Flaying the poor, revering the wealthy by SignyM

Quote:
What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?

What did Oprah do, before she earned her money ? Did she lie, cheat ?

Poverty is a mental disease. And it's largely preventable. That's the hard, cold truth of the matter. The homeless are that way because they chose to be that way. Maybe a few were put into tragic situations beyond their control, but those who want to do better by themselves know it's only a temporary set back, and will do what it takes to get back on their feet. Others will simply accept their 'fate', curl up in a bottle and cry that life is cruel.

And you've bought into the lie lock stock and two smoking barrels. For every rags to riches story there are millions of rags to rags story. And the wealthy, the majority of the wealthy in the US are not 'self made' - and I would dispute that term anyway, but inherited wealth.

We've discussed this many times before. For social mobility to take place in any society, you need certain conditions - mineral booms, new frontiers, afttermath of plague, famine, war or social upheaval. Or a society which provides certain conditions for its citizens - social policies which provide some way to providing an equal playing field, not that you'll ever get it entirely and include things like access to decent education, healthcare and some kind of safety net for when things go wrong.

I don't know whether you've ever studied economics, or anything for that matter, but wealth accumulates more wealth. If you are very wealthy, you don't actually have to do anything except employ a decent accountancy team and you will amass more wealth. Despite their huffing and puffing, CEO's of large corps, people employed on inflated salaries in the finance sector, don't work any harder than a teacher or a nurse, or someone who cleans houses. But they get paid more in a year than those people will ever see in a lifetime, two or three lifetimes probably.

If you are poor, the odds are generally stacked against you, in access to housing, education, access to work and healthcare.

I cannot abide this concept that the poor want to be that way. It's an obscene and corrupt mentality and seems only too prevalent in the US.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 1:37 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

What she said. And definitely obscene and corrupt. Yet so many swallow it whole cloth and then spit it back up again like it meant something...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 1:42 PM

Distribution of wealth per citizen - close to 0 more equal the distribution

What causes the differences

Quote:
Economic inequality can decline or increase over time. For example, inequality declined in the U.S. from 1890 to 1940 because the supply of skilled workers outpaced demand, as the high school movement generated skilled workers and border closure reduced the supply of low-skilled immigrants. Inequality increased in the U.S. from 1970 to 2000 with skill-biased technical change. Other factors that increased inequality after 1970 were: the decline of unions in the U.S. with the Taft-Hartley law; the rapid increase in salaries for the top 0.1 %;[3] the increase in business income with technological innovation;[4] the stasis in highschool completion rates at about 70%; and successful changes in Republican political strategies to focus on cultural issues in elections and tax reduction in office, largely beginning with Ronald Reagan.[5]

There are trends in economic equality, trends during eras, countries, economic systems. Demonstating clearly that poverty is not an individual set of circumstances or MINDSET, but due to the system that the individual lives in. By your way of thinking, Auraptor, poor countries are poor because most of their citizens make poor choices and like living in poverty.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 2:09 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?

A several million dollar loan and an "in" thru his mom for a contract with IBM.

You don't even know the history of your own gods.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?
A several million dollar loan and an "in" thru his mom for a contract with IBM.

You don't even know the history of your own gods.

Ho, ho. From wiki

Quote:
Gates was born in Seattle, Washington, to William H. Gates, Sr. and Mary Maxwell Gates, of English, German, and Scotch-Irish descent.[9][10] His family was upper middle class; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate BancSystem and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president. Gates has one elder sister, Kristi (Kristianne), and one younger sister, Libby. He was the fourth of his name in his family, but was known as William Gates III or "Trey" because his father had dropped his own "III" suffix.[11] Early on in his life, Gates' parents had a law career in mind for him.[12] When Gates was young, his family regularly attended a Congregational church.[13][14][15]

At 13 he enrolled in the Lakeside School, an exclusive preparatory school.

Upper middle class boy goes to exclusive school and makes good. Now there is an all american story of triumph!!

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 3:11 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

HAHAHA!

Anyway my point only glancingly involves Rappy, although I'm certainly gratified that he stepped forward to demonstrate the underlying tea-bagger mean-spiritedness.

The REAL problem, and one I hope decent-hearted self-styled libertarians keep in mind is what the Tea Party/ libertarian leadership SAY they want and what they really want are entirely different things.

If you watch the Tea Party, libertarian leadership, and the GOP in general, they offer a series of moving goalposts. This is what they've said, and then done:

------------
We want to cut waste, but we won't cut Medicare. (And then we'll cut Medicare).

We want smaller government, but we'll involve ourselves in your reproductive decisions.

We don't want "death panels", we'd rather kill you by taking away your Medicare coverage.

We're incensed that Obama is shoving everyone into private health care (That's unconstitutional!) but we'll do it with Medicare money ourselves.

Let's give corporations and other "entities" the rights of free speech, and then destroy unions. Because god forbid there should be an alternate vision of America besides America Inc.

We're all about "we the people" until we need to hold secret meetings to pass Legislation that incenses at least half of the people of our state.

We're all about "freedom" until we bring in private security to boot out demonstrators who are exercising their free speech rights.

We really need to rein in the deficit because it will destroy our currency, except that we're willing to reduce it to junk status by flirting with Federal bankruptcy.
----------

With so many mixed messages, so many crises ju jour, so many moving goalposts, by now you should realize that what they SAY is not what they INTEND. Nearly everything that comes out of the libertarian/ tea-bagger leadership is nothing but smoke and mirrors, meant to confuse the gullible and good-hearted. The Big Lie.

But what the sum total of their policies leads to is this: A mass transfer money from the poor to the rich, and power from the individual to the corporations.

That is it. That is their one and only goal. Toss in a little right-wing religious tyranny and some gun-toting jackboots hollering about "freedom" and you've got a match made in... well, hell. The brownshirts aren't that far behind. And yes, they ARE that vile.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 3:17 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
HAHAHA!

Anyway my point only glancingly involves Rappy, although I'm certainly gratified that he stepped forward to demonstrate the underlying tea-bagger mean-spiritedness.

The REAL problem, and one I hope decent-hearted self-styled libertarians keep in mind is what the Tea Party/ libertarian leadership SAY they want and what they really want are entirely different things.

If you watch the Tea Party, libertarian leadership, and the GOP in general, they offer a series of moving goalposts. This is what they've said:

------------
We want to cut waste, but we won't cut Medicare. (And then we'll cut Medicare).

We want smaller government, but we'll involve ourselves in your reproductive decisions.

We don't want "death panels", we'd rather kill you by taking away your Medicare coverage.

We're incensed that Obama is shoving everyone into private health care (That's unconstitutional!) but we'll do it with Medicare money ourselves.

Let's give corporations and other "entities" the rights of free speech, and then destroy unions.

We're all about "we the people" until we need to hold secret meetings to pass Legislation that incenses at least half of the people of our state.

We're all about "freedom" until we bring in private security to boot out demonstrators who are exercising their free speech rights.

We really need to rein in the deficit because it will destroy our currency, except that we're willing to reduce it to junk status by flirting with Federal bankruptcy.
----------

With so many mixed messages, so many crises ju jour, so many moving goalposts, by now you should realize that what they SAY is not what they INTEND. Nearly everything that comes out of the libertarian/ tea-bagger leadership is nothing but smoke and mirrors, meant to confuse the gullible and good-hearted. The Big Lie.

But what the sum total of their policies leads to is this: A mass transfer money from the poor to the rich, and power from the individual to the corporations.

That is it. That is their one and only goal. Toss in a little right-wing religious tyranny and some gun-toting jackboots hollering about "freedom" and you've got a match made in... well, hell. The brownshirts aren't that far behind. And yes, they ARE that vile.

Hello,

I don't think much of the leadership.

Of the Tea Party.

Of the Libertarian Party.

Of the Republican Party.

Of the Democratic Party.

Their goals never seem to be what they claim.

They never live up to their ideals.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 3:39 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

In that case, don't identify yourself as any of the above, and specifically not as a libertarian or tea-bagger, because then you inevitably (and quite rightly) get tarred with the same brush.

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Saturday, April 9, 2011 10:29 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
In that case, don't identify yourself as any of the above, and specifically not as a libertarian or tea-bagger, because then you inevitably (and quite rightly) get tarred with the same brush.

Hello,

Again, that's like no longer calling myself an American because I don't like the American leadership.

It doesn't work that way. My beliefs of personal liberty more closely align to the Libertarian party than any other I've encountered. Until I found my own political movement, that's where I sit.

And whenever you break out the tar, I'll be here to remind you that Libertarians are not a homogeneous group. We're individuals. That's sort of the point.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 2:47 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?
A several million dollar loan and an "in" thru his mom for a contract with IBM.

You don't even know the history of your own gods.

It's your pettiness and hatred for achievers can be summed up in claiming that having an " in" through his mom is what allowed Gates to achieved what he did ?

It wasn't novel thinking, focus or hard work, right ? Had nothing to do w/ believing in himself, his idea...

ANYONE could have done what he did, right ?

This is a fine example of dismissing excellence and trying to explain away achievement.

And Sig, they're not 'gods'. That's the mental block YOU have in your head that keeps you from truly understanding. They're just like you, only they do more with what they have and that makes YOU feel inferior and small.

You need to stop the hate, and recalculate.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 3:50 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?
A several million dollar loan and an "in" thru his mom for a contract with IBM.

You don't even know the history of your own gods.

It's your pettiness and hatred for achievers can be summed up in claiming that having an " in" through his mom is what allowed Gates to achieved what he did ?

It wasn't novel thinking, focus or hard work, right ? Had nothing to do w/ believing in himself, his idea...

ANYONE could have done what he did, right ?

This is a fine example of dismissing excellence and trying to explain away achievement.

And Sig, they're not 'gods'. That's the mental block YOU have in your head that keeps you from truly understanding. They're just like you, only they do more with what they have and that makes YOU feel inferior and small.

You need to stop the hate, and recalculate.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Apple was established on April 1, 1976 by Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, and Ronald Wayne,[1] to sell the Apple I personal computer kit. They were hand-built by Wozniak[15][16] and first shown to the public at the Homebrew Computer Club.[17] The Apple I was sold as a motherboard (with CPU, RAM, and basic textual-video chips)—less than what is today considered a complete personal computer.[18] The Apple I went on sale in July 1976 and was market-priced at $666.66 ($2,572 in 2011 dollars, adjusted for inflation.)[19][20][21][22][23][24]

Apple was incorporated January 3, 1977[6] without Wayne, who sold his share of the company back to Jobs and Wozniak for $800. Multi-millionaire Mike Markkula provided essential business expertise and funding of $250,000 during the incorporation of Apple.[25][26]

So many lessons in here that it is mind-boggling...hardwork being rewarded with "private investment capitol" not government grants so you can create a "piss Christ". The value of buy and hold...lol. Poor Wayne.

But, something tells me this will all be lost on Rue, er., I mean Sig.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:52 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
So many lessons in here that it is mind-boggling...

The lesson:

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:54 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Again, that's like no longer calling myself an American because I don't like the American leadership. It doesn't work that way. My beliefs of personal liberty more closely align to the Libertarian party than any other I've encountered. Until I found my own political movement, that's where I sit. And whenever you break out the tar, I'll be here to remind you that Libertarians are not a homogeneous group. We're individuals. That's sort of the point.

Tony, it's like saying that you still believe in the fairy tale that they handed out at the door to lure people in, even though you know NOW it was just a story. But you still call yourself a fairyist even though you know the leadership is killing people. The myth you believe in is the one of "personal liberty". Neither the Libertarian Party nor the Tea Party care a rat's-ass about "your" version of "personal liberty", and any idea of an alignment between you and them is purely one-sided.

People have lent their hearts to all kinds of destructive movements for the best of reasons. How many people in Nazi Germany said "I believed in the ideals of the Nazi Party although I think they took some of their programs too far"? How many people during Stalin's era said "I know the Communist Party is killing people but I still believe in the ideal of a classless society"?

-----------------
ANY corrupt movement which manipulates people against their own interests depends on several types of people to power its membership and fill the ranks:

The leaders who know exactly what's going on, who the movement actually serves

The propagandists who spread several "acceptable" versions of the storyline to lure people in

The opportunists who are only looking to rise among the ranks

The "enforcers" who intimidate people both inside and outside of the ranks.

The delusionists who fervently believe in something that will, ultimately, dis-serve them.

The legions of "unwitting dupes" and "fellow travelers" who go along with the parts of the storyline they are comfortable with because they don't care to look too deeply into actuality

The "idealists" who still believe in that nugget of gold buried under all that shit and misery

--------------

Your response is exactly the response they're depending on. Now, personally, I no longer call myself a Democrat, and haven't for about 40 years. But FWIW if you feel the need to label your beliefs, I think that you are closer to anarchism than libertarianism.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:06 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
It wasn't novel thinking, focus or hard work, right ? Had nothing to do w/ believing in himself, his idea...

He didn't even do the PRGRAMMING, so get your story straight, you shit-for-brains.

It was IBM which came up with the idea for a 16-bit personal computer, and contracted Microsoft to make it happen. But Bill Gates didn't have an operating system, so he acquired it from Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products under shady circumstances. It is said that Microsoft also stole the graphical interface (GUI) idea from Apple, but that's not the case: they stole it from .... wait for it... IBM!

And Microsoft has been stealing ideas and killing the originating/ competing companies ever since. There is nothing inventive or productive about this monopoly; it has set the computing world back at least 20 years by flogging it horse's -ass, insecure "great Barrier Reef" software through exclusive (illegal) deals with PC vendors. Fortunately, Linux is taking over.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Kaneman, you're another shit-for-brains. But I think it's sweet that you step in to defend Rappy when you realize that he just unwittingly stepped in a pile of dog doo-doo. Nice of you to help him out. Here's his sneaker: lick it clean for him, ok? Good boy.

AFA Apple is concerned- They stole their operating system from BSD- Berkeley Software Distribution, a re-coded version of Unix which was originally invented by AT&T (Bell Labs).

Another myth... down in flames.

Don't cross swords with me on the history of the computing world, kids. You know nothing.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:43 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Tony, it's like saying that you still believe in the fairy tale that they handed out at the door to lure people in, even though you know NOW it was just a story. But you still call yourself a fairyist even though you know the leadership is killing people.

How many people in Nazi Germany said "I believed in the ideals of the Nazi Party although I think they took some of their programs too far"? How many people during Stalin's era said "I know the Communist Party is killing people but I still believe in the ideal of a classless society"?

-----------------
ANY corrupt movement which manipulates people against their own interests depends on several types of people to power its membership and fill the ranks:

The leaders who know exactly what's going on, who the movement actually serves

The propagandists who spread several "acceptable" versions of the storyline to lure people in

The opportunists who are only looking to rise among the ranks

The "enforcers" who intimidate people both inside and outside of the ranks.

The delusionists who fervently believe in something that will, ultimately, dis-serve them.

The legions of "unwitting dupes" and "fellow travelers" who go along with the parts of the storyline they are comfortable with because they don't care to look too deeply into actuality

The "idealists" who still believe in that nugget of gold buried under all that shit and misery

--------------

Your response is exactly the response they're depending on. Now, personally, I no longer call myself a Democrat, and haven't for about 40 years. But FWIW if you feel the need to label your beliefs, I think that you are closer to anarchism than libertarianism.

Hello,

It's a curious leap from Libertarianism to Nazi apologists. I'm not sure what evils you think Libertarians have accomplished.

As for my beliefs, they stray far from anarchism because I embrace the need for government as a bulwark to protect overall freedom. Anarchists do not feel this way.

I should note that I even stray far from Libertarianism, because I am easily snared by the humanitarian functions of government which fall far outside the Libertarian ideal.

However, and I can't stress this enough: It is exceedingly rare for a member of a political party to follow every precept of that party to the letter.

It would be a bit frightening to me if everyone were required to fall in full lockstep with whatever political movement they supported.

The Libertarian party has a singular requirement for membership:

Since its inception, individuals have been able to join the Libertarian Party by signing their agreement with the organization's membership pledge, which states that the signer does not advocate the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:53 AM

America loves a winner!

Sig,

You can hate on Gates and Microsoft all day long, that's not even remotely the point.

You not liking Microsoft doesn't dismiss what Gates and the private sector have done.

You can play " yeah, but... " for forever, but it still won't change the facts.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Because while that is what the Libertarian Party says, that's not what it does. Failing to accept the reality of what one's support enables is where one becomes an apologist (enabler).

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:00 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because while that is what the Libertarian Party says, that's not what it does. Failing to accept the reality of what one's support enables is where one becomes an apologist (enabler).

Care to cite some examples ?

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:08 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You not liking Microsoft doesn't dismiss what Gates and the private sector have done.You can play " yeah, but... " for forever, but it still won't change the facts.

There you are, moving the goalposts again.

You used Gates as great example of what belief in oneself, private enterprise, and individual hard work can accomplish from nothing, not only creating personal wealth but filling a market need and improving societal efficiency.

Now you find out that Bill Gates (1) wasn't poor (2) stole the original idea (3) didn't do the work (4) stole a bunch of other ideas (5) created a nightmare code and (6) impeded the development of software by years.

So let me acknowledge what he DID: Steal from others and create a monopoly through illegal means to amass a personal fortune. THAT is "what the private sector has done" that should be celebrated????

It's like I said at the beginning of this thread: Getting rich is your goal. You revere the wealthy, not because they improve creativity, efficiency, productivity, development, or anything else , but because they amass world-crushing fortunes by fair means or foul. Thanks for making my point for me- again. You can go back to licking boots after this.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:12 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Care to cite some examples ?

Not for you, because you will deny facts and move goal posts to suit your delusions. I'm not writing TO you, you simpleton. I'm using you as an example- a negative one at that. If Tony asks, I will answer him. If he already knows, he won't bother.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:22 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Care to cite some examples ?
Not for you, because you will deny facts and move goal posts to suit your delusions. I'm not writing to YOU, you simpleton. I'm using you as an example. If Tony asks, I will answer him. If he already knows, he won't bother.

So, you have none. Fine. As I thought.

And as for Gates, I didn't move any post. He IS an example of exactly all I said. You can disparage his accomplishments all day long, but it doesn't change 1 thing. He did it. No one else did. No government agency came up w/ this concept, and no one else implemented it.

I'm sorry, but your personal animosity of Gates doesn't change my view, 1 bit. In fact, it reinforces it.

While you whine and bitch about 'should' and 'would' , he went out and did it. And this only proves MY point. I could come up with any example, and you'd dismiss it, call them a liar, cheater, say they had some unfair advantage..but at the end of the day, they did it, and no one else did.

You're a whiner, and an excuse maker. That's all I'm seeing.

Funny, I also mentioned Oprah. I've heard some less than flattering things about her as well, but I don't see you going after her. I wonder why that is.... hmmm.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:32 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because while that is what the Libertarian Party says, that's not what it does. Failing to accept the reality of what one's support enables is where one becomes an apologist (enabler).

Hello,

But Signy, I don't support them when they do things or submit candidates I don't like. I haven't actually voted for a libertarian candidate in a while. Their candidate for the last presidential cycle was terrible.

My identification as a Libertarian communicates my belief in personal freedom, and the framework necessary to protect it. Being a Libertarian does NOT indicate my endorsement of anyone who puts on a Libertarian name tag. It is akin to identifying yourself as a Humanist even though some Humanists fell far short of the ideal.

You will often see the strongest criticism of Libertarian candidates from within the Libertarian party. Just as some of the best Democrats are happily criticizing Obama right now because of his missteps and failures. Being a Democrat right now doesn't mean "I support Obama right or wrong" any more than being a Libertarian suggests "I support Barr right or wrong," or whoever they are grooming for the next cycle.

I promise that the day an organization surfaces that better communicates my philosophy, I'll trade up. I notably do NOT consider myself a member of the Tea Party because they abandoned some of their most important planks, no longer bothering to pay even lip service to the end of military interventionism and American adventurism abroad. When their central philosophy was eroded, I departed. That happened shortly after the 2008 election.

As for Microsoft and Apple, anyone who doesn't recognize that the pair of them were founded by clever opportunistic crooks hasn't been paying attention. They are poor examples of the American Dream. Most of our inspirational rags to riches stories are about entertainers, not businesspeople. Even then, the stories are often bittersweet.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:41 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
And as for Gates, I didn't move any post. He IS an example of exactly all I said. You can disparage his accomplishments all day long, but it doesn't change 1 thing. He did it... While you whine and bitch about 'should' and 'would'{Oh gosh, my bad. I'm concerned about laws and fairness! -Signy}, he went out and did it.

Ok Rappy, "he did it". He stole to get rich. I acknowledge that as a fact, but you celebrate it. Shall I quote myself?

Quote:
What they {you} truly believe in is naked, unrestrained, cuirass-in-teeth, angry greed. The rich deserve their wealth because getting rich IS the goal, and being poor is the fault of the poor for not being greedy enough, dishonest enough, and vicious enough to "take" what they can, when they can, as much as they can. In other words, they're fascists, or- as they like to call themselves- "libertarians" and "tea baggers".

You took great offense at my characterization, but here you are, proving my point.

I am doing you a great favor by calling you a simpleton. That is assuming that you believe what you believe out of ignorance.

But you're not ignorant. You have in the past been mightily offended when I called you "greedy" and yet here you are: Displaying your reverence of greed for all to see. Everyone else sees you for what you are: An evil person who thinks sociopathy is a great basis for society because it can make SOME people really really really rich {your personal wet dream} EVEN IF it pushes most others into misery and death.

That's you, dude. It's what you support. If you're going to be an asshole, stop expecting people to like you for it. Suck it up and be a man.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:49 AM

America loves a winner!

The 'super rich' amount to only a tiny % of US citizens, and yet you want to obliterate the concepts of freedom and individualism, for everyone , out of pure spite and hatred.

You'd enslave us all to quench your thirst for 'equality' , which is nothing more than everyone being exactly as miserable and bound as the next person.

Like Mal said... what I have ain't much, but it's mine. And it's enough.

To hell to anyone who'd take it from me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:53 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
..and yet you want to obliterate the concepts of freedom and individualism, out of pure spite and hatred.

Actually, I want to ENHANCE the concepts of freedom and individualism. Because I want EVERYONE to be free and individual.. yanno, that whole idea of equality you so readily dismissed at the very beginning of this thread?... Not just those Ayn Rand fictions you jack off to every night.

Yanno what? I got more important things to do besides school you in your own shitiness.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:55 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tony, I'll have to get back with you later. Sorry dude- real life calls.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 6:55 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
..and yet you want to obliterate the concepts of freedom and individualism, out of pure spite and hatred.
Actually, I want to ENHANCE the concepts of freedom and individualism. Because I want EVERYONE to be free and individual.. yanno, that whole idea of equality you so readily dismissed at the very beginning of this thread?... Not just those Ayn Rand fictions you jack off to every night.

Yanno what? I got more important things to do besides school you in your own shitiness.

Wow. You're really one classy broad.

Equality doesn't mean that we're all clones of each other.
You seem to think that , in order to be happy, everyone must have an equal amount of stuff to be 'equal'. That ain't equality.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:01 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

One last comment, then:

Quote:
You seem to think that , in order to be happy, everyone must have an equal amount of stuff to be 'equal'. That ain't equality.

If "stuff" is so unimportant to happiness, Rappy, give it up. Let's base our society on everybody having nothing!

Shit, man, you don't even make sense within your own framework. Not only are you pathologically greedy, you're mentally broken by it.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:17 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
One last comment, then:
Quote:
You seem to think that , in order to be happy, everyone must have an equal amount of stuff to be 'equal'. That ain't equality.
If "stuff" is so unimportant to happiness, Rappy, give it up. Let's base our society on everybody having nothing!

Shit, man, you don't even make sense within your own framework. Not only are you pathologically greedy, you're mentally broken by it.

Again, your class and style shine through.

I'm sorry you're too preoccupied w/ your hatred of freedom to understand. I'm also too busy to even try to educate anyone so hostile to progress and evolution.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Not reading a lot of this, because it's just back-and-forth "neener, neener". But the fact is, Sig is right, Raptor is wrong:

First, Steve Jobs:

Quote:
Jobs was born in San Francisco, California[1] and was adopted by Paul and Clara Jobs (née Hagopian)[23] of Mountain View, California. Jobs attended Cupertino Junior High School and Homestead High School in Cupertino, California,[22] and frequented after-school lectures at the Hewlett-Packard Company in Palo Alto, California. He was soon hired there and worked with Steve Wozniak as a summer employee.[33] In 1972, Jobs graduated from high school and enrolled in Reed College in Portland, Oregon. Although he dropped out after only one semester,[34] he continued auditing classes at Reed, such as one in calligraphy, while sleeping on the floor in friends' rooms, returning Coke bottles for food money, and getting weekly free meals at the local Hare Krishna temple.[16] Jobs later stated, "If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts."[16]

In the autumn of 1974, Jobs returned to California and began attending meetings of the Homebrew Computer Club with Wozniak. He took a job as a technician at Atari, a manufacturer of popular video games, with the primary intent of saving money for a spiritual retreat to India.

Jobs then traveled to India with a Reed College friend (and, later, the first Apple employee), Daniel Kottke, in search of spiritual enlightenment. He came back a Buddhist with his head shaved and wearing traditional Indian clothing.[35][36] During this time, Jobs experimented with psychedelics, calling his LSD experiences "one of the two or three most important things [he had] done in [his] life".[37] He has stated that people around him who did not share his countercultural roots could not fully relate to his thinking.[37]

OMIGAWD, he was a hippie! At least according to some of you.

Then there’s Woz:

Quote:
Stephen Wozniak was born in San Jose, California. Wozniak's father, Jerry, was an engineer for Lockheed. Wozniak caught a lucky break when he picked Silicon Valley's Homestead High for a school. It was near the top engineering companies in the U.S., and it had a well-equipped lab. Four years after Wozniak's graduation, in fact, Homestead would graduate another intelligent entrepreneur in the making, and Wozniak's future business partner, Steve Jobs. In 1970, Wozniak became friends with Steve Jobs, when Jobs had a summer job at the same business where Wozniak was working on a mainframe computer. By 1975, Wozniak withdrew from the University of California, Berkeley and came up with the computer that eventually made him famous and some have compared to a work of art since the hardware, circuit board designs, and operating system was the work solely of Wozniak.[4] With the Apple I design, he and Jobs were largely working to impress other members of the Palo Alto-based Homebrew Computer Club, a local group of electronics hobbyists very interested in computing.

Okay, I grew up in Cupertino (then an unincorporated area of San Jose). I went to Fremont High School; Homestead was our rival, but a richer school with more advantages (obviously, since we had no computer labs!). MOUNTAIN VIEW is a richer area nearby; at the time there were NO blacks living in Mountain View, and very, very few at Fremont High; absolutely NO poor people. There are no ghettos on the Peninsula, the closest being East Palo Alto, just North of Mt. View, and even that is far nicer than any inner-city ghetto. So Jobs’ parents were upper middle class, at the very least. HP is big in Palo Alto, which is even richer than Mt. View (I know, I lived there and could only afford to by having roommates...the lowest-income people there were us “hippies” who lived together in communal houses, and we weren’t poor.

Working as an engineer for Lockheed puts Woz’s dad in the upper-middle-class range, most definitely. It wasn’t “Silicon Valley” back then, it was the “Santa Clara Valley”. Still is, to those of us who grew up there. I always wondered why they chose to headquarter in Cupertino, now I know. To even GO to UC Berserkeley, Woz’s family had to have money...it’s one of the most expensive universities in California.

You tell me how a poor person could “save” the money to go to India, in their entire lifetime! Jobs and Woz both unquestionably had a leg up; which is in NO way discounting any of their ingenuity, imagination, hard work or genius. The point is they STARTED OUT at about the point where any poor person, working hard all their lives, MIGHT be able to end up. So there’s no way you can use any of these people to show that “anyone can do it”, because THEY couldn’t have done it if they hadn’t had the opportunities they did. Hell, they couldn’t even have gotten the schooling to DREAM of computers, much less of building them!

And yes, there is a LOT of background stuff some people know about the wheeling and dealing, stealing and counter-stealing in the computer industry; all those mentioned have had their share of underhanded dealings. I'm not going to spend more time looking it up, but it's there if anyone cares to look.

Raptor, you can say “you got none” because Sig isn’t willing to dig up all the cites and quotes, but it means nothing. We have dug up cites, quotes, facts and figures in SO many arguments, only to have you rationalize, ignore, deny them...why should anyone EVER take a second to try to prove anything to you?? As to your specific query for cites about the Tea Party doing one thing and saying another, I put up a ton of material, but as usual, your game is to ignore all that, demand things be cited all over again while YOU don’t bother to back up much of anything YOU ever claim, then either say “you got nothing” when the person refuses to spend the time (“waste” the time where you’re concerned) digging up all the material to back their points. Some of us realize that it wouldn’t make one whit of difference if we produced all the indisputable facts on earth; you’d still roll right over them like they didn’t exist. So why in hell SHOULD she?

The day you start backing up some of the asinine things YOU claim as “fact”, maybe it will interest us in doing so in response to you. Until then, I cite and quote stuff to make my points on an ISSUE, for others here, and in no way for YOU. In reality, YOU’RE the one who’s “got nothing”.

I ADORE how you manipulate things, it always makes me laugh. “He did it. No one else did. No government agency came up w/ this concept, and no one else implemented it.” That has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that he STARTED OUT ahead of the game, and had advantages on the way which others do not. THAT is the point, which you so love to slide around. “Government agencies” NEVER “come up” with concepts—humans do. Your point has been that “anyone” can do it; our retort has been that only those who START OUT with advantages have any hope of becoming rich. We’ve proven our points, many times over; you’ve done absolutely nothing to prove yours. You got nothing but a lot of

YOU swallowed hook, line and sinker and will never admit isn’t true.

Now Oprah IS a good example. How many more ACTUAL examples of “self-made” people who started out IN POVERTY can you come up with? Not many. Your concept that “anyone can do it” is pure, unadulterated bullshit. Oh, and by the way, I LOVE both Jobs and Woz, and admire what they and Gates did. I in no way diminish their accomplishments, their hard work, ingenuity, imagination, genius or anything else, so you can’t claim I “hate” them. It’s not hate to recognize that someone started out with advantages, it’s merely seeing the truth.

Beyond all that, Sig, you let him play you. Look at what he writes, what he insists in the face of facts...I still think he’s playing us all; I can’t conceive of anyone being THAT close minded when they’re exposed to so much intelligent discourse, DETAILED communication disproving their beloved slogans. It’s just not logical. If I met someone on the street who thinks/talks like he does, I’d recognize they were ignorant and hadn’t actually thought about what they say. But he can’t claim ignorance, so the only two possibilities are he’s just plain stupid and has found ways to hide that by putting the onus on others to prove their points (while managing not to back up any of his own), or he’s smart enough to be an asshole and enjoy coming here to spew out idiocy and then stick to it.

Can’t you see it? Given what you wrote, he comes back with

Quote:
...you want to obliterate the concepts of freedom and individualism, for everyone , out of pure spite and hatred.

You'd enslave us all to quench your thirst for 'equality' , which is nothing more than everyone being exactly as miserable and bound as the next person.

Like Mal said... what I have ain't much, but it's mine. And it's enough.

To hell to anyone who'd take it from me.

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what you’ve written, the points we’ve made, or anything else. It’s just bullshit, and he tosses it out consistently like beads at Mardi Gras! Why would ANYONE take him seriously? I respond and put up facts ‘cuz it’s fun and other people are in the conversation, but I wouldn’t let him goad me, and after a few responses, he’s just boring. I do think it’s amusing how often he tosses out “stupid” and “hate”, visceral words intended to make one react viscerally and be moved off the subject at hand. He’s good, but not good enough, and i the end just a waste of time. I write to/for the others here, and because debating is fun...there’s nothing fun or interesting in what Raptor does. Refuting him once might be fun and educational; beyond that, he's just boring.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:53 AM

Of topical interest, for your edification.

The Genetics Of Tyranny: Psychopathology, Parasitism, and Totalitarianism
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/04/genetics-of-tyranny-psychopatholog
y.html

Understanding this is critical to understanding where the rage is coming from, and why I am stoking the flames with glee, cause the idea of purging and scourging from our society that particular collective of parasitic fucks makes me all warm and fuzzy inside... like I just ate a kitten or something.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:05 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
But the fact is, Sig is right, Raptor is wrong:

That's not the fact. That's your opinion.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:12 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think that any competitive social construct will always reward sociopaths. They tend to be successful in competition, and that success garners adherents due to survival instinct.

I think that is why ideals of socialism prove so attractive to most people on an emotional level, but the realities of implementation can be brutal. Sociopaths frequently find their way quickly to positions of authority in such social constructs. Leadership in any organization is highly attractive to sociopaths, I believe, because it puts them into a position to control people.

It is the rare leader who achieves his position through a moral imperative, rather than a hunger for glory and power over others.

I would guess that Violent Criminal Groups, Corporate High Achievers, Politicians, Law Enforcement Personnel, and Legal professions have the highest population of sociopaths.

Unfortunately, I think that sociopaths have a high degree of success, and that is why they not only fail to disappear, but rather multiply. Those who are not born with the condition may aspire to it, as their apparent success by adopting sociopathy can be as addictive as a drug.

In Lord of the Flies, it was a sociopath and his adherents who won the day and ruled the island, while the human cowered and awaited death.

If there is a way to escape that fate, I want to know.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:30 AM

America loves a winner!

So, if you're a success, you're likely a sociopath?

That figures.

Nothing slides up hill.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 9:57 AM

DREAMTROVE

This sort of analysis always runs into snags.

1) Dollars are not a measure of wealth.
2) Money is not distributed evenly, we have a wealthy elite.
3) Money is a liability, not an asset. Trade barriers are an asset, trade "agreements" are a liability.

Objective wealth I would say on balance, China, second, India. Per capita? Hard to say. Usually Japan

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 10:55 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So, if you're a success, you're likely a sociopath?

That figures.

Nothing slides up hill.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I think there is a higher incidence of sociopaths amongst the categories I mentioned. I think sociopaths compete well, and do well in competitive environments. Part of this success comes from a willingness to do whatever it takes to achieve success, regardless of moral or ethical concerns.

I also see that you have a goose-gander disconnect.

After you made generalizations and assumptions about unsuccessful people, the reverse fills you with disappointment.

What do you think about that? Do you even think about that? Why a blanket condemnation of the unsuccessful, whilst a kneejerk protection of the successful?

Do you really believe that everyone gets what they deserve in this life? Do you believe that every human failure did something to be worthy of their failure, and every human success is a benevolent hard-worker?

Do you truly believe that in your heart?

To me, that describes an ideal world that exists only in fantasy.

My world is much more complicated than that. You won't see me racing to feed the elites to the guillotine, but I don't pretend they are all deserving angels. I can't imagine that any thinking being would come to a different conclusion after a line of rational thought.

What is your line of thought?

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Because while that is what the Libertarian Party says, that's not what it does. Failing to accept the reality of what one's support enables is where one becomes an apologist (enabler).

Hello,

But Signy, I don't support them when they do things or submit candidates I don't like. I haven't actually voted for a libertarian candidate in a while. Their candidate for the last presidential cycle was terrible.

My identification as a Libertarian communicates my belief in personal freedom, and the framework necessary to protect it. Being a Libertarian does NOT indicate my endorsement of anyone who puts on a Libertarian name tag. It is akin to identifying yourself as a Humanist even though some Humanists fell far short of the ideal.

You will often see the strongest criticism of Libertarian candidates from within the Libertarian party. Just as some of the best Democrats are happily criticizing Obama right now because of his missteps and failures. Being a Democrat right now doesn't mean "I support Obama right or wrong" any more than being a Libertarian suggests "I support Barr right or wrong," or whoever they are grooming for the next cycle.

I promise that the day an organization surfaces that better communicates my philosophy, I'll trade up. I notably do NOT consider myself a member of the Tea Party because they abandoned some of their most important planks, no longer bothering to pay even lip service to the end of military interventionism and American adventurism abroad. When their central philosophy was eroded, I departed. That happened shortly after the 2008 election.

As for Microsoft and Apple, anyone who doesn't recognize that the pair of them were founded by clever opportunistic crooks hasn't been paying attention. They are poor examples of the American Dream. Most of our inspirational rags to riches stories are about entertainers, not businesspeople. Even then, the stories are often bittersweet.

--Anthony

I guess what you have been talking about, and where you and Signy seem to be discussing at cross purposes, is the difference between following a philosophy (libertarianism) and supporting a party (the Libertarian Party) - you often find huge differences between the two. Which is why I refuse to join any political party, I never, ever like ALL of their policies or all of their candidates.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 3:14 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"I guess what you have been talking about, and where you and Signy seem to be discussing at cross purposes, is the difference between following a philosophy (libertarianism) and supporting a party (the Libertarian Party) - you often find huge differences between the two. Which is why I refuse to join any political party, I never, ever like ALL of their policies or all of their candidates."

Hello,

That sounds like the expression of a healthy mind. If I believed in everything a political party said and did, from A to Z, I'd have to wonder about myself.

There shouldn't be that level of agreement between that many individuals. The most we should ever aspire to is broad strokes.

Otherwise, I think it means we've surrendered our individuality to a hungry organism.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Unfortunately, I think that sociopaths have a high degree of success, and that is why they not only fail to disappear, but rather multiply. Those who are not born with the condition may aspire to it, as their apparent success by adopting sociopathy can be as addictive as a drug.

Indeed, I once wrote a paper, under a pseudonym, titled Learned Sociopathy as a psychological defense mechanism.

Not well recieved was putting it mildly, apparently it struck one hell of a nerve amongst folk who were trying to dismiss it as inborn and untreatable - at first I was coming at that assbackwards, thinking sociopaths were maybe treatable, till I realized that all of the ones "treated" who displayed improvement, it was NOT inborn, but rather a case of *learned behavior*, the emulation of what is considered by our society to be successful and praiseworthy, which over time can indeed calcify into pretty much the same thing - the only key is that the learned sociopath expresses regret in many subtle, subconscious ways and the born sociopath does not.

It's not the latter I want us to stop producing en-masse, cause we never did in the first place, although if we find a way I'll take that as a bonus - it's the assembly line of learned sociopaths which our social and public education structure has all but drowned our society in, creating a self-perpetuating cycle where THIS is the new "normal" and anything else is aberrant.

Kind of like the notion behind Legend, save that on a long term this is doomed to fail, as the percentage of them increases, eventually they run out of decent people to fleece and abuse, turn on each other, and destroy everything - not to mention civilization in general requires a degree of cooperation antithetical to them.

Of course, the solution is quite, quite simple, in theory if not practice, and rests on only three principles.

1. Stop pyschologically mutilating our young before they're capable of defending themselves.

2. Stop obeying their orders.

3. Stop REWARDING that behavior.

It's really not simpler than that, but our social structure is set up in various ways not to give people a choice, primarily via sinking them in debt and investing them in the-system before they develop enough maturity emotionally, socially, pyschologically, to see it for the trap it is, till it's too late.

And by blockading all development along those lines in order to preserve a status quo which benefits the few at the expense of the many - something which history has shown us time and time again will result in serious bloodshed eventually.

S'why I have taken the tack I have on it - might not be able to prevent that, but I'd like to make damn sure those few don't escape it, cause they'll wait to the last minute to head for the hills, intent on squeezing every last drop they can before they flee, like rats in the grain cellar - and this provides clever folk an opportunity to cut off their escape routes or turn their own protections back upon them.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 5:17 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Beyond all that, Sig, you let him play you.

I don't think so.

Niki, Rappy is irrational and delusional and his justifications and rationalizations trip over each other. (In the interests of being logical, I will demonstrate that in my next post). But what you don't seem to realize is that Rappy is more than just a nut-case, an ignorant fool, or a troll. He is like your next-door neighbor in Weimer Germany grumbling about rich Jew bankers who are making good Germans poor. Rappy provides popular, moral, and financial cover for evil.

You live in a nice place. You don't have any children, and you may feel that whatever happens ...well, your concerns for our country will end in the next decade or two. You're comfortable. So I don't believe that you realize how dangerous the right wing is. I don't mean irrational, petulant, greedy, or any other personal adjective one might apply to an individual. I mean dangerous. Willing to, focused on, and fully funded for changing this nation in ways that you would not recognize except in historical footage from the dark days of Europe.

The House just passed a law that would make "net neutrality" illegal. They would do away with Medicare. The governor of Wisconsin just tried to make collective bargaining illegal. This is not small stuff. This really is war. And it is being waged with malice aforethought against us.

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:35 PM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The 'super rich' amount to only a tiny % of US citizens, and yet you want to obliterate the concepts of freedom and individualism, for everyone , out of pure spite and hatred.

You'd enslave us all to quench your thirst for 'equality' , which is nothing more than everyone being exactly as miserable and bound as the next person.

Like Mal said... what I have ain't much, but it's mine. And it's enough.

To hell to anyone who'd take it from me.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Who argues with this? How? Really?

Kwicko, I formally condemn your mother for not aborting you. Yeah, I'm sure her brother was happy to have a son, but you are inexcusable....

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Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:15 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

As always I agree with things on both sides here, this got really long really fast so I couldn't read all of it.

Anthony, I support your right to identify as being with whatever movement you wish, whether others think you should be afiliated with it or not, its your choice, so call yourself what you choose.

Why does Anthony keep getting put in the same sentence as Nazis? Oh well, I doubt that anyone's answer would satisfy me anyways.

Frem, you always say you identify with Robespierre, but at what point of his story does that identification end? I mean Robespierre decided to invent his own religeon and calendar, tell me you don't support these things and the enforcement of them on a nation. It doesn't sound like you but "I have been fooled before" TJ the manpimp.

:)
And I laughed at Signe and Quicko being the homecoming king and queen of anger. There are a lot of things in life that we can get upset about though and that we should strive to try and change, of course different people have different ideas of what those things are, that's where the disagreement lays.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, April 11, 2011 4:34 AM

Nah, I draw the line at DID do, versus MIGHT do - no sense harming someone for what they might do, that's idiotic (and mostly why I hated one of them crummy X-men movies as they were persecuting Phoenix for might-do, and self-defense actions against their persecution) and it's not like I'd want to be in charge of anything either...

When someone tells you right up front you shouldn't trust them, it's generally a good policy to take them at their word cause they're either already selling you out and want to rationalize it - or in this case they're being completely up front with you, in that their goals and motivations may at some point come into conflict with yours, and in said case they intend to pursue their own even at the expense of yours.

Ergo, I'd be happy to operate the guillotene for ya, but you'd have to find someone else lunatic enough to climb on the throne, cause I want no part of that - especially given that very likely within days of the regime change, if not hours, some abuse or policy is gonna convince me THEY need to go too... one might say it's in my nature.

But it's a damn useful thing all the same, the seat of power should never be safe or comfortable - to make it so leads to all manner of abuses.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, April 11, 2011 5:54 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Tony, this one is for you. You've just had a taste of Rappy's irrationality. What Rappy and Wulf SAY has nothing to do with their real goals. To make matters even worse, they themselves have no idea what they're really doing. So while Wulf can bray all he wants about "freedom" he has absolutely no problem intimidating his fellow citizens with "open carry", taking GREAT pains to explain how it isn't "really" a threat, and then gleefully chortling about intimidating libruls and would-be-criminals (AND, I might add, innocent bystanders). So it's a threat, but it's not a threat?

And Rappy? He will tell you that he's all about freedom, until it comes to torturing suspects, warrantless wiretapping, and permanent preventive detention, and then he's all for it. And those demonstrators in Wisconsin? They had the gall- the gall I tell you!- to "intimidate" the governor by expressing their opinion and "threatening" corporations with boycotts! When I rather pointedly asked Rappy if he would support the demonstrator's right to "open carry" and heckling politicians (a la tea-baggers) he slithered out of that whole discussion like snake.

Unfortunately, Rappy and Wulf are about on-par with the rest of their fellow tea-baggers, who are operating on a rush of fear and the high of dominance, and you would be hard-pressed to find a single contiguous justification in their heads that doesn't wrap around and bite itself. They refuse to dissect their actual motives and actions because they would have to admit they're selfish and frightened and would climb over a pile of drowning people to save themselves. Which is exactly what they're doing.

So in this thread, here is Rappy at his "snakes-in-head" best:

The exculpatory Rappy says

Quote:
And I have to say, I take great exception to the practice of using 'social' Darwinism in pretty much any context.

The real Rappy says

Quote:
The poor work as hard ? Maybe. but do they spend as wise ? Of course not. Part of being 'poor' is making poor choices in life....Poverty is a mental disease.

In other words, the poor aren't poor because of circumstance, they are poor by choice. And

Quote:
I'm also too busy to even try to educate anyone so hostile to progress and evolution.

If that isn't a social Darwinist argument, I don't know what is.

And now, Bill Gates, his shining rags-to-riches example

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What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?...It wasn't novel thinking, focus or hard work, right ? Had nothing to do w/ believing in himself, his idea...

And when shown that Gates had a comfortable background, a loan from his mom and an "in" for a contract with IBM, that the PC wasn't his idea to begin with (it was IBM's) and it wasn't even his programming, Rappy's response?

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You can disparage his accomplishments all day long, but it doesn't change 1 thing. He did it.

Yep, he sure did. He acquired several boatloads of money through theft and illegal practices. I find it heartwarming that Rappy finds Gates' story so inspiring, don't you?

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Monday, April 11, 2011 5:57 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

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My world is much more complicated than that. You won't see me racing to feed the elites to the guillotine, but I don't pretend they are all deserving angels. I can't imagine that any thinking being would come to a different conclusion after a line of rational thought.

And there’s my point. Because he does think that way. Or at least POSTS that he does.

Sig, love, you’re wrong about me. I DO recognize all those things, and I weep for the future. Selfishly, I just hope it won’t get too bad before I’m out of here, but no, I’m WELL aware of how dangerous they are, how horrifying the direction of the country is, and what the potentials are for the future. I feel helpless to change anything, and I TRY not to think too much about it (unless I’m here); again, selfishness...or perhaps self-preservation. If I dwelt on it, I think I would go mad, it’s so insane.

Somehow I have a feeling they got so much power under Bush that they thought maybe they HAD their "permanent majority", and when that got taken away by some upstart, they saw the opportunity to decrease the respect for Presidents via him--because they have, amazingly, in ways this country NEVER would have accepted before--and utilize peoples' subconscious fear and anger to get BACK in power (which they did, to a degree), then push through absolutely as much as possible in the hopes they can keep garnering even more and more control.

I’ve ALWAYS known the “malice aforethought”...so many of the things they’re getting away with NOW have been goals of the right for decades. I just didn’t think they’d ever manage to truly get away with them. The situation under Bush, for me, created such a power grab that it set up what’s happening now, and I think the election of a Black President gave them the opportunity to get away with things they otherwise wouldn’t have. I’m terrified for this country, never doubt it. But I’m not convinced Raptor is for real. I know there are millions who think like what he expresses, but for the most part they’re ignorant. Having been exposed, for so long, to actual facts and sense...well, maybe I’d RATHER believe he’s playing us, that may be, you’re right. But if so, it’s more self-preservation than anything else. In that respect maybe you’re right. Maybe I’m HOPING he’s not for real more than anything else, because he just doesn’t make sense, and his writings are so far “out there”.

Whatever, just never, never believe I don’t fear mightily for this country. I never dreamed I’d see it come to this. I suppose I’m holding out hope the pendulum will swing back in time. But it doesn’t take having kids or being young to see what’s happening NOW and be frightened for America, believe me.

Whether Raptor is one of them or not, I DO know full well that there are many out there who are REAL, and I have watched how they've been manipulated to take away their very freedoms, rights and finances, and I guess have given up hope they'll see the light. In time. Maybe it's already too late, I don't know.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, April 11, 2011 6:10 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

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But I’m not convinced Raptor is for real. I know there are millions who think like what he expresses, but for the most part they’re ignorant.

You haven't talked with many tea-baggers lately, have you? They're not ignorant, they're true believers. For them facts don't matter. For them, any disagreement just pushes them further into delusion, and any "triumph" they can create over facts gives them enough of a dopamine jolt to keep going. Because they truly are addicted to their delusion. There is a pathology going on which mere facts will not dissuade. Not ignorance, Niki.

But people need to realize that now is the time figure out which side of the line they're on. Intellectual rigor, ideological purity, mutual respect, staunch individualism, emotional honesty... that's not going to work here. You're dealing with a bunch of brain-dead zombies who've given their individualism to the tea-bagger party, for whom people dying of poverty is an icon of triumph.

THAT is why I'm so angry. And I'm not angry with them.

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Monday, April 11, 2011 7:56 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh BTW- the reason why I keep bringing up the word "freedom" is because that is the tea-baggers latest slogan. It was handed to them through Americans for Prosperity* organizers. The party followers repeat it almost automatically, with a weird kind of gleam in their eyes, and they have no idea what they're talking about if you try to follow that up. They wind up just like Rappy, or worse, they threaten. (So much for "freedom"!)

Anyway, between "freedom" being their latest buzzword and their belief that the poor are poor because they're lazy and improvident, I'm surprised the tea-baggers haven't quite gotten to "arbeit macht frei" yet.

I'm pointing towards the jungle and trying to tell you there's a leopard there. You may think I'm being alarmist. I obviously don't think so. I try to be realistic, and I hope that my on-point predictions about a variety of trends (from the war in Iraq to the economic meltdown to the nuclear meltdown) have earned me SOME credibility. But I've done all I can to communicate my fears to you. If by now you're not convinced, there is nothing further for me to do.
*A Koch Bros creation.

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Monday, April 11, 2011 11:04 AM