano. Their karma sure has gone to shit!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Businesses will cut every corner possible to increase profits, many of them have no conscience about the safety of the public OR their employees. I'd like to hear anyone anti-government come up with a VIABLE way to at least TRY to ensure that they obey the law and behave responsibly. Sure, the government doesn't do nearly as good a job as it should and sometimes does it WRONG...but tell me what OTHER method--VIABLE method--there is to keep them in check.




CLASSIC Dunning-Kruger effect going on here. These comments have Z-E-R-O to do w/ the events at hand.

9.0 earthquake - reactors held. Power goes out, back up power kicks in.

Several meters high tsunami hits, knocks out power to secondary cooling system. The wave submerged the diesel engine which provided power.

A third back up system fails, due to lack of water...

Where the hell does heartless, big business cutting cost have any damn thing to do with this catastrophe ?

You live in a fantasy world, where government either does or does not exist , and that some how a massive 6 reactor nuclear plant gets built and inspected , then goes on line w / out any say so by ANY governing body,what so ever.

And as for being hit 4 times, you left out one... an earthen dam burst, washing away hundreds of homes. And also there was an oil refinery engulf in flames.... I think selling Japan a bit short in the misery meter.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:39 AM

BYTEMITE



I guess you didn't read Niki's post up above, which, I guess makes sense, the two of you do fight a lot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TEPCO#Scandal

Sounds to me like faults that were covered up in the containment were a big part of why it's failing so bad right now. The cut off of the diesel power to the coolant engine was just the catalyst, this was always an accident waiting to happen.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:57 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Byte... it was a freaking 9.0 quake, followed by a 10 meter high tsunami....

Blame big business! Capitalism bad! Government good !

Good googily moogily.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:03 PM

BYTEMITE


...Yes, because I'm clearly very pro-government. Look, maybe you're still a little miffed because I corrected you on something on another thread, but I apologized once already and this is more important than that.

So, entry on the wikipedia article for the company in question that says in big letters "SCANDAL." Any thoughts on that?

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
...Yes, because I'm clearly very pro-government. Look, maybe you're still a little miffed because I corrected you on something on another thread, but I apologized once already and this is more important than that.

So, entry on the wikipedia article for the company in question that says in big letters "SCANDAL." Any thoughts on that?



I was referring to Niki, not so much you. So, not miffed. Not at you.

Thoughts ? Yeah, the Fukushima plant was doing fine, until there was a 100 year quake and massive tsunami.


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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:11 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

I was referring to Niki, not so much you. So, not miffed. Not at you.

Thoughts ? Yeah, the Fukushima plant was doing fine, until there was a 100 year quake and massive tsunami.




'Kay. I know it can get rough here for you. I do actually try not to add to that, anymore than I try to avoid adding to other people who are regularly in the line of fire.

Yeah, I mean obviously the earthquake and the tsunami had an impact, but it also concerns me that the reactor in question has had a critical accident years before, and it was hushed up.

Of course, that only works if both government and the industry were in on it, because it's not as if the government isn't inspecting this stuff and aware. Rather like in the gulf.

Still. It's an issue, and one that I think is going to have some tragic consequences over the next days or weeks.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 12:22 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ignoring the rest of your bullshit:
Quote:

Where the hell does heartless, big business cutting cost have any damn thing to do with this catastrophe ?
It's a viable question, given their problems and cover-ups in the past. JUST like BP. Where there is a record of accidents minimized and covered up, it's only natural to question, when 6 out of 6 plants have problems, if there might be something to it.

"What Byte said". There's nothing fantasy or stupid about it. The government was involved in some of the cover-ups, and the Prime Minister has been reported as being FURIOUS at TEPCO for things having to do with the current problems.

Also, that's the second mention I've seen about you and I fighting. They're right; I shouldn't bother. Henceforth I will try HARD to respond to your faleshoods and idiocy ONCE; beyond that is just a waste of effort.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:24 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think what Niki, me and Byte are trying to say is that Japan is prone to earthquakes and difficulties of that variety, now granted this was bigger and badder than anything before, but you'd think they'd have a lot of backup/emergency systems for those reactors, they'd have to or else they'd be really stupid. So all I can conclude is that the horrible natural disasters killed the main protection systems and the backup plans/systems weren't maintained properly the way they should be in case of this kind of thing. I agree that the company probably isn't telling the world all that is really going on because they are embarassed, they know this is partly due to their poor maintainance practices and they don't want the world to know that they made horrid mistakes. I agree that it is the earthquake that has caused the disaster, but I think poor maintainance of emergency systems has greatly compounded it so its as bad as it is now.
God save Japan.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Shit happens. Man can no more control nature than.... Obama can stay off the golf course. It's just not gonna happen.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:38 PM

USBROWNCOAT


LOL

You do have a point. Build a plant to withstand anything we can think of and then shit happens. They should just build all n.plants to withstand 9.9 earthquakes and tsunamis. That works for me. End of story.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 4:43 PM

HKCAVALIER


(ETA: Hey USB, did you edit your post to make it clearer? When I read it the first time I thought you were poopooing preparedness, but now it's clear that you're onboard. Sorry, I missunderstood!)

I think it's pretty reasonable to demand a nuclear reactor in Japan to be able to withstand a 9.9 earthquake, which if you're in Japan is practically guaranteed to come with it's own tsunami. Where does one set the upper limit of preparedness? 6.0? 7?

Here's the thing: This meltdown could end up killing more people than the tsunami. And be killing people for years to come. It's something, in short, that you never want to have happen. Unlike an earthquake, it's something we have real control over. An earthquake of 9 or above is, pretty much, inevitable, in Japan--it's gonna happen at some point. So it happens once in 100 years. Y'know, a hundred years goes by pretty quick in the lifetime of a corporation. Did TEPCO have some plan to shut the reactor down after 50 years or some such that we haven't heard about to avoid any 9+ earthquakes? Building a reactor where they did was courting disaster.

I think nuclear reactors should be able to withstand inevitable natural occurrences, or they should not be built. I'm not talking about a "freak accident" here, I'm talking about the inevitable.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, May 9, 2023 2:48 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Aftershocks shake Japan after quake kills one, destroys homes

https://mb.com.ph/2023/5/7/aftershocks-shake-japan-after-quake-kills-o
ne-destroys-homes

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