REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Regarding Japan's nuclear power plants

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, March 24, 2011 17:18
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 1974
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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This is for whoever argued that a huge earthquake followed by a tsunami was the sole reason the Fuckushima plant had so much trouble:
Quote:

The operator of the nuclear reactors and power plants on the northern coast of Japan has a documented history of errors and cover-ups and, according to anti-nuclear activists, a pattern of hiding the truth when things go wrong.

Amidst the confusion and uncertainty surrounding the exact nature of the stress and damage at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, even Japan's Prime Minister, Naota Kan, was overheard demanding from officials of the Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) why the company withheld some information from the government.

Those reported comments were in themselves unusual because in the past, critics say, there has been close cooperation between the two.

"The history of the Japanese nuclear industry and the government is that is very tight and is less than glorious in regard to public information and full disclosure," Arjun Mahkijani told CNN

"These events are unprecedented," he said, "and there's every reason to believe TEPCO has not told the entire truth of what's been happening."

TEPCO officials deny they have been hiding critical data from the Japanese government.

But there's a detailed history of just those kinds of events in the recent past.

In 2002, the president of TEPCO and four other executives resigned when it was discovered that repair and inspection records at the Fukushima plant had been doctored. The company admitted "dishonest practices" after an internal investigation.

"It was discovered that TEPCO had covered up incidents of cracking of an important piece of equipment in all of its reactors and as a result, they were forced to shut down all 17 of their reactors," anti-nuclear activist Phillip White told CNN. White is the English-language liaison for an organization called Citizens Nuclear Information Center (CNIC), Japan's largest anti-nuclear organization.

"There was a pattern that emerged that TEPCO isn't frank and deliberately covers up to protect its own interests," he said.

In 2007, an 6.8-magnitude earthquake struck western Japan and affected another plant owned by TEPCO. The company reported only a minor fire but later, admitted that the fire had burned for two hours and that hundreds of gallons of radioactive water had leaked into the sea.

"The plant simply wasn't designed for the level of earthquake that took place, " Mahkijani told CNN. "They were very lucky not to have a bigger disaster then."

Against that background is what White and other anti-nuclear activists say is a far too-cozy relationship between Japanese nuclear regulators and power plant operators like TEPCO.

The chief regulatory agency is called Nuclear Industrial and Safety Agency (NISA), but it does not, according to critics, operate at an arms-length distance from the industry it is charged with regulating. NISA is part of the giant Japanese Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (METI). That ministry is charged, among other things, with selling Japanese technology (including nuclear technology) abroad.

"There's no true regulation of the Japanese nuclear industry," Phillip White told CNN. "It's just an amiable fiction."

NISA approved a 10-year extension for the life of the oldest of the six reactors at Fukushima Daiichi just before the earthquake struck. This, despite allegations that safety at the reactor in question had been questioned.

TEPCO admitted on its website that it had failed to properly inspect 33 pieces of equipment related to the cooling systems at the reactor, and told CNN that everything that needed to be addressed has been done. It said it would take corrective action in the future to prevent similar problems from occurring.

Nuclear experts tell CNN that the reactors are now almost certainly inoperable in the future.

As one physicist, Dr. Kenneth Bergeron, told CNN, "It's a very frightening situation. And we can only hope for the best."

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/japan.nuclear.operator
s/index.html?hpt=Sbin


Most likely we have some of the same problems here in the US. The question arises as to how much good it does to police our own nuclear energy if other countries don't?

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:31 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


On the subject of our own:
Quote:

Submerged in 40-ft.-deep (12 m) tanks of blue, boron-infused water, nearly 50,000 tons of spent nuclear fuel are stored near the 104 nuclear reactors in the U.S. Industry officials say it is perfectly safe to keep there. "You can stand right above a fuel pool" and not get sick, says Tom Kaufman, a spokesman for the Nuclear Energy Institute, which represents the nuclear-power industry.

Safe or not, spent-fuel storage will be a significant part of a 90-day review of U.S. nuclear reactors expected to be conducted by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in coming months. Instigated in the wake of the disaster in Japan, that probe will include an investigation into the ability of U.S. nuclear plants to deal with total power loss and natural disasters.

When power to the pumps that flush cooling tanks with water is cut off, the zirconium cladding on hot spent fuel rods can ignite, pumping radiation into the air. Nuclear experts fear that might happen at the Fukushima plant in Japan, and watchdogs say that under similarly catastrophic circumstances, the same thing could happen at U.S. plants. "If we go down that same road, we are likely to reach that same destination," says David Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists.

Storage sites have fail-safes in the event that power is lost, but they're not foolproof. "If the emergency diesel generators are lost — which is the backup power source — the cooling systems for the spent-fuel pools don't have battery capacity," says Lochbaum. "So you have to get either the diesels back or the electrical grid back in order to restore cooling." Rod McCullum, the director of used-fuels programs at the Nuclear Energy Institute, says backup systems in Japan and the U.S. "are highly similar."

Though the stakes are significant — the Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island, N.Y., estimated in 1997 that a massive calamity at one spent-fuel pool could ultimately lead to 138,000 deaths and contaminate 2,000 sq. mi. (5,200 sq km) of land — government officials insist a worst-case scenario is incredibly unlikely, even in the course of extreme events. "We believe that the spent-fuel pools, these are very robust structures that are designed to withstand the type of natural phenomena that we have seen in Japan," Gregory Jaczko, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission chairman, told C-SPAN on Sunday.

There are 31 reactors in the U.S. where spent fuel is stored in "attic" pools above the reactor like those at the Fukushima plant in Japan. At the other 73 reactors, the spent fuel is stored in tanks housed in buildings adjacent to the operating reactors. Storage tanks are made of steel and reinforced with concrete; all of them are designed to withstand earthquakes that might typically occur within a 200-mile (320 km) radius.

Industry critics don't quibble with the claim that the spent-fuel pools themselves would likely survive an earthquake, but worry that it's the power grid and backup generators that are unsafe. Several plants sit near powerful fault lines, including the Diablo Canyon facility near San Luis Obispo in California, and the San Onofre plant about halfway between Los Angeles and San Diego. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo this month ordered a safety review of the Indian Point plant in Westchester County, which sits on the intersection of two faults, just 24 miles (40 km) upriver from New York City. Even without natural disaster, the Union of Concerned Scientists reports that there were 14 nuclear "near misses" at U.S. plants in 2010 alone.

Safety concerns remain even after the fuel is cooled, a process that takes a minimum of five years. Still highly radioactive, cool fuel is stored in steel-reinforced concrete casks that sit out in the open on concrete slabs. There are about 15,000 tons of it currently sitting at nuclear power plants across the country. The casks aren't really supposed to be there. Under a 1987 law, the Department of Energy is tasked with transporting that fuel to a proposed repository at Yucca Mountain in Nevada. But protests from environmentalists, residents of the state and many politicians have delayed the site's opening repeatedly. Without a long-term viable option for fuel storage, industry critics worry the risks will only increase.

The coming review from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is unlikely to put the issue of nuclear safety and spent-fuel pools to rest. Watchdog groups like the Union of Concerned Scientists contend that the similarity between nuclear systems in Japan and the U.S. shows just how vulnerable nuclear plants are to catastrophe. And while nuclear-industry representatives insist that a Fukushima-scale disaster is unlikely in the U.S., they too are watching how Japanese and American officials are responding to the incident. "We are all going to learn something from this," says the Nuclear Energy Institute's McCullum.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2060880,00.html#ixzz1HS
7f3C6Z



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 9:33 AM

KANEMAN


Liar.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:23 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


We keep being told that "it couldn't happen here."

It could. So many of our reactors here were built shoddily, and are maintained with little to no supervision or care. Diablo Canyon's backup cooling system was out of commission for 18 months because of a stuck valve, and it's basically sitting on top of an active fault line. But yeah, "it couldn't happen here."

Sure it couldn't. Until it does.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:31 PM

MOCKROMANCER


What do you suppose we should do? Disassemble them and throw away the parts? The brightside you ask? The main cooling system was pretty stellar for 18 months. Not too shoddy.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 2:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



That would be me, and I still stand by my original statement. This plant withstood a greater quake than it was designed for, and then took a shot in the chops from a tsunami.

Sorry, but the China Syndrome was 100% bogus, and the Left's attempt to derail nuclear power in this country, and the rest of the world. Sucks for Japan, but the hype over this event is mind bottling.


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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Mockromancer:
What do you suppose we should do? Disassemble them and throw away the parts? The brightside you ask? The main cooling system was pretty stellar for 18 months. Not too shoddy.




Well, the main cooling system did what it was supposed to do. The backup didn't, but it wasn't required to. It's there solely as a "backup", in case the main system goes out, due to... oh, you know... an earthquake, or a tsunami, or a huge power outage... things like that. Had any of those happened at Diablo Canyon, it most likely would have undergone what Fukushima is undergoing - at least a partial meltdown.


What should we do? Build better. Oversee more. Don't assume nothing bad will ever happen. Don't assume anything. Especially, don't assume a 7.5 earthquake is the only thing you'll ever face, or even the worst thing.

History is full of things happening that people were sure couldn't happen.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

That would be me, and I still stand by my original statement. This plant withstood a greater quake than it was designed for, and then took a shot in the chops from a tsunami.

Sorry, but the China Syndrome was 100% bogus, and the Left's attempt to derail nuclear power in this country, and the rest of the world. Sucks for Japan, but the hype over this event is mind bottling.





Mind-bottling? So do you keep your mind in a bottle?

And at least three of the four reactors at this plant didn't exactly "withstand" any of this particularly well. Unless you consider Chernobyl a shining example of a great design withstanding a stress test.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:56 PM

HARDWARE


Here to go Kwicko. Here's a nice graphical file for you to try to understand the levels of radiation we are talking about.

I don't really expect this to unwad your panties. I think they are going to be in a perpetual wad whenever it comes to nuclear power.
www.xkcd.com/radiation



The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:03 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Fascinating, sleeping with two people equals the dose of eating one banana.

Now I have done both of these, but the threesome results in a decidedly different glow

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 5:51 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

That would be me, and I still stand by my original statement. This plant withstood a greater quake than it was designed for, and then took a shot in the chops from a tsunami.

Sorry, but the China Syndrome was 100% bogus, and the Left's attempt to derail nuclear power in this country, and the rest of the world. Sucks for Japan, but the hype over this event is mind bottling.




Energy industry co-opted environment and peace movements to stop nuclear power. Didn't really think hippies had that kind of power did you?

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:12 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Unfortunately it tkaes mistakes and disasters for people to figure stuff out and learn how to do things better. I hope that the people who run nuclear plants here learn the lesson that this whole thing offers, maintain your equipment, don't take short cuts, don't underestimate the earth and natural forces.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 7:35 AM

BYTEMITE


If both girls eat bananas first, why, then that's three bananas.

I fully endorse either calling nocturnal activity "bananas" or using the banana as a new standard measurement of radioactive dose. Proper use of the term banana includes "I had the most wild night, it was bananas" or "Fukushima was three-hundred-and-sixty bananas".

I haven't been worried about the radiation from Fukushima too much since I did the calculations, though I still feel bad for the Japanese and I still think building in an earthquake zone is unwise.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:00 AM

DREAMTROVE



But the whole country is an earthquake zone. BTW, nice bananarama. "That chick is radioactive" should be a new slang for excessively hot.



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 8:04 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

That would be me, and I still stand by my original statement. This plant withstood a greater quake than it was designed for, and then took a shot in the chops from a tsunami.

Sorry, but the China Syndrome was 100% bogus, and the Left's attempt to derail nuclear power in this country, and the rest of the world. Sucks for Japan, but the hype over this event is mind bottling.





AUrapt, not sure if anyone has told you, but this blue is hard to see. And trust me the liberals here need to see your posts.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 9:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
The operator of the nuclear reactors and power plants on the northern coast of Japan has a documented history of errors and cover-ups and, according to anti-nuclear activists, a pattern of hiding the truth when things go wrong.
....

Those reported comments were in themselves unusual because in the past, critics say, there has been close cooperation between the two.
...

"The history of the Japanese nuclear industry and the government is that is very tight and is less than glorious in regard to public information and full disclosure," Arjun Mahkijani(Past President of Institute for
Energy and Environmental Research, who push a "Carbon-free and Nuclear-free" program) told CNN.
...

"It was discovered that TEPCO had covered up incidents of cracking of an important piece of equipment in all of its reactors and as a result, they were forced to shut down all 17 of their reactors," anti-nuclear activist Phillip White told CNN. White is the English-language liaison for an organization called Citizens Nuclear Information Center (CNIC), Japan's largest anti-nuclear organization.

Against that background is what White and other anti-nuclear activists say is a far too-cozy relationship between Japanese nuclear regulators and power plant operators like TEPCO.
...

As one physicist, Dr. Kenneth Bergeron (of the Union of Concerned Scientists), told CNN, "It's a very frightening situation. And we can only hope for the best."



Not saying one way or the other on the veracity of this story, but it'd be a bit more convincing if pretty much everyone quoted wasn't a confirmed anti-nuclear activist or critic.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hardware:








Not saying one way or the other on the veracity of this graph, but it'd be a bit more convincing if pretty much everyone quoted wasn't a confirmed nuclear apologist or government-paid shill.


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 12:39 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm glad you worked those calculations Byte, I think it was helpful for everyone here and it does indeed relieve us all. But as you said I still feel bad for the people over there, hopefully things will work out as well as possible.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kaneman:

AUrapt, not sure if anyone has told you, but this blue is hard to see. And trust me the liberals here need to see your posts.





Umm.. it's not blue. It's orange red. Least, that's how it shows up on my screen. I mean... blue ? You couldn't get much further away on the color wheel if you tried. Well, perhaps if you'd said 'green'.



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Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:15 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
If both girls eat bananas first, why, then that's three bananas.

I fully endorse either calling nocturnal activity "bananas" or using the banana as a new standard measurement of radioactive dose. Proper use of the term banana includes "I had the most wild night, it was bananas" or "Fukushima was three-hundred-and-sixty bananas".

I haven't been worried about the radiation from Fukushima too much since I did the calculations, though I still feel bad for the Japanese and I still think building in an earthquake zone is unwise.


I really, really should know better than to provoke a fellow Spark, but I just have to know...

Buddy of mine was throwing a hissy about how they keep changing the measurements of radiation so that no one can really comprehend WTF they're talking about, and espoused the notion that all radiation doseages should be stated in "Banana Equivalents" - as in how many you'd have to eat to match that doseage, since apparently Bananas are mildly radioactive or something ?

So, umm... SCIENCE!

Cause I have not a fekkin clue, honestly.
And it gives me an excuse to post this, cause it's bloody hilarious.



BANANA!

Anyways, so what *IS* the comparison for rems/whatever/bananas, eh ?

-Frem

PS. Once upon a time the DOE tried to shovel the notion of radiation being good for people and passing it off as "Sunshine Units" - that didn't work out too well, mind you... despite them succeeding to some degree with the Flouride, one of the most toxic things possible.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:48 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


That video was AWESOME! lol, funniest thing I've seen all day!

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 1:54 PM

BYTEMITE


Depends on the radioactive element, ultimately. If you're talking about gamma rays, rad is equal to a rem is equal to Roentgen. I see a lot of people just simplify to that anyway, simply because of the general conditions you're like to encounter.

And 100 rem is equal to 1 Sv. 100 bananas equals 1 mSV. So 1 banana is 0.001 rem, or it should be... I'll double check my math later.

In any case it's actually a fairly convenient measurement in that it falls in a power of ten along with the other units.

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Thursday, March 24, 2011 5:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Umm.. it's not blue. It's orange red. Least, that's how it shows up on my screen. I mean... blue ? You couldn't get much further away on the color wheel if you tried. Well, perhaps if you'd said 'green'.




It's not.




I know what your tag says, but it shows up BLUE.

I have no idea why.

If I hit "Reply with quote", then in MY post, YOURS will show up orange-red, but what I see in YOUR original post is blue.

And when I hit "reply with quote", the tags in yours say font=orangered, so I don't know what the problem is, but I see it blue. It's a pretty enough blue, but DT's green is much more readable.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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