Flaying the poor, revering the wealthy by SignyM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

In other words, the poor aren't poor because of circumstance, they are poor by choice.

All of us are where we are because of the choices we've made in life.

Quote:

And now, Bill Gates, his shining rags-to-riches example
Quote:
What did Bill Gates own, before he started Microsoft ?...It wasn't novel thinking, focus or hard work, right ? Had nothing to do w/ believing in himself, his idea...
And when shown that Gates had a comfortable background, a loan from his mom and an "in" for a contract with IBM, that the PC wasn't his idea to begin with (it was IBM's) and it wasn't even his programming, Rappy's response?
Quote:
You can disparage his accomplishments all day long, but it doesn't change 1 thing. He did it.
Yep, he sure did. He acquired several boatloads of money through theft and illegal practices. I find it heartwarming that Rappy finds Gates' story so inspiring, don't you?

And you keep proving my point. Gates is far more responsible for the up tick in the economy in the 90's than any politician. You say he didn't invent it, so he's just 'lucky', or a crook, right ? BFD. Most great inventions were ideas which had been previously discovered, and then put to use with better packaging, or incorporated in ways totally different than the inventor had conceived... So Gates might be one very successful hack. Fine. Continue to guzzle up the Hatoraide.

That still doesn't take away from my primary point, that the individual, allowed to utilize the freedom innate in all of us, will achieve far more than otherwise by being under the shackles of govt. That's a message most don't want to hear. It's a message that our state educators have been trying to purify out of the school system, and an idea that the Left is horrified of ever catching on in this country.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 11, 2011 6:52 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I have to agree with Professor X in regard to the Phoenix, and not just because he's Capt. Picard either Frem. :) That piece of Jean is just too dangerous, I think the meld or whatever they had in place was good, Jean (who is the main personality) could do her thing without interferance. I know that has absolutely nothing to do with this, but you mentioned it and so I wanted to say something. Oh well.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 11, 2011 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
All of us are where we are because of the choices we've made in life.

So the 10,000 or so people who just died in the recent Japanese horror died because of their choices? I suppose, stupid them, they should not have lived by the ocean/near a nuclear reactor/on a fault line.

Only a true narcisist believes they control the entire universe and that the power of positive thinking will bring them great wealth and happiness.

Yes we have choices, but not about everything and sometimes, probably quite often, we are at the mercy of fate, those things outside of our control.

Some things for you to think about - where people have no/little control

-natural disasters
-developing illnesses that have no lifestyle component
-being born with a disability
-having a child/children with disabilities or chronic health problems
-death of a spouse
-developing a mental illness
-being born into poverty
-being abused as a child
-having a parent with a mental illness
-being caught up in war or armed conflict

and the list goes on. I've listed the ones which may affect someone adversely in their life, but I could also list things like 'being born into wealth' 'being born in a developed country'. When you think about ALL the variables involved, actually, in reality most people's choices are quite limited. What really gives you lots of choices are money and power. Surprise surprise.

For most, MOST people in this world, hard work and having a cheery disposition does not bring great wealth and power. People can work their flaming guts out and still be poor. Visit any poverty stricken area in the world and you will see how hard people work. So your argument that we can all just self actualise ourself into success is bollocks.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 1:33 AM

FREMDFIRMA

I don't buy it, Riona - it's still more or less attempted murder over what someone MIGHT do, and then using their own actions in self-defense to continually justify it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BullyingADragon

Same thing with "Too dangerous" - there's an interesting story to that, but this isn't the time and place for it.

Just because someone CAN do a thing, does not necessarily mean they WILL, and to punish them pre-emptively is against everything the notion of justice entails.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 7:08 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I have to agree with Professor X in regard to the Phoenix, and not just because he's Capt. Picard either Frem. :) That piece of Jean is just too dangerous, I think the meld or whatever they had in place was good, Jean (who is the main personality) could do her thing without interferance. I know that has absolutely nothing to do with this, but you mentioned it and so I wanted to say something. Oh well.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Hello,

Professor X's actions were the expedient and easy solution to the problem. I'm not sure they were the most moral.

And of course, the long story shows that his actions were ineffective. Imprisoning someone forever, without trial, even inside their own mind? It has consequences.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 11:25 AM

America loves a winner!

M -

On the very large scale, think for a second.

Our mere existence itself is the result of incalculable events and circumstances. Not just YOUR existence, but humanity's, life, ... You think the Cosmos gives damn about what we think is 'fair' or not ?

Natural disasters ? Whether a tornado rips through your trailer park, or a tsunami engulfs your village, isn't your choice. I get that. But you live where you do, largely because of the choices you made. Doesn't mean they weren't the right choices, given the info you had, at the time... it just is what it is.

Rattle off as many handicaps you want, it doesn't matter. We ALL have something to over come. Life is always a struggle. And you always have a choice. No matter how much $$ you have.

Those who see themselves as victims, will tend to remain as such.

Maybe they ARE victims. So what ? Is that all they want to be ? Are they going to use that as an excuse, to keep them from raising themselves up ?

" Well, I wanted a better life, but I was born ( fill in excuse ) so I guess I'll just get use to it "

You think it's not fair that someone who was born in a certain situation has to work harder and longer to get to a point where others.

So what ? If they want to do better for themselves, want to achieve, that's just how it is. Whether it's learning how to play an instrument, making a living, becoming a world class athlete... there is no level playing field. Because there's no such thing. It's a hoax, a lie, told to us to make us feel bad when we achieve ( guilt ) , and good when we don't ( sympathy ).

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:04 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yes, slashing the budget WOULD do wonders, but if you listen to this administration, that's the very LAST thing they want.

Obama says that cutting the budget ( money we don't have, and are having to borrow ) would kill the economy. Well now, whose fault is that ? Instead of trying to grow the economy , via the free market, Obama has tried to advance this nation a bunch of cash, all on credit, thinking that the spending 'furry' would ensue, and jump start the economy.

Hasn't worked , has it ?

And look at what a fuss was caused by just wanting to trim the budget, never mind 'slashing'.

The GOP is doing exactly the right, adult, and necessary thing. It's the other side which is blindly clinging to its ideology and paying off its contributors. Party before country, that's the Dem's motto.

And yes, universal health care will destroy this country.

Astounding. If only we'd had the GOP in charge after 9/11! Why, I bet we'd be completely out of debt by now!

Huh. Maybe they weren't "adults" back then, eh?

Starting never-ending wars of choice will be the ruin of this country.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I misunderstood what you meant, I do agree that killing Jean was a bad idea, there must have been something else they could have done to get her back to normal/get the alter put away or back melded or whatever was the case when Jean was regular Jean.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 6:51 AM

MOCKROMANCER

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Yes, slashing the budget WOULD do wonders, but if you listen to this administration, that's the very LAST thing they want.

Obama says that cutting the budget ( money we don't have, and are having to borrow ) would kill the economy. Well now, whose fault is that ? Instead of trying to grow the economy , via the free market, Obama has tried to advance this nation a bunch of cash, all on credit, thinking that the spending 'furry' would ensue, and jump start the economy.

Hasn't worked , has it ?

And look at what a fuss was caused by just wanting to trim the budget, never mind 'slashing'.

The GOP is doing exactly the right, adult, and necessary thing. It's the other side which is blindly clinging to its ideology and paying off its contributors. Party before country, that's the Dem's motto.

And yes, universal health care will destroy this country.

Astounding. If only we'd had the GOP in charge after 9/11! Why, I bet we'd be completely out of debt by now!

Huh. Maybe they weren't "adults" back then, eh?

Starting never-ending wars of choice will be the ruin of this country.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Not ending should-never-have-started wars will be the ruin of this country. Obama 2012

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:14 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I misunderstood what you meant, I do agree that killing Jean was a bad idea, there must have been something else they could have done to get her back to normal/get the alter put away or back melded or whatever was the case when Jean was regular Jean.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Hello,

From the information in the movie, we can not infer which personality was the primary personality. We can only deduce which personality Xavier was more comfortable with.

Indeed, for all we know, the 'Jean' personality was created out of whole cloth so that Xavier could defuse the ticking time bomb.

In no film is Xavier more sinister than in the last. I would not put anything past him.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 10:57 AM

HARDWARE

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I misunderstood what you meant, I do agree that killing Jean was a bad idea, there must have been something else they could have done to get her back to normal/get the alter put away or back melded or whatever was the case when Jean was regular Jean.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Hello,

From the information in the movie, we can not infer which personality was the primary personality. We can only deduce which personality Xavier was more comfortable with.

Indeed, for all we know, the 'Jean' personality was created out of whole cloth so that Xavier could defuse the ticking time bomb.

In no film is Xavier more sinister than in the last. I would not put anything past him.

Sounds like a parallel of an established power going to any lengths to defuse a new, more powerful player in the game. One maybe could draw a line between established US politics and the Tea Party...

I'd like to think it was Jean Grey, not a construct cobbled together by X, that committed suicide rather than let the Phoenix get out of control. It fits better with the Marvel universe's concept that "...with great power comes great responsibility."

Oh, and the real geniuses at Microsoft and Apple were Allen and Wozniak. Both of them were smart enough to take the money and walk when the BS factor started impinging on their quality of life.
In fact, Wozniak is the one guy in either company I admire for the elegance of his solutions. Gate and Jobs both subscribe to the bigger hammer solution. Allen was more a rote programmer type.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

...and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 13, 2011 3:35 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with Hardware about the X Men thing, but the only way to know for sure would be to talk to her parents who raised her most of the way.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Catching up, as usual. Wow, Sig, I’m amazed...I knew there were a certain number of “brain-dead zombies” out there, but from what you said, it sounds like there are more of THOSE than just people who swallowed the party line and don’t know the facts. How depressing... Yeah, I know about Freedom Works, and the others “created” to attract Tea Partiers. It makes smoke come out of my head. I’ll take your word for it; there are certainly at least enough of them to convince “sane” people they’re on the right track, given the midterms. Luckily the Repubs are overstepping the bounds of sanity SO much that hopefully the pendulum will swing away from them enough to bring SOME sanity back to the situation before it’s too late.

Right now what really fries me is that people on the right have the belief that they can say ANYTHING, no matter how insane, and nobody will call them on it. I’m guessing someone here has posted about the latest, that “90% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortion”...when in actuality it’s 3% and when called on it his office said it was “not intended to be a factual statement”. That’s INSANE, to me, and the epitome of just how far they feel free to go. That and the one where “if the Congress passes it, whether Senate does or Obama signs it, it will become law”. It just blows my mind how far they go and nobody seems to care!

Oh, Frem, DO get busy with it...MY biggest fear is they WILL “wreck too much infrastructure socially and physically, and sink civilization itself into a descending spiral.” It’s all so insane...boggles my mind that I thought once Bush was gone, we could get back to some form of sanity, fiscally and really, and instead it’s gotten SO much worse. I never would have believed it if I weren’t living it!

I guess it’s time for me to stop even TRYING to communicate with Raptor. Given the background which clearly shows the advantages Woz, Gates and Jobs had, he still insists

Quote:
the individual, allowed to utilize the freedom innate in all of us, will achieve far more than otherwise by being under the shackles of govt. That's a message most don't want to hear. It's a message that our state educators have been trying to purify out of the school system, and an idea that the Left is horrified of ever catching on in this country.

There’s your use of “freedom”...I wonder what he thinks he means by that? The concept that if we’re all free, we can all achieve The American Dream is so simplistic, stupid and just plain WRONG that any sensible person should be able to realize that there are conditions and circumstances where no freedom in the world will allow EVERYONE to achieve wealth just by utilizing “innate freedom” (what does he MEAN by that anyway? Don’t bother Raptor, it’s a rhetorical question). I guess you’re right, RWA thinking has gone SO far that it’s crowded out intelligence. Scary.

Oh, Magons, how eloquent and right on!

Quote:
Only a true narcisist believes they control the entire universe and that the power of positive thinking will bring them great wealth and happiness.

Yes we have choices, but not about everything and sometimes, probably quite often, we are at the mercy of fate, those things outside of our control.

For someone not to GET it, to me, takes deliberate stupidity. But I guess that’s just the way it is with some people. Thank gawd, not many.

Quote:
But you live where you do, largely because of the choices you made.

For one thing, where can ANYONE live that a natural disaster can’t strike? I’d love to know, because I don’t think there IS such a place. Second, one has to be completely blind to recognize that many millions of people live in places they can’t get out of—-you have to have at least a couple of bucks to leave one place and move to another. It’s laughable that you think people can just CHOOSE where to live; many, many people live where, as she said, they can bust their damned ASSES and not make enough money to leave and try somewhere else. And the most ridiculous thing of all is to think that people born into poverty in, say, Afghanistan or Africa, can just “choose” to move to a developed country! Sure, some can, but most cannot. So “choosing where you live” is an absurd thing to say.

Quote:
Rattle off as many handicaps you want

Riiiight. Like almost every quadriplegic can just pick up and get a good job, or a schizophrenic, or someone in Afghanistan who’s legs were chopped off in an accident. Gawd, what a simplistic world you live in; it’s too bad you don’t have experience of the rest of the world...or maybe it’s for the best, so you can keep your comfortable mentality. Brrrr..

I’ve GOT to get my head around not reading or being tempted to respond to Raptor...he’s just too far into a fantasy world to make contact with, and I need to stop wasting my time!

As to the X-Men thing, that’s another topic so I won’t add my two cents’ worth.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 14, 2011 9:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
M -

On the very large scale, think for a second.

Our mere existence itself is the result of incalculable events and circumstances. Not just YOUR existence, but humanity's, life, ... You think the Cosmos gives damn about what we think is 'fair' or not ?

Who cares what the cosmos thinks. Nature is cruel and unfair, but as humans we don't live naturally, do we? We don't necessarily leave our disabled children out to die, or eat our young, or run around naked.

we are social animals who determine how our society will operate? we can choose to have a very individualistic society, where accumulation of personal wealth is the main goal, we can live in collectives, and many, many different varieties of these types of society. It's about what you think will make a good society.

Personally, I'd rather live somewhere where there wasn't a big gap between rich and poor, where there was some equity in people's access to education, healthcare, housing and employment as well as being some sort of safety net if things get tough for individuals. In that, there could still be plenty of opportunity for people to excel at whatever they chose to do, but that you wouldn't need to live in poverty and hardship just because you've hit hardluck in life.

Quote:
And you always have a choice. No matter how much $$ you have.

well we might all have choices, just often they aren't very good ones, and those choices might not be between choosing a path where we can do really well or choosing a path where we can do really badly, but between doing really badly or dying, or doing pretty poorly and doing just okay. In reality, most people's choices are limited and will depend on the environment you live in. So you'll have different choices if you are born into a upper middle class american family to a goat farmer in the sudan.

Quote:
Those who see themselves as victims, will tend to remain as such.

Maybe they ARE victims. So what ? Is that all they want to be ? Are they going to use that as an excuse, to keep them from raising themselves up ?

But that is what I want people to do, to raise themselves up, to not have to live badly. I just want to make sure that it IS possible for people to do that.

Quote:
" Well, I wanted a better life, but I was born ( fill in excuse ) so I guess I'll just get use to it "

How do you even get that from my argument?

Quote:
So what ? If they want to do better for themselves, want to achieve, that's just how it is. Whether it's learning how to play an instrument, making a living, becoming a world class athlete... there is no level playing field. Because there's no such thing. It's a hoax, a lie, told to us to make us feel bad when we achieve ( guilt ) , and good when we don't ( sympathy ).

Ah yes, the survival of the fittest.... Survive or die. Is that the best you can do? Are you no better than an earhworm?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 14, 2011 10:27 PM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Ah yes, the survival of the fittest.... Survive or die. Is that the best you can do? Are you no better than an earhworm?"

Hello,

A titanic force of will is required to keep from weighing in on that.

I am weak today.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 9:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony: Yer cute!

To address the point seriously,

Quote:
Nature is cruel and unfair, but as humans we don't live naturally, do we? We don't necessarily leave our disabled children out to die, or eat our young, or run around naked.

is a big "yup". But you see, in his world it IS survive or die--you know, "I got mine, fuck you". To ever expect him to grasp the world of greys is simply dreaming...

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 12:52 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

To address the point seriously,
Quote:
Nature is cruel and unfair, but as humans we don't live naturally, do we? We don't necessarily leave our disabled children out to die, or eat our young, or run around naked.
is a big "yup". But you see, in his world it IS survive or die--you know, "I got mine, fuck you". To ever expect him to grasp the world of greys is simply dreaming...

Oh, but humans do exactly that. And it's not in 'MY' world, Niki, but simply how the world is.

Is it more civil to help those in need, feed the hungry and clothe the naked ? Sure. But that isn't the issue. It's not of 'do we do unto others' WITH govt money, or do absolutely nothing at all, and simply make it everyone for themselves.

That's a false choice you on the Left would have us make. Talk about not grasping the world of degrees and shades of grey. That'd be YOU, not I.

The ISSUE here is, how much of MY money do you take , at a point of a gun, and then offer it to others ? Mighty big of you to be so generous with other people's money, now isn't it ? Makes you feel real special and fuzzy, I s'pect, huh?

I'd kinda wish the govt would stop using 'the poor' as an excuse to raid us of our hard earned money. I really do. It's nauseating.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 2:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The ISSUE here is, how much of MY money do you take , at a point of a gun, and then offer it to others ? Mighty big of you to be so generous with other people's money, now isn't it ? Makes you feel real special and fuzzy, I s'pect, huh?

Yanno what? Let's get rid of the whole concept of "money". It's a government-supported invention anyway. Don't believe me? What would happen if the gumbint decided not to raise the debt ceiling, or just move a decimal point to the left on your "money"? What do you think your "money" would be worth then? You are one seriously stoopid, unimaginative, uninformed and un-insightful person.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 2:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

To address the point seriously,
Quote:
Nature is cruel and unfair, but as humans we don't live naturally, do we? We don't necessarily leave our disabled children out to die, or eat our young, or run around naked.
is a big "yup". But you see, in his world it IS survive or die--you know, "I got mine, fuck you". To ever expect him to grasp the world of greys is simply dreaming...

Oh, but humans do exactly that. And it's not in 'MY' world, Niki, but simply how the world is.

Is it more civil to help those in need, feed the hungry and clothe the naked ? Sure. But that isn't the issue. It's not of 'do we do unto others' WITH govt money, or do absolutely nothing at all, and simply make it everyone for themselves.

That's a false choice you on the Left would have us make. Talk about not grasping the world of degrees and shades of grey. That'd be YOU, not I.

The ISSUE here is, how much of MY money do you take , at a point of a gun, and then offer it to others ? Mighty big of you to be so generous with other people's money, now isn't it ? Makes you feel real special and fuzzy, I s'pect, huh?

I'd kinda wish the govt would stop using 'the poor' as an excuse to raid us of our hard earned money. I really do. It's nauseating.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Firstly, YOU decide how your society is going to be. If you want a dog eat dog one, where the disadvantaged remain so, and the wealthy get wealthier, you can decide that is how it is going to be. Or you can decide something different. That's the thing about being human. we shape our world into what we think it can be. There is no natural, or little of it. hence why there are huge differences in how we live. in case you haven't noticed.

secondly, let's be clear. money and wealth is not always hard earned. sometimes it is there. sometimes it is easily gained. you speak in cliches, my son.

the idea is to have a safety net, so even you, if somehow the fates manage to get at you and you fall off your little perch, have somewhere softer to land than splat on a concrete floor, so that you can manage to climb back up to your little tweety bird swing once again and do whatever it is that you feel is useful to society that you do. that is what you taxes should get you (along with roads, hospitals, education etc)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 2:39 PM

double trouble grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 2:48 PM

America loves a winner!

Sig-

You're shifting the issue.

Which naturally comes w/ the childish, petty and completely empty array of insults.

*yawn*

Look, I know you want to paint me as being barely able to learn human speech, because I don't agree with YOU, but if you'd take the time to have a serious, rational discussion...well, that'd be super.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 2:57 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
You're shifting the issue.

No I'm not. You just haven't figured out what I'm saying yet.

Quote:
but if you'd take the time to have a serious, rational discussion...well, that'd be super.

Ok, w/o the insults: Money is a government-supported invention. If you doubt that, what would happen if the debt ceiling were not raised, or the gubmint decided to move the decimal place to the left? What would your "money" be worth then? Anyone who has ever complained about "fiat" currency knows what I'm saying.

What YOU think of as "wealth" is only there because the government wills it. Because it supports your investment in its currency, your notions of incorporation, and your ideas about ownership. Different government, different outcome. One which suddenly leaves you dangling in midair, clinging to your notions as if they were "real" and not some sort of social convention.

AFA "rational" discussion... yeah, let's. When will you start? When YOU will, I will respond.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:03 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

the idea is to have a safety net, so even you, if somehow the fates manage to get at you and you fall off your little perch, have somewhere softer to land than splat on a concrete floor, so that you can manage to climb back up to your little tweety bird swing once again and do whatever it is that you feel is useful to society that you do. that is what you taxes should get you (along with roads, hospitals, education etc)

Wasn't MY idea to set up a Ponzi scheme to delude the public into some sort of 'safety net', which now acts more as a hammock.

If I fall, if any of us fall, why should the govt bail us out ? It makes absolutely no sense. At least, not in a free society.

As for my USE to society ? What an odd way to look at the sum of a person's existence.

IF ONLY my taxes were spent on roads, defense, and the proper functions of govt, instead of NPR, abortions via Planned Parenthood, Cowboy poetry, rain forests studies in IOWA, and a laundry list of nonsensical , idiotic wastes of our tax dollars, if only ALL our money wasn't wasted, what a wonderful life we'd have.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:06 PM

America loves a winner!

Sig -

Valid points, I'm sure, but you're still shifting the issue.

Whether we work for dinars, dollars or shiny polished rocks, isn't the issue. That we use a portion of our life, working at something and then getting compensated for that work, IS the issue. Money = a representation of time spent working. Time from OUR lives. A 50" plasma t.v. isn't just an object, it's also the portion of time it took for us to work in order to earn enough $ to PAY for that item.

In short, I own me. I own MY time. That 'money' I get, from working ? It doesn't belong to the govt, it belongs to ME. Sure, I give some of it up in the form of taxes, in exchange for fire / police protection , roads and highways, national defense...but it shouldn't be all that much more. Sadly, the Left has convinced you and a whole lot of other useful idiots that they can give up their entire life's worth, and be taken care of by big daddy govt.

I do not hold to that view. And will never.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Wasn't MY idea to set up a Ponzi scheme to delude the public into some sort of 'safety net', which now acts more as a hammock.

If I fall, if any of us fall, why should the govt bail us out ? It makes absolutely no sense. At least, not in a free society.

Well plenty of societies think that it does. Makes sense to me and has nothing to do with being free or not.

I think there is little point in trying to have a conversation on this with you. It's like pushing 'go' on a cliche generator. Do you you ever step aside from your clearly ingrained beliefs and try to think a little deeper?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:25 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:Well plenty of societies think that it does. Makes sense to me and has nothing to do with being free or not.

I think there is little point in trying to have a conversation on this with you. It's like pushing 'go' on a cliche generator. Do you you ever step aside from your clearly ingrained beliefs and try to think a little deeper?

I don't care about other societies. If you want to be like them, go live with them. We've forgotten the principles on which this country was founded. Sadly, we're now being told by foreigners of the greatness that the US USE to be, intead of teaching it to our kids and citizens.

What's funny is that YOU think I'm the one not thinking 'deep' here. You're the clinche machine, not I. I use to almost buy into the propaganda you're parroting. It was drilled into me via years of govt schooling, all the way through college. And it damn near stuck... almost. Glad it didn't.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I don't care about other societies. If you want to be like them, go live with them.

I do live with them. Hmmmmmmmmmm, the deep satisfaction of knowing I can get free healthcare any time I need it. Oh yeah, baby, see me bask in all that sugary socialist goodness.

Let's check then, shall we, re the cliche thingee. I'll point out yours if you point out mine. It'll be just like being back at govt school, only this time behind the bike shed.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:37 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
That we use a portion of our life, working at something and then getting compensated for that work, IS the issue. Money = a representation of time spent working. Time from OUR lives. A 50" plasma t.v. isn't just an object, it's also the portion of time it took for us to work in order to earn enough $ to PAY for that item.

In about one step you'll be shaking hands with Karl. Only in his version its profit which robs you of the full value of your time, not the government.

Quote:
At least, not in a free society.

Hmmm... "free" has clearly been beaten into your brain as an automatic response, but you seem to have left off that end word in your mind: "society". When does "society" come into things?

Quote:
If you want to be like them, go live with them.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Clueless! Priceless!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:41 PM

America loves a winner!

Does profit take from you, at the point of a gun ?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Clueless! Priceless!

No, that'd be govt.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Does profit take from you, at the point of a gun ?

Yes. Absofuckinglutely. Are you trying to tell me that negotiating as an individual against an entire corporation is in any way a negotiation of equals???

Why do you think the Wisconsin governor had to call in private security? Because he was a disinterested party in labor negotiations? Because he was willing to let "market" forces play themselves out?

THAT is called fascism.

Aside from that, there is the power of monopolies. Anthony asked that question a few months ago: What is the power that a business might have in addition to guns (private security)? We gave him so many examples, he found it rather distressing.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 3:59 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No answer, of course. So much for "rational discussion"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 4:10 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Does profit take from you, at the point of a gun ?
Yes. Absofuckinglutely. Are you trying to tell me that negotiating as an individual against an entire corporation is in any way a negotiation of equals???

The answer to that question is absofuckinglutely NOT. Only govt has the LEGAL ability to use the point of a gun to compel you to do what IT wants.

Quote:

Why do you think the Wisconsin governor had to call in private security?

Because thugs threatened his and other's lives ? Yeah, that'd be a good reason.

Quote:
Because he was a disinterested party in labor negotiations? Because he was willing to let "market" forces play themselves out?

THAT is called fascism.
That has nothing what so ever to do w/ fascism. Not even going to call that a nice try.

Quote:
Aside from that, there is the power of monopolies. Anthony asked that question a few months ago: What is the power that a business might have in addition to guns (private security)? We gave him so many examples, he found it rather distressing.

Private business has no legal right to use guns, save for self defense. As do we all.

You really don't get this 2nd Amendment thing, do you ? That's twice you brought up 'private security' and for what reason ? As some sort of mini militia ? That can't be it... surely, you don't think that, right ?

Right ?

Oh, and it does nothing for you to try to confuse the issue of private business and the public sector, w/ regards to unions and worker's rights.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 5:36 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Private business has no legal right to use guns, save for self defense.

But they do. Rappy, you know that Scott Walker didn't call in private security for his personal protection. Why do you think that a stupid quip is any sort of stand-in for a rational discussion?

And I noticed that you failed to answer my question: Do you really think that an individual negotiating against an entire corporation is based on any sort of equality?

You seldom talk about anything real. That's why I have virtually no interest in talking to you.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 7:38 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Right now what really fries me is that people on the right have the belief that they can say ANYTHING, no matter how insane, and nobody will call them on it. I’m guessing someone here has posted about the latest, that “90% of what Planned Parenthood does is abortion”...when in actuality it’s 3% and when called on it his office said it was “not intended to be a factual statement”. That’s INSANE, to me, and the epitome of just how far they feel free to go. That and the one where “if the Congress passes it, whether Senate does or Obama signs it, it will become law”. It just blows my mind how far they go and nobody seems to care!

You know that's the Republican Party's official campaign platform now, right? It's going to appear as a disclaimer on every ad and commercial they run. "Republicans: The Party of Fiscal Responsibility. (That was not intended to be a factual statement.)"

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 7:45 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

The ISSUE here is, how much of MY money do you take , at a point of a gun, and then offer it to others ? Mighty big of you to be so generous with other people's money, now isn't it ? Makes you feel real special and fuzzy, I s'pect, huh?

I'd kinda wish the govt would stop using 'the poor' as an excuse to raid us of our hard earned money. I really do. It's nauseating.

You never once raised that "issue" when it was MY money being taken, at the point of a gun, and then offered to others in Iraq and Afghanistan, did you? You were more than willing to be generous with other peoples' money, now weren't you? Made you feel real special and fuzzy, I'm sure, huh?

I kinda wish the government would stop using "the terror" as an excuse to raid us of our hard earned money. I really do. It's nauseating. That you fully supported it, and still do, is even more nauseating. Trillions of tax dollars, pissed away on nothing worth having, and to this day you defend it as a "patriotic" thing to do. Funny that you view killing people in other countries as more patriotic than helping people in your own nation. Oh, wait - that's NOT funny; it's sick and pathetic.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 15, 2011 8:28 PM

Personally I wish MY government would slash its defence budget and put a bit more money into mental health and services for the aged.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:25 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Posted by Rappy:

The ISSUE here is, how much of MY money do you take , at a point of a gun, and then offer it to others ? Mighty big of you to be so generous with other people's money, now isn't it ? Makes you feel real special and fuzzy, I s'pect, huh?

I'd kinda wish the govt would stop using 'the poor' as an excuse to raid us of our hard earned money. I really do. It's nauseating.

You never once raised that "issue" when it was MY money being taken, at the point of a gun, and then offered to others in Iraq and Afghanistan, did you? You were more than willing to be generous with other peoples' money, now weren't you? Made you feel real special and fuzzy, I'm sure, huh?

I kinda wish the government would stop using "the terror" as an excuse to raid us of our hard earned money. I really do. It's nauseating. That you fully supported it, and still do, is even more nauseating. Trillions of tax dollars, pissed away on nothing worth having, and to this day you defend it as a "patriotic" thing to do. Funny that you view killing people in other countries as more patriotic than helping people in your own nation. Oh, wait - that's NOT funny; it's sick and pathetic.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

Hello,

As usual, the question isn't whether someone takes your money from you. The question is WHO takes it, and under WHAT PRETENSE?

The Republicans have no desire to stop stealing your money. Even the Tea Partiers have abandoned that premise with the end of the 2008 election.

They merely wish to steal your money to do the things they believe are important.

Daily, I yearn for a return to the Ron Paul era Tea Party demands: Close overseas military bases, end all wars, bring all troops home, and vastly decrease the size of our military.

Maintaining the U.S. as the world's premier superpower instead of merely maintaining a small military sufficient for defense?

That's something the fiscal conservatives are quite content to rob you blind over.

Inequitable tax practices that allow corporations to evade tax liabilities which citizens are subject to?

That's a bad tax policy that no tea will be spilt over.

There is no spoon.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 16, 2011 10:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Anthony,

You suffer from selective memory.

Yes, smaller govt means also a smaller military, but the 'bring all the troops home, from everywhere' theme was never central to the TEA party folk.

TAXED
ENOUGH
ALREADY

See the clever wording ? TAXES were first and foremost the issue. It's understood that govt relies on taxes to operate, and a govt which is ever expanding in size and power will require/demand more and more taxes. To curb this expansive / intrusive growth, taxes must be held in check.

Ron Paul has an overly idealistic view of retracting our military. And while I agree that much of our military needs to be recalled around the world, including Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, it's folly to think we'll close every single base outside our own borders.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 16, 2011 10:54 AM

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Anthony,

You suffer from selective memory.

Yes, smaller govt means also a smaller military, but the 'bring all the troops home, from everywhere' was never a central theme of the TEA party.

TAXED
ENOUGH
ALREADY

See the clever wording ? TAXES were first and foremost the issue. It's understood that govt relies on taxes to operate, and a govt which is ever expanding in size and power will require/demand more and more taxes. To curb this expansive / intrusive growth, taxes must be held in check.

Ron Paul has an overly idealistic view of retracting our military. And while I agree that much of our military needs to be recalled around the world, including Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, it's folly to think we'll close every single base outside our own borders.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

Hello,

I don't suffer from selective memory. I suffer from remembering too well.

Ron Paul's Tea Parties recognized excessive defense spending and foreign adventurism as some of the primary reasons we are taxed so much. The original Tea Parties were much broader on the policies they addressed than you choose to recall. I have watched the corruption of the Tea Party in agony. It is you who shows a narrow field of vision and poor capacity for recall on this matter.

"it's folly to think we'll close every single base outside our own borders."

Is there some reason we need bases around the world, and yet no one seems to need a military base here?

We have military bases everywhere to counter the Soviet threat, Mr. Raptor, and to police and protect the world. I ask you where the folly is in ending that ridiculous, antiquated, self-imposed mandate?

And if there was some terrible European conflict that required our intervention, are we concerned that all of Europe will deny us their military bases from which to stage counterattacks?

Perhaps you remember the famous incident where England begged for our help but refused to let us station troops on their island?

You have bought into the new selective-focus of the Tea party. You have granted the field to the enemy, while lying to yourself by saying it was never a field of battle to begin with.

Ron Paul, a quaint idealist? Yes. That was the point. That's what we needed.

That's what we've lost. And we didn't lose it after a fight.

We gave it to the highest bidder.

--Anthony

Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

If we were to quit financially supporting the endless, pointless, warfare-welfare mil-industry complex and they're idiotic doomed-to-fail adventures, we would have MORE than enough money to cover the health care of every single person standing on american soil with plenty and more left over for infrastructure, education, and investment in buying our ass back from China besides.

For all the things I bitch about my tax dollars funding, feeding, housing and medically treating people ain't one of em and never has been - cause it's cheap at the price - for Krishnas sake, we could have (even with fuel and distribution costs) feed, clothed and treated every Afghan standing for a hundred years for what we have already spent trying to kill em, and mostly failing to kill the intended ones, while making enemies buy the dozen who'll hate us generationally.

Mercy can be it's own weapon, and it's amazingly effective, certainly more so than indiscriminate slaughter.

As for health care, well as I've said before, there's things that I would VOLUNTARILY help pay for even if taxes were abolished, like infrastructure, needful services, and one of them things is health care for anyone and everyone regardless of need or qualification or citizenship or any other goddamn bloody thing.

Cause the way I feel about it, it should be the humane thing to *DO*, is treat those who need it, PERIOD, no questions asked, in fact I'd go so far as to suggest it oughta be a human right, and we ought to back it up with federally funded scholarships and grants to medical personnel, while using reforms and accountability to cut out a lot of the legal bullshit and profitmongering by operating it wholesale as an at-cost operation, while still paying an effective living wage to those employed because even doctors and nurses gotta eat, yanno.

But no, all I hear is costs and legal requirements and fuckin politics, when IMHO none of those properly should come between human fucking decency and doing the humane thing.

But hoo-rah for the warfare-welfare state and the neo-crusades and kill all those darkie ragheads, right ?

Sociopathic hatred is never so clear as that.

FUCK the budget, we can afford these things, in fact as human beings we can't afford not to, nor can we afford unsustainable violence as a business and social outlet for monsters better off feeding the worms and buzzards than in charge of our society.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:32 PM

Kind of my argument too (I think). I've always maintained that this is a wealthy country, and there is no reason why anyone should go without housing, healthcare, decent education, why any elderly person should be living in poverty. There is money aplenty for that - hell, I don't even care if its funded other than personal taxation - you can shave the top 10% or 20% off mining profits in this country and you could just about fund anything you wanted and leave the rest of us to enjoy our income.

I really don't care how it is done, I just want a guarantee that it will be done, and so far taxes has been the solution. I do want to live somewhere where there is some equity in people's circumnstances, but then I'm probably leaning towards being a collectivist rather than an individualist. Kind of interesting, the culture that was replaced here more or less, Indigenous culture is a collectivist one. One thing that people complain about, racist people that is...'you give a family housing and suddenly all their relatives move in' yeah, because that is what important in some cultures. There is no benefit in one individual doing well unless they can live well with their community around them also sharing in those benefits.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 17, 2011 1:32 PM

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:47 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I just heard an interesting statistic - 2 of 3 people in the US experience stress because they are afraid they won't have enough money to pay the bills.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 17, 2011 6:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Ron Paul, a quaint idealist? Yes. That was the point. That's what we needed.

That's what we've lost. And we didn't lose it after a fight.

We gave it to the highest bidder."

AnthonyT

You claim to not be a naturally honorable person, but it is certainly a value you hold, a goal you strive for, and a language you understand.

You are talking to Rap in a foreign language. Appeals to any sense of honor will be met with complete blank incomprehension, if they register as anything at all. Personal honor is foreign to him. If he ever had an inkling of it, it has been corroded away by his cultivation of his own sense of vengeful entitlement.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 18, 2011 2:45 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
his own sense of vengeful entitlement.

And make no mistake, that's EXACTLY what it is - for all the howling about other folk having such, there's a certain *expectation* of a pat on the head in exchange for licking the jackboot in there.

Which gives me no end of amusement with those types when they get a kick in the chops instead, whine and whinge about it, and then go crawling right back to lick some more, all the while blaming us.

I shouldn't be so amused, but I do have a sadistic streak, when it comes to enablers of tyranny.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 18, 2011 3:36 AM

America loves a winner!

Frem 1kiki

Dunno what planet y'all are on, but you have me so miss ID'd,
I question your cognitive stability.

Are either of you 2 taking medication for a personality disorder/ mental defect?

Just curious. It would explain much.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 18, 2011 4:56 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Son, don't try to play with the big kids. You think I'm taking 'medications'? You think I have a personality disorder? Name the medications. Name that personality disorder. Otherwise you just remind me of a talking dog - trying to mouth the sounds - but not making sense.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 18, 2011 5:10 AM

America loves a winner!

So, you won't deny it, huh?

You can't defend or support your view , so you go ad hominem.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 18, 2011 5:13 AM